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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 08/02/18 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Maybe the sheer volume of flights and destinations makes it unworkable, but I always thought a sponsorship/partnetrship deal with a major airline would've made a lot of sense. Make somebody the Official Airline of the WNBA, give them a few ads somewhere, and rather than a basic lump sum get preferential treatment for the players to travel in return. Business Class rather than coach when possible, make sure all the exit row seats are reserved for players, and so on.

Maybe charters aren't possible, but improving the current situation might be.


NVM


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also, reliability issues with commercial schedules...

https://twitter.com/kaymac_2123/status/1025179027424694277

Quote:
Going on hour 7 in the airport. Hoping we can get this resolved. Not trying to travel all night with a stop and have to play a big game tomorrow #SOS #CompetitiveDisadvantage #LAPhotobomb 😂



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 8:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Another thought, I’ve noticed the increase in outspoken NBA support this season. Is it potentially in support of the players in a new agreement?

Lebron James, in particular, has been vocally supportive in NBA players getting their fair share. (See his comments about Steph Curry, whom he isn’t buddy buddy with...a few years ago.)

I’m sure it would help the league to have the men be vocally supportive when it comes up, too.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 08/02/18 9:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Are there enough first class and business seats available on every flight so players could upgrade? If so, how much more money would that be for 12 players over the course of a season?


Chartering a jet would likely be cheaper than upgrading 12 people to first class (assuming only the players get upgraded). A heavy jet charters for about $8500/hour.


It looks like first class is cheaper than charter. Travelocity for 9/11/2018 - JFK to LAX, has economy flights from $119, business class from $312 and first class from $486. If you paid $600 for 17 people [12 players, 4 coaches, 1 trainer] that is $10,200, which is less than $8,500 times the number of hours that flight takes (5?). This site is advertising $46,000 as their cheapest private shuttle flight from NYC to LA.


ChasingRatDogmaSalade



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 200
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PostPosted: 08/03/18 12:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Also, reliability issues with commercial schedules...

https://twitter.com/kaymac_2123/status/1025179027424694277

Quote:
Going on hour 7 in the airport. Hoping we can get this resolved. Not trying to travel all night with a stop and have to play a big game tomorrow #SOS #CompetitiveDisadvantage #LAPhotobomb 😂


Still at the airport. Fly out at 1:20 am. By the time we get to the hotel in DC we will have been traveling 24 hours.

Good times.

😎


ChasingRatDogmaSalade



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 6:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote:
pilight wrote:
Also, reliability issues with commercial schedules...

https://twitter.com/kaymac_2123/status/1025179027424694277

Quote:
Going on hour 7 in the airport. Hoping we can get this resolved. Not trying to travel all night with a stop and have to play a big game tomorrow #SOS #CompetitiveDisadvantage #LAPhotobomb 😂


Still at the airport. Fly out at 1:20 am. By the time we get to the hotel in DC we will have been traveling 24 hours.

Good times.

😎


Made it to Dallas. Our flight out of here is delayed 35 minutes already, and we are now scheduled to arrive in Washington at 1:30 pm ET.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 08/03/18 7:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of the same issues that impact commercial flights also impact charter - weather, air traffic control issues and plane mechanical/maintenance issues. I suspect private jets would be better, but its not like they would never take off or arrive late.

Anyway - today sounds like a good day to take the Mystics if you are betting actual money...


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 7:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Flight delays is a better argument for eliminating back-to-backs than for charter travel.

You might get a delay with a charter, but a sudden cancellation leading to hours and hours of sitting at the airport would be unlikely.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 7:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder how much penny pinching teams do (or are allowed to do) in terms of picking cheaper flights that require more stops and longer travel times. Just for example, flying from say Chicago to Atlanta would a bit over an hour non stop, but stops along the way could make it a pretty long trip and one much more prone to complications and delays.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe the CBA could include a clause about non-stops only ...



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Maybe the CBA could include a clause about non-stops only ...


Or at least when possible. Not sure non-stops are always available into Hartford from the west coast, for example.



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ChasingRatDogmaSalade



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Players are all on flights to D.C. Should arrive at hotel at about 3 pm.

Certain staff members, however ......

Evil or Very Mad


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Are there enough first class and business seats available on every flight so players could upgrade? If so, how much more money would that be for 12 players over the course of a season?


Chartering a jet would likely be cheaper than upgrading 12 people to first class (assuming only the players get upgraded). A heavy jet charters for about $8500/hour.


It looks like first class is cheaper than charter. Travelocity for 9/11/2018 - JFK to LAX, has economy flights from $119, business class from $312 and first class from $486. If you paid $600 for 17 people [12 players, 4 coaches, 1 trainer] that is $10,200, which is less than $8,500 times the number of hours that flight takes (5?). This site is advertising $46,000 as their cheapest private shuttle flight from NYC to LA.


I don't know how many people travel with the teams. I'd guess at least 20. The more people, the more cost effective a charter would be.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 08/03/18 10:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Today's cancellation puts the cost of charters in perspective. Washington loses 6% of its home revenue because the other team has travel issues. Whether one team or the other is ultimately made liable, this not only hurts total revenue; it is also a big black eye for the WNBA. Regardless of what is decided some teams (including both players and fans) will feel like the decision directly hurts them.

The CBA needs to cover many issues, and ideally players and owners can make decisions about how the limited resources of the league can be allocated among player salaries (and benefits) and administrative expenses. Both groups should be doing all they can to increase revenues.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 9:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know about this: Would I rather have $10,000 more in my pocket (guessing on the number) or fly on a charter to every game?

I think I'd take the cash but ...

If there are two flights involved in every road game (34) and one for every home game (17), that's 51 flights. Call it 50 to make the math easy, and if the salary number is $10,000, that's $200 out of my pocket every time I get on a plane. (The real number of flights is probably closer to 30 ...)

To put it another way, would I fly commercial if someone gave me $200, or would I go with the charter?

If the negotiation that allowed charter flights was a choice between $5,000 in salary and charters, would $100 be enough to make me want to fly commercial?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 9:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
If there are two flights involved in every road game (34) and one for every home game (17), that's 51 flights. Call it 50 to make the math easy, and if the salary number is $10,000, that's $200 out of my pocket every time I get on a plane. (The real number of flights is probably closer to 30 )


I was just looking at that. If we assume that the team is flying direct from one road game to the next unless there are more than four days between them then Atlanta's schedule would mean 31 flights this season. The only time the four day rule comes into effect is next week, when they're in New York on the 12th and Phoenix on the 17th, and in the preseason; May 6th and 11th, then the season opener on the 20th. I'm guessing the team comes home between those games.



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SportsGuru



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The NBA by having the WNBA on ABC and ESPN is showcasing the WNBA as Major League, you don't see Roller Derby on ABC or ESPN. The NBA should start supplying WNBA Teams with a Charter Airline Service (sorta like a Flying Uber).


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SportsGuru wrote:
The NBA by having the WNBA on ABC and ESPN is showcasing the WNBA as Major League, you don't see Roller Derby on ABC or ESPN. The NBA should start supplying WNBA Teams with a Charter Airline Service (sorta like a Flying Uber).


Roller Derby on ESPN

https://wftda.tv/espn/



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SportsGuru



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
SportsGuru wrote:
The NBA by having the WNBA on ABC and ESPN is showcasing the WNBA as Major League, you don't see Roller Derby on ABC or ESPN. The NBA should start supplying WNBA Teams with a Charter Airline Service (sorta like a Flying Uber).


Roller Derby on ESPN

https://wftda.tv/espn/


Big fan of Roller Derby, I hope they stream the Championship live on ESPN3 in November 2018. Notice it's ESPN3 not ABC or ESPN or ESPN2 TV


Randy



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Roller Derby is now a respected grass roots sports phenom whose participants are mainly women.

http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=88579&highlight=roller+derby



Quote:
I went to a Roller Derby match last night. Its no longer WWE on wheels, but has morphed into a sport run by and for women to compete in a demanding, physical team sport. Pretty fun - there are lots of teams in most major cities. Might be worth checking out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_derby



Quote:
Modern roller derby is an international sport dominated by all-female amateur teams, in addition to a growing number of male, unisex, and junior roller derby teams, and was (as a roller sport) under consideration for the 2020 Summer Olympics.[6][7][8] Most modern leagues (their back-office volunteers included) share a strong "do it yourself" ethic[9] which combines athleticism and elements from camp.[10] As of 2014, the Women's Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), had 243 full member leagues and 114 Apprentice Leagu



Quote:
A large number of contemporary roller derby leagues are amateur, self-organized and all-female [64] and were formed in a DIY spirit by relatively new roller derby enthusiasts.[65] In many leagues (particularly but not exclusively in the U.S.), a punk[66][67] aesthetic and/or third-wave feminist[68] ethic is prominent.[69] Furthermore, roller derby teams are typically composed of members of various social strata such as stay-at-home mothers, lawyers, and nurses,[70] and "Being gay/straight/bi/trans is simply no big deal, as long as you can skate."[71] Members of fledgling leagues often practice and strategize together, regardless of team affiliation, between bouts.[72] Most compete on flat tracks, though several leagues skate on banked tracks, with more in the planning stages.[73][74]



SportsGuru



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PostPosted: 08/04/18 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Roller Derby is now a respected grass roots sports phenom whose participants are mainly women.

http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=88579&highlight=roller+derby



Quote:
I went to a Roller Derby match last night. Its no longer WWE on wheels, but has morphed into a sport run by and for women to compete in a demanding, physical team sport. Pretty fun - there are lots of teams in most major cities. Might be worth checking out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_derby

Quote:
Modern roller derby is an international sport dominated by all-female amateur teams, in addition to a growing number of male, unisex, and junior roller derby teams, and was (as a roller sport) under consideration for the 2020 Summer Olympics.[6][7][8] Most modern leagues (their back-office volunteers included) share a strong "do it yourself" ethic[9] which combines athleticism and elements from camp.[10] As of 2014, the Women's Flat Track Derby Association (WFTDA), had 243 full member leagues and 114 Apprentice Leagu



Quote:
A large number of contemporary roller derby leagues are amateur, self-organized and all-female [64] and were formed in a DIY spirit by relatively new roller derby enthusiasts.[65] In many leagues (particularly but not exclusively in the U.S.), a punk[66][67] aesthetic and/or third-wave feminist[68] ethic is prominent.[69] Furthermore, roller derby teams are typically composed of members of various social strata such as stay-at-home mothers, lawyers, and nurses,[70] and "Being gay/straight/bi/trans is simply no big deal, as long as you can skate."[71] Members of fledgling leagues often practice and strategize together, regardless of team affiliation, between bouts.[72] Most compete on flat tracks, though several leagues skate on banked tracks, with more in the planning stages.[73][74]



Back in the day Wash, DC had a Roller Derby team name the Cats who played at the Uline Arena Ice House, New York had the Bombers , there was a Texas Outlaws and Cali Bay Warriors teams too.


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PostPosted: 08/05/18 10:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.


From that article, this quote by Taurasi:
"I've said the WNBA is the most communist business you'll ever be in," she said. "And it's funny, I spent 12 years in a communist country feeling the benefits of a free economy. It's bizarre to me that I've lived in this paradigm. I've lived the American dream somewhere else."

FWIW, the Russian sports teams for which Taurasi has played are directly subsidized by the Russian government. When DT says she's been "feeling the benefits of a free economy", what she apparently means is that she's benefitted from a foreign government's financial largesse. That's fine, so far as it goes. I don't begrudge DT taking the money that's been offered to her. I just wish she wouldn't point to the arrangement as some sort of free-market exemplar, in order to comparatively sh*t-talk the W.


Randy



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PostPosted: 08/05/18 10:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
pilight wrote:
Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.


From that article, this quote by Taurasi:
"I've said the WNBA is the most communist business you'll ever be in," she said. "And it's funny, I spent 12 years in a communist country feeling the benefits of a free economy. It's bizarre to me that I've lived in this paradigm. I've lived the American dream somewhere else."

FWIW, the Russian sports teams for which Taurasi has played are directly subsidized by the Russian government. When DT says she's been "feeling the benefits of a free economy", what she apparently means is that she's benefitted from a foreign government's financial largesse. That's fine, so far as it goes. I don't begrudge DT taking the money that's been offered to her. I just wish she wouldn't point to the arrangement as some sort of free-market exemplar, in order to comparatively sh*t-talk the W.


They pay her a lot of money. That's a free enough economy for her.


patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 08/05/18 10:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
pilight wrote:
Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.


From that article, this quote by Taurasi:
"I've said the WNBA is the most communist business you'll ever be in," she said. "And it's funny, I spent 12 years in a communist country feeling the benefits of a free economy. It's bizarre to me that I've lived in this paradigm. I've lived the American dream somewhere else."

FWIW, the Russian sports teams for which Taurasi has played are directly subsidized by the Russian government. When DT says she's been "feeling the benefits of a free economy", what she apparently means is that she's benefitted from a foreign government's financial largesse. That's fine, so far as it goes. I don't begrudge DT taking the money that's been offered to her. I just wish she wouldn't point to the arrangement as some sort of free-market exemplar, in order to comparatively sh*t-talk the W.


They pay her a lot of money. That's a free enough economy for her.


Honestly, that's probably exactly what she means.

"I get paid a lot of money, even if it's government money" = "a free economy" and "the American dream".

Okay. I'm not sure how the WNBA is supposed to go about emulating that particular "business" model, but okay.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 08/05/18 11:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
Randy wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
pilight wrote:
Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.


From that article, this quote by Taurasi:
"I've said the WNBA is the most communist business you'll ever be in," she said. "And it's funny, I spent 12 years in a communist country feeling the benefits of a free economy. It's bizarre to me that I've lived in this paradigm. I've lived the American dream somewhere else."

FWIW, the Russian sports teams for which Taurasi has played are directly subsidized by the Russian government. When DT says she's been "feeling the benefits of a free economy", what she apparently means is that she's benefitted from a foreign government's financial largesse. That's fine, so far as it goes. I don't begrudge DT taking the money that's been offered to her. I just wish she wouldn't point to the arrangement as some sort of free-market exemplar, in order to comparatively sh*t-talk the W.


They pay her a lot of money. That's a free enough economy for her.


Honestly, that's probably exactly what she means.

"I get paid a lot of money, even if it's government money" = "a free economy" and "the American dream".

Okay. I'm not sure how the WNBA is supposed to go about emulating that particular "business" model, but okay.


I don't believe all teams overseas are subsidized by the government, and from all I've read about the team Diana Taurasi played from, it's not subsidized by the government. If you have an article or something that says otherwise I would love to read it.

And on a separate but kind of related, I had a friend play overseas for a couple of years and her entire contract was paid by a sponsor. So even if the government did subsidize her team in anyway, it wasn't included in her contract to directly receive any of it.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 08/05/18 11:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe Taurasi is referring to the WNBA/player’s union CBA as “communist”. That is, it doesn’t allow enough differentiation between salaries of stars and salaries of bench players to her liking. As opposed to Russia, where the Russian mafia and oligarchs can pay very large salaries (not justified by capitalist profits) to stars and peanuts to everyone else.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 12:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
I believe Taurasi is referring to the WNBA/player’s union CBA as “communist”. That is, it doesn’t allow enough differentiation between salaries of stars and salaries of bench players to her liking. As opposed to Russia, where the Russian mafia and oligarchs can pay very large salaries (not justified by capitalist profits) to stars and peanuts to everyone else.

Some would call that being paid what you're worth. If you're, say, a genius computer programmer, and only five people on Earth can create and write the kind of code you produce, Microsoft or Apple or whoever are going to pay you millions (as long as you know your worth and negotiate it right). The grunts who do the basic coding that any of hundreds of thousands of computer science grads could do are gonna make enough to pay their rent and go to the movies on Friday night.

The WNBA's artificial system means the genius gets barely twice what an entry-level grunt is on, and exactly the same as 40% of the programmers at the company. You can kinda see why someone brought up in a supposedly great capitalist democracy might feel they're not exactly getting their due.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 7:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The WNBA's "artificial" system exists because the WNBAPA is more or less a classic union. The rank and file members hold the superstars salaries down so their own salaries can go up. Seniority as much as anything drives the pay scale. This is completely unlike the NBA model which allows the best players to get 25 x the least talented players. I don't think the owners can be blamed for the WNBA system. They probably don't care much how the salary cap $ are distributed, but with the recent spate of players sitting out, etc they would probably like to pay the best players more and the least talented ones less.


Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 8:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The WNBA's "artificial" system exists because the WNBAPA is more or less a classic union. The rank and file members hold the superstars salaries down so their own salaries can go up. Seniority as much as anything drives the pay scale. This is completely unlike the NBA model which allows the best players to get 25 x the least talented players. I don't think the owners can be blamed for the WNBA system. They probably don't care much how the salary cap $ are distributed, but with the recent spate of players sitting out, etc they would probably like to pay the best players more and the least talented ones less.

That is an issue the players must work out with the new CBA. Do they want a new paradigm where the superstars get paid a lot more money than the average player. The other major issue to be worked out is the free agency structure. There is very little player movement with the current free agency structure. The major stars must force to not play in order to have any freedom of movement in the league. The question is will the players be willing to strike in order to address these two important issues.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 8:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The WNBA's "artificial" system exists because the WNBAPA is more or less a classic union. The rank and file members hold the superstars salaries down so their own salaries can go up. Seniority as much as anything drives the pay scale. This is completely unlike the NBA model which allows the best players to get 25 x the least talented players. I don't think the owners can be blamed for the WNBA system. They probably don't care much how the salary cap $ are distributed, but with the recent spate of players sitting out, etc they would probably like to pay the best players more and the least talented ones less.

In the NBA, the owners don't really care how the players want to split up their cash, because everything is so secure, and even the lowest paid players are making a lot of money by normal human standards. But in the WNBA, I do think the owners/league would be a little more invested. If the top players aren't getting enough, they're a threat to not play at all which hurts the product and the league. But if you pay the mid-level players so little that they all decide the WNBA isn't really worth it, you could end up with a few stars and then a load of absolute scrubs. Just playing basketball for money in the USA won't be enough of a draw if they can make more as an assistant coach of a high school team - or by playing in Finland for 8 months and then spending the summer on vacation.

So while it's definitely going to be the players who are most worried about who's getting what in the next CBA, I do think the owners will care a little. Although given that it's a give-and-take negotiation, they won't want to admit that Wink.



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 10:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Randy wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
pilight wrote:
Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.


From that article, this quote by Taurasi:
"I've said the WNBA is the most communist business you'll ever be in," she said. "And it's funny, I spent 12 years in a communist country feeling the benefits of a free economy. It's bizarre to me that I've lived in this paradigm. I've lived the American dream somewhere else."

FWIW, the Russian sports teams for which Taurasi has played are directly subsidized by the Russian government. When DT says she's been "feeling the benefits of a free economy", what she apparently means is that she's benefitted from a foreign government's financial largesse. That's fine, so far as it goes. I don't begrudge DT taking the money that's been offered to her. I just wish she wouldn't point to the arrangement as some sort of free-market exemplar, in order to comparatively sh*t-talk the W.


They pay her a lot of money. That's a free enough economy for her.


Honestly, that's probably exactly what she means.

"I get paid a lot of money, even if it's government money" = "a free economy" and "the American dream".

Okay. I'm not sure how the WNBA is supposed to go about emulating that particular "business" model, but okay.


I don't believe all teams overseas are subsidized by the government, and from all I've read about the team Diana Taurasi played from, it's not subsidized by the government. If you have an article or something that says otherwise I would love to read it.


From this article about the murder of the shady industrialist who owned Taurasi's former team:

An avid fan of basketball, which he played while growing up in Lithuania, Kalmanovitch indulged his passion by pouring millions of dollars a year into the Spartak women's team which also received heavy subsidies from the Moscow regional government.

http://www.fullcourt.com/lee-michaelson/4709/spartak-moscow-owner-murdered

And from a Medium article:

The women’s basketball landscape is drastically different in Russia. Historically, the Russian government has been kind to professional sports, offering subsidies to teams in order to attract talent from elsewhere across the world. And it’s worked; plenty of WNBA players flock to not only to the Russian Premier League, but to the Euroleague, the Women’s Chinese Basketball Association, and other leagues overseas for much thicker paychecks than what they can find here in America.

https://medium.com/the-rough/the-future-of-the-wnba-looking-past-diana-taurasi-faa79a4c98fb


tfan



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 4:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
tfan wrote:
I believe Taurasi is referring to the WNBA/player’s union CBA as “communist”. That is, it doesn’t allow enough differentiation between salaries of stars and salaries of bench players to her liking. As opposed to Russia, where the Russian mafia and oligarchs can pay very large salaries (not justified by capitalist profits) to stars and peanuts to everyone else.


Some would call that being paid what you're worth. If you're, say, a genius computer programmer, and only five people on Earth can create and write the kind of code you produce, Microsoft or Apple or whoever are going to pay you millions (as long as you know your worth and negotiate it right). The grunts who do the basic coding that any of hundreds of thousands of computer science grads could do are gonna make enough to pay their rent and go to the movies on Friday night.


The comparison with Taurasi to her peers would be that she is at the top tier in talent. She can’t do things that only five players can do, she only does the same things better. The analogy would be to programmers who are more productive - fewer bugs and work is done quicker than peers. Those programmers become the highest paid, but they don’t have an “order of magnitude” wage disparity with the programmers who are one step away from layoff. The WNBA salaries are probably similar to what a top-rated programmer makes versus a low-rated one (in the same programming domain). But if not, there is an alternative to paying Taurasi more.


Quote:

The WNBA's artificial system means the genius gets barely twice what an entry-level grunt is on, and exactly the same as 40% of the programmers at the company. You can kinda see why someone brought up in a supposedly great capitalist democracy might feel they're not exactly getting their due.


The WNBA started out paying the lowest players somewhere between $12,500 and $15,000 a year. Had they maintained that low entry, or went back to it, Taurasi could get a nice disparity in wage, and the league could remain semi-financially viable.

Apparently in Russia they let the super rich owners outspend the others for American talent. It must make being a fan of the outspent teams challenging. The WNBA could try that, but I don’t see it working. You would have a few Lynx-type teams and many Tulsa Shock teams, with the attendance and interest in each city reflecting that. Although, if the league went to 2 or 3 teams, some fans here would be very pleased with the average level of talent in the league.


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PostPosted: 08/06/18 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Apparently in Russia they let the super rich owners outspend the others for American talent. It must make being a fan of the outspent teams challenging.

You mean like, say, Major League Baseball?



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
tfan wrote:
Apparently in Russia they let the super rich owners outspend the others for American talent. It must make being a fan of the outspent teams challenging.

You mean like, say, Major League Baseball?


Luckily the US has other sports with salary caps, like the NBA, that don't have competitive balance issues



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
tfan wrote:
Apparently in Russia they let the super rich owners outspend the others for American talent. It must make being a fan of the outspent teams challenging.


You mean like, say, Major League Baseball?


They do have a luxury tax, although it looks like most of that never makes it to the poorer teams. I guess the WNBA players could point to MLB (the lone USA league without a salary cap) as a model when negotiating their next contract, but negotiating with a subsidiary of a league that has a “soft-cap” makes it tougher. However, they would seem to have a good shot at a NBA-style “soft-cap”.

The stars are stuck between trying to get more money from a league that doesn’t make money, or from non-star players who have to approve giving more of their money to the stars.

Wikipedia says that the Yankees and the players union fight any attempts by small market teams to add a cap to MLB. Maybe the WNBA union can team up with Glen Taylor or Magic Johnson to fight the less-rich owners. The ability to buy a championship could make the NBA owners (or other very rich) more interested in owning a team.

It would be nice if the system was setup in such a way that bad teams with few stars had an ability to pay a great free agent significantly more than a great team with lots of stars. But even then you could get Fowles-ish movement just based on the summer job nature of the league making championships more valuable than some amount of money.


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PostPosted: 08/06/18 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A few points:

1) Russia is not a communist country and it hasn't been for a few decades. It is an authoritarian country (as opposed to democratic) whose economics are part socialism and part capitalist cleptocracy.

2) I believe the WNBA owners would be happy to let the players decide however they want to divide salaries amongst themselves. Their concern is total salary and total cost of benefits, and the owners should step aside on an individual player cap exemption or other modification as long as they maintain the total cap. Competitive balance is also important, but I doubt is as important as total cost.

3) The travel issue with Las Vegas exposed a problem. The season was shortened by 2 weeks because of Europe; travel is greater because of the balanced schedule and so there are fewer off days. The Aces took what I believe is the only daytime non stop from Las Vegas to Washington National Airport, but a seven hour delay followed by a cancellation caused a big headache. The CBA will have to address this.


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/06/18 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
1) Russia is not a communist country and it hasn't been for a few decades. It is an authoritarian country (as opposed to democratic) whose economics are part socialism and part capitalist cleptocracy.


Diana Taurasi was in the 4th grade when Russia stopped being a communist country



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 08/07/18 11:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Maybe the sheer volume of flights and destinations makes it unworkable, but I always thought a sponsorship/partnetrship deal with a major airline would've made a lot of sense. Make somebody the Official Airline of the WNBA, give them a few ads somewhere, and rather than a basic lump sum get preferential treatment for the players to travel in return. Business Class rather than coach when possible, make sure all the exit row seats are reserved for players, and so on.

Maybe charters aren't possible, but improving the current situation might be.


100 percent agree.

Given the travel situations/issues that have been highlighted this year, as well as player discontent with certain terms and conditions of the CBA and other matters (as expressed via social media), finding a corporate sponsor in the airline industry should be a big priority for the W this offseason.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 08/07/18 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
GEF34 wrote:

I don't believe all teams overseas are subsidized by the government, and from all I've read about the team Diana Taurasi played from, it's not subsidized by the government. If you have an article or something that says otherwise I would love to read it.


From this article about the murder of the shady industrialist who owned Taurasi's former team:

An avid fan of basketball, which he played while growing up in Lithuania, Kalmanovitch indulged his passion by pouring millions of dollars a year into the Spartak women's team which also received heavy subsidies from the Moscow regional government.

http://www.fullcourt.com/lee-michaelson/4709/spartak-moscow-owner-murdered

And from a Medium article:

The women’s basketball landscape is drastically different in Russia. Historically, the Russian government has been kind to professional sports, offering subsidies to teams in order to attract talent from elsewhere across the world. And it’s worked; plenty of WNBA players flock to not only to the Russian Premier League, but to the Euroleague, the Women’s Chinese Basketball Association, and other leagues overseas for much thicker paychecks than what they can find here in America.

https://medium.com/the-rough/the-future-of-the-wnba-looking-past-diana-taurasi-faa79a4c98fb


Thanks for posting the articles. According to the article below Diana Taurasi's current team is not, or at least no longer subsidized by the government.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/espnw-russia160505/brittney-griner-diana-taurasi-opted-play-russia-money-escape-spotlight

Quote:
Dozens of teams are funded in part by local governments, while other clubs, such as the one Taurasi and Griner now play for, are backed by a huge corporation. (UMMC is the second-largest copper producer in Russia and operates mines across Europe.)



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 1:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The case for boosting WNBA player salaries

https://wtop.com/social-media/2018/08/the-case-for-boosting-wnba-player-salaries/

Quote:
Of course, the NBA rakes in far more revenue. However, in the 1971-1972 season – the year the NBA started drawing the same number of fans that the WNBA attracts today – the average salary was $90,000, which would equate to roughly $500,000 today.



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miller40



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
GEF34 wrote:

I don't believe all teams overseas are subsidized by the government, and from all I've read about the team Diana Taurasi played from, it's not subsidized by the government. If you have an article or something that says otherwise I would love to read it.


From this article about the murder of the shady industrialist who owned Taurasi's former team:

An avid fan of basketball, which he played while growing up in Lithuania, Kalmanovitch indulged his passion by pouring millions of dollars a year into the Spartak women's team which also received heavy subsidies from the Moscow regional government.

http://www.fullcourt.com/lee-michaelson/4709/spartak-moscow-owner-murdered

And from a Medium article:

The women’s basketball landscape is drastically different in Russia. Historically, the Russian government has been kind to professional sports, offering subsidies to teams in order to attract talent from elsewhere across the world. And it’s worked; plenty of WNBA players flock to not only to the Russian Premier League, but to the Euroleague, the Women’s Chinese Basketball Association, and other leagues overseas for much thicker paychecks than what they can find here in America.

https://medium.com/the-rough/the-future-of-the-wnba-looking-past-diana-taurasi-faa79a4c98fb


Thanks for posting the articles. According to the article below Diana Taurasi's current team is not, or at least no longer subsidized by the government.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/espnw-russia160505/brittney-griner-diana-taurasi-opted-play-russia-money-escape-spotlight

Quote:
Dozens of teams are funded in part by local governments, while other clubs, such as the one Taurasi and Griner now play for, are backed by a huge corporation. (UMMC is the second-largest copper producer in Russia and operates mines across Europe.)


The President and CEO of the company financing the team are corrupt oligarchs with (rumored) ties to the Russian mafia and close friendship with Putin though. I guess the money doesn't come directly from the state, but their relationship with the state is what allowed them to get the money.


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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The funding of teams, whether government (local or national), oligarch or business, doesn't really matter. The point is that in the United States funding of sports teams are basically private business. Certainly their are government subsidies for stadiums and there is significant sponsorship revenue from business, but the basic American formula for financing sports is what it is. This can't be changed through a CBA.

The name of the game for both players and owners must be, "How can we expand revenue?" All other issues are secondary, including how the revenue pie is divided.


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PostPosted: 08/13/18 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here is a schedule using the same home dates as the actual WNBA schedule. There are four back-to-backs (eight teams) for the whole league, only because the league scheduled seven games in two days four times. Move four home dates and there would be none. Even with the schedule this compact, it's hard to believe they couldn't move four dates.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VI7C3IZdpCLbLqRcPCkGoFTSC3CEvetux4cSn04TzMs/edit?usp=sharing



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Last edited by pilight on 08/13/18 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/13/18 12:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From what I've heard, certain teams actually like back-to-backs, because they keep travel costs down. If you fly-play-fly-play-fly home, presumably it's cheaper than fly-play-fly-hotel room stay-play-fly home.

Also - and this one is pure speculation based on something that occurred to me the other day - keeping a couple of back-to-backs on the schedule for each team could be a move by ownership/the league to make sure the Players' Association have to negotiate it out in CBA discussions. These things are always give and take, so you leave something like that hanging around as an issue so that you can get something else back if the players want it enough. But that one's just me guessing, not based on any information.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 08/16/18 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Liz Cambage tells us 5 ways the WNBA is failing its players


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBPA announces changes to its executive committee

http://www.hoopfeed.com/content/2018/08/20/wnbpa-announces-changes-to-its-executive-committee/

Quote:
Sue Bird, Elena Delle Donne, and Chiney Ogwumike were elected to the offices of Vice President; Elizabeth Williams was elected as Secretary; and Carolyn Swords was elected as Treasurer.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 4:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
WNBPA announces changes to its executive committee

http://www.hoopfeed.com/content/2018/08/20/wnbpa-announces-changes-to-its-executive-committee/

Quote:
Sue Bird, Elena Delle Donne, and Chiney Ogwumike were elected to the offices of Vice President; Elizabeth Williams was elected as Secretary; and Carolyn Swords was elected as Treasurer.

Already up on their Leadership page on their website as well: https://wnbpa.com/about/leadership/ . They got that up damn fast.

Interesting that one of the people elected was the team rep and most quoted player during the Las Vegas missed game mess.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
WNBPA announces changes to its executive committee

http://www.hoopfeed.com/content/2018/08/20/wnbpa-announces-changes-to-its-executive-committee/

Quote:
Sue Bird, Elena Delle Donne, and Chiney Ogwumike were elected to the offices of Vice President; Elizabeth Williams was elected as Secretary; and Carolyn Swords was elected as Treasurer.

Already up on their Leadership page on their website as well: https://wnbpa.com/about/leadership/ . They got that up damn fast.

Interesting that one of the people elected was the team rep and most quoted player during the Las Vegas missed game mess.


Monica Wright hasn't played in the league in two seasons. How long does a player stay in the union. In this list, she sticks out like a sore thumb.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would presume that's a central part of why they've just elected a new Secretary and a new Treasurer.



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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Maybe the sheer volume of flights and destinations makes it unworkable, but I always thought a sponsorship/partnetrship deal with a major airline would've made a lot of sense. Make somebody the Official Airline of the WNBA, give them a few ads somewhere, and rather than a basic lump sum get preferential treatment for the players to travel in return. Business Class rather than coach when possible, make sure all the exit row seats are reserved for players, and so on.

Maybe charters aren't possible, but improving the current situation might be.

That's a good idea, Richyyy.



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