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StevenHW
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Carol Anne
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 Posted: 07/21/18 4:28 pm ::: Re: WNBA-NBA wage gap is about economics, not gender |
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Matt Calkins is a sports columnist for the Seattle Times. When he deigns to write about women's basketball (college or pro) he damns with faint praise and condescends. How will women athletes ever get better conditions or pay if they don't press for them?
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myrtle
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| Posted: 07/21/18 4:48 pm ::: |
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| While it's (economics) true to a certain extent, it's like other types of discrimination in that the economic aspect is a result of the previous centuries of discrimination, It's the old - what comes first, the chicken or the egg conundrum. As an oldie, I think it's so cool that these young ladies have an opportunity that wasn't available in my day. At the same time I can understand their frustration about the inequality. There is a balance to be found, but it's a precarious balance. It's pretty clear that it won't change overnight, but yes, there needs to be continual movement toward the goal.
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jap
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| Posted: 07/21/18 5:01 pm ::: |
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| In general, USA males do not appreciate female athletics and female athletes, especially those who have no athletically-inclined daughters. That is one area where the rest of the world appears to be more advanced than the USA. This is why top female basketball players can get million dollar contract abroad and only jeers & sneers here. This discrimination is largely at the root of the economic disparity. If the bigots refuse to even look at the females who can beat the many males at basketball, how will they ever give themselves a chance to acknowledge them?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/21/18 5:49 pm ::: |
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| jap wrote: |
| In general, USA males do not appreciate female athletics and female athletes, especially those who have no athletically-inclined daughters. That is one area where the rest of the world appears to be more advanced than the USA. This is why top female basketball players can get million dollar contract abroad and only jeers & sneers here. This discrimination is largely at the root of the economic disparity. If the bigots refuse to even look at the females who can beat the many males at basketball, how will they ever give themselves a chance to acknowledge them? |
Two points:
*As far as I can tell, European fans, as opposed to European salaries, are not significantly more interested in women's basketball than American fans.
*And US females are just as uninterested in women's sports as US males, so I don't know if that's a fair comment.
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jap
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| Posted: 07/21/18 6:00 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| jap wrote: |
| In general, USA males do not appreciate female athletics and female athletes, especially those who have no athletically-inclined daughters. That is one area where the rest of the world appears to be more advanced than the USA. This is why top female basketball players can get million dollar contract abroad and only jeers & sneers here. This discrimination is largely at the root of the economic disparity. If the bigots refuse to even look at the females who can beat the many males at basketball, how will they ever give themselves a chance to acknowledge them? |
Two points:
*As far as I can tell, European fans, as opposed to European salaries, are not significantly more interested in women's basketball than American fans. |
I may be biasing my reaction for women's bball with what I have seen in tennis where the Williams sisters appeared to be accepted much more abroad than they were at home initially. Now that Serena and, to a lesser extent, Venus has dominated USA women's tennis for so long, they seem to be finally getting more acceptance at home.
| ClayK wrote: |
| *And US females are just as uninterested in women's sports as US males, so I don't know if that's a fair comment. |
I did not particularly comment on the interest of US females, and I certainly did not state nor imply they were more interested than US males. I wonder if US females are as interested in sports as US males. It would seem that the female interest in sports is increasing as I have witnessed that in my own family and friends. However, is sports fandom still male dominated or has the female fans membership caught uo or even surpassed that of males?
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ClayK
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| Posted: 07/22/18 9:48 am ::: |
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What I see at the high school and college levels is large numbers of female fans, relatively speaking, at boys' and men's games, and almost none at women's games.
In the WNBA, the lesbian fan base changes that equation, but check out a high school girls' game sometime and see how many female students are watching.
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tfan
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| Posted: 07/22/18 10:05 am ::: Re: WNBA-NBA wage gap is about economics, not gender |
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| Carol Anne wrote: |
| How will women athletes ever get better conditions or pay if they don't press for them? |
They could go on strike. But it should take improved attendance and/or TV ratings for that because I don’t think the owners make any money. You would be striking for more owner losses, not a larger share of profits.
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justinabina
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| Posted: 07/22/18 10:38 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
What I see at the high school and college levels is large numbers of female fans, relatively speaking, at boys' and men's games, and almost none at women's games.
In the WNBA, the lesbian fan base changes that equation, but check out a high school girls' game sometime and see how many female students are watching. |
This isn't just chance, though - it's a result of history.
I don't see why girls would be any less susceptible to believing that male players are more athletic and male sports are more exciting. We're all members of the same society and more or less exposed to the same general ways of thinking. It is a slow, difficult process to change widespread convictions (whether or not they're "true").
I don't understand why anyone would think economics is somehow separate from ideas about genders - as if ideas about gender haven't shaped, over time, who gets to perform what types of jobs, or earn certain amounts of money. (Let alone ideas about athleticism - who is "stronger" and therefore "more exciting.")
I'm curious about equal pay for tennis players. How did that happen? Did it happen because it was observed that female players were bringing in the same revenue & spectator numbers as male players? Was there an effort by female players to demand equal pay? Did fans argue that it was economics preventing the players from earning equal pay?
What if WNBA players' salaries increased? How would that affect league operations?
Last edited by justinabina on 07/22/18 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tfan
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| Posted: 07/22/18 10:42 am ::: |
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| justinabina wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
What I see at the high school and college levels is large numbers of female fans, relatively speaking, at boys' and men's games, and almost none at women's games.
In the WNBA, the lesbian fan base changes that equation, but check out a high school girls' game sometime and see how many female students are watching. |
This isn't just chance, though - it's a result of history.
I don't see why girls would be any less susceptible to believing that male players are more athletic and male sports are more exciting.
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What is your definition of “athletic” such that you feel women are as athletic as men?
But they can be as entertaining to watch, even if less athletic. But I think basketball is a sport that shows off the difference in athleticism more than other sports like baseball/softball and the entertainment value is diminished with lower jumping and less quickness.
Last edited by tfan on 07/22/18 10:53 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Rock Hard
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
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| Posted: 07/22/18 10:51 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| justinabina wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
What I see at the high school and college levels is large numbers of female fans, relatively speaking, at boys' and men's games, and almost none at women's games.
In the WNBA, the lesbian fan base changes that equation, but check out a high school girls' game sometime and see how many female students are watching. |
This isn't just chance, though - it's a result of history.
I don't see why girls would be any less susceptible to believing that male players are more athletic and male sports are more exciting.
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What is your definition of “athletic” such that you thin women are as athletic as men? |
Oh, I didn't say that! I just said that people in general perceive that male players are more athletic than female players.
That's a good question - what is the definition of "athletic"? What does it mean to be athletic? How can it measured? Can it be definitively, quantitatively determined that male players in general are more athletic than female players? Can any two people be deemed equally athletic, regardless of gender?
As a person who is not athletic, I find anyone strong who can run fast, move and jump with lots of agility and power, maintain stamina, etc. impressively athletic. :p
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 07/22/18 11:16 am ::: |
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Using the term "discrimination" is problematic because of the two different definitions.
1) the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
"victims of racial discrimination" ·
synonyms: prejudice · bias · bigotry · intolerance ·
2) recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.
"discrimination between right and wrong" ·
synonyms: differentiation · distinction · telling the difference
The question needs to be whether this is unjust. In most cases the mere fact that women have jobs that would be accomplished better by men would be considered unjust towards men. Indeed essentially all women's sports would be undone by that construction.
This week Brittany Lincicombe was given a sponsor's exemption to play in the PGA Tour event. She shot 78-71 to miss the cut by 9. She played very well in her second round but still would have missed the cut by 2 strokes if she had done that both days. Because she is a woman she is able to make a very good living playing golf. Her $588,000 in earnings this year is #16 on the LPGA but would be #137 on the PGA. So are women's golfers disadvantaged because they make less money than men, or dramatically advantaged because they make far more money than men of equal quality.
I have np problem with the WNBA players wanting more money. And while it would be unfortunate for the League, I wouldn't have a problem with players deciding not to play here. If the top players want to make a stand go ahead, but it is more likely to destroy the WNBA than to result in significantly better salaries,
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 07/22/18 11:27 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
What I see at the high school and college levels is large numbers of female fans, relatively speaking, at boys' and men's games, and almost none at women's games.
In the WNBA, the lesbian fan base changes that equation, but check out a high school girls' game sometime and see how many female students are watching. |
In my area, proportionally quite a few. It may have to do with not having much else to do in rural land, but they do come to the games.
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If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/22/18 11:30 am ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
I believe the one critical aspect that the WNBA players want to change with the next CBA contract is they want a larger percent of the total revenue than what they are getting now. The women are not dumb. They know their league does not make the same revenue as the NBA. They cannot approach the owners and demand million dollar contracts.  |
Yes, that is what several of them have said (and what has been ignored by a lot of idiots talking about what they've said). But the question is whether the economics of the league make a higher percentage viable. Just because the NBA players get around 50% of Basketball Related Income and the owners can be happy with how much they make from the remaining 50%, doesn't mean that that split would necessarily work in the WNBA. The whole balance of costs and expenses is completely different for the multi-million dollar organisation of the WNBA compared to the multi-billion dollar NBA.
I have no problem with Kelsey Plum's request to see all the numbers. I just hope that if they see the numbers, and a reasonable, impartial assessment of them reveals that the players are earning about as much as makes sense to keep the league alive, then they'll be willing to accept that. The fear is that the "we should be earning more!" narrative gains steam, and when they find out there's no more to give but keep pushing anyway, everything implodes.
If 50% of BRI was a viable amount, and the owners have only actually been paying out 20% for years, then wouldn't more owners have stuck around and/or invested in teams? Sounds like they should be making a decent profit, whether they'd be admitting it or not. |
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justinabina
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| Posted: 07/22/18 11:43 am ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| In most cases the mere fact that women have jobs that would be accomplished better by men would be considered unjust towards men. Indeed essentially all women's sports would be undone by that construction. |
I'm curious to hear more about this. What do you mean by "accomplished better by men"? According to what measurements or principles? How can you determine if something is accomplished "better"?
Do we all have the same ideas about accomplishment? Probably most sports fans can agree that we like winning.  But people have different motivations for watching and, perhaps, for finding satisfaction (and accomplishment) in a game. You, for example, seem interested in betting (and I appreciate your write-ups on the odds for each game; I read them even though I don't ever bet - they're like little stories, and they tend to make me more interested in games between teams I don't always follow). I'm not interested in betting, however. I watch WNBA games for different reasons, but probably the main ones are - first, because it has been eye-opening and mindset-altering for me to see how physically strong, powerful and full of swagger women can be; second, because I love stories and find the narratives that surround the sport intriguing and easy to follow (e.g. rivalries, stories of overcoming odds, etc.). (And third, because it's a low-stakes, high-adrenalin rush that gives me some work-stress relief. :p)
I appreciate your example from the golf world. I don't know anything about that sport, so I don't know why Brittany Lincicome would receive the money she received. Is this performance you cited typical of her play, or she is sometimes (or often) better? Does the LPGA have a different pay scale than the PGA? If so, are PGA players upset about that discrepancy and fighting to change it? Do the #1 LPGA and PGA players receive equal pay?
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MuneravenMN
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| Posted: 07/22/18 12:10 pm ::: Internalized Prejudice |
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It has been proven over and over that members of a somewhat despised minority will internalize the majority’s attitudes and also look down on themselves. Experiments were done pre-civil rights in which Black children were asked to choose between a White doll and a Black doll. The kids often chose the White doll because they had learned to see White as beautiful and Black as ugly. (Google “doll test” to find the details).
GLBT folks of a certain age, like me, can tell you all about internalized homophobia. Self-hatred in the gay community was really a plague for decades and it is still a real issue for many folks.
Women in much of the world have been raised in a patriarchy. This is changing, but slowly, and the damage done to women AND men raised in a culture that devalues women is beyond our ability to calculate. Even ardent feminists have ingrained into their subconscious minds the idea that men are this and women are that. And most people associate “great athlete” with “male.”
It isn’t good and it isn’t fair. It is bad for all genders. And it IS changing, but slowly and awkwardly. In America particularly we seem to only achieve change in big loops of retrograde motion, moving forward, dealing with a crazy backlash, then moving forward again.
If you want to change things, take kids to female sporting events regularly. My dad and I watched men’s sports but he took me to the women’s basketball games at our local community college. By doing so, he taught me that female athletes were worth watching. My dad, with an eighth grade education, understood the value of women’s sports, and he passed that on to me. That is the best way to change attitudes towards female athletes: Model valuing them every chance you get.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/22/18 12:11 pm ::: |
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| justinabina wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| In most cases the mere fact that women have jobs that would be accomplished better by men would be considered unjust towards men. Indeed essentially all women's sports would be undone by that construction. |
I'm curious to hear more about this. What do you mean by "accomplished better by men"? According to what measurements or principles? How can you determine if something is accomplished "better"? |
Probably by the measurement that if, say, Trevor Ariza - a good rotation NBA wing, who's not going to be making any all-star teams any time soon - were to randomly be made eligible to play in the WNBA, he'd run roughshod over it and be the MVP by a country mile. We've seen in the past that WNBA teams are better than collections of dumb minor celebrities, and I'm sure they win most of the time against the male practice squad guys they bring in - but an average G-League team, for example, would overwhelm a WNBA team physically.
Women's basketball obviously has its own qualities - none of us would be here if we didn't think that - but without that "Only players who are women are eligible to play in the WNBA" line in the CBA, there wouldn't be a single female in the entire league. |
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 07/22/18 12:42 pm ::: |
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| justinabina wrote: |
| I'm curious to hear more about this. What do you mean by "accomplished better by men"? According to what measurements or principles? How can you determine if something is accomplished "better"? |
In this regard I mean that men are better players; that if a WNBA team were able to have men on their team they would be more able to win games. I am not saying this because I believe women's sports are worthless. I enjoy several women's sports including some I can't bet on.
| justinabina wrote: |
I appreciate your example from the golf world. I don't know anything about that sport, so I don't know why Brittany Lincicome would receive the money she received. Is this performance you cited typical of her play, or she is sometimes (or often) better? Does the LPGA have a different pay scale than the PGA? If so, are PGA players upset about that discrepancy and fighting to change it? Do the #1 LPGA and PGA players receive equal pay? |
The PGA money leader has won roughly $5.8 million so far this year; the LPGA leader is $1.7 million. The two tours are separate and there is substantially more money on the men's tour. Lincicombe was given the opportunity to play in the men's tournament this week. Playing against the men she didn't get any prize money. She played very well in the second round, but even at that her level of play is not quite that of the top men. (I believe that the best woman golfer would rank somewhere around 5,000 among men.)
My point is that comparing men's and women's salaries in a sport is not the product of an unjust prejudice but rather a determination made by consumers of the sport.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 07/22/18 12:43 pm ::: Re: Internalized Prejudice |
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| MuneravenMN wrote: |
It has been proven over and over that members of a somewhat despised minority will internalize the majority’s attitudes and also look down on themselves. Experiments were done pre-civil rights in which Black children were asked to choose between a White doll and a Black doll. The kids often chose the White doll because they had learned to see White as beautiful and Black as ugly. (Google “doll test” to find the details).
GLBT folks of a certain age, like me, can tell you all about internalized homophobia. Self-hatred in the gay community was really a plague for decades and it is still a real issue for many folks.
Women in much of the world have been raised in a patriarchy. This is changing, but slowly, and the damage done to women AND men raised in a culture that devalues women is beyond our ability to calculate. Even ardent feminists have ingrained into their subconscious minds the idea that men are this and women are that. And most people associate “great athlete” with “male.”
It isn’t good and it isn’t fair. It is bad for all genders. And it IS changing, but slowly and awkwardly. In America particularly we seem to only achieve change in big loops of retrograde motion, moving forward, dealing with a crazy backlash, then moving forward again.
If you want to change things, take kids to female sporting events regularly. My dad and I watched men’s sports but he took me to the women’s basketball games at our local community college. By doing so, he taught me that female athletes were worth watching. My dad, with an eighth grade education, understood the value of women’s sports, and he passed that on to me. That is the best way to change attitudes towards female athletes: Model valuing them every chance you get. |
Excellent points.
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
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| Posted: 07/22/18 3:09 pm ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
My point is that comparing men's and women's salaries in a sport is not the product of an unjust prejudice but rather a determination made by consumers of the sport. |
Right - but my original point is that consumers and their tastes are informed by a history of widespread negative (or limiting) attitudes about women, women's athleticism, and women's sports. I don't understand how economics and ideas about gender can be separated, since, as mentioned, ideas about gender have for a very long time determined who gets what type of job and what type of salary. It doesn't make sense to me say "WNBA and NBA wage gap is about economics, not gender." To me, the wage gap is about economics and gender.
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
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| Posted: 07/22/18 3:29 pm ::: Re: Internalized Prejudice |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| MuneravenMN wrote: |
It has been proven over and over that members of a somewhat despised minority will internalize the majority’s attitudes and also look down on themselves. Experiments were done pre-civil rights in which Black children were asked to choose between a White doll and a Black doll. The kids often chose the White doll because they had learned to see White as beautiful and Black as ugly. (Google “doll test” to find the details).
GLBT folks of a certain age, like me, can tell you all about internalized homophobia. Self-hatred in the gay community was really a plague for decades and it is still a real issue for many folks.
Women in much of the world have been raised in a patriarchy. This is changing, but slowly, and the damage done to women AND men raised in a culture that devalues women is beyond our ability to calculate. Even ardent feminists have ingrained into their subconscious minds the idea that men are this and women are that. And most people associate “great athlete” with “male.”
It isn’t good and it isn’t fair. It is bad for all genders. And it IS changing, but slowly and awkwardly. In America particularly we seem to only achieve change in big loops of retrograde motion, moving forward, dealing with a crazy backlash, then moving forward again.
If you want to change things, take kids to female sporting events regularly. My dad and I watched men’s sports but he took me to the women’s basketball games at our local community college. By doing so, he taught me that female athletes were worth watching. My dad, with an eighth grade education, understood the value of women’s sports, and he passed that on to me. That is the best way to change attitudes towards female athletes: Model valuing them every chance you get. |
Excellent points. |
Agreed!
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 07/22/18 3:33 pm ::: |
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| justinabina wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
My point is that comparing men's and women's salaries in a sport is not the product of an unjust prejudice but rather a determination made by consumers of the sport. |
Right - but my original point is that consumers and their tastes are informed by a history of widespread negative (or limiting) attitudes about women, women's athleticism, and women's sports. I don't understand how economics and ideas about gender can be separated, since, as mentioned, ideas about gender have for a very long time determined who gets what type of job and what type of salary. It doesn't make sense to me say "WNBA and NBA wage gap is about economics, not gender." To me, the wage gap is about economics and gender. |
If you remove "negative (or limiting)" I would agree completely. There are absolutely attitudes that help determine what we (as a culture) like. But when I see so much purely unjust discrimination in other areas of life, whether racial, gender, religious or nationality-based, I believe that this issue is far less clear-cut.
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 07/22/18 5:08 pm ::: |
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I don’t buy the “worse product” line. People will watch all levels of a sport, even if those different levels can’t compete.
March madness makes over a billion dollars every year. More than the NFL playoffs. The G league would run over the March Madness winner too. Yet, guess what is more popular.
In some areas of the country, HIGH SCHOOL football, is the most popular sport. Again, college and professionals would run over those teams.
So why does it matter with the WNBA? This idea that it isn’t popular because players from different leagues would beat up on the WNBA doesn’t quite fit..
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