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| What should happen? |
| Aces forfeit |
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39% |
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| Game is played during season |
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16% |
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| Game is played on August 20 if there are playoff implications |
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44% |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
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 Posted: 08/07/18 4:44 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| The Aces consulted the union so they had to know this might be the result. |
They consulted the union, but the union seems like they said "You are on your own." Other than giving a little morale support (with 2 of their VPs taking contrary positions) the union didn't really do anything.
I think it ends here with no further statements. No sense in antagonizing the players union when it is spoiling for a fight over the CBA nor in kicking their new gaming partner right after they got in bed together.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
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| Posted: 08/07/18 4:58 pm ::: |
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I think the league should have postponed the game once it was clear that travel issues were prohibitive the night before the game. However, once that didn’t happen, you can’t just have teams deciding whether or not to play a game. So in that sense I get the forfeit decision.
Lost in this is that the scheduling is awful. You shouldn’t have 45 hours between start times for cross country commercial flights, condensed season or not. Suck it up and play a few games on Mondays in a season like this. How much lost revenue could there possibly be? Is that worth the price on players’ bodies?
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/07/18 6:16 pm ::: |
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| A Monday game would draw probably the same as a Tuesday night game, so I don't see the point in eliminating Monday games.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3511
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| Posted: 08/07/18 8:10 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| I kinda feel like travel in this league, and trying to cram 34 games each into under 100 days, create inevitable issues. There's only so much money to smooth the way, and people on all different sides have to make sacrifices. The players often play on limited rest, or on quick turnarounds after travel, and that probably does increase the risk of injury. And they've decided that this particular time was too much. While they have every right to protect themselves, with the league in the condition it is and the rules as they currently exist, I don't think they were in a position to make that decision without there being consequences (like fofeiting the game). |
It's not the schedule, it's the money and the travel restrictions.
The NBA plays 82 regular season games in 175 days, or a game every 2.13 days.
The WNBA plays 34 regular season games in 93 days, or a game every 2.76 days.
If the W were able to charter flights for every game like the NBA, there wouldn't be a travel issue, except for natural disasters.
However, there's still the health and fatigue issue. In contrast to the pro leagues, WCBB plays 29 regular season games in 106 days, or a game every 3.66 days. Players coming into this league aren't used to this kind of schedule, and then when you add in the overseas schedules, the fatigue factor is huge.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 22474
Location: NJ
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| Posted: 08/07/18 8:35 pm ::: |
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| Wings are probably the most happy about the forfeit.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16358
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 08/07/18 9:49 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| They really, really need to make sure they don't get lottery benefit from this. |
Why not ? 1 game would not have changed anything for this teams current status. They lost enough games to still be in the lottery. NY fans just want their spot lol . Fun thought but not happening . |
We'll see. It might be that this game doesn't make a difference. But if they end up tied with in another team in two-year record, or a game worse than another team, that means they get extra ping-pong balls (and some other team gets fewer) because LV chose not to play a game.
Where is the fairness in that? |
You dont think thats stretching it a bit when it comes to a punishment ? |
Of course not.
The may be in a position to get more pingpong balls because they forfeited a game. It's a stretch to suggest that is fair or appropriate.
If that is allowed, what is to keep a team that has been eliminated from the play-offs from forfeiting a game or two strategically to improve their standings?
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3511
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| Posted: 08/07/18 10:06 pm ::: |
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| TBH, I wouldn't be opposed to a rule that says a team loses a ping-pong ball for a no-show forfeit that impacts the lottery, partly because it's a message to the FO that they need to do better with their travel arrangements. However, unless that rule already exists, I don't see how they can impose it on the Aces for this current situation.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
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| Posted: 08/07/18 11:07 pm ::: |
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| In one of the articles it says the players talked to medical professionals, I'd assume that means their athletic trainer and possible the team doctors, does anyone think that depending on how this all shakes out and if there are more penalties given out it could have some negative affects and cause players not to listen to their athletic trainers and in turn put more players health at risk. And it would be interesting to know if the league also consulted the Aces athletic trainers or any athletic trainers or medical professions when making their decisions. Since one of the reasons the players are saying they chose not to play is health it would be prudent for the league to actually reach out to medical professions and understanding what the actual risks were and how were they explained to the players.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 08/08/18 6:44 am ::: |
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| The story was on GMA today.
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 4977
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| Posted: 08/08/18 6:48 am ::: |
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| The Aces Head Coach is getting soft in his advance age, he wasn't around a bunch of softies as a Pistons player who probably would've played the game.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 24349
Location: London
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| Posted: 08/08/18 7:42 am ::: |
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Quoted in a variety of places, Laimbeer's comment was apparently:
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| “Our entire organization has the utmost respect for the very difficult decision our players made, and we stand with them,” said Aces president of basketball operations and head coach Bill Laimbeer. “We are disappointed with the league’s decision, but our focus is now on winning as many games as we can in our drive for our first playoff appearance.” |
So basically not making an issue of it and trying to move on as quickly as possible. Although quietly making the point, once again, that the players made the decision, even if the organisation backs them. |
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CourtsideTix
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 4565
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: 08/08/18 8:44 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Quoted in a variety of places, Laimbeer's comment was apparently:
| Quote: |
| “Our entire organization has the utmost respect for the very difficult decision our players made, and we stand with them,” said Aces president of basketball operations and head coach Bill Laimbeer. “We are disappointed with the league’s decision, but our focus is now on winning as many games as we can in our drive for our first playoff appearance.” |
So basically not making an issue of it and trying to move on as quickly as possible. Although quietly making the point, once again, that the players made the decision, even if the organisation backs them. |
Does anyone really think that if Bill Laimbeer, hardly a shrinking violet, had really, really wanted them to play, they would all have refused to play?
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16358
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 08/08/18 8:59 am ::: |
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| CourtsideTix wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Quoted in a variety of places, Laimbeer's comment was apparently:
| Quote: |
| “Our entire organization has the utmost respect for the very difficult decision our players made, and we stand with them,” said Aces president of basketball operations and head coach Bill Laimbeer. “We are disappointed with the league’s decision, but our focus is now on winning as many games as we can in our drive for our first playoff appearance.” |
So basically not making an issue of it and trying to move on as quickly as possible. Although quietly making the point, once again, that the players made the decision, even if the organisation backs them. |
Does anyone really think that if Bill Laimbeer, hardly a shrinking violet, had really, really wanted them to play, they would all have refused to play? |
The preemptive calls to the Union would suggest to me that the labor (players) and management (including the coach) were not in agreement about what to do.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63763
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:09 am ::: |
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| CourtsideTix wrote: |
| Does anyone really think that if Bill Laimbeer, hardly a shrinking violet, had really, really wanted them to play, they would all have refused to play? |
Yeah, because Laimbeer has most likely figured out that you can’t use a heavy hand against players who think they aren’t being treated with enough respect... and all these players are social media connected. He’d risk losing the team. The team seems to like him, and that’s really an important factor in success in this league.
Look at ATL. The players absolutely LOVE Collen, and it shows.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 24349
Location: London
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:17 am ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| CourtsideTix wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Quoted in a variety of places, Laimbeer's comment was apparently:
| Quote: |
| “Our entire organization has the utmost respect for the very difficult decision our players made, and we stand with them,” said Aces president of basketball operations and head coach Bill Laimbeer. “We are disappointed with the league’s decision, but our focus is now on winning as many games as we can in our drive for our first playoff appearance.” |
So basically not making an issue of it and trying to move on as quickly as possible. Although quietly making the point, once again, that the players made the decision, even if the organisation backs them. |
Does anyone really think that if Bill Laimbeer, hardly a shrinking violet, had really, really wanted them to play, they would all have refused to play? |
The preemptive calls to the Union would suggest to me that the labor (players) and management (including the coach) were not in agreement about what to do. |
I don't think that's necessarily true. The players were about to do something that hadn't been done before, that was against the rules - calling your Union to see what they have to say about that, and what support/advice they can offer, just makes sense.
I tend to think that it probably was the players' idea, but that he did back the move, full in the knowledge that it's much better to have the players on your side than united against you. But if they were a team genuinely fighting for playoff position with a chance at a title - rather than one that would probably be better off in the lottery this season - would he have acted the same way? Who knows. And if he'd actively said to them "This is just how it is in this league. There's some stuff you have to put up with and get over. Get ready to play the damn game." then who knows how it might've gone. My guess is that they all avoided that confrontation. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66900
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:36 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| And if he'd actively said to them "This is just how it is in this league. There's some stuff you have to put up with and get over. Get ready to play the damn game." then who knows how it might've gone. My guess is that they all avoided that confrontation. |
These players don't want to hear about Vickie Johnson and company having to change into their uniforms on the bus on the way to the arena. OTOH, if VJ was still the coach she might have been less sympathetic because she had to put up with worse when she was playing.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
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| Posted: 08/08/18 9:47 am ::: |
Reply |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| I kinda feel like travel in this league, and trying to cram 34 games each into under 100 days, create inevitable issues. There's only so much money to smooth the way, and people on all different sides have to make sacrifices. The players often play on limited rest, or on quick turnarounds after travel, and that probably does increase the risk of injury. And they've decided that this particular time was too much. While they have every right to protect themselves, with the league in the condition it is and the rules as they currently exist, I don't think they were in a position to make that decision without there being consequences (like fofeiting the game). |
It's not the schedule, it's the money and the travel restrictions.
The NBA plays 82 regular season games in 175 days, or a game every 2.13 days.
The WNBA plays 34 regular season games in 93 days, or a game every 2.76 days.
If the W were able to charter flights for every game like the NBA, there wouldn't be a travel issue, except for natural disasters.
However, there's still the health and fatigue issue. In contrast to the pro leagues, WCBB plays 29 regular season games in 106 days, or a game every 3.66 days. Players coming into this league aren't used to this kind of schedule, and then when you add in the overseas schedules, the fatigue factor is huge. |
I agree with most of what you said, but there's scheduling factors too. The NBA doesn't play a balanced schedule like the WNBA does. The Knicks had two west coast trips in six months last season. The first one allowed 3 days off to go from Phoenix to NY. The second one allowed two days off to go from Portland to Milwaukee. With chartered flights. The Liberty have two west coast trips in 3 months. Vegas traveled to the Eastern time zone a ridiculous 3 times in 3 months.
Also, the WNBA attempts to cluster its games on weekends, leading to more condensed travel situations. The Knicks had a couple of annoying back-to-backs (NY to Orlando, Chicago to NY) but with chartered flights at least they know when they'll arrive for the most part. And they probably have pretty expensive car services taking them to their houses when they're traveling back home. Their schedule also featured long stretches in the Eastern time zone.
When you look at the ridiculousness of 3 east coast trips in 3 months by Vegas, a 45-hour turnaround between games twice (including an Indy/NY back-to-back where they had to travel AGAIN after coming from Phoenix), then we're talking travel that even the old-time WNBA players didn't have to experience. The league is culpable in this. It's something that needs to be discussed in the next CBA. And if I'm correct, I believe the balanced schedule and new playoff system (potentially more coast-to-coast travel) were introduced mid-CBA. Meaning travel considerations have changed immensely since the last CBA. That's something that's going to be at the top of the list for players I'm sure.
Honestly, when I looked at this before the season started I was kind of surprised. I figured in the back of my mind there might be travel problems of this type in there somewhere though the thought of a forfeit never occurred to me. As a fan I think I'm conditioned to think the players just accept whatever negative conditions are in their way. That's why I guess I respect them so much. I respect them for taking this stand as well.
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 4977
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:26 am ::: |
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| THE WNBA should go back to East/West Conferences that has 4 playoff teams coming out of each conference instead of trying to squeeze out more playoff teams for Western teams, it will also help alleviate the traveling situation.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12528
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:55 am ::: |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| THE WNBA should go back to East/West Conferences that has 4 playoff teams coming out of each conference instead of trying to squeeze out more playoff teams for Western teams, it will also help alleviate the traveling situation. |
Then risk losing the momentum of your product ? Nah they should keep the format the same .
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:04 am ::: |
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This was a very millenial thing to do. If this team had any veteran leadership, they would've played this game. Period. The End.
This is more of a reflection of our society than anything else.
Shame on the Vegas players. Look no further than what Kevin Anderson did playing that Wimbledon final. Sure, he got rocked by Novak, but he showed up and did himself proud. Now, it's up to Wimbledon to adapt to the players. The Vegas players made themselves look like a bunch of spoiled brats.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66900
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:25 am ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| Shame on the Vegas players. Look no further than what Kevin Anderson did playing that Wimbledon final. Sure, he got rocked by Novak, but he showed up and did himself proud. Now, it's up to Wimbledon to adapt to the players. The Vegas players made themselves look like a bunch of spoiled brats. |
Isn't Anderson also a millennial?
He didn't have to travel, and if his semi-final had finished just four hours before the final there's no chance they would have made him play.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:38 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| Shame on the Vegas players. Look no further than what Kevin Anderson did playing that Wimbledon final. Sure, he got rocked by Novak, but he showed up and did himself proud. Now, it's up to Wimbledon to adapt to the players. The Vegas players made themselves look like a bunch of spoiled brats. |
Isn't Anderson also a millennial?
He didn't have to travel, and if his semi-final had finished just four hours before the final there's no chance they would have made him play. |
Completely different and you know it.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:47 am ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| Shame on the Vegas players. Look no further than what Kevin Anderson did playing that Wimbledon final. Sure, he got rocked by Novak, but he showed up and did himself proud. Now, it's up to Wimbledon to adapt to the players. The Vegas players made themselves look like a bunch of spoiled brats. |
Isn't Anderson also a millennial?
He didn't have to travel, and if his semi-final had finished just four hours before the final there's no chance they would have made him play. |
Completely different and you know it. |
I agree it's completely different. I don't know why you tried to compare them.
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stever
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/08/18 1:37 pm ::: |
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| Watch me refuse to work.
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