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stever
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josephkramer44
Joined: 23 Aug 2016
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 Posted: 05/21/18 10:28 pm ::: |
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| One thing owners can certainly do is treat their franchises with a little more respect, instead of condemning them to play in mediocre venues that are difficult to create a great atmosphere in. Shame on a couple front offices for some of their recent decisions.
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Happycappie25
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| Posted: 05/22/18 5:52 am ::: |
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I have a feeling the next CBA which is coming at them fast will not be a pretty here's what more we can give you if you give us this (that the union will quickly wiggle to make more comfortable) It will be a battle on HOW the league is presented...how many games are on TV...Arena Size...Merch....it seems the players feel the league is holding them back and from what ive seen I believe them.
I also think Hollywood Accounting is at play here (Inflating losses to allow less to be paid to employees) I don't fully buy that each and every team loses $2 million (THERE I SAID IT WITHOUT A NAME DROP) I can buy that as a worst case Scenario but not for every team...not when before teams with the same or even lesser attendance figures were claiming profit.
Not fully accusing anyone of flat out cooking the books one way or the other...Am saying that it always seems the league and teams lose the most when the CBA is closer to giving raises.
Expansion is a thorny issue. It's clear that you need either that, practice squads or say No expansion this CBA but we'll go to 15 (Which would be just as silly as throwing 4 more teams at the wall just to accomidate a talent influx...oh right we did that already! In an Olympic year no less) it's a chicken and egg issue. League needs more teams to accomodate the increase in talent level. League also has fewer truly dedicated owners and even owners who ARE dedicated can't decide what is the best way to present their team long term...which brings us to...
Arena Size...We agree 20k NBA arenas are tough to look full even when they sell out downstairs...and the 8-10k arenas are a step in the right direction...but now your seeing 7...5...2.3 lol...Lines gotta be drawn somewhere or your ability to make revenue is crippled.
I for one can not see 2300 fans paying less per ticket as more profitable than 9k paying more per ticket...well actually I can but I'd like to think a county owned building is on the level with taxpayers (There I said it part 2)
DC is different...and will draw near full houses...we hope (This expirment was tried 10 years ago with the sky...and was a disaster. Led to the sky playing in a DUMPY 17k arena...atlanta at Phillips (Always thought if they were with Gwinett from day 1 they'd make more of a base...but I get that atlanta is wierd in terms of sport support) and then the tulsa expirment which the players flat out rebuked.) but 5k will always skew the numbers lower rather than allowing league growth...or team growth...There is a law of diminishing return...last row is the last row be it in a small arena or a large arena and not many folks like sitting in the last row. Also even with a title team you can only charge so much. DC I'm willing to give a shot.
And then there's the Libs situation which everyone agrees cant go on beyond one year...I also dont think they will leave the metro...even if it's some league agreement with Dolan...League set this up when they blocked Isiah from buying half the team...a move I applaud as it showed they would not be bullied. I do think there were owners interested until presented with lease terms for MSG...which Im sure were jacked up thru the roof.
So can they cut a transfer deal with the Nets...or even nets ownership (If your wondering why I say that...Nassau Coliseium...which now holds 12k is owned by Net ownership and has issues with the outdoor Jones Beach Theatre (4 miles down the Meadowbrook from there) for Concert dates in summer so a W team seems like a good fit In a place they likely can cultivate more local fans...tho public transit to there is a bitch)
It does seem that BOTH sides seem to want to work closer together...Borders does seem to be a players Commissioner, Players seem invested in the league's growth and being more outspoken about it rather than just a Chore to grow WBB in the US while making a living overseas.
But the CBA has a LOT to talk about...and this may be good and bad
And then you got Silver running his mouth about moving the season to winter.
Which would you watch teams with two TOP NT Players who are grossly overpaid to keep them here...and 5 older players who are retired from overseas...and 5 players who arent good enough for first tier overseas jobs...cuz that's Beckham rule MLS scaled to WNBA roster sizes with potential for better talent cuz of US dominance...
Have fun with that Mr. Silver
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/22/18 7:01 am ::: |
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| josephkramer44 wrote: |
| One thing owners can certainly do is treat their franchises with a little more respect, instead of condemning them to play in mediocre venues that are difficult to create a great atmosphere in. Shame on a couple front offices for some of their recent decisions. |
Yes, we need to separate from NBA co-owners
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/22/18 7:29 am ::: |
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| Problem is that we're at least three CBAs in now since I've been saying they should blow up the salary structure and start again from scratch, and every time they come back with these tiny little tweaks to essentially the same damn thing. I'll believe they're making significant, substantial changes when I see it. |
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pilight
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| Posted: 05/22/18 7:34 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Problem is that we're at least three CBAs in now since I've been saying they should blow up the salary structure and start again from scratch, and every time they come back with these tiny little tweaks to essentially the same damn thing. I'll believe they're making significant, substantial changes when I see it. |
The player's association canned long time head Pam Wheeler shortly after the last CBA was finalized. That suggests they will be looking for bigger chanhes in the next one.
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Randy
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| Posted: 05/22/18 7:41 am ::: |
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I'll probably get really sick of them before long, but the new ads and other filler they are running in breaks do seem to be a step up from years past.
CBA needs to increase the 50k to limit overseas play budget. Players should be given incentives to at least go to countries whose seasons end before early May. It would probably be easier to do that sort of thing than increase the max salary for cored players buy a lot.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/22/18 8:14 am ::: |
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| I agree that the next CBA is a make or break for the league heading into its 25th season(2021) in what could be a real turning point for the league. It may not happen this offseason(isn't 2019 an option for the current CBA to carry over?). they just can not have several teams playing in sub par arenas. The Liberty situation needs to be a priority this offseason to move them into either Barclays or even Nassau with a new, more committed, ownership. Would Liberty fans feel better if the team moved to Prudential Center? Certainly easier to get to than WCC. Player salaries need to be bumped up to 50K min. Possibly with expansion the schedule can be increased to 38 games which could make it easier to push for larger salaries. Borders will certainly have her hands full this offseason to steer the league forward more.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 05/22/18 9:40 am ::: |
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Interesting points about the CBA ... it could be crucial.
To me, the direction the league takes pivots around the fate of the Liberty. If no one is interested in buying/operating a team in New York City -- a team that put 6,000 or 7,000 actual bodies in seats on a regular basis -- then the league has much deeper issues than raising the minimum salary, etc., can deal with.
I feel the WNBA is reasonably well promoted, and in its home cities, is a member in good standing of the professional sports club. Outside its home cities, though, it is pretty much invisible. Expansion obviously would help here, but prospective owners need to see a chance at profitability -- and though many think the $2 million in losses I heard from an NBA owner is incorrect, there is little evidence to the contrary, and certainly no line of potential owners are beating down the door to buy teams.
If there were, we would have expansion, regardless of the talent pool, for better or for worse.
On another note, as someone who deals with all levels of the girls' and women's game, the most troubling and apparently intractable issue is the lack of support from female fans. This may be just cultural, but for whatever reason, girls and women much prefer watching men play (and are also less likely to be sports fans) and this cuts the heart out of what should be the primary audience for the sport.
If one thing could happen that would kick the WNBA up a level, it would be a significant increase in support from female fans -- but that is not a WNBA problem. It starts in high school, and doesn't seem to change no matter what the level of play.
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Nixtreefan
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/22/18 10:00 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
| Always thought if they were with Gwinett from day 1 they'd make more of a base...but I get that atlanta is wierd in terms of sport support |
There's no MARTA access out there, and it would cut out pretty much anyone coming from south of the city. I wouldn't be a STH if the team played in Gwinnett because it would mean an extra hour of driving each way.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 05/22/18 10:13 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| and though many think the $2 million in losses I heard from an NBA owner is incorrect, there is little evidence to the contrary |
On the contrary, there’s little evidence to support this bogus $2 million number from a guy who never actually owned a WNBA team. We have no idea how much effort this guy put into getting a proper number to you, therefore this number can’t be properly vetted. Did he take into account sponsorships? You don’t know, right? Was this number from before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcast rights? Most likely it was and you failed to take that into consideration. Was this owner simply not interested in the WNBA so he threw out a big projected number to appease your inquiry? That’s another likely possibility.
I, on the other hand, documented that the last owner to bail on a WNBA team cited a loss of over a million dollars only after losing their main sponsorship, and this was back before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcasting rights.
Then there’s all the reports that half the teams are profitable. Are these reports false? Why would they be? There was an article that stated that the Chicago team was close to profitability. That came from the horse’s mouth, a guy who actually owns a WNBA, so he should know. Chicago is one of the more troubled clubs where little goes right. If they’re almost break even, I think it’s say to assume most of the teams aren’t doing too badly.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 05/22/18 10:59 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
On another note, as someone who deals with all levels of the girls' and women's game, the most troubling and apparently intractable issue is the lack of support from female fans. This may be just cultural, but for whatever reason, girls and women much prefer watching men play (and are also less likely to be sports fans) and this cuts the heart out of what should be the primary audience for the sport.
If one thing could happen that would kick the WNBA up a level, it would be a significant increase in support from female fans -- but that is not a WNBA problem. It starts in high school, and doesn't seem to change no matter what the level of play. |
Sad but true - my wife and daughters all prefer to watch men play baseball or soccer.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 05/22/18 1:14 pm ::: |
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Strictly sticking to the subject/title of this blog concerning the "WNBA could do more..._"
This is just one basic factor but it translates to many others.
Simply consider the effort, quality, and timeliness of information put forth in the publication and maintenance of WNBA.com. Sucks doesn't it?
Ever try to find out information about your favorite players, teams, transactions, lives, etc., etc. What about the off-season? It's like cracking into the CIA or FBI files, you have to count on rumors and leaks.
If ardent fans cannot get or find out information (let alone timely information), how can general public growth and interest manufacture?
It all starts at the WNBA top. Forget about the celebrity, prestige, remuneration and power factors and don't be afraid to dig in and get your hands dirty. Roll up your sleeves, get off your asses, and work! It takes constant effort and determination. It's not about you; it's about them. If you don't have the will or effort then, get the hell out and turn it over to someone who does.!
Last edited by RavenDog on 05/22/18 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/22/18 5:03 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| and though many think the $2 million in losses I heard from an NBA owner is incorrect, there is little evidence to the contrary |
On the contrary, there’s little evidence to support this bogus $2 million number from a guy who never actually owned a WNBA team. We have no idea how much effort this guy put into getting a proper number to you, therefore this number can’t be properly vetted. Did he take into account sponsorships? You don’t know, right? Was this number from before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcast rights? Most likely it was and you failed to take that into consideration. Was this owner simply not interested in the WNBA so he threw out a big projected number to appease your inquiry? That’s another likely possibility.
I, on the other hand, documented that the last owner to bail on a WNBA team cited a loss of over a million dollars only after losing their main sponsorship, and this was back before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcasting rights.
Then there’s all the reports that half the teams are profitable. Are these reports false? Why would they be? There was an article that stated that the Chicago team was close to profitability. That came from the horse’s mouth, a guy who actually owns a WNBA, so he should know. Chicago is one of the more troubled clubs where little goes right. If they’re almost break even, I think it’s say to assume most of the teams aren’t doing too badly. |
Taking this a little personal, aren't you?
The person is a present partial owner of a WNBA team.
You can certainly choose to believe articles that are driven by information leaked to reporters, and assume that the leakers have no agenda. And you could be correct.
You can also choose to believe an individual who is involved in the operation of a franchise that considered adding a WNBA team, and did not do so because of the number mentioned. You can choose to believe that discussion involving the owners of the team did not cover the ground you mentioned, and/or that the person is misinformed. You could be correct in that case as well.
And by the way, the discussion took place after the ESPN payouts were doubled.
Again, no need to make it quite so personal ...
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 05/22/18 5:04 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
Strictly sticking to the subject/title of this blog concerning the "WNBA could do more..._"
This is just one basic factor but it translates to many others.
Simply consider the effort, quality, and timeliness of information put forth in the publication and maintenance of WNBA.com. Sucks doesn't it?
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Agree 100%. The WNBA website is a joke. For a league that gets very little news coverage one would think you could go to their website for information. But the site has gone nearly completely off the rails. Looking for the game notes for tonight (games start in 90 minutes), Indiana had posted notes (make me a Fever fan), Las Vegas said the page does not exist, Washington gives me the notes for Sunday's game and LA gives me a list of last season's notes.
When it came to League Pass this season the League made a mistake in sending out a poorly worded email blast to get people signed up. Mistakes happen and if the League had owned up (or understood, I'm not sure) it wouldn't have been a big deal. But as it is I wound up writing 4 emails back to them, getting answers to emails 1,2 and 4, and finally wound up getting a discount that was intended for season ticket holders only. The $5 was never important to me, but being treated with respect is. And my sense is that once they realized I was not a STH I was not important.
The question of how much the League is losing is really not that important. If there were potential owners out there that wanted to own a team there would be expansion. The problem is that there is no market for franchise sales. People that buy major sports franchises know there is a market to sell, so the investment decision is how much negative cash flow they can afford. But when it comes to the WNBA the principal is at risk and the teams are not increasing in value.
The potential for a women's sports league in the US becoming profitable in the next 10 years is quite small. The League must try to tread water which means excellent customer service and a plan to maintain current customers while trying to attract new ones. Players and owners must realize that the economics in the US are different from Europe or Asia/Australia. The WNBA has done a very good job of improving the quality of play, but is having much more difficulty improving the quality of the business.
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shontay33
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 05/22/18 5:04 pm ::: Re: WNBA players think league could do more |
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| stever wrote: |
| https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2018/05/21/despite-wnbas-recent-success-players-think-league-could-do-more/ |
I recently had a debate on another message board regarding this. I pointed out that most people who like Women's Basketball are basketball purist(people who enjoy fundamental basketball and not just a bunch of slam dunks)
We also had a debate about why the league is not popular among young women who play basketball. They seemed to think that young women are not aware of the WNBA. They are very aware of the WNBA. If you ask any of the top middle and high school players they will tell you that they want to play in the WNBA.
Not sure if anyone noticed this but most of the draftees this year said that their favorite player and players who they pattern their games after was an NBA player. Not one of them said I pattern my game after Sue Bird,DT or other players who have played or play in the WNBA. It seems like girls are just more into the NBA and its something that the League has to live with. Kids go along with trends.
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Happycappie25
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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Location: QUEENS!!!!
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| Posted: 05/22/18 8:00 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| and though many think the $2 million in losses I heard from an NBA owner is incorrect, there is little evidence to the contrary |
On the contrary, there’s little evidence to support this bogus $2 million number from a guy who never actually owned a WNBA team. We have no idea how much effort this guy put into getting a proper number to you, therefore this number can’t be properly vetted. Did he take into account sponsorships? You don’t know, right? Was this number from before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcast rights? Most likely it was and you failed to take that into consideration. Was this owner simply not interested in the WNBA so he threw out a big projected number to appease your inquiry? That’s another likely possibility.
I, on the other hand, documented that the last owner to bail on a WNBA team cited a loss of over a million dollars only after losing their main sponsorship, and this was back before ESPN doubled the payout for broadcasting rights.
Then there’s all the reports that half the teams are profitable. Are these reports false? Why would they be? There was an article that stated that the Chicago team was close to profitability. That came from the horse’s mouth, a guy who actually owns a WNBA, so he should know. Chicago is one of the more troubled clubs where little goes right. If they’re almost break even, I think it’s say to assume most of the teams aren’t doing too badly. |
Taking this a little personal, aren't you?
The person is a present partial owner of a WNBA team.
You can certainly choose to believe articles that are driven by information leaked to reporters, and assume that the leakers have no agenda. And you could be correct.
You can also choose to believe an individual who is involved in the operation of a franchise that considered adding a WNBA team, and did not do so because of the number mentioned. You can choose to believe that discussion involving the owners of the team did not cover the ground you mentioned, and/or that the person is misinformed. You could be correct in that case as well.
And by the way, the discussion took place after the ESPN payouts were doubled.
Again, no need to make it quite so personal ... |
Honestly because of all the published articles saying otherwise and the way it is being bandied around like biblical fact...Pics or it didn't happen
Not saying it's false...but It may just be the view of one team...we have seen different figures from other teams...we do not know this person's motive for talking...and yes there are teams where I'd believe that number would be too rosy an outlook...Indiana for 1 and before they moved SA for two.
And could there be teams where it becomes a zigzagged average...yes...but well pics or it didnt happen...seen the same articles Shades did...too much evidence to the contrary
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 05/22/18 8:09 pm ::: |
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| Here is the part I don't get - they are donating $5 per ticket sold for a cause of the fan's choosing. My point isn't whether these are worthy causes at all, but rather - if they are losing so much money, how can they afford to give away what would seem to amount to millions of dollars?
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josephkramer44
Joined: 23 Aug 2016
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| Posted: 05/23/18 9:15 pm ::: |
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I have been very critical of past WNBA promoting efforts and many of the blatant falsehoods and condescending attitudes taken towards the public but once again the teams being pushed into these mediocre venues is terrible for both the public image of the league and the morale of the players. I honestly think one of the reasons the Lynx do so well is because Glenn Taylor treats them with serious respect, despite them being a small financial part of his business. NBA linked teams should have no problem providing quality venues.
Some people mentioned contraction as being a very real possibility this year. Is there any one real team aside from the Liberty that people think are in danger?
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