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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 7:12 pm    ::: Wings @ Liberty - 7/08/18 Reply Reply with quote

White Plains, NY - 3:00 PM ET
TV: MSG

Video:
https://leaguepass.wnba.com

Game page:
http://www.wnba.com/game/20180708/DALNYL

ESPN Gamecast:
http://m.espn.com/wnba/gamecast?gameId=401018894



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A 12-game winning streak would put the Libs 17-13 entering the 4 game road trip to end the season. Just, you know, saying.

On a serious note I doubt Laimbeer would have accepted 5-13 Without serious lineup adjustments. And you can bet if Nurse is healthy she’d be playing.



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NYSports56



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 11:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's hard to know if Laimbeer would have played Nurse more. He definitely favored veterans over rookies when he was coaching the Liberty, so maybe not. Then again, he never had a team record this bad, so we really don't know how he coaches under these conditions. Maybe he'd get his rookies in more, maybe not.


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 12:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's hard to know if Laimbeer would have played Nurse more. He definitely favored veterans over rookies when he was coaching the Liberty, so maybe not. Then again, he never had a team record this bad, so we really don't know how he coaches under these conditions. Maybe he'd get his rookies in more, maybe not.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 9:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I doubt he’d have stood pat with this bunch, I can say that. And no way they’d have signed Coleman so just by default that would have meant a bigger role for Nurse early in the season...one that probably would have maintained itself. Particularly since she’s a Laimbeer type of player.

It just kills me that the league is so wide open this year and we wasted another of Tina’s prime years. It should be wide open next year too so who knows what can happen. I’d figure this group is getting blown up and should they continue to be lottery-worthy they’ll add a great player no matter what position they draft in. If Z’s contract is up that’s a max or near max slot they can use to fill a need if she doesn’t return. Personally I don’t think she will. Teams are winning with Natasha Howard and Latoya Sanders types in the post. Maybe that type of player will be available next year.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 9:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have to believe Laimbeer would have traded someone, likely one of our guards. Rodgers was his project, but she's been terrible this season. He always pulled these odd trades out of nowhere, so it would be interesting to see what he'd get from this bunch.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 9:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

💯. No way he’d have had all these 20-minute situations going on without making a change or two. Plum is turning a corner with Vegas. I’m still open to Hartley and Sugar for Plum. I doubt Bill would be now though.



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ChicagoAnnie



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zahui b and cambage dust up.

liz iniitiated it for sure...wrist to ZB throat isn't cool.


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

they have to restrain amanda 2 plays later. liz keeps flapping her gums.

kudos to both teams for staying cool while these 2 get in their feelings.


Colerr



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Liz is probably tired of being thrown around like a rag-doll. Laughing


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zahui B wasn't going to put up with Cambage's overacting and gets called for 2 fouls. Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i really don't like the pistachio uniforms... or, are they mint green? Laughing


Colerr



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Powers Rolling Eyes


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ChicagoAnnie wrote:
i really don't like the pistachio uniforms... or, are they mint green? Laughing


They're "Seafoam Green" Laughing



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stevens is so freaking good.


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Colerr wrote:
Liz is probably tired of being thrown around like a rag-doll. Laughing


Liz takes as much as she gives out though



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Colerr



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ChicagoAnnie wrote:
Stevens is so freaking good.


She should be starting instead of Johnson. IMO.


Shades



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls



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ucbart



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i don't know if playing at Dallas' faster pace is good for NY.


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Colerr wrote:
Powers Rolling Eyes


Laughing Laughing Laughing


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ucbart wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


Dont know why its a reaction to my post but right now they are shit WITH her. So thats a problem



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

47-37 DAL at the half

Diggins 13 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast

Charles 17 pts, 7 reb, 1 ast



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cambage a nonfactor today and the Wings are making this look easy. Without Charles today, we really would look like the worst team in Liberty history.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bad shooters missing 3s is one thing. Good ones missing open 3s is another. Nurse is down to about 25% from 3 after shooting nearly 45 in college. While you’d expect a drop off, she’s obviously a better shooter than she’s shown. The Libs are 1-11 from 3, with Tina’s being the only make, on generally open 3s from shooters you’d classify at least as decent.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
ucbart wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


Dont know why its a reaction to my post but right now they are shit WITH her. So thats a problem


Def a problem but it’s not her fault. She plays hard. She’s having an excellent season. She’s led substandard teams to 20+ wins like 5 times in her career. What more can she do?



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don’t think I’ve ever been this down as a Libs fan. Even in ‘06 when we lost VJ, Crystal and Baranova it was no secret we’d be terrible. Adding Nurse and Boys to a 22-win team shouldn’t result in 5-13 with horrible defense from a team where defense was its staple. Even people who thought the team wasn’t that good couldn’t have envisioned an implosion this great.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great first half from Skylar...It's great to see the Wings role players stepping up,especially Stevens and Gray....How far Dallas goes in the playoffs will greatly depend on those two players and G.Johnson.

I said the Liberty would miss the playoffs before the season started...So i'm not surprised at how bad they're playing.


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cambage is just such a woman mountain! Every one else look like midgets next to her.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cambage heating up now. This one's over.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Skylar is so good


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That was a great outlet by Cambage, damn


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Zahui B trying to keep the Liberty in this.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ucbart wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


Dont know why its a reaction to my post but right now they are shit WITH her. So thats a problem


Def a problem but it’s not her fault. She plays hard. She’s having an excellent season. She’s led substandard teams to 20+ wins like 5 times in her career. What more can she do?


Nothing. She does everything that she can but they need more talent. Everybody else has a big 2nd scorer or more talent overall.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

whooo... when skylar is ON, she is ON.


ucbart



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
ucbart wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


Dont know why its a reaction to my post but right now they are shit WITH her. So thats a problem


Sorry, I was reading your post and then I thought of it. Yes, they are shit with her, but not 0-for the season like they would be without her.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
ucbart wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Definitely Cambage's fault on that one. You can't arm-bar your defender's throat. Cambage falls down like a little girl after Zahui takes offense.


Yeah i agree. Cambage knows how to exaggerate her falls


Tina gets to get my vote as "her team would be royally !@#$%# without her."


Dont know why its a reaction to my post but right now they are shit WITH her. So thats a problem


+1 Michelle



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty commentators were struggling to think of comparables to Skylar and really, who is there that is comparable to her? Basically every scoring point guard these guys is a long-range gunner/jump shooter in general while Skylar is a driver to the rim first and foremost. John Wall is the only real current comparable I can think of and even that feels quite off.


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
The Liberty commentators were struggling to think of comparables to Skylar and really, who is there that is comparable to her? Basically every scoring point guard these guys is a long-range gunner/jump shooter in general while Skylar is a driver to the rim first and foremost. John Wall is the only real current comparable I can think of and even that feels quite off.


I like the Westbrook comparison. Lead guard who can score pass and rebound at a high level. Micheal Westbrook = Skylar Diggins



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 3:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
The Liberty commentators were struggling to think of comparables to Skylar and really, who is there that is comparable to her? Basically every scoring point guard these guys is a long-range gunner/jump shooter in general while Skylar is a driver to the rim first and foremost. John Wall is the only real current comparable I can think of and even that feels quite off.


I like the Westbrook comparison. Lead guard who can score pass and rebound at a high level. Micheal Westbrook = Skylar Diggins

Westbrook is a good one but as someone who's not really a fan of him for various reasons it leaves a bad taste in my mouth Laughing


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 4:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
The Liberty commentators were struggling to think of comparables to Skylar and really, who is there that is comparable to her? Basically every scoring point guard these guys is a long-range gunner/jump shooter in general while Skylar is a driver to the rim first and foremost. John Wall is the only real current comparable I can think of and even that feels quite off.


I like the Westbrook comparison. Lead guard who can score pass and rebound at a high level. Micheal Westbrook = Skylar Diggins

Westbrook is a good one but as someone who's not really a fan of him for various reasons it leaves a bad taste in my mouth Laughing


Same here Laughing



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 11:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I sure do miss the Good Ol' Days when the Liberty were losing CLOSE games.

The Liberty aren't just missing from the perimeter. They are taking wide open shots, at appropriate times within the framework of the offense. And they're still missing. Everybody but Tina was 0 for (lots) from 3 point range until Prince made one late in the first half.

It's hard to blame Katie's Xs and Os when the play works and the players keep missing.

It was one of Zahui B's best games. She provided needed offense, and also played the best post defense I have ever seen her play against Cambage on several possessions. The technical foul was tough; the Liberty can't afford to give away points. I can understand how she was boiling aleady because of the incident with Cambage on the other side of the court. The way I saw that interaction, Cambage delivered a blow worthy of the flagrant, and then flopped. But c'mon, Amanda; you know the rules and you know refs call technicals!

I have no excuse for Zellous's technical, but enough already! Again, sometimes the officials make bad calls.


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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
I sure do miss the Good Ol' Days when the Liberty were losing CLOSE games.


No in the "Good Ol' Days" The Liberty were winning close games...in MSG

Time for Katie to give the bench more playing time ...
we are a Lottery team !



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 1:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lib Fan wrote:
NYSports56 wrote:
I sure do miss the Good Ol' Days when the Liberty were losing CLOSE games.


No in the "Good Ol' Days" The Liberty were winning close games...in MSG


I know. I just thought it would be ironic to refer back to a losing streak as "the Good Ol' Days." Back then, not too many people knew exactly how bad this team would be. I know I didn't.


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PostPosted: 07/09/18 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
I sure do miss the Good Ol' Days when the Liberty were losing CLOSE games.

The Liberty aren't just missing from the perimeter. They are taking wide open shots, at appropriate times within the framework of the offense. And they're still missing. Everybody but Tina was 0 for (lots) from 3 point range until Prince made one late in the first half.

It's hard to blame Katie's Xs and Os when the play works and the players keep missing.

It was one of Zahui B's best games. She provided needed offense, and also played the best post defense I have ever seen her play against Cambage on several possessions. The technical foul was tough; the Liberty can't afford to give away points. I can understand how she was boiling aleady because of the incident with Cambage on the other side of the court. The way I saw that interaction, Cambage delivered a blow worthy of the flagrant, and then flopped. But c'mon, Amanda; you know the rules and you know refs call technicals!

I have no excuse for Zellous's technical, but enough already! Again, sometimes the officials make bad calls.


Zahui’s post D is better than people think it is. It’s stunning how many wide open shots they missed, indicating the problem is definitely in their heads. Meanwhile, it seems teams rarely miss open 3s against us and make a good amount of contested ones.

This is, quite honestly, unchartered territory for a Libs team that actually has enough good players to be doing better. On an Indy broadcast early this year Debbie Antonelli said she thought the Liberty could go to the finals. Other coaches have said (Brian Agler) that the Liberty are better than their record.

Even Nurse, who is a legit 40% candidate from 3, is shooting in the 20s. Say what you want about Piph or Sugar, but Nurse is an excellent shooter. Piph’s career 3 point % is actually pretty good too. It’s a virus that has spread at this point.

Where I do hold Katie accountable is all those crazy lineups early in the year along with lessening Nurse’s minutes earlier in the year (maybe she’s bricking 3s because she’s tight). It’s all now spiraled out of control. Their D is awful too, which falls on the coach.

And nobody could have thought the Libs would be 11th out of 12 in defensive points per possession through 19 games. Nobody. Nobody. Ugh.



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've also wondered how playing in Westchester affects them. Do they all still live in NYC and have to do an hour+ commute for practice and games?



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 10:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I've also wondered how playing in Westchester affects them. Do they all still live in NYC and have to do an hour+ commute for practice and games?


They have always lived in the same area that they practice. It’s much more convenient now.



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Last edited by Shades on 07/09/18 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 07/09/18 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In the winter and as the season began, I was one of the more skeptical Liberty fans posting here. I found some fans' view of the team overly optimistic. But I certainly didn't expect this horrendous first half of the season. Or that the team would be doing so badly defensively.

I believe that (at least temporarily) Katie Smith has wrecked Kia Nurse's confidence. Nurse started wonderfully, then suddenly her minutes were drastically reduced. That could be a jolt for any player, but even more so for a rookie. And it's harder to maintain a good shooting percentage from the outside when playing time is limited and erratic.

I've just looked at the current Liberty stats. Apart from Charles (33.9 minutes per game) and Allen (only 8.1), the other 10 Liberty players are between Zellous (24.2) and Stokes (13.1). This reminds me a little of playing on a junior high school rec league team where the priority was to make sure each kid got a good number of minutes. Sorry, but this is professional basketball. Hard to name teams that have had great success with one star and 10 other players sharing relatively equal minutes. And isn't possible that the confidence of ALL these 10 players (and Allen as well) is affected by somewhat limited, erratic, unpredictable use by their coach?

The weaknesses of the roster overwhelmingly aren't on Katie Smith. But the USE of that roster is completely under her control.



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PostPosted: 07/09/18 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

By the way, separate from everything, Diggins has shot 53.3% against NY from 3 this year while shooting 31.5% overall. Including the two times she she got fouled yesterday shooting 3s and after awhile you say the Libs are snakebit or teams just smell blood against them. A lot of those shots were contested in transition. Some were also because Hartley on D scares nobody. But we’ve seen a lot of crazy 3 point outbursts against us this year. Contested, uncontested. Great shooters, so-so ones. In transition. Tough shots. Open ones. It feels like it doesn’t matter. Plus even the missed threes often result in offensive rebounds which doesn’t help.

To Bob’s point I think I was the fan who picked them highest (5th) but even I recognized that with the crazy talent in the league this year, their fortunes were unpredictable. Sadly, the Libs have not capitalized on the league’s parity, the parity being expected.

And yeah. The magnitude of this implosion. Couldn’t have been expected. It feels like even when we play good D it isn’t enough. Dallas made tough shots yesterday. It stlll resulted in 97 points. Plus, Diggins’ hot shooting helped set up even more efficiency in her penetrations than usual. Katie clearly adjusted the way NY defended her throughout the course of the game. They were good adjustments in my opinion. Getting out on her earlier. Some high pick and roll hedges. Still didn’t help. I’m just shaking my head at this point. Even when stuff is implemented and executed properly the end result just isn’t there.



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