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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 8:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Did the players ever seem this unhappy with their current pay in the past?


pilight



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Did the players ever seem this unhappy with their current pay in the past?


Sure.

In 1999 the players walked out of the negotiations. The draft got postponed because of the impasse.

In 2003 then WNBPA president Sonja Henning actually threatened a strike.

In the run up to the 2008 agreement Tina Thompson said it was not financially feasible to play in the W.

The last negotiation was the least contentious one we've had.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 9:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What do you guys think of this type of structure? Or maybe not "structure" but a few things I'd like to see. Mind you, I have no idea how feasible any of this is, but it would be interesting.

I'd to see a new "supermax" designation for franchise players in combination with more flexible free agency to encourage teams to spend this way. The two supermax players would max out at $200,000 each. Then you'd be allowed 3 max players at 130K each. After that, your max salary for any player would be 100K. The rookie wage structure would stay the same but go up 5%. Entry level players would go through a restricted free agency period whenever their initial contracts are up with the structure for that remaining the same. For players exiting their second contract of at least 3 years OR for players who are going to be 28 years old at the conclusion of the upcoming WNBA season, those players would be automatic UFAs with no coring allowed. This would allow more freedom of movement for players. I would also allow for offseason trading to begin on December 1st and for offseason free agency to begin on January 15th. To cover the league more effectively I would structure WNBA offseason pages on social media specifically designed to cover teams in the offseason. It would feature transaction coverage (which is why you'd allow to transactions to start sooner) and it would feature overseas coverage. Where possible, you could even do features on certain players in their overseas environments. Bonding with players is very important for WNBA fans and if you could provide something of an offseason connection with players from your favorite team, that can only help.

I'd also overhaul merchandising. Make it more accessible via social media, more diverse (in terms of more offerings in both team colors) and more reliable.

So that's my utopia. I'm not arguing that it's possible or logical. Just something I'd like to see along with a few ideas to help the league be more visible and make more money.

Oh and meant to add...any supermax free agent deal would involve a first round draft choice to the team losing the player as compensation. After a supermax offer, the next highest permissible offer per year would be 175K.

In terms of the structure I do think it would make decisions much more tricky for GMs. Do you give that 28-year-old player a supermax deal? Do you even give a 175K deal without draft compensation? A 28-year-old Fowles would have been worth it, even with draft choice compensation. Other 28-year-olds, maybe not.

And...the salary cap would obviously go up to keep pace with the above.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 9:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL why haven't you went up to the WNBA offices yet? I like how you think !!! Cool



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 10:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
NYL why haven't you went up to the WNBA offices yet? I like how you think !!! Cool


Thanks. My problem is that I think too much. It's what I do. Wink



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Randy



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PostPosted: 07/26/18 10:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd suggest something like that but simpler: Max pay for any player would be 250k, and salary cap at maybe 1.3-1.5M. Enough more to play 2 players the max plus make room for some increase for the other players. Minimum salaries and rookie deals all about the same but increased idk maybe 10-20%. The problem with the CBA now is that players make the same amount of money playing anywhere in the league and a lot less than overseas. So the star players can force trades to either their hometown (Charles, EDD), or whatever team is most likely to get them a ring (Fowles). This hurts the competitive balance, encourages tanking as the only way to get ahead, and diminishes fan interest in the home town team. If a team could pay Taurasi or Angel 250 per year they would have to think twice about taking the year off. Or if the Sky could have paid Fowles 250k, but the Lynx were already maxed out she might have given a lot more thought to staying in Chicago.

Coring hasn't worked - it has become a joke, so I'd just get rid of it, but make the max salaries high enough restrict player movement. Golden handcuffs, if you will.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 1:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You can solve a lot of problems if you just increase salaries by 50%. But I see nothing that would indicate that revenues would also increase. Supermax contracts just widen the divide between superstars and other players. I suspect owners would be willing to shift money among players to either flatten or widen the differential between players, so long as the overall cap is maintained.

Unless a buyer is found for the Liberty I have to believe the owners regarding their financial position. The Major sports leagues have franchises that continue to rise in value, creating a de facto source of revenue for owners. The WNBA owners don't have that.


Randy



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 6:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
You can solve a lot of problems if you just increase salaries by 50%. But I see nothing that would indicate that revenues would also increase. Supermax contracts just widen the divide between superstars and other players. I suspect owners would be willing to shift money among players to either flatten or widen the differential between players, so long as the overall cap is maintained.

Unless a buyer is found for the Liberty I have to believe the owners regarding their financial position. The Major sports leagues have franchises that continue to rise in value, creating a de facto source of revenue for owners. The WNBA owners don't have that.


The league got a big increase in revenue from the ESPN contract and made deals with Twitter and Fan Duel since the last CBA and the players got none of that money. So there is more revenue. Of course, the owners may not want to start losing as much money as they did before those deals came along.



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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 7:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does anyone know what major goals the players want to achieve with the new CBA?



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The twelve owners are in different financial circumstances. Some teams are owned by the filthy rich, others just by the rich. Some teams have decent crowds, some don't. Some have jersey sponsorships. some don't. If you make a deal that is something only 10 of 12 teams can handle, you end up with a 10 team league.




Last edited by tfan on 10/10/18 9:40 am; edited 2 times in total
ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So I know nothing about Chicago, really, but I'll make up stuff as an example:

The franchise does not make much money, despite several arenas and a lot of hard work. In fact, depending on how you do the accounting, it loses money.

It also has zero value on the open market, despite all that work, so there's no likelihood of making up for the millions of dollars in losses of previous years. (Even if the team is breaking even now or making a little money, the bottom line for its existence is deep in the red.)

So the players say "We'll strike if we don't get more money" -- and Michael Alter's rational response is "I have a business that has cost me millions and that I have invested a great deal of time and energy in for little or no return. The strike will make it even harder for me to make a profit and/or sell the franchise for any amount. So I think I'll just shut it down and move on to something else. I gave this a good shot, it didn't work out, and the strike is the last straw. I'm done."

Now if there are other willing owners out there, Alter's departure is not an issue, but there's no evidence that's the case. We know Joe Lacob wants a team, but we don't know if he wants to buy one, and the Liberty's struggles are not a good sign.

I agree the owners are taking more than they should, and the players should get more, but I don't see how the players have any leverage unless they strike -- and if they do that, they risk losing franchises (and jobs) and perhaps the entire league.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As with any sports work stoppage, the ultimate threat of the players is to start their own league. How much do the owners (and in this case the NBA) want to prevent that?

I've long said that separation from the NBA would be to the long term benefit of WBB, just like it was in tennis when the Original Nine separated from the USLTA back in 1970. The women will always be second class as long as the league is run by the men.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
As with any sports work stoppage, the ultimate threat of the players is to start their own league. How much do the owners (and in this case the NBA) want to prevent that?

I've long said that separation from the NBA would be to the long term benefit of WBB, just like it was in tennis when the Original Nine separated from the USLTA back in 1970. The women will always be second class as long as the league is run by the men.


Excellent point ... that, I think, is the biggest fear of NBA owners, because an independent league could conceivably serve as a platform for competition for the NBA.

So the women need to find a billionaire who is a creditable threat to support a women's league if the WNBA folds, and then they have a lever in negotiations ... it's not impossible.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So the women need to find a billionaire who is a creditable threat to support a women's league if the WNBA folds, and then they have a lever in negotiations ... it's not impossible.


You mean someone like Michael Alter. I don't know if he would break ranks like that, but that was the first name that came to mind.



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PostPosted: 07/27/18 4:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the outcome of the Liberty situation could play a key role in all this. If the Liberty fold a lot of players will be more worried about losing their jobs than the size of their paychecks. If the Liberty get purchased by a high profile owner or group it will make the league look like it is on the rise and players will want their piece of the action.

The flip side is - who would want to buy a franchise if the first issue they are going to have to deal with is a possible loss of an entire season? (There is an answer to this - might work out fine for Lacob whose arena won't be ready till 2020 anyway.)



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 11:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why substantially increasing WNBA player salaries is more complex than you think

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24247429/why-increasing-wnba-player-salaries-more-complex-think

Quote:
"Are we going to talk about the CBA, too?" Phoenix's Diana Taurasi asked.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Very good story ... interesting about European salaries.



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Hawkeye



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 5:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I really don't see the any extreme hardship involved in travelling commercial. I did so for many years for my job. Many people travel commercial all the time and with far more trips than WNBA players. Sure they are taller than most women, but lots of men who fly a lot are as tall as WNBA players. Certainly it is not fun but it would be a terrible PR problem if players went on strike because they wanted to fly charter. On top of that - some WNBA fans are probably riding a bus when they travel to another city and would love to fly commercial. If they want more money - fine people could understand that - everybody wants a raise. Going on strike to fly charter - would make the players look like a bunch of prima donnas.


Those men who are the same height as players, aren't players. Neither are you.


Hawkeye



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
pilight wrote:
As with any sports work stoppage, the ultimate threat of the players is to start their own league. How much do the owners (and in this case the NBA) want to prevent that?

I've long said that separation from the NBA would be to the long term benefit of WBB, just like it was in tennis when the Original Nine separated from the USLTA back in 1970. The women will always be second class as long as the league is run by the men.


Excellent point ... that, I think, is the biggest fear of NBA owners, because an independent league could conceivably serve as a platform for competition for the NBA.

So the women need to find a billionaire who is a creditable threat to support a women's league if the WNBA folds, and then they have a lever in negotiations ... it's not impossible.


BRING BACK THE ABL!!! :p


Randy



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
Randy wrote:
I really don't see the any extreme hardship involved in travelling commercial. I did so for many years for my job. Many people travel commercial all the time and with far more trips than WNBA players. Sure they are taller than most women, but lots of men who fly a lot are as tall as WNBA players. Certainly it is not fun but it would be a terrible PR problem if players went on strike because they wanted to fly charter. On top of that - some WNBA fans are probably riding a bus when they travel to another city and would love to fly commercial. If they want more money - fine people could understand that - everybody wants a raise. Going on strike to fly charter - would make the players look like a bunch of prima donnas.


Those men who are the same height as players, aren't players. Neither are you.


Well, if the players value first class flights or charter more than salary and they get it in the next CBA more power to them.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
Randy wrote:
I really don't see the any extreme hardship involved in travelling commercial. I did so for many years for my job. Many people travel commercial all the time and with far more trips than WNBA players. Sure they are taller than most women, but lots of men who fly a lot are as tall as WNBA players. Certainly it is not fun but it would be a terrible PR problem if players went on strike because they wanted to fly charter. On top of that - some WNBA fans are probably riding a bus when they travel to another city and would love to fly commercial. If they want more money - fine people could understand that - everybody wants a raise. Going on strike to fly charter - would make the players look like a bunch of prima donnas.


Those men who are the same height as players, aren't players. Neither are you.


How does being a basketball player change the experience of flying in an airplane.


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/01/18 6:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Randy wrote:
I really don't see the any extreme hardship involved in travelling commercial. I did so for many years for my job. Many people travel commercial all the time and with far more trips than WNBA players. Sure they are taller than most women, but lots of men who fly a lot are as tall as WNBA players. Certainly it is not fun but it would be a terrible PR problem if players went on strike because they wanted to fly charter. On top of that - some WNBA fans are probably riding a bus when they travel to another city and would love to fly commercial. If they want more money - fine people could understand that - everybody wants a raise. Going on strike to fly charter - would make the players look like a bunch of prima donnas.


Those men who are the same height as players, aren't players. Neither are you.


How does being a basketball player change the experience of flying in an airplane.


It doesn't, but the soreness and cramps that come from being packed into a too small space affect athletes to a greater degree than people in more sedentary jobs.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Randy wrote:
I really don't see the any extreme hardship involved in travelling commercial. I did so for many years for my job. Many people travel commercial all the time and with far more trips than WNBA players. Sure they are taller than most women, but lots of men who fly a lot are as tall as WNBA players. Certainly it is not fun but it would be a terrible PR problem if players went on strike because they wanted to fly charter. On top of that - some WNBA fans are probably riding a bus when they travel to another city and would love to fly commercial. If they want more money - fine people could understand that - everybody wants a raise. Going on strike to fly charter - would make the players look like a bunch of prima donnas.


Those men who are the same height as players, aren't players. Neither are you.


How does being a basketball player change the experience of flying in an airplane.


It doesn't, but the soreness and cramps that come from being packed into a too small space affect athletes to a greater degree than people in more sedentary jobs.


So what's the solution? Most franchises can't afford a charter, which means that the teams have to fly commercial. I'm not a frequent flyer, so I don't know, but maybe someone does ...

Are there enough first class and business seats available on every flight so players could upgrade? If so, how much more money would that be for 12 players over the course of a season?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Are there enough first class and business seats available on every flight so players could upgrade? If so, how much more money would that be for 12 players over the course of a season?


Chartering a jet would likely be cheaper than upgrading 12 people to first class (assuming only the players get upgraded). A heavy jet charters for about $8500/hour.



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PostPosted: 08/02/18 5:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe the sheer volume of flights and destinations makes it unworkable, but I always thought a sponsorship/partnetrship deal with a major airline would've made a lot of sense. Make somebody the Official Airline of the WNBA, give them a few ads somewhere, and rather than a basic lump sum get preferential treatment for the players to travel in return. Business Class rather than coach when possible, make sure all the exit row seats are reserved for players, and so on.

Maybe charters aren't possible, but improving the current situation might be.



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