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adamj95



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:04 pm    ::: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

Who are your top 5 PG's in WNBA history?

Mine are:
1A. Lindsay Whalen
1B. Sue Bird
3. Ticha Penicheiro
4. Teresa Weatherspoon
5. Courtney Vandersloot



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:08 pm    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

1. Bird
2. Whalen
3. Hammon
4. Penicheiro
5. Weatherspoon

My overall list (not limited to the WNBA):

1. Edwards
2. Lieberman
3. Bird
4. Staley
5. Whalen



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:11 pm    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Whalen
3. Hammon
4. Penicheiro
5. Weatherspoon

Same for me.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 9:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.


Sentimental value. She was the PG on the best team in the very 1st yr. There was no ASG that year and if there were she might have been included.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.


Sentimental value. She was the PG on the best team in the very 1st yr. There was no ASG that year and if there were she might have been included.

Which stat would have made her an All-Star?
Her 5.8 ppg?
3.1 apg?
Her 36% shooting?
28% from 3?
40% free throws?



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 05/23/18 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.


Sentimental value. She was the PG on the best team in the very 1st yr. There was no ASG that year and if there were she might have been included.

Which stat would have made her an All-Star?
Her 5.8 ppg?
3.1 apg?
Her 36% shooting?
28% from 3?
40% free throws?


Her Heart & Determination and leadership, i said might give her a break shes my #2 still.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 12:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I love Hammon, but was she a point guard?

Or was she a SG who had the offense run through her in the half-court and therefor got a lot of assists similar to Cappie in PX and NY with K. Miller and L. Mitchell as PG, or K. Smith in Detroit with E. Powell?

Most of Hammon's career she was on the floor with another PG

IN NY Wheatherspoon (and possible L. Moore after Weaherspoon in the weird years for NY though I am struggling with the time period so could be wrong.)

In SA first with H. Darling and for most of the years after with D. Robinson.


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 12:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.

Could say a similar thing about Weatherspoon IMO. She held down a starting spot for a long time, but in an ideal world she wouldn't be in all all-time top 5 list. The fact that a lot of people have her there says to me that this league hasn't been blessed with too many great PGs over its history. Especially in the east.

Bird
Whalen
Penicheiro
Vandersloot
Weatherspoon



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readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 1:01 am    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
Who are your top 5 PG's in WNBA history?

Mine are:
1A. Lindsay Whalen
1B. Sue Bird
3. Ticha Penicheiro
4. Teresa Weatherspoon
5. Courtney Vandersloot


Mark my words: Chelsea Gray's gonna knock out Spoon.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 1:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
1. Bird
2. Perrott
3. Whalen
4. Penecheiro
5. Hammon

Why Perrot? She was a servicable point guard on an excellent team, and was even a bit of a crowd favorite, but she wasn't even an all-star caliber player.

Could say a similar thing about Weatherspoon IMO. She held down a starting spot for a long time, but in an ideal world she wouldn't be in all all-time top 5 list. The fact that a lot of people have her there says to me that this league hasn't been blessed with too many great PGs over its history. Especially in the east.

Bird
Whalen
Penicheiro
Vandersloot
Weatherspoon

Spoon was the defensive player of the year 2 times, lead the league in assists one year, was a 4x all-star and a 4x all-wnba 2nd team. She was a top 15 @15 and top 20 @ 20. Comparing her to Perrot (who I was actually being kind to in my description) is like comparing Spoon to Samatha Prahalis.

In fact, let's play who's who:
Player 1

8.4 ppg
3.5 apg
2.5 rpg
35.2 fg%
25.7 3p%
87.1 ft%
2.4 TO

Player 2

7.2 ppg
4.0 apg
2.9 rpg
38.7 fg%
27.5 3pt%
59.8 ft%
2.5 TO



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 2:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I stand by my thoughts on her. The fact that she was a 4x All Star for the east only reinforces my point.
Excellent player for her club, but very fortunate to be in that list of 20. A nice sentimental pick.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 2:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I stand by my thoughts on her. The fact that she was a 4x All Star for the east only reinforces my point.
Excellent player for her club, but very fortunate to be in that list of 20. A nice sentimental pick.

So we discount her defense? 2x DPOY is a strong addition to a résumé. And All-WNBA takes a weak eastern conference out of the picture. And she was in the list of top 15 as well. She was an excellent PG, beyond simple "sentiment".

Perrot has no standing at all to be on such a list, as she was mediocre at best and had she not had the tragic end that she did would have faded into relative obscurity.



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 3:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still had her in my top 5 in case you missed it. My point is not that Weatherspoon sucks, but that the pool of competition is pretty weak for a league that has been going for 20+ years.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 3:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, I agree that there has not been a plethora of transcendent PGs in the league. I was just taking issue with the thought that Spoon was only "serviceable" and comparable to Perrot. Because while there are very few transcendent ones, there have been more than a few serviceable ones that I would rank higher than Perrot, who had a career remarkably similar to Sammy P.



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 7:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shannon Johnson was a four time all star and three time All WNBA selection and had much better numbers than Spoon. Why isn't she under consideration?



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 7:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shannon Johnson was a four time all star and three time All WNBA selection and had much better numbers than Spoon. Why isn't she under consideration?

I think she is. I was going to name her as an honourable mention, as well as Dawn Staley.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 8:02 am    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
Who are your top 5 PG's in WNBA history?

Mine are:
1A. Lindsay Whalen
1B. Sue Bird
3. Ticha Penicheiro
4. Teresa Weatherspoon
5. Courtney Vandersloot


Mark my words: Chelsea Gray's gonna knock out Spoon.


Spoon will be out before it comes to that. I might put Skylar Diggins ahead of her now.



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Weatherspoon doesn't play in New York, she's not on the list.

If Penicheiro played in New York, she would have been ranked higher.

Perrot should not even be in the discussion.

Hammon was not a point guard, but again, she played in New York.



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 10:36 am    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
Who are your top 5 PG's in WNBA history?

Mine are:
1A. Lindsay Whalen
1B. Sue Bird
3. Ticha Penicheiro
4. Teresa Weatherspoon
5. Courtney Vandersloot


Mark my words: Chelsea Gray's gonna knock out Spoon.


Spoon will be out before it comes to that. I might put Skylar Diggins ahead of her now.

Yeeeeah, no guard has enough defensive impact to offset a 10+ PPG difference. Diggins doesn't have much longevity but her current peak is way up there. After she makes her 3rd 1st All-WNBA team this season it won't even be close between her and Weatherspoon.


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There was a lot about Hammon that was very point guard-y, to be fair to her. She did run the offense a lot of the time, and she did create a bunch for other people, not just herself. That she often played alongside other players who'd be considered point guards was sometimes the result of the roster she was on and the options available to the coach, rather than who she would naturally be paired with.

That a lot of people wouldn't consider her a point is also partly a construction of her time. Steph Curry's a point guard, and (last season at least) so was James Harden. They're not exactly known for their pure distribution skills, and they're scorers more than anything else. That's pretty similar to Hammon.

And for a current parallel in this league, is Kelsey Mitchell going to end up being considered a point guard?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
And for a current parallel in this league, is Kelsey Mitchell going to end up being considered a point guard?


Odyssey Sims is another example of the type



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
And for a current parallel in this league, is Kelsey Mitchell going to end up being considered a point guard?


Odyssey Sims is another example of the type

And barring trades/free agency moves, they may end up being considered differently purely due to who they share the backcourt with. Sims becomes a 'shooting guard' because Chelsea Gray is considered the point, while K.Mitchell probably ends up starting alongside Tiffany Mitchell eventually and is therefore the PG. Is that due to the player they are or primarily just a matter of circumstance?



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jap



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
And for a current parallel in this league, is Kelsey Mitchell going to end up being considered a point guard?


Odyssey Sims is another example of the type


And barring trades/free agency moves, they may end up being considered differently purely due to who they share the backcourt with. Sims becomes a 'shooting guard' because Chelsea Gray is considered the point, while K.Mitchell probably ends up starting alongside Tiffany Mitchell eventually and is therefore the PG. Is that due to the player they are or primarily just a matter of circumstance?


Candace is the real point guard - everyone knows that! - except Brian!



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

then would you consider Cappie a PG while she was in PX and or Taurasi the last few seasons in PX?

Also Smith in Det?

Has NY even had a PG the last few years?

Is Toliver a PG?

In Indy the offense ran through Catchings a lot even though she played with what would be considered a true PG in January, same could be said for most of the time with McCoughtry in Atl would they be considered PGish?


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
then would you consider Cappie a PG while she was in PX and or Taurasi the last few seasons in PX?

Also Smith in Det?

Has NY even had a PG the last few years?

Is Toliver a PG?

In Indy the offense ran through Catchings a lot even though she played with what would be considered a true PG in January, same could be said for most of the time with McCoughtry in Atl would they be considered PGish?


Good point J-Spoon. Players have a constellation of skills and attributes which seldom fit into the more narrowly defined roles of players playing positions 1,2,3,4 or 5.



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PostPosted: 05/24/18 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have always considered the discussion of point guard (or shooting guard or power forward) to be ultimately meaningless. Basketball is a game of five players on the court at a time. The skills of a particular player fit within the skills of the other players on the team. Presumably Ticha Penechiero and Courtney Vandersloot are the most prototypical point guards, but they played quite differently on defense.

Is the definition of point guard solely an offensive one, and therefore defense doesn't count? Why isn't Cynthia Cooper mentioned? She had more assists than Kim Perrot (4.4 vs 4.0 over the two years they played together) and ran the offense every bit as much as Kim. They played very well together, but the truth is, they were both guards.


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Weatherspoon and Penechiero were either unwilling or unable to learn to shoot and score. Because of that neither one deserve to be considered an elite point guard.

At least people have finally quit putting Dawn Staley on these lists.


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PostPosted: 05/24/18 9:40 pm    ::: Re: WNBA PG's Rankings Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
Who are your top 5 PG's in WNBA history?

Mine are:
1A. Lindsay Whalen
1B. Sue Bird
3. Ticha Penicheiro
4. Teresa Weatherspoon
5. Courtney Vandersloot


Mark my words: Chelsea Gray's gonna knock out Spoon.


Anybody else catch KLaw's love for Chelsea on tonight's broadcast? She said she's the only PG she routinely backs up the tape to figure out how Chelsea even saw the pass, let alone make it. She's got that passing "it" factor like Ticha plus she's got a beautiful shot (led the league in 2017 in 3 pt%). She hasn't put in the years yet to be top 5, but I'm just saying she will.



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. Bird
2. Whalen
3. Penicheiro
4. T-Spoon
5. Gray
CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shannon Johnson was a four time all star and three time All WNBA selection and had much better numbers than Spoon. Why isn't she under consideration?


pilight wrote:
Spoon will be out before it comes to that. I might put Skylar Diggins ahead of her now.


Pilight, I kept waiting for you to mention Ukari Figgs in this thread, since I know you have an affinity for her game and what she brought to her teams.


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PostPosted: 05/25/18 4:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shannon Johnson was a four time all star and three time All WNBA selection and had much better numbers than Spoon. Why isn't she under consideration?


pilight wrote:
Spoon will be out before it comes to that. I might put Skylar Diggins ahead of her now.


Pilight, I kept waiting for you to mention Ukari Figgs in this thread, since I know you have an affinity for her game and what she brought to her teams.


She peaked in her last college game. #SourDukeGrapes



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Spoon’s intangibles were off the charts. She willed some moderately skilled teams to compete with Houston admirably in the finals several times, though the East in some of those seasons was woefully weak. Penichiero had Yolanda Griffith. The best player Spoon played with in terms of single-season performance was either VJ or Phillips. That alters the comparison between those 2 IMO.

That said, PG play is so much better in the league today that this list will look completely different before long. Spoon pales in comparison to the careers of Whalen and Bird (even at comparable ages). Diggins and Gray are franchise-caliber offensive players in a completely different era. Take even a Jasmine Thomas, who’s a high-caliber defender and 3-point threat and there’s an argument for comparison to Spoon in certain respects. Unlike that era, most teams of today have competent PGs or better. That couldn’t be said 20 years ago.

This list will change in just a few years markedly and it’s more than arguable that Diggins and Gray already belong.

To be fair, we never saw pre-age 30 Spoon either. Maybe if we had, she’d have won 5+ DPOYs.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 2:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. Bird
2. Penicheiro
3. Whalen
4. Nolan
5. Dawn Staley

Brief mentions to Betty Lennox and Tully Bevilaqua


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PostPosted: 05/26/18 5:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RI_Sun_Fan wrote:
1. Bird
2. Penicheiro
3. Whalen
4. Nolan
5. Dawn Staley

Brief mentions to Betty Lennox and Tully Bevilaqua


Betty Lennox was a shooting guard who was nicknamed even in her collegiate days as "Instant Offense!"

Tully was noted mostly for her toughness and defensive prowess so much more so than any PG skills.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jap wrote:
RI_Sun_Fan wrote:
1. Bird
2. Penicheiro
3. Whalen
4. Nolan
5. Dawn Staley

Brief mentions to Betty Lennox and Tully Bevilaqua


Betty Lennox was a shooting guard who was nicknamed evewn in her collegiate days as "Instant Offense!"

Tully was noted mostly for her toughness and defensive prowess so much more so than any PG skills.


And Nolan isnt a PG either



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
jap wrote:
RI_Sun_Fan wrote:
1. Bird
2. Penicheiro
3. Whalen
4. Nolan
5. Dawn Staley

Brief mentions to Betty Lennox and Tully Bevilaqua


Betty Lennox was a shooting guard who was nicknamed even in her collegiate days as "Instant Offense!"

Tully was noted mostly for her toughness and defensive prowess so much more so than any PG skills.


And Nolan isnt a PG either


Thanks! I didn't even look at the top five list to see Tweety there.

Tweety was a SG who's extraordinary athleticism allowed her to stop & pop with a ridiculously quick release. She also had incredible hops that allowed her to dunk the rock even though she was only all of 5-feet, 7-inches (it even that much!).



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 9:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In no particular order:

Ticha Penicheiro
Sue Bird
Lindsay Whalen
Dawn Staley
Becky Hammon

Honorable Mention: Tully Bevilaqua, Jennifer Azzi, Nikki Teasley



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 9:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
...Perrot has no standing at all to be on such a list, as she was mediocre at best and had she not had the tragic end that she did would have faded into relative obscurity.


And the league would have to name its annual Sportsmanship Award after someone else.



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