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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 07/26/19 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
ClayK wrote:
One thing I hear a lot in talking to basketball fans and high school-age players and families is that "You barely make any money in the WNBA so don't even consider taking basketball seriously."

From that perspective, this kind of communication makes some sense, as it upgrades the image of the league, and women's basketball, in the eyes of people who really don't know anything about it.


so...do they think they will be making $100,000 (or even $50k if you want to go salary only) for five months work when they first get out of college?


Logic is not a strong point for parents of young players.

They lack information (thank you NCAA) and are bombarded with competing coaches from different sports trying to cherrypick the best athletes. Volleyball coaches, for example, will discount any professional opportunities for basketball in order to get elite athletes to play their sport; same with soccer.

Complaints about low pay and bad working conditions from the WNBA players obviously don't help correct these misperceptions -- though of course, the WNBA players need to do so to improve their chances of getting a better contract.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/21/19 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA players willing to sit out 2020 season over CBA issues

https://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/liberty/wnba-players-strike-cba-negotiations-1.35353661

Quote:
Liberty player Tina Charles told Newsday that “sitting out the season is always an option.” Long Island natives Hartley and Sue Bird have made similar comments.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 08/21/19 7:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One thing I hope gets recommended is playing teams in “series” style as much as venues can accommodate for it. A team would play two games against the same team in the same city in a span of 2-3 days. A win-win: Cuts down on travel costs, and players travel less & thus get more rest in between games. Not a foreign concept (baseball), and since there are only 17 home games, attendance shouldn’t be affected too much (some may fight me on that, but whatever).

Should be noted, the W did this very minimally back in 2013, but went away from it after that for reasons unclear. Still think it should be highly considered at a time like this.


toad455



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PostPosted: 08/21/19 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
WNBA players willing to sit out 2020 season over CBA issues

https://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/liberty/wnba-players-strike-cba-negotiations-1.35353661

Quote:
Liberty player Tina Charles told Newsday that “sitting out the season is always an option.” Long Island natives Hartley and Sue Bird have made similar comments.


A strike would nearly kill the league. Having the entire 2020 cancelled would guarantee it.



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sportsfan48



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PostPosted: 08/21/19 11:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
pilight wrote:
WNBA players willing to sit out 2020 season over CBA issues

https://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/liberty/wnba-players-strike-cba-negotiations-1.35353661

Quote:
Liberty player Tina Charles told Newsday that “sitting out the season is always an option.” Long Island natives Hartley and Sue Bird have made similar comments.


A strike would nearly kill the league. Having the entire 2020 cancelled would guarantee it.


I agree. I have been a season ticket holder since the beginning but if I sit out a season, I may find I don't miss it and never come back.


Randy



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PostPosted: 08/22/19 7:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So of the various tactics that have been used in the men's game - strike, lockout, or de-certification of the players union, what seems to be the most likely option in the event the negotiations prove unsuccessful?

Seems like there is a lot of anger on the player's side at least over money and travel. Could be a tense period of time.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/22/19 9:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There was also this piece recently, for a more positive slant: http://womenshoopsworld.com/2019/08/15/cba-talks-progressing-smoothly-players-union-says/

The problem the players always have in these negotiations is that, based on most of the information we have, the owners aren't making anything out of the league. In fact, most indications still suggest that most of them are losing money most years. So where's the leverage in threatening to strike? "If you don't give us what we want, we won't play!" "Well okay then, that saves me money. See ya."

I think that's why we've seen several consecutive CBAs with limited changes. The players ask for what they want, the owners give up whatever they were always planning to give up in the first place, and then the players eventually pretty much take that because that's what's there to be had. Individual players have plenty of power in this league, because they always have that "well I'll just play overseas only then" card; but the players en masse don't have much because the league isn't profitable. The owners obviously want to be involved on some level or they wouldn't still be owners, but it's not like they suddenly lose a vast income stream if the players all stay home.

I won't be surprised if we're without a CBA for a while, i.e. if they go past October 31st without a deal. They might even have to rearrange the offseason schedule a bit if the negotiations drag on. But I'll be surprised if we lose games. There's so little to be gained by anyone from a lockout/strike.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/22/19 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
There was also this piece recently, for a more positive slant: http://womenshoopsworld.com/2019/08/15/cba-talks-progressing-smoothly-players-union-says/

The problem the players always have in these negotiations is that, based on most of the information we have, the owners aren't making anything out of the league. In fact, most indications still suggest that most of them are losing money most years. So where's the leverage in threatening to strike? "If you don't give us what we want, we won't play!" "Well okay then, that saves me money. See ya."

I think that's why we've seen several consecutive CBAs with limited changes. The players ask for what they want, the owners give up whatever they were always planning to give up in the first place, and then the players eventually pretty much take that because that's what's there to be had. Individual players have plenty of power in this league, because they always have that "well I'll just play overseas only then" card; but the players en masse don't have much because the league isn't profitable. The owners obviously want to be involved on some level or they wouldn't still be owners, but it's not like they suddenly lose a vast income stream if the players all stay home.

I won't be surprised if we're without a CBA for a while, i.e. if they go past October 31st without a deal. They might even have to rearrange the offseason schedule a bit if the negotiations drag on. But I'll be surprised if we lose games. There's so little to be gained by anyone from a lockout/strike.


Excellent summary ...

But one thing the players need to avoid is claiming that $75,000 for five months work (if that) is not enough to live on. I've never made $75,000 in a 12-month span, and I have a feeling a lot of people have had the same experience.

And of course any comparisons to the NBA or other major spots aren't going to work either.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 08/22/19 10:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In contract negotiations, labor always has to express willingness to impose a work stoppage, as does management/ownership. Without that, a side has no leverage in the negotiations.

Collective bargaining always has work stoppage as a possibility. It is exceedingly rare that either side uses it. Same here.


pilight



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PostPosted: 08/22/19 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Both strikes and lockouts have been threatened in previous CBA negotiations



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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 08/23/19 6:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have been interested in what are the specific numbers the players want to achieve with this new CBA.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/27491558/wnba-players-union-creates-board-advocates



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 2:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A lot of players have expressed excitement about this advisory board on social media. I don't know enough about labor negotiations to understand its purpose or value.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 2:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation.



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 2:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
A lot of players have expressed excitement about this advisory board on social media. I don't know enough about labor negotiations to understand its purpose or value.


I'm thinking the board members will be posting a lot of tweets in favor of the players.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 3:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, 'Board of Advocates' sounds fairly pointless to me. Sort of like a low-end version of Washington lobbyists, but without anyone meaningful for them to go out and lobby.

Slightly concerning that the WNBPA would consider something like this necessary in the middle of CBA negotiations. Is there something significant that they're not getting that they think this group can help them achieve?



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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/29/19 3:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation.


As an aside, Jerry Stackhouse was formerly the National Basketball Players Association Vice-President. He also recently completed the Harvard Business School executive education program on the Business of Entertainment, Media, and Sports.

From the players' perspective, having a former executive with the NBA players' union certainly adds to the negotiation and bargaining processes.


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PostPosted: 08/29/19 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/MechelleV/status/1167179829004918792

Quote:
I was told the Board of Advocates is not directly assisting with the CBA. It's more general areas of advocacy. They were "identified because of their willingness to support the union in all areas, including marketing and licensing and our off the court philanthropic projects."



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/29/19 5:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I don't see any real sports management experience on that board. I would think understanding how teams can make money would be a big part of the evaluation process. That, in turn, informs your negotiations. This looks more like the board for a nonprofit social services organization or some kind of foundation.


As an aside, Jerry Stackhouse was formerly the National Basketball Players Association Vice-President. He also recently completed the Harvard Business School executive education program on the Business of Entertainment, Media, and Sports.

From the players' perspective, having a former executive with the NBA players' union certainly adds to the negotiation and bargaining processes.


Maybe, but the economics are very different. The NBA doesn't enter every season wondering if this could be their last.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 08/30/19 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
https://twitter.com/MechelleV/status/1167179829004918792

Quote:
I was told the Board of Advocates is not directly assisting with the CBA. It's more general areas of advocacy. They were "identified because of their willingness to support the union in all areas, including marketing and licensing and our off the court philanthropic projects."


The WNBPA's press release stated:

Union leadership, specifically the WNBPA Executive Committee, identified each Board member to share their guidance and unique perspectives in support of the WNBPA’s efforts to create meaningful changes in the working conditions of the world-class athletes who play in the WNBA.

https://wnbpa.com/press-release-wnbpa-board-of-advocates/

"Working conditions" is part of collective bargaining -- salaries, working conditions, benefits, other compensation, etc.

But the statement to Mechelle Voepel indicates otherwise.

And if there are efforts in marketing, licensing, etc. that relate to or are set forth in the CBA, it will necessarily involve the collective bargaining process.


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/13/19 8:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

HOW NNEKA OGWUMIKE BECAME MADAM PRESIDENT, THE FACE OF WNBA PLAYERS

https://theundefeated.com/features/nneka-oguwmike-los-angeles-sparks-president-of-wnba-players-association/

Quote:
There is always the possibility that both sides won’t come to an agreement before the start of the next season. Players such as seven-time All-Star Tina Charles said they’d consider sitting out should the sides fail to reach an agreement. Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike.

While Ogwumike acknowledged the possibility of a player strike as being a “reality to some degree,” it is not something she, or the executive committee, is hoping for or expecting.

“We want to play,” Ogwumike said.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 09/13/19 8:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike.

Um, she did? Explicitly, like that? Anyone got the link to that one, because I don't remember a quote like that.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/13/19 9:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
Last July, Phoenix Mercury guard Diana Taurasi said players wouldn’t be able to achieve pay equity without a strike.

Um, she did? Explicitly, like that? Anyone got the link to that one, because I don't remember a quote like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=104&v=54A05iPEjeo



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PostPosted: 09/13/19 9:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kind of an important difference between actually needing to strike and being willing to strike



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 09/13/19 9:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks, pilight. Yeah, she's much more even-handed with the context of the whole conversation than that line makes it sound. She wasn't really saying they had to, or that it would be necessary, just that if they were going to genuinely fight their corner then they needed to be willing to risk things.

The interesting point she made was that if they were going to make a big leap, the investment would have to come from the NBA. And she's right. Hell, it could be initiated by the NBPA if they wanted to. If they said "we'll take 49% of basketball related income rather than 50%, because that 1% should go to those underpaid WNBA players", W salaries would skyrocket.



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