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Wings @ Liberty - 7/08/18
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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Our only guard shooting over 40% is Hartley. Z and Boyd aren’t getting to the line like they have in past years either. In short, we are getting less from the complimentary players on the team than we have since 2014.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 11:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And while we are at, the Libs are dead last in opponents’ 3 point percentage and opponents’ free throw attempts.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 11:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Team in free fall? Been there. If it helps any I will loan you my old avatar until I need the next time I need it.



NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lol. You’re a good dude. I’m discouraged on one hand but I feel like there’s a lot of draftable players who immediately step in as an impact starter. I’d expect Nurse to have a big impact next year too and still think Stokes will rebound next year once she’s 100%.

Hoping that the Liberty also ensure there’s other defensive help besides Stokes out there if needed. DC has relied on lower-level free agent acquisitions to bolster their post defense (Sanders, Thomas). EM was even a second round pick. The Liberty need to be astute in that area if they don’t wind up drafting a post player.



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This season has become a Liberty Fans worst nightmare .

From having to travel to a high school gym after years at MSG
to watching our once proud team become the laughing stock of the WNBA

So we are a Lottery Team now so
why the hell doesn't Katie play more bench players
Let them show what they can do in more that 3:00 of garbage time
It wont hurt our record...let Tina rest some ...let the bench be seen
It can help us in the future and the players who might be picked up next year by other teams ...Katie owes them that !



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While I don’t disagree, she probably has to also weigh in on keeping certain veterans happy too. Possibly including Tina, who definitely gets along with and has chemistry with Piph. But this is one of the problems that comes from having unclear roles and oddly distributed minutes. With no transactions having been made to rectify those situations.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And I'd think it would be best if we scrapped some current players and brought in some new blood. We get our lottery pick, plus possibly the #14 pick. A trade of Rodgers and maybe Hartley for another first rounder(Los Angeles if Beard retires?)? We dump R. Allen, Coleman and Vaughn. Raincock returns, also.

We get:
Charles
Nurse
Prince
Boyd
Zahui B
Stokes
Zellous
Raincock
#4, #10, #14 picks



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe Z is a free agent. As is Tina, who might be cored unless she agrees to an extension at some point. I think keeping Piph on the team is vital to keeping Tina happy.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="toad455"]And I'd think it would be best if we scrapped some current players and brought in some new blood. We get our lottery pick, plus possibly the #14 pick. A trade of Rodgers and maybe Hartley for another first rounder(Los Angeles if Beard retires?) /quote]

I keep seeing trade proposals and I keep coming back to the same question. Why would another team's GM trade for Sugar Rodgers? Or Epiphanny Prince? Or even Bria Hartley (the youngest of the three)? I certainly could be proven wrong, but I am skeptical that these players have much trade value.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Sugar would have moderate trade value for an uptempo team that has a really good PG. Without someone to create for her consistently for her she winds up dribbling more than she should.

It’s debatable as far as how much value, but there’s teams that she would help off the bench. I still think they should have traded her after 2016, when her trade value was probably at its apex. After that season I was hoping for Deshields to come out and wanted to deal Rodgers as part of that deal. I got asked by someone who I won’t name why would I want to trade Sugar since DD can’t shoot? It’s not to criticize that person. It’s just to say that Sugar probably had some legitimate trade value back then.

Alex Montgomery, Carolyn Swords and Hartley/Vaughn each got traded in trades involving first rounders as well. So while it doesn’t seem likely, I wouldn’t abandon the notion that Sugar could fetch a 10th overall pick. Looking at DC, as annoying as Hartley can be, there’s basketball reasons why she would provide the Mystics with immediate help. TRP and Currie played a little backup PG the other night. As it is they could use another combo guard right now. But they’re also an injury away from disaster in a season where a championship run is wide open. On a team where EDD carries your offense, Hartley would be useful insurance against an injury to Cloud or Toliver.

One of NY’s problems is their starters mostly aren’t as good as other teams’ starters but they have a better bench than most teams. It’s hurt their role definition but you’d hope it should help their ability to deal. Unfortunately they haven’t shown the capability of doing that yet either.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

By the way after Liz’s T at the 2:10 mark of period 1 she throws an undetected punch at Zahui’s face. AZB got a T for a retaliatory clip two possessions later. It’s been that kind of season. Watch it and decide for yourselves. Maybe I’m just being a homer because I’m so frustrated about this season so often.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Lynx gave up Sugar for a swap of third round picks. That’s about the lowest amount a team can give up for a player to avoid the gamble of being picked up by another team on the waiver. If Reeve were to decide to trade the 2019 first round pick for Sugar, she would be run out of town. So that’s one team down.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Separate from that the Lynx also need a PG somewhat more, even if it’s an alternative to Robinson. I’m inclined to believe if they were to move a first rounder that’s the direction they would go in.



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snlMINAJ



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i think the change that needs to be made is the coach.
the 'fans' can't be the only ones baffled by the PT of players...

if they're not releasing statements re: kia nurse and kiah stokes - then its purely coach decision to play them very and increasingly sparingly.... and as others have said - its not like they're being benched in favor of other players playing lights out.


katie has got to go, its horrible.


jmvcity



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 7:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Should Herb Williams take over?

Maybe management has already given up on the season and will just let her finish this stint. Do they care about hanging a dark cloud on her HOF enshrinement just weeks away.?


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 7:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Honestly I think you give her another year in which hopefully she has learned from the experience. And this is coming from a person who thinks she's made mistakes. I'm not a fan of change every year. I think it leads to instability, and this change has already been a difficult one.

The only way I'd make a change is if they made Spoon the head coach. Short of that, I'd rather stay the course for one more year and see if they can make it work.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:


I've just looked at the current Liberty stats. Apart from Charles (33.9 minutes per game) and Allen (only 8.1), the other 10 Liberty players are between Zellous (24.2) and Stokes (13.1). This reminds me a little of playing on a junior high school rec league team where the priority was to make sure each kid got a good number of minutes. Sorry, but this is professional basketball. Hard to name teams that have had great success with one star and 10 other players sharing relatively equal minutes. And isn't possible that the confidence of ALL these 10 players (and Allen as well) is affected by somewhat limited, erratic, unpredictable use by their coach?

The weaknesses of the roster overwhelmingly aren't on Katie Smith. But the USE of that roster is completely under her control.


yes.



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NYSports56



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 4:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I believe that (at least temporarily) Katie Smith has wrecked Kia Nurse's confidence. Nurse started wonderfully, then suddenly her minutes were drastically reduced. That could be a jolt for any player, but even more so for a rookie. And it's harder to maintain a good shooting percentage from the outside when playing time is limited and erratic.


I didn't see it this way. To me, the reduction in time was warranted. Since we disagreed, I went back to look at her games after her 30+ point explosion to see what the stats say. Here they are:

Opponent, Minutes, Total FG, 3-pointers, Total Points
Mercury 23, 2-7, 0-4, 5 points
Sun 26, 4-9, 3-5, 11 points
Fever 28, 3-5, 2-4, 10 points
Aces 18, 1-7, 1-4, 3 points
Lynx 18, 2-5, 0-2, 6 points
Dream 28 4-12, 1-6, 11 points
Aces 22, 4-6, 1-3, 13 points
Mercury 19, 1-3, 1-3, 4 points
Mystics 22, 2-8, 1-6, 5 points
Sky 20, 3-6, 1-3, 9 points
Sky 10, 1-5 0-2, 4 points
Storm 10, 0-1, 0-0, 0 points
Mystics 8 0-2, 0-0, 0 points
Wings 12 2-8, 1-5, 6 points

Kia was pretty much playing close to 22 minutes a game right until the last 4 games. Sometimes less, sometimes more, usually dependent on how she was doing. The drastic reduction was for the last 4 games, after a 7 game stretch while Kia averaged 21 minutes a game where she went 6-27 from 3 point range (22%), and only had 2 games of the 7 where she wasn't a liability (13 against the Aces, and 9 points against the Sky). It is ironic that the reduction in minutes came immediately after the game against the Sky, but as a general rule, the reduction in production came before the reduction in minutes.

I think the reduction in minutes was justified by a coach who was trying to save the season. I don't think it's fair to blame Nurse's drop in production on the limited minutes the coach has given her. However, the time to throw in the towel is pretty soon if not already, and as soon as that's the case, her minutes need to be increased.


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

(extra post deleted)


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 11:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My problem with decreasing Nurse’s minutes is that:

-It came off a strong game against Chicago
-Even when struggling to score, she gives you energy, presence, good passing, some offensive rebounding and can get to the foul line when the offense flows through her.

If we’re going strictly by performance from game to game Sugar should play far less if the criteria is bad shooting. Like Nurse, Sugar plays D, but if she’s not scoring she literally gives you nothing else. Straight up, Kia Nurse is a better basketball player than Sugar Rodgers.

Also when Sugar and Nurse are on the floor together, the ball goes through Sugar 80% of the time if not more. Harder to score when you go from having the ball in your hands a lot (when Piph and Sugar were hurt) to not knowing when you’ll touch it.

And I’m glad you brought it up because I’ve kind of skirted around this point. For me personally, it’s not just the minutes. The on-court role was significantly reduced (without Nurse doing anything wrong) from the moment Sugar started playing decent minutes.

And with Nurse playing 20+ minutes the team is 4-7. When playing less the team is 1-7. Either way not good. But they’ve proven to be a better team when Nurse plays.



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 12:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

70 posts for a single game thread. 36 pages for the Liberty 2018 thread. Looks like despite everything Liberty fans are still engaged.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Honestly I think you give her another year in which hopefully she has learned from the experience. And this is coming from a person who thinks she's made mistakes. I'm not a fan of change every year. I think it leads to instability, and this change has already been a difficult one.

The only way I'd make a change is if they made Spoon the head coach. Short of that, I'd rather stay the course for one more year and see if they can make it work.


Spoon's college coaching career was not stellar. But at least part of that seemed to be inability to recruit. Maybe that isn't as important at the pro level, but jumping onto that boat just because she is who she is would seem to be setting up for another disaster. Maybe she could do it, maybe she learned from the past, maybe, maybe, maybe...but she hasn't proven anything in terms of coaching.



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
My problem with decreasing Nurse’s minutes is that:

-It came off a strong game against Chicago
-Even when struggling to score, she gives you energy, presence, good passing, some offensive rebounding and can get to the foul line when the offense flows through her.

If we’re going strictly by performance from game to game Sugar should play far less if the criteria is bad shooting. Like Nurse, Sugar plays D, but if she’s not scoring she literally gives you nothing else. Straight up, Kia Nurse is a better basketball player than Sugar Rodgers.

Also when Sugar and Nurse are on the floor together, the ball goes through Sugar 80% of the time if not more. Harder to score when you go from having the ball in your hands a lot (when Piph and Sugar were hurt) to not knowing when you’ll touch it.

And I’m glad you brought it up because I’ve kind of skirted around this point. For me personally, it’s not just the minutes. The on-court role was significantly reduced (without Nurse doing anything wrong) from the moment Sugar started playing decent minutes.

And with Nurse playing 20+ minutes the team is 4-7. When playing less the team is 1-7. Either way not good. But they’ve proven to be a better team when Nurse plays.


Well said. I completely agree, especially with your important point about the reduction in Nurse's on-court role. Which Katie Smith either encouraged or, at a minimum, watched and allowed. That's what I meant earlier when I spoke of Smith hurting Nurse's confidence.



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Honestly I think you give her another year in which hopefully she has learned from the experience. And this is coming from a person who thinks she's made mistakes. I'm not a fan of change every year. I think it leads to instability, and this change has already been a difficult one.

The only way I'd make a change is if they made Spoon the head coach. Short of that, I'd rather stay the course for one more year and see if they can make it work.


Spoon's college coaching career was not stellar. But at least part of that seemed to be inability to recruit. Maybe that isn't as important at the pro level, but jumping onto that boat just because she is who she is would seem to be setting up for another disaster. Maybe she could do it, maybe she learned from the past, maybe, maybe, maybe...but she hasn't proven anything in terms of coaching.


So Spoon has supposedly fixed Brittany Boyd's shot three times now ...

I know people in New York love her, but they loved Katie Smith too. Why would there be any reason to think Spoon will be an effective WNBA head coach -- aside from the fact she made that shot against Houston?



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 4:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Boyd’s shot IS actually better though. Nearly 50% from 11-21 feet. .375 from 22-26. The 0-2 from 27+ is obviously 2 length of court shots. A to-this-point career high of 78% from the line.

Her low FG% is much more the result of missed finishes than anything. Spoon may well not be meant to be a good head coach. But the development of the player coming off two major injuries in 3 years isn’t exemplary of that. Though if you’ve been watching (doubt it, though don’t blame you...they’re borderline unwatchable), Boyd’s PG play is significantly improved. Who gets the credit for the nearly 3:1 ATO? Boyd’s assist rate per minute is the highest in the WNBA. On the league’s second or third worst offensive team.

Not sure how you get the shot against Houston being the only determining factor. Just because you think Penicheiro was better, that doesn’t minimize that Spoon was one of the top 5 IQ players in the league in her career.

And not sure which New Yorkers loved Katie Smith but it wasn’t me or anyone else I know. Including this board. What I did do was take Laimbeer at his word that Katie was ready even though she doesn’t appear to be. In spite of that, I think she should get another year. Change for change sake seldom works. Plus with a less-than-100% Stokes, Laimbeer might have struggled with this bunch too. Not to this extent, but this team still would have struggled to finish .500.



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