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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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 Posted: 07/15/18 12:18 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Even mediocre Angel McCoughtry is a top 20 player, it will be absurd for her to not be in the all-star game. |
Hayes is putting up better numbers then her so and is having a better season overall... |
I mean, unless you're using "better numbers" as a euphemism for "scores more points," that's not actually true. Hayes is averaging more points, but McCoughtry is averaging more everything else.
It's a little like saying that Courtney Williams is "putting up better numbers" than Alyssa Thomas: it's only true if you think that only one of the 'numbers' counts. |
Lol Hayes has been the best player for the Dream in the first half of the season. Half of the games Angel has played like she doesnt care one bit..
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Shades
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| Posted: 07/15/18 1:08 pm ::: |
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Hayes is taking more ownership this season, but that’s offset by rolling her ankle and missing a bunch of games.
I think when it comes to McCoughtry and Parker and possibly others of their size and age, they know the team relies on them for big minutes. They only have so much energy in the tank at that age to give, so they kind of pick their spots to use that energy and it can come off as lazy or disinterested.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 07/15/18 1:15 pm ::: |
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| Michelle89 wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
Hayes is putting up better numbers then her so and is having a better season overall... |
I mean, unless you're using "better numbers" as a euphemism for "scores more points," that's not actually true. Hayes is averaging more points, but McCoughtry is averaging more everything else.
It's a little like saying that Courtney Williams is "putting up better numbers" than Alyssa Thomas: it's only true if you think that only one of the 'numbers' counts. |
Lol Hayes has been the best player for the Dream in the first half of the season. Half of the games Angel has played like she doesnt care one bit.. |
Let the record reflect that my rebuttal of the "better numbers" statement has gone unrefuted.
I'll stipulate that an argument can be made that Hayes has been a better player than McCoughtry this season overall**. But, in making that argument, it needs to be acknowledged that she has benefited from McCoughtry being back.
Put it this way, if Hayes has surpassed McCoughtry, then the other coaches in the league haven't figured it out yet. Ask yourself how many teams, when they're in their set defense, put their best wing defender on Hayes, instead of McCoughtry? How do you explain that? Hayes had a breakout season last year, made the All-Star team for the first time, and now she's back to being guarded by the other team's second-best wing defender; you don't think that that has contributed in her upswing in efficiency, this year from last year? Or the fact that she is usually no longer guarding the other team's best wing player? These things don't occur in a vacuum.
** I mean, I wouldn't make it, because I don't believe it to be true. But still...
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 07/15/18 1:17 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| I think when it comes to McCoughtry and Parker and possibly others of their size and age, they know the team relies on them for big minutes. They only have so much energy in the tank at that age to give, so they kind of pick their spots to use that energy and it can come off as lazy or disinterested. |
I also think that McCoughtry has super-weird body language, that sometimes makes her come off like she's less engaged than she actually is.
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Shades
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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| Posted: 07/16/18 5:04 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
Hayes is putting up better numbers then her so and is having a better season overall... |
I mean, unless you're using "better numbers" as a euphemism for "scores more points," that's not actually true. Hayes is averaging more points, but McCoughtry is averaging more everything else.
It's a little like saying that Courtney Williams is "putting up better numbers" than Alyssa Thomas: it's only true if you think that only one of the 'numbers' counts. |
Lol Hayes has been the best player for the Dream in the first half of the season. Half of the games Angel has played like she doesnt care one bit.. |
Let the record reflect that my rebuttal of the "better numbers" statement has gone unrefuted.
I'll stipulate that an argument can be made that Hayes has been a better player than McCoughtry this season overall**. But, in making that argument, it needs to be acknowledged that she has benefited from McCoughtry being back.
Put it this way, if Hayes has surpassed McCoughtry, then the other coaches in the league haven't figured it out yet. Ask yourself how many teams, when they're in their set defense, put their best wing defender on Hayes, instead of McCoughtry? How do you explain that? Hayes had a breakout season last year, made the All-Star team for the first time, and now she's back to being guarded by the other team's second-best wing defender; you don't think that that has contributed in her upswing in efficiency, this year from last year? Or the fact that she is usually no longer guarding the other team's best wing player? These things don't occur in a vacuum.
** I mean, I wouldn't make it, because I don't believe it to be true. But still... |
Im not talking about surpassing Angel. Im talking about Hayes having a better overall season then Angel. Doesnt mean she is a better player in the end. Based on other seasons and Angels potential, teams will always have their best perimeter defender on Angel
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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 07/16/18 5:45 pm ::: |
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LOL I asked this same question in the power rankings thread along with this link as well .
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 07/16/18 7:34 pm ::: |
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| Michelle89 wrote: |
| Im not talking about surpassing Angel. Im talking about Hayes having a better overall season then Angel. |
But that then begs the question, how are you quantifying "better season," for the purposes of this conversation? I'll stipulate that she's having a more efficient season scoring but, again, there are factors which I would say can account for that, which don't necessarily have anything to do with Hayes herself. I personally wouldn't say that she's having a better season than McCoughtry in any other aspect of the game, either individually, or in the aggregate, so how just much weight are you giving the scoring efficiency to your final grade?
I suspect part of the disconnect to be that you appear to value scoring efficiency from star players way more than I do.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/16/18 8:22 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
LOL I asked this same question in the power rankings thread along with this link as well . |
If DT did get it, that’s pretty impressive considering the Merc haven’t been home in a month? Did Kobe tweet for her again?
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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| Posted: 07/16/18 9:18 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
LOL I asked this same question in the power rankings thread along with this link as well . |
If DT did get it, that’s pretty impressive considering the Merc haven’t been home in a month? Did Kobe tweet for her again? |
I interpret the headline as Taurasi & Stewart headline the author's All-Star picks.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 07/16/18 9:21 pm ::: |
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My all-star picks team by team
Atl
Hayes
McCoughtry
Chi
Quigley
Conn
A. Thomas
C. Ogwumike
Dallas
Diggins-Smith
Cambage
Indy
No One (sorry)
LA
Parker
N. Ogwumike
C. Gray
LV
Wilson
McBride
Minny
Fowles
Moore
(here's the rub I agree that all Minny starters deserve legacy and home tam consideration for the fans, but it will end up knocking other deserving candidates off the list).
NY
Charles
PX
Griner
Taurasi
Seattle
Stewart
Loyd
Bird
Wash
EDD
Toliver
So if Whalen, Augustus and Brunson make the team
the three player they knock off my list would be IMO
Quigley
A. Thomas
Toliver
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 07/16/18 10:03 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
Indy
No One (sorry)
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Now that the powers that be have wrestled complete control from the fans, I have a feeling they’ll make a concerted effort to rep every team, even Indiana.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 07/16/18 11:25 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
Indy
No One (sorry)
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Now that the powers that be have wrestled complete control from the fans, I have a feeling they’ll make a concerted effort to rep every team, even Indiana. |
but then who do you go with
K. Mitchell or Dupree?
that would also imply one of the Chicago players has to stay. If the powers that be are removing the power from the fans does Minny only get 2 instead of 5, or maybe 3? if so does Whalen get the vote over Augustus and Brunson?
starting with 12 one from each team
Now I'm trying to predict what the league would want
McCoughtry, Quigley, C. Ogwumike, Diggins-Smith, K. Mitchell, C. Parker, Wilson, Moore, Charles, Taurasi, Stewart, EDD.
Ok that leaves 10
Hayes, Cambage, N. Ogwumike, C. Gray, McBride, Fowles, Whalen, Griner, Loyd, Bird
OK That looks pretty close if you are trying to combine what the league and fans would want
I'm still a little iffy with Quigley over Deshields
If there has to be someone from Indy I feel like K. Mitchell is a more exciting pick than Dupree.
And I feel like Washington or Conn might deserve a 2nd player but if A. Thomas and/or Toliver slide in who gets dropped?
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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| Posted: 07/16/18 11:34 pm ::: |
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I don't believe each team is required to be represented, so I expect Indiana to have zero All-Stars.
I don't believe the Lynx will have more than 2 All-Stars unless the coaches/players are as crazy as the fans in their voting, but if they somehow end up with a 3rd All-Star it should be Brunson.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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Location: Holland
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| Posted: 07/17/18 4:35 am ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| Im not talking about surpassing Angel. Im talking about Hayes having a better overall season then Angel. |
But that then begs the question, how are you quantifying "better season," for the purposes of this conversation? I'll stipulate that she's having a more efficient season scoring but, again, there are factors which I would say can account for that, which don't necessarily have anything to do with Hayes herself. I personally wouldn't say that she's having a better season than McCoughtry in any other aspect of the game, either individually, or in the aggregate, so how just much weight are you giving the scoring efficiency to your final grade?
I suspect part of the disconnect to be that you appear to value scoring efficiency from star players way more than I do. |
To me Hayes has been more consistent this season. Also in the beginning of the season in their first 6 games or so she was their go to player and she won the game for them. To me it seemed like it went downhill after she got injured
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 07/17/18 10:27 am ::: |
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But, again, that argument only makes sense if you're giving scoring the overwhelming majority of the weight. And even then, how are you defining "consistent"? Tiffany Hayes has scored in double figures in all but two games. Angel McCoughtry has scored in double figures in all but [checks notes] two games. Looks pretty consistent to me.
Also, it's not like McCoughtry just suddenly started averaging more rebounds and steals than Hayes, after Hayes turned her ankle; she's been doing that all season. McCoughtry did pass Hayes in assists in the last couple of weeks, but I would say that has less to do with Hayes' injury, and more to do with Collen finally figuring out something that I'd said weeks ago: that, since Atlanta doesn't have a "pure" point guard, the Dream's offense flows better when it runs through McCoughtry, even when she's not hitting her shots. Hayes has been more consistently efficient, and that's really been it. And it's not even that I think that efficiency doesn't matter: it's just that, IMO, it matters more from role players than it does from stars.
As far as Hayes winning games for Atlanta early, I've just spent some time going over their first ten games or so, and that doesn't really seem to hold up: the Sky game, I don't think that you can say that any one player "won" the game in an eighteen-point blowout. They literally beat the Lynx on McCoughtry's game-winner. The Sun and Aces games were back-and-forth, which brings us to the Storm game. Now, in fairness, I'd be willing to stipulate that Hayes did win that game for Atlanta, but that now leads me to wonder if you're evaluating Hayes primarily through the prism of how she played against your team?
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/17/18 1:59 pm ::: |
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| You want other stats where Hayes has outperformed McCoughtry? 22 vs 19 PER; .591 vs .501 true shooting %; .511 vs .427 eFG%; turnovers rate that's three points lower; offensive rating with Hayes on the floor is 116 to McCoughtry's 99; Win Shares is 2.6 vs 1.7; Win Shares per 48 is .253 vs .139 - the list goes on. You just have to go slightly beyond the old counting stats. |
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 07/17/18 2:21 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| You want other stats where Hayes has outperformed McCoughtry? 22 vs 19 PER; .591 vs .501 true shooting %; .511 vs .427 eFG%; turnovers rate that's three points lower; offensive rating with Hayes on the floor is 116 to McCoughtry's 99; Win Shares is 2.6 vs 1.7; Win Shares per 48 is .253 vs .139 - the list goes on. You just have to go slightly beyond the old counting stats. |
Most of those stats are directly related to efficiency, which I have already stipulated. And I sincerely doubt that the list does, in fact, go on, significantly beyond what you've already posted.
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Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 07/17/18 2:32 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| And I sincerely doubt that the list does, in fact, go on, significantly beyond what you've already posted. |
Assist/Turnover rate, free throw rate, raw plus/minus, net plus/minus, net rating...
(at this point I'm admittedly running out of categories available on websites I can access) |
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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| Posted: 07/17/18 3:36 pm ::: |
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| The efficiency gap is so huge that it does make up for the counting stats difference imo. 50% TS is awful...
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 07/17/18 4:44 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| And I sincerely doubt that the list does, in fact, go on, significantly beyond what you've already posted. |
Assist/Turnover rate, free throw rate, raw plus/minus, net plus/minus, net rating...
(at this point I'm admittedly running out of categories available on websites I can access) |
Those stats are also directly related to efficiency.
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Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 07/17/18 4:45 pm ::: |
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| Aladyyn wrote: |
| The efficiency gap is so huge that it does make up for the counting stats difference imo. |
Hard disagree, but I'll stipulate that I am in the minority on that opinion.
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WNBA 09
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SpaceJunkie
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lynxmania
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| Posted: 07/17/18 6:08 pm ::: |
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She didn’t. Maya declined being a captain. Maya was the top vote getter.
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