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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 11:50 am    ::: I’m a W player. Men won’t stop challenging me to play 1 Reply Reply with quote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/im-a-wnba-player-men-wont-stop-challenging-me-to-play-one-on-one/2018/08/02/2deabeb2-8f6b-11e8-bcd5-9d911c784c38_story.html

Quote:
Why risk what I do for a living to prove myself to a rough-and-tumble nobody, the kind of guy who has probably never played real basketball?



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She hits the nail on the head. Men's attitudes toward women's ball all-too-often go just beyond pure ability/entertainment value. I'll never understand the get-back-in-the-kitchen mentality. If someone doesn't like the sport, whatever. But the need to denigrate...just can't understand it..



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Geez, a whole long article just to say everyday guys (probably on twitter) think they can beat her at basketball, but she won’t take the challenge because she might get hurt and she’s got nothing to prove.

It’s all talk on both sides. Neither side wants to risk getting embarrassed. She’s a very defensive person with some big old walls.



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justinabina



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 1:06 pm    ::: Re: I’m a W player. Men won’t stop challenging me to pla Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/im-a-wnba-player-men-wont-stop-challenging-me-to-play-one-on-one/2018/08/02/2deabeb2-8f6b-11e8-bcd5-9d911c784c38_story.html

Quote:
Why risk what I do for a living to prove myself to a rough-and-tumble nobody, the kind of guy who has probably never played real basketball?


Great article. Appreciate her sense of humour about something that has no doubt been frustrating, irritating, ongoing since she was quite young - and that many players can probably relate to.

Thanks for posting!


justintyme



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Geez, a whole long article just to say everyday guys (probably on twitter) think they can beat her at basketball, but she won’t take the challenge because she might get hurt and she’s got nothing to prove.

It’s all talk on both sides. Neither side wants to risk getting embarrassed. She’s a very defensive person with some big old walls.

Pretty sure you missed the point.

It's not just that people think they can beat her, she is talking about the sick pathology that some men have when it comes to basketball/professional women's sports. Seriously, as she noted, what other profession has random people denigrating professionals? Could you imagine a female surgeon being told by some Twitter rando that they could do that coronary artery bypass better than she could because he took a CPR certification class at his local gym?



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 1:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Geez, a whole long article just to say everyday guys (probably on twitter) think they can beat her at basketball, but she won’t take the challenge because she might get hurt and she’s got nothing to prove.

It’s all talk on both sides. Neither side wants to risk getting embarrassed. She’s a very defensive person with some big old walls.



+1 i actually liked the article but the part where she started talking about her accomplishments as if she led in those situations was hilarious. "High school state champ, 2 time National championships *Lost Both* , 2 time WNBA champion, 2 time overseas champ " Devereaux calm down Laughing



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm sure there are trolls, etc., but there is such a thing as healthy curiousity -- and really, the only way to tell how good a player is, male or female, is to play against them. Then you get a real sense of the quickness, strength and level of play.

Those who have ever played against female D1 and pro players know exactly how good they are, just as playing against a male D1 player or pro -- even if they're not necessarily going all out -- really opens your eyes.

Everyone likes to play against elite players, or celebrities, just to say they have done so. I'm sure there are jerks out there, but there are also guys who just want to know what the league is all about.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 5:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I'm sure there are trolls, etc., but there is such a thing as healthy curiousity -- and really, the only way to tell how good a player is, male or female, is to play against them. Then you get a real sense of the quickness, strength and level of play.

Those who have ever played against female D1 and pro players know exactly how good they are, just as playing against a male D1 player or pro -- even if they're not necessarily going all out -- really opens your eyes.

Everyone likes to play against elite players, or celebrities, just to say they have done so. I'm sure there are jerks out there, but there are also guys who just want to know what the league is all about.


The ones who are simply curious are obviously not the ones this piece was addressed to. I mean surely you aren't trying to equate how NBA stars are treated versus how WNBA ones are. No one is going to ask to play 1 on 1 versus an NBA player (even an end-of-the-bench one) and assume they are going to win, much less "wipe the floor" with them. Yet not a day goes by that some rec league "superstar" doesn't inform a WNBA player that they are going to do just that. Just the base assumption is insulting, and it goes beyond online trolls.

The people who are actually curious are going to approach the WNBA player much more respectfully and with some humility that demonstrates that they appreciate just how much better that WNBA player is than them. The ones she is talking about are the ones demanding to play the game so they can put these "uppity" women in their place and demonstrate their assumed superiority. And of those these players encounter, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority are the later.



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Mojo



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rather than getting caught up in men vs women conversation, I would like to say...
I love love LOVE the WNBA ! ! !
I won't let negativity ruin my day
Love the sport on the court.
Evasive dribble down the middle.
Layup, jump, 3pt, toe the line.
Everyone has a chance to shine.
Defense defense defense.
If the ref make a call against my team
They are just wrong, wrong wrong.
Love my team, my WNBA.
Wouldn't have it any other way.
That's what it all about,
Lovin my WNBA! ! !


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 6:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, there are some curious people. Those people would probably also challenge a pro male player just as quickly. I personally would never presume to ask unless the player was a good friend, but who wouldn't like to experience what it's like to go up against a really great player? People with genuine game would probably relish it even more. These types of people don't discriminate between men and women.

If there's a huge difference between the amount WNBA players are challenged vs. NBA players, then that difference is made up of people who fall into the "get back in the kitchen" mentality. I think WNBA players are wise to avoid accepting challenges from these people. The injury risk is greater against a hostile challenger, never mind one who might get overly physical if his worldview of male superiority is challenged by the outcome.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I'm sure there are trolls, etc., but there is such a thing as healthy curiousity...


I feel like you have a much more charitable opinion of people's motives than most people deserve.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 1:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I'm sure there are trolls, etc., but there is such a thing as healthy curiousity...


I feel like you have a much more charitable opinion of people's motives than most people deserve.


Agreed.



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 1:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
The ones who are simply curious are obviously not the ones this piece was addressed to. I mean surely you aren't trying to equate how NBA stars are treated versus how WNBA ones are. No one is going to ask to play 1 on 1 versus an NBA player (even an end-of-the-bench one) and assume they are going to win, much less "wipe the floor" with them. Yet not a day goes by that some rec league "superstar" doesn't inform a WNBA player that they are going to do just that. Just the base assumption is insulting, and it goes beyond online trolls.

The people who are actually curious are going to approach the WNBA player much more respectfully and with some humility that demonstrates that they appreciate just how much better that WNBA player is than them. The ones she is talking about are the ones demanding to play the game so they can put these "uppity" women in their place and demonstrate their assumed superiority. And of those these players encounter, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority are the later.


Well said.



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 4:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are millions of ignorant misguided complete assholes of both sexes lurking everywhere who try to assuage their own insecurities, weakness, prejudices, failures etc. by jealously and/or enviously challenging, berating and bigoting others. Taking these people seriously is unhealthy and it gives them a modest self-sense of credibility. There are several perpetrators on this website who cherish some of these same behaviors and the most effective way to discourage/reduce these defective behaviors is to ignore them in lieu of encouraging them by giving them a stance by responding to them.

People who cling to, continuously bring up and like to complain about these debilitating psychiatric behaviors symptomatically suffer from the same insecurities and defective behaviors as the perpetrators. These people too need to take a close look at themselves and try to make amends/changes to their own psyches, prejudices, beliefs and behaviors. Recognizing these behaviors and taking the appropriate positive remedies will help both them and the perpetrators to curtail or correct these unhealthy actions.

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


justinabina



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 7:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?


justintyme



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?

My thoughts exactly. Telling someone to just "get over" what has to be an infuriating cultural failing seems unfair at the least. These comments and assumptions made by these "millions of misguided complete assholes" shape the views of others when they are left to themselves. The idea that a rec league caliber male player could beat professional women is not some abnormal, quaint belief held onto by a few Neanderthals, it is actually the prevalent assumption in many places. And when the same thing is heard over and over people begin to believe it is the truth.

Wanting to counter that does not stem from insecurity, but rather trying to fight the good fight to make our culture better. And one of the best ways out there is to counter these tired old narratives.



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 11:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?

My thoughts exactly. Telling someone to just "get over" what has to be an infuriating cultural failing seems unfair at the least. These comments and assumptions made by these "millions of misguided complete assholes" shape the views of others when they are left to themselves. The idea that a rec league caliber male player could beat professional women is not some abnormal, quaint belief held onto by a few Neanderthals, it is actually the prevalent assumption in many places. And when the same thing is heard over and over people begin to believe it is the truth.

Wanting to counter that does not stem from insecurity, but rather trying to fight the good fight to make our culture better. And one of the best ways out there is to counter these tired old narratives.


I admire everyone who fights "the good fight" against any form of bias, bigotry, and discrimination.



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hyperetic



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 1:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Truth, plain and simple. Even male college athletes that play pickup games put their potential livelihood on the line against guys that just wanna show them up or for their own self-esteem issues. The fouls are harder. The undercutting is more frequent. The aggressiveness can get to an off the charts level. Now add to that chauvinistic, man-baby issues and its a recipe for disaster.
calbearman76



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?



Her article may not show insecurity, but it does show annoyance, and so I agree that Peters should get over it. She is complaining about her situation when she needn't prove herself or even react. I have my own complaints about the way I am sometimes treated by people who nothing of who I am, and while it may bother me I wouldn't write about it in the Washington Post.

It is never a good look to play the victim and at least in this article she comes off that way. Be thankful for your skill and your success because I know there are many women who would love to have those same men say ANYTHING to them. You can always choose not to engage.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?



Her article may not show insecurity, but it does show annoyance, and so I agree that Peters should get over it. She is complaining about her situation when she needn't prove herself or even react. I have my own complaints about the way I am sometimes treated by people who nothing of who I am, and while it may bother me I wouldn't write about it in the Washington Post.

It is never a good look to play the victim and at least in this article she comes off that way. Be thankful for your skill and your success because I know there are many women who would love to have those same men say ANYTHING to them. You can always choose not to engage.

Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?



Her article may not show insecurity, but it does show annoyance, and so I agree that Peters should get over it. She is complaining about her situation when she needn't prove herself or even react. I have my own complaints about the way I am sometimes treated by people who nothing of who I am, and while it may bother me I wouldn't write about it in the Washington Post.

It is never a good look to play the victim and at least in this article she comes off that way. Be thankful for your skill and your success because I know there are many women who would love to have those same men say ANYTHING to them. You can always choose not to engage.


Do people come up to you on the street and challenge you?



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way.


Absolutely right. Totally with you. And with Ms. Peters.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 11:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way.


Absolutely right. Totally with you. And with Ms. Peters.


If she truly feels that way get a new career. She is tall, I get it. But she doesn't need to engage a challenge. There are lots of jerks in the world; deal with them or ignore them. If you don't It seems like some of her issues sound like they revolve around people she might be trying to get to know but who don't respect her or her profession. Move on.

I am a big fan of the WNBA. I've traveled to 11 different cities to see games. I have driven over 50,000 miles in the past 20 years to see WBB. I probably never would have gone to Tulsa except for the Shock playing there. I have the utmost respect for WNBA players and wish the League was more successful so they could be paid more. But even if they only make 1.5% of what NBA players make they make 150% of the average salary in the US. And they do so in 4 months.

This article comes off to me as whining because even if she has to put up with some jerks she is better off than most. I am not saying she is as bad as the men that are challenging her. I am just saying she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
If she truly feels that way get a new career. She is tall, I get it. But she doesn't need to engage a challenge. There are lots of jerks in the world; deal with them or ignore them.

You sound like somebody with three followers on Twitter asking someone with, like, 250K why they don't just ignore their trolls? Because volume (or lack thereof) makes it easier for some people than for others. It's not as if ignoring jerks makes them stop harassing you; that's not generally how jerks operate.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way.


Absolutely right. Totally with you. And with Ms. Peters.


If she truly feels that way get a new career. She is tall, I get it. But she doesn't need to engage a challenge. There are lots of jerks in the world; deal with them or ignore them. If you don't It seems like some of her issues sound like they revolve around people she might be trying to get to know but who don't respect her or her profession. Move on.

I am a big fan of the WNBA. I've traveled to 11 different cities to see games. I have driven over 50,000 miles in the past 20 years to see WBB. I probably never would have gone to Tulsa except for the Shock playing there. I have the utmost respect for WNBA players and wish the League was more successful so they could be paid more. But even if they only make 1.5% of what NBA players make they make 150% of the average salary in the US. And they do so in 4 months.

This article comes off to me as whining because even if she has to put up with some jerks she is better off than most. I am not saying she is as bad as the men that are challenging her. I am just saying she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance.

Whining?
I'm totally not on your wavelength about what you are reading into that piece of hers, so I can't really respond any further to your post.

All I will add is that within the community of WNBA players, coaches, media & fans, things are mostly fairly supportive and understanding, and we follow these players and this league wondering why it isn't more popular, and wishing it could be, so that these athletes who are the best in the world at what they do could earn more, and then have a playing calendar that allows them to be even better rather than permanently banged up.
But every time a story gets any kind of mainstream exposure, it's a deluge of insecure, immature douchebags who make up a disturbing proportion of the response. For no other reason than these are female rather than male players. That's disheartening enough for privileged male me to look at from a distance, so I can only imagine what it's like for someone who reads & hears this crap every freakin day.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 12:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 2:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with.



I have never met her. I am male. And since you chose to capitalize the word "KNOWS," please realize I didn't use the word. I said she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance, in the same way that I would say that about many other people who come off as whining about something that annoys them but which is presumably out of her control. It is clearly my opinion, and to read it otherwise is unnecessarily argumentative. She can choose to allow this to bother her or she can choose to ignore it. Writing this column means she has not chosen to ignore it. But I will make this small change.

I believe that she would be better served to not complain about this type of annoyance. Hopefully the column was her way of making a statement that will allow her to do so. Otherwise she is allowing those jerks to upset her, and they are not worth it.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 2:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hey females, are you being disrespected and treated unfairly just because of your gender?
Just shut up and the problem goes away. (See, the problem isn't all the unfair treatment, it is you being high maintenance about it, having no sense of humour about it, being a bitch about it, etc. Us men are getting kinda tired of having to hear about it)

So IMO there is merit in cal's "don't let them get to you" advice, but there's also merit in speaking up, because failing to do so will 100% guarantee that things don't change.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 7:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Hey females, are you being disrespected and treated unfairly just because of your gender?
Just shut up and the problem goes away. (See, the problem isn't all the unfair treatment, it is you being high maintenance about it, having no sense of humour about it, being a bitch about it, etc. Us men are getting kinda tired of having to hear about it)

So IMO there is merit in cal's "don't let them get to you" advice, but there's also merit in speaking up, because failing to do so will 100% guarantee that things don't change.


And compairing what they earn with the average of a country is not really a good comparison. This is not some sort of hobby. They are the best in the world in what they do



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 9:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A certain amount of "harassment," for lack of a better word, comes with almost every profession, from journalist to auto repair to professional basketball.

The fact that people are interested in her job and her skills is not what I would call a negative, but maybe the tone and attitude of the people coming up to her is really annoying.

Still, as a journalist and a coach, I've dealt with a lot of such stuff, and it comes with the territory. I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but I don't know that I'd write about it either.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 9:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You really think your personal experience is comparable to hers though?
And that "harassment" comment just seems way off the mark to me FWIW.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 9:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
A certain amount of "harassment," for lack of a better word, comes with almost every profession, from journalist to auto repair to professional basketball.

I'd argue that the disconnect is over what should and should not be considered tolerable levels of "a certain amount" of harassment. Mileage may vary on that but, I'll tell you what, and I'll die on this hill, the arbiter of what level of harassment should be considered tolerable must not be the harasser.

Quote:
The fact that people are interested in her job and her skills is not what I would call a negative...
It's not inherently a negative but, again, that requires taking people at face value, and assuming that every (or even most) of the so-called "interested" parties are approaching these women in good faith. I am disinclined to give these people that much benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
Still, as a journalist and a coach, I've dealt with a lot of such stuff, and it comes with the territory.
Translation: I had to put up with bullshit, so you should, too. What happened to wanting our kids to have it better than we had it?



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sometimes you have to put up with a certain amount of bullshit so you can spend your time fighting the battles that really matter. I'd call this issue bullshit and not an important battle, but then again, I don't walk in her shoes.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Sometimes you have to put up with a certain amount of bullshit so you can spend your time fighting the battles that really matter...

Stipulating, for the sake of argument, that I agreed that this is not a battle that "really matters" (I don't agree, but alas), it still begs the question of who gets to decide how much bullshit one should expect to have to put up with?

It goes back to that Twitter example I used earlier: it's real easy for someone who may have to deal with one jackass a week to tell the person who has to deal with a hundred jackasses a day that they should just "put up with it."



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe Devereaux Peters can call Howard Stern have another televised 1-on-1 match vs Artie Lange in Las Vegas... Idea

    <iframe width="350" height="288" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4yZN25lXb-Q?start=2221" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    Graby serves up Stern lesson to male comic

    Apr 26, 2003: “I was really concerned that I wasn’t going to win,” said Graby, a sales representative for Eglomise Designs in Devens, Mass. “I won a scholarship from a women’s sports foundation. I couldn’t lose to a fat slob who had a drug problem. What kind of an example would that have set? I’m trying to be a positive example for young boys and girls.”

    Graby tried everything to stop Lange. A hand in his face was useless. So, Graby pulled down his pants during a shot. Lange still swished it and led 12-5 before Graby rallied.

    Lange’s proclamation on an April — show inspired Graby. She called the show that day and showed up two days later at K-Rock’s offices in New York. She called the show from the lobby. Stern let Graby into the studio, where she was a guest for about 30 minutes.

    Stern flew her and five relatives and friends to Vegas this week and put them up at The Hard Rock.

    http://www.recordonline.com/article/20030426/sports/304269981



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's really depressing how many comments here--at least some from men, probably many--simply will not face the meaning of gender, sexism, and misogyny in our culture and others.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 11:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

>I'd argue that the disconnect is over what should and should not be considered tolerable levels of "a certain amount" of harassment. Mileage may vary on that but, I'll tell you what, and I'll die on this hill, the arbiter of what level of harassment should be considered tolerable must not be the harasser.

Of course. Some of the people who approach us are jerks. Some are not.

>It's not inherently a negative but, again, that requires taking people at face value, and assuming that every (or even most) of the so-called "interested" parties are approaching these women in good faith. I am disinclined to give these people that much benefit of the doubt.

This is more a question of how an individual looks at the world. Some view strangers as intruders at best and dangers at worst; others look at people in a more positive light, and assume the best, given the circumstances.

>Translation: I had to put up with bullshit, so you should, too. What happened to wanting our kids to have it better than we had it?

So many, if not most, times I've dealt with strangers and/or people who had an interest in my profession or what I'd written or why I didn't play their daughter have been fine. Communication occurred in a somewhat positive manner.

Other times, things did not go as well, but I think the question is whether the negative outweighs the positive.

Clearly, she feels that most of it is negative, and it bothers her. That's fine, but again, I don't think she can know the motivations of those people who approach her, and though she can assume the worst, it might not always be true, or even true most of the time. So complaining publicly about people interested in the WNBA and women's basketball just doesn't seem justified to me. (Now if there are verbal assaults, different story ... but saying "Hey, I'd like to play you one-on-one" doesn't necessarily qualify as an assault.)



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 11:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It might not qualify as an "assault," but it absolutely qualifies as a microaggression. And people's opinions of how bothersome microaggressions are tend to be informed by how often they have to deal with them.

RE: not knowing other people's motives, of course you can't. None of us can read minds. But, as I said already, you appear to be way more disposed to giving the benefit of the doubt that I am.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is disheartening - kind of heartbreaking, to be honest, if familiar - to read several posts dismissing Peters' experiences, even though she is not the only player to have voiced frustration with misogyny in various forms. But it is a reminder that it is easier for people who don't deal with misogyny (in ways both little and large) to dismiss it. It really isn't possible to communicate to everyone that even small instances of casual sexism, like online comments about going back to the kitchen, are still painful, even when they're predictable and therefore something women should supposedly be able to ignore, especially if they lead seemingly "comfortable" and class-privileged lives.

I wish people would see that attitudes & stereotypes, including the apparently innocuous, are deeply connected to more explicit institutionalized acts of discrimination. That there is a symbiotic (ugh, for lack of a better word) relationship between those things.

And I wish that people would try to consider that speaking out against attitudes that have been perpetually frustrating and hurtful could, in fact, be the most assertive way to respond to them.

I can only hope that there is a time when enough WNBA players have spoken out about pay inequality, about disrespect from online trolls, about simply wanting to be taken seriously by the mainstream - that some of the posters in this thread will finally believe them. Or at least try to look at the world from their perspectives.

By the way, if you haven't seen it before and are curious, here is a thoughtful article from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about misogyny in sports: http://time.com/2853780/kareem-abdul-jabbar-we-need-to-stamp-out-misogyny-in-sports/

I think I may have first come across that article on this very forum. I've used it in classroom discussions over the years. Many of the boys in my classes are quick to dismiss female sports and female athletes and laugh about the WNBA - but then are impressed when, as part of the discussion, we look at clips of WNBA athletes in action. Some of them continue to wonder what the big deal is. Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justinabina wrote:
It is disheartening - kind of heartbreaking, to be honest, if familiar - to read several posts dismissing Peters' experiences, even though she is not the only player to have voiced frustration with misogyny in various forms. But it is a reminder that it is easier for people who don't deal with misogyny (in ways both little and large) to dismiss it. It really isn't possible to communicate to everyone that even small instances of casual sexism, like online comments about going back to the kitchen, are still painful, even when they're predictable and therefore something women should supposedly be able to ignore, especially if they lead seemingly "comfortable" and class-privileged lives.

I wish people would see that attitudes & stereotypes, including the apparently innocuous, are deeply connected to more explicit institutionalized acts of discrimination. That there is a symbiotic (ugh, for lack of a better word) relationship between those things.

And I wish that people would try to consider that speaking out against attitudes that have been perpetually frustrating and hurtful could, in fact, be the most assertive way to respond to them.

I can only hope that there is a time when enough WNBA players have spoken out about pay inequality, about disrespect from online trolls, about simply wanting to be taken seriously by the mainstream - that some of the posters in this thread will finally believe them. Or at least try to look at the world from their perspectives.

By the way, if you haven't seen it before and are curious, here is a thoughtful article from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about misogyny in sports: http://time.com/2853780/kareem-abdul-jabbar-we-need-to-stamp-out-misogyny-in-sports/

I think I may have first come across that article on this very forum. I've used it in classroom discussions over the years. Many of the boys in my classes are quick to dismiss female sports and female athletes and laugh about the WNBA - but then are impressed when, as part of the discussion, we look at clips of WNBA athletes in action. Some of them continue to wonder what the big deal is. Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.


I completely agree with all you've written here. How wonderful that you've used Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's valuable article in your classes to raise issues about misogyny in sports. We need many more teachers like you, everywhere from preschool to universities.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 1:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:

>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.

There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA.

I'm not saying Peters or anyone should do it, or WNBA players should play pickup with guys whenever possible, but there's nothing like seeing an elite female athlete up close to make their skill level palpable.

Those who are lucky enough to sit courtside at WNBA games know what I mean: The game from a few feet away is incredibly physical and athletic; on TV, it's nowhere close to the reality.

Imagine playing against a Sylvia Fowles or Sue Bird or Devereaux Peters -- how much more would you appreciate the level of play in the WNBA?



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 1:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the article also highlights an important point. Sexism in of itself plays a large part in the attitude described by Devereaux Peters. It isn’t about the basketball ability of the players on its own merit. To me that’s terribly frustrating. The general attitude of these types against the WNBA is more about false beliefs than reality.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 2:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
justinabina wrote:
RavenDog wrote:

Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on.


I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity?



Her article may not show insecurity, but it does show annoyance, and so I agree that Peters should get over it. She is complaining about her situation when she needn't prove herself or even react. I have my own complaints about the way I am sometimes treated by people who nothing of who I am, and while it may bother me I wouldn't write about it in the Washington Post.

It is never a good look to play the victim and at least in this article she comes off that way. Be thankful for your skill and your success because I know there are many women who would love to have those same men say ANYTHING to them. You can always choose not to engage.

Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way.


X_______________

The “ignore the haters and trolls” mentality is never helpful, anywhere. If you don’t speak out, the only voices heard are the “haters and trolls.”



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:

>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.

There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA.


I think what would be even more effective at eliminating ignorance is if men, especially fans of the game, would agree that when a female athlete states she is tired of sexist attitudes about her abilities, she is telling the truth about her experiences, and her experiences are a consequence of wider spread misogyny. And having those same men teach young boys, Yes, there is sexism in this world, here is an example of it, and here is how to avoid contributing to it, so that we can continue erasing it.

To me, this is a much more effective method than hoping that WNBA players will agree to one-on-ones with men - it's likelier to reach many more people, since there aren't very many WNBA players, and they're quite busy with their jobs and overseas commitments. We're all in this together. We can all help.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 4:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
It might not qualify as an "assault," but it absolutely qualifies as a microaggression. And people's opinions of how bothersome microaggressions are tend to be informed by how often they have to deal with them.

RE: not knowing other people's motives, of course you can't. None of us can read minds. But, as I said already, you appear to be way more disposed to giving the benefit of the doubt that I am.


I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful. Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining. Of course that means that I will sometimes let things go that come back to bite me, but overall I believe that is a better way to live.

The tall, physically-imposing, black woman certainly faces challenges in a society that generally rewards other characteristics. It isn't fair that a tall, physically imposing white man doesn't face the same challenges.

But to get back to Ms. Peters, do you believe that the men she is criticizing are going to read this column and have an epiphany. I can assure you I am far more liberal than most people but this still comes off to me as whining. So what exactly does she gain by writing it? She is annoyed. If I met her I won't challenge her to a 1-on-1 on the court, but I wouldn't have before. And for the record if we did play I would lose. Bad.


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PostPosted: 08/04/18 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justinabina wrote:
ClayK wrote:
We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:

>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.

There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA.


I think what would be even more effective at eliminating ignorance is if men, especially fans of the game, would agree that when a female athlete states she is tired of sexist attitudes about her abilities, she is telling the truth about her experiences, and her experiences are a consequence of wider spread misogyny. And having those same men teach young boys, Yes, there is sexism in this world, here is an example of it, and here is how to avoid contributing to it, so that we can continue erasing it.

To me, this is a much more effective method than hoping that WNBA players will agree to one-on-ones with men - it's likelier to reach many more people, since there aren't very many WNBA players, and they're quite busy with their jobs and overseas commitments. We're all in this together. We can all help.


Yes.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful.

Do you, then. I'm a believer in "When people tell you who they are, believe them." Like, I can't remember where I heard it first, but if someone is asking questions, they might be sincere; if someone is "just asking questions," they're almost definitely not. After a while, you tend to become sensitive to the way in which people express their "interest."

Quote:
Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining.

A whole lot of privilege coming off of this statement. Also, referring to microagressions as "whining" is really just another way of saying that you don't have any empathy for the people who are subject to them.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful.

Do you, then. I'm a believer in "When people tell you who they are, believe them." Like, I can't remember where I heard it first, but if someone is asking questions, they might be sincere; if someone is "just asking questions," they're almost definitely not. After a while, you tend to become sensitive to the way in which people express their "interest."

Quote:
Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining.

A whole lot of privilege coming off of this statement. Also, referring to microagressions as "whining" is really just another way of saying that you don't have any empathy for the people who are subject to them.


I find the repeated use of "whining" here to be really outrageous. People facing bias, discrimination, oppression, are always supposed to shut up. And way too many men always want women to shut up.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 7:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.

What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly.



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with.



I have never met her. I am male. And since you chose to capitalize the word "KNOWS," please realize I didn't use the word. I said she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance, in the same way that I would say that about many other people who come off as whining about something that annoys them but which is presumably out of her control. It is clearly my opinion, and to read it otherwise is unnecessarily argumentative. She can choose to allow this to bother her or she can choose to ignore it. Writing this column means she has not chosen to ignore it. But I will make this small change.

I believe that she would be better served to not complain about this type of annoyance. Hopefully the column was her way of making a statement that will allow her to do so. Otherwise she is allowing those jerks to upset her, and they are not worth it.


First off, going beyond the absolute victim-blaming, you are completely ignoring the whole point she is trying to make an, in fact, kind of proving it.

calbearman76 wrote:
Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful.


While the intent might be benign, the action is inherently disrespectful. And the fact that some people *cough* don't see HOW that is disrespectful, the the issue she is trying to point out here.

You're essentially saying that it is a woman's role to not react to disrespect, without holding the man accountable for his actions in the first place.

"If she didn't want to get raped, she wouldn't have gotten drunk!" Right?




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