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Race to MVP
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zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My Top 10:

1.Stewart
2.Griner
3.N.Ogwumike
4.A.Thomas
5.EDD
6.Loyd
7.Gray
8.Diggins
9.Hayes
10.Taurasi

1.The Name of the Award is “Most Valuable Player”....not “Most Outstanding Player”

2.I don’t agree with Diggins being left off the list.However,I wouldn’t put her in the top 5 just yet...Dallas should have a better record than .500.They have a 20p/10r post player.Skylar was in my top 5 last week(4-3 record)..but not this week.

3.Washington is 5-1 with EDD in the lineup.

4.A.Thomas is definitely an MVP candidate...She led Connecticut to a 5-0 start,and was top 15 in pts,rebs,asst,stls,and blks.

5.Charles/Wilson teams have sub .400 win percentages.Had to leave them off the list.


Aladyyn



Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Anyways, why choose Alyssa Thomas out of Connecticut? What makes her stand out? Because it's not the stats...


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 2:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote


* 32 game season
** 30 game season
*** 28 game season


I did the full research, so I no longer have to say “modern era”. This applies to all WNBA MVP’s.

No MVP has ever produced a lower FG% than 43.4 by Swoopes in 2002.
That seems like a fair standard or thereabouts.

No MVP has produced a season average lower than 15.5 ppg by Catchings in 2011.
That seems like a fair standard, maybe a little too fair.

No MVP has ever missed more than 3 games in their MVP season.
Seems like a very fair standard.

Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



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readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart


Diggins-Smith



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart


Diggins-Smith


She got taken out by Shades' FG% requirement



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Shades



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



Even if you were vetted on this, that seems like a clunky algorithm criteria. If a player edges out her double-double producing teammate in scoring, does that necessarily make her the best MVP candidate? What list do you get if you leave that one out?



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Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A Thomas is now averaging 12 pts per game (28th in the league in scoring). She def shouldnt be in the top 5 MVP candidates IMO anymore Confused



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zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The impact of some players goes far beyond stats(Catchings,Ford,etc)... Alyssa(and J.Thomas) is Connecticut's emotional leader.A.Thomas brings a level of toughness that impacts the game and breeds confidence.She's also put up terrific all-around numbers…..Any person that says 9.9 reb & 4.2 asst are weak should jump in a tire shredder…..Connecticut started 6-1 with A.Thomas leading the way.

Every season is different.Unwritten rules and standards are made to be broken.

If EDD plays 28 games,and Washington goes 23-5 in those games.Should EDD be eliminated from MVP consideration based on some unwritten rule?

IF Dallas wins 22 games,and Diggins avg 23p/6a/5r on 41% fg shooting….Should she be eliminated from the MVP voting because she only shot 41%?


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
The impact of some players goes far beyond stats(Catchings,Ford,etc)... Alyssa(and J.Thomas) is Connecticut's emotional leader.A.Thomas brings a level of toughness that impacts the game and breeds confidence.She's also put up terrific all-around numbers…..Any person that says 9.9 reb & 4.2 asst are weak should jump in a tire shredder…..Connecticut started 6-1 with A.Thomas led the way

Every season is different.Unwritten rules and standards are made to be broken.

If EDD plays 28 games,and Washington goes 23-5 in those games.Should EDD be eliminated from MVP consideration based on some unwritten rule?

IF Dallas wins 22 games,and Diggins avg 23p/6a/5r on 41% fg shooting….Should she be eliminated from the MVP voting because she only shot 41%?


Catchings won that award averaging 15 pts because of years of missing out on MVP awards and it was more a life time achievement award. A Thomas scoring average is dropping every week while Courtney Williams and J Thomas are getting better. So yes she deserved to be a candidate early on but now IMO her scoring average has dropped and other players are stepping up.

About Diggins, if you look at the previous MVP winners there are not many PG/SG's that win MVP. So you cant compare all those high FG's from those wings/drivers and postplayers on that list. So 42% from the field from a PG/SG who takes a lot of outside shots is fine by me for winning MVP. She has dropped to 39,8 right now and 30 from 3 so she has to improve that a bit.

About EDD, Mystics have 4 losses and 3 of them were without EDD. So that only proves how important she is for the team. So no IMO that doesnt hurt her MVP chances.



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Last edited by Michelle89 on 06/15/18 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 7213



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 4:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

@ michelle89,


I agree....However,in all fairness to A.Thomas.Her recent struggles have coincided with the Sun going to a big lineup(Jones,Ogwumike,Thomas).....Last 3 games since lineup change:6.7p/7.7r/3.3a........Alyssa's going through an adjustment period right now.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 06/15/18 4:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



Even if you were vetted on this, that seems like a clunky algorithm criteria. If a player edges out her double-double producing teammate in scoring, does that necessarily make her the best MVP candidate? What list do you get if you leave that one out?


You add four players:

DeWanna Bonner
Liz Cambage
Jewell Loyd
Kristi Toliver



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readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 5502
Location: Durham, NC


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PostPosted: 06/15/18 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart


Diggins-Smith


She got taken out by Shades' FG% requirement


Weak argument. Very weak, especially you presented two criteria and FG % was not among them.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart


Diggins-Smith


She got taken out by Shades' FG% requirement


Weak argument. Very weak, especially you presented two criteria and FG % was not among them.


Lets just be glad its professionals making this decision and not any posters here Laughing



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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 6:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You guys all do realize, I hope, that Karl Marx once said "Sports MVP debtates are the crystal meth of the masses."


Fighting Artichoke



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 3650



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 6:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
You guys all do realize, I hope, that Karl Marx once said "Sports MVP debtates are the crystal meth of the masses."

Sounds too nihilistic for Marx. I thought that quote was attributed to Nietzsche.


mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 6:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think most valuable player is too vague of a name.

Sometimes it means best player..sometimes it means biggest impact player with best stats...but I’m not sure it means most valuable.


For instance...I think it’s pretty obvious...and really showing itself now, that Whalen was the most valuable lynx player...even if she might have been the fourth or fifth best basketball player.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It has been discussed forever but IMO

Most Valuable Player actually translates to Most Outstanding Player

And is almost always awarded to the player with the best stats (heavily waited by points per game) combined with the best record. An incredible stat line can override not being a tip top team, but an incredible stat line and being on a top team will guarantee you the award. (And player reputation and star quality can move the needle in a close debate and stats can be cherry picked to make or break an argument).

Games played might hurt EDD, FG % might hurt Diggins, but at the moment it is team record that will undo both of those players.


J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And come next week C. Parker LA will be back on the list.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 9:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart


Diggins-Smith


She got taken out by Shades' FG% requirement


Weak argument. Very weak, especially you presented two criteria and FG % was not among them.


I didn't see the need to quote Shades' entire post. It was pretty obvious I was adding on to his criteria.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



Even if you were vetted on this, that seems like a clunky algorithm criteria. If a player edges out her double-double producing teammate in scoring, does that necessarily make her the best MVP candidate? What list do you get if you leave that one out?


Of course now you're picking and choosing among things that have always been characteristic of MVPs. I get that you're trying to exclude Diggins but include Cambage, but try to stick to a consistent standard.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 06/15/18 10:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



Even if you were vetted on this, that seems like a clunky algorithm criteria. If a player edges out her double-double producing teammate in scoring, does that necessarily make her the best MVP candidate? What list do you get if you leave that one out?


Of course now you're picking and choosing among things that have always been characteristic of MVPs. I get that you're trying to exclude Diggins but include Cambage, but try to stick to a consistent standard.


Not exactly trying to exclude anybody. Just pointing out the research on some of the more important indices. If a FG% below 40 has been shown to be unimportant, that would have been revealed, but it wasn’t. What’s not consistent?



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/15/18 10:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
Why should any of these standards be breached if it’s not necessary?
Catchings’ MVP may have been a sympathy award, but who needs sympathy this year?


No MVP has played for a losing team. Every MVP has been their team's leading scorer. Apply all those standards and you have four candidates remaining:

Brittney Griner
Tiffany Hayes
Nneka Ogwumike
Breanna Stewart



Even if you were vetted on this, that seems like a clunky algorithm criteria. If a player edges out her double-double producing teammate in scoring, does that necessarily make her the best MVP candidate? What list do you get if you leave that one out?


Of course now you're picking and choosing among things that have always been characteristic of MVPs. I get that you're trying to exclude Diggins but include Cambage, but try to stick to a consistent standard.


Not exactly trying to exclude anybody. Just pointing out the research on some of the more important indices. If a FG% below 40 has been shown to be unimportant, that would have been revealed, but it wasn’t. What’s not consistent?


Leading your team in scoring has been important to MVP voters. You want to dismiss that and only that among things that have been characteristic of MVPs.



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Libra_Girl



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PostPosted: 06/16/18 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CP should be in mvp conversation.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 06/16/18 1:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Libra_Girl wrote:
CP should be in mvp conversation.


Sparks did pretty well without her with Nneka and Gray leading the way. IMO too early for her to be in the top 10



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