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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

1. Stewart
2. Delle Donne
3. Hayes
4. Parker
5. Cambage

(Pretty big gap between the top 5 and everyone else, so I’ll stop there.)


Delle Donne has missed a lot of time. She's going to be under 30 games again (now four years running).


But her stats are fantastic, and her team has performed above expectations, and she has significantly less of a supporting cast than anyone else on that list.



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BamaEd



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

1. Stewart
2. Delle Donne
3. Hayes
4. Parker
5. Cambage

(Pretty big gap between the top 5 and everyone else, so I’ll stop there.)


Delle Donne has missed a lot of time. She's going to be under 30 games again (now four years running).

Realistically, Hayes will be no better than 5th. I'd guess the voting will go:

1 Stewart
2 Cambage
3 Delle Donne
4 Parker
5 Hayes


I agree with that. With EDD coming on strong at the end of the year, 2&3 could flip.

But why do you think PGs and SGs have won so few? It is because they can't put up big rebound numbers? Would a PG have to average double figure assists?
mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
BamaEd wrote:
pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

1. Stewart
2. Delle Donne
3. Hayes
4. Parker
5. Cambage

(Pretty big gap between the top 5 and everyone else, so I’ll stop there.)


Delle Donne has missed a lot of time. She's going to be under 30 games again (now four years running).

Realistically, Hayes will be no better than 5th. I'd guess the voting will go:

1 Stewart
2 Cambage
3 Delle Donne
4 Parker
5 Hayes


I agree with that. With EDD coming on strong at the end of the year, 2&3 could flip.

But why do you think PGs and SGs have won so few? It is because they can't put up big rebound numbers? Would a PG have to average double figure assists?


Yeah, statistics heavily favor post players...even though Minnesota is currently showing everyone how important having a great guard is. (Statistically it’s much easier to get ten rebounds than ten assists. Post players shoot two feet from the Basket, so their shooting percentage is better..etc.. is take a great guard over a great post player any day though.)



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PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 12:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
mercfan3 wrote:
BamaEd wrote:
pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

1. Stewart
2. Delle Donne
3. Hayes
4. Parker
5. Cambage

(Pretty big gap between the top 5 and everyone else, so I’ll stop there.)


Delle Donne has missed a lot of time. She's going to be under 30 games again (now four years running).

Realistically, Hayes will be no better than 5th. I'd guess the voting will go:

1 Stewart
2 Cambage
3 Delle Donne
4 Parker
5 Hayes


I agree with that. With EDD coming on strong at the end of the year, 2&3 could flip.

But why do you think PGs and SGs have won so few? It is because they can't put up big rebound numbers? Would a PG have to average double figure assists?


Yeah, statistics heavily favor post players...even though Minnesota is currently showing everyone how important having a great guard is. (Statistically it’s much easier to get ten rebounds than ten assists. Post players shoot two feet from the Basket, so their shooting percentage is better..etc.. is take a great guard over a great post player any day though.)


The post and wing is also where the talent is. Only six guards have been selected No. 1 in the draft, and two of those (Harding and Plum) were in historically weak drafts.
mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
PUmatty wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
BamaEd wrote:
pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

1. Stewart
2. Delle Donne
3. Hayes
4. Parker
5. Cambage

(Pretty big gap between the top 5 and everyone else, so I’ll stop there.)


Delle Donne has missed a lot of time. She's going to be under 30 games again (now four years running).

Realistically, Hayes will be no better than 5th. I'd guess the voting will go:

1 Stewart
2 Cambage
3 Delle Donne
4 Parker
5 Hayes


I agree with that. With EDD coming on strong at the end of the year, 2&3 could flip.

But why do you think PGs and SGs have won so few? It is because they can't put up big rebound numbers? Would a PG have to average double figure assists?


Yeah, statistics heavily favor post players...even though Minnesota is currently showing everyone how important having a great guard is. (Statistically it’s much easier to get ten rebounds than ten assists. Post players shoot two feet from the Basket, so their shooting percentage is better..etc.. is take a great guard over a great post player any day though.)


The post and wing is also where the talent is. Only six guards have been selected No. 1 in the draft, and two of those (Harding and Plum) were in historically weak drafts.


True, but I also think Bird and Whalen got screwed out of an MVP because of the bias.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
BamaEd wrote:
But why do you think PGs and SGs have won so few? It is because they can't put up big rebound numbers? Would a PG have to average double figure assists?


There are several factors.

1 The WNBA has evolved into a post-centric league. Unlike the NBA, which has turned towards the perimeter, the W has turned to the paint. A lot of that comes from league history. Teams want to emulate success. The Comets' formula of "give me four first ballot HOFers and we'll figure the rest out later" is too volatile for most coaches and nearly impossible to repeat. Lisa Leslie's Sparks had a much easier to replicate formula, one most teams are trying to implement (with permutations according to available talent).

2 Many WNBA MVP voters don't follow the league as closely as they should. They're newspaper beat writers who spend most of their time covering other sports and aren't that interested in the W. They look at the stats and know the big stars and that's it. The stats tend to favor post players, so post players win the awards.

3 The way the league is officiated favors post play. WNBA officials call more fouls than NBA officials, even adjusting for the higher number of perimeter shots for the men. Therefore teams feed the post more, knowing the refs will likely bail them out.

4 Women are smaller than men, which makes spacing easier in the post.



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BamaEd



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Thank you everyone. Yes, I'm a Dream homer, but it was good to talk about lack of recognition for guards as well. I do appreciate your input Smile

Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose. Pilight, I agree with you about how the voting will go. I would probably flip flop Hayes & Parker only because of improvement in record for the Dream and Hayes' play over the past month or so.
pilight



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Posts: 66900
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
BamaEd wrote:
Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose. Pilight, I agree with you about how the voting will go. I would probably flip flop Hayes & Parker only because of improvement in record for the Dream and Hayes' play over the past month or so.


Yeah, but MVP voters love Parker



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PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
pilight wrote:
BamaEd wrote:
Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose. Pilight, I agree with you about how the voting will go. I would probably flip flop Hayes & Parker only because of improvement in record for the Dream and Hayes' play over the past month or so.


Yeah, but MVP voters love Parker


I expect her to come in third.
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66900
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
PUmatty wrote:
pilight wrote:
BamaEd wrote:
Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose. Pilight, I agree with you about how the voting will go. I would probably flip flop Hayes & Parker only because of improvement in record for the Dream and Hayes' play over the past month or so.


Yeah, but MVP voters love Parker


I expect her to come in third.


Maybe if Cambage is 4th. They like EDD a lot too.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
BamaEd wrote:

Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose.


It looked like that's what she's trying to do with today's performance.



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SDHoops



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 1183



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PostPosted: 08/09/18 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Shades wrote:
BamaEd wrote:

Once again, I do think it's Stewart's race to lose.


It looked like that's what she's trying to do with today's performance.

Wah wah. Maya isn't the MVP and may never be again. Quit trying to steal everyone's thunder..go pout about the game threads again
Luuuc
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 08/09/18 7:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Michelle89 wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Considering Hayes is 11th in the league in scoring I think it's a healthy sign of respect that she's sitting at 6th on that list.

Parker is 10 th on the scoring list and her team is underperforming this season and she is 3rd on the list Laughing Laughing

Yeah I'm not saying that I love the list, just that scoring is always a major factor.
It's not like LA and Atlanta's records are very different though. Only 1 win apart as I type this.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 08/10/18 4:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Luuuc wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Considering Hayes is 11th in the league in scoring I think it's a healthy sign of respect that she's sitting at 6th on that list.

Parker is 10 th on the scoring list and her team is underperforming this season and she is 3rd on the list Laughing Laughing

Yeah I'm not saying that I love the list, just that scoring is always a major factor.
It's not like LA and Atlanta's records are very different though. Only 1 win apart as I type this.


True but most of the people predicted the Sparks to be leading the league or with a solid 2nd place while 99% predicted the Dream to be much lower..



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tfan



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PostPosted: 08/10/18 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Quote:

3 The way the league is officiated favors post play. WNBA officials call more fouls than NBA officials, even adjusting for the higher number of perimeter shots for the men. Therefore teams feed the post more, knowing the refs will likely bail them out.


The WNBA allows more fouls per minute than any league in the world. Change that and I suspect that the refs will suddenly be calling fewer fouls as the play will have to change.




Last edited by tfan on 08/10/18 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total
SpaceJunkie



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PostPosted: 08/10/18 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
tfan wrote:
Quote:

3 The way the league is officiated favors post play. WNBA officials call more fouls than NBA officials, even adjusting for the higher number of perimeter shots for the men. Therefore teams feed the post more, knowing the refs will likely bail them out.


The WNBA allows more fouls per minute than any league in the world. Change that and I suspect that the refs will suddenly be calling fewer fouls as the play will have to change.


Or the refs will call fouls the same, and we'll all be complaining about players having to sit massive chunks of most games in foul trouble.
Shades



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PostPosted: 08/16/18 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
ESPNW (Voepel, Lobo, Pelton) choses Stewart as MVP.
http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24386855/seattle-storm-breanna-stewart-espnw-pick-wnba-mvp-aja-wilson-top-rookie-nicki-collen-top-coach



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/16/18 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
http://www.wnba.com/news/race-to-mvp-week-13-delle-donne-makes-late-push/

1. Breanna Stewart, Seattle Storm (Last Week: 1)
2. Elena Delle Donne, Washington Mystics (Last Week: 4)
3. Candace Parker, Los Angeles Sparks (Last Week: 3)
4. Liz Cambage, Dallas Wings (Last Week: 2)
5. Sylvia Fowles, Minnesota Lynx (Last Week: 5)
6. Tiffany Hayes, Atlanta Dream (Last Week: 6)
7. Diana Taurasi, Phoenix Mercury (Last Week: 8)
8. Brittney Griner, Phoenix Mercury (Last Week: 7)
9. Chelsea Gray, Los Angeles Sparks (Last Week: 9)
10. A’ja Wilson, Las Vegas Aces (Last Week: 10)



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PostPosted: 08/16/18 5:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Shades wrote:
ESPNW (Voepel, Lobo, Pelton) choses Stewart as MVP.
http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/24386855/seattle-storm-breanna-stewart-espnw-pick-wnba-mvp-aja-wilson-top-rookie-nicki-collen-top-coach


Quote:
Her player impact estimate (PIE) of 19.2 is the best of her three seasons, and second in the league this year to Dallas' Liz Cambage, who is Stewart's chief competitor for MVP.

Cambage leads the league in PIE at 21.3, along with scoring at 23.0 PPG. Cambage is second in the WNBA in rebounding at 9.6, fourth in field-goal percentage at 58.8 and fifth in blocks at 1.8.

Cambage leads Stewart in player efficiency rating (PER), too, at 30.4 to 28.4. So how does Stewart get the nod for MVP?


Quote:
Let's look at win shares: Stewart leads at 7.1, while Cambage is third at 5.7. ESPN.com's Kevin Pelton also has a Wins Against Replacement Player (WARP) metric that has Stewart first at 8.8 and Cambage second at 7.3.

Pelton also notes that Stewart would be the sixth player in league history to lead in WARP while also playing on the team with the best record



From reading this you would think the choice was Cambage , seems like a stretch to involve WARP , when has WARP ever been utilized in MVP voting ? Seems like something to make the case stronger since Liz is ahead in PPG and Rebs i guess. Either way Stewie deserves it so i dont want no smoke please Laughing Rolling Eyes



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UofDel_Alum



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 9:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
I have no problem saying Breanna Stewart is the present MVP and predict that she will be this years MVP IF Seattle wins the WNBA this year.

However, if the Washington Mystics win the playoffs, there should be no doubt that honor is mainly due to the play and leadership of EDD.
pilight



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 9:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
UofDel_Alum wrote:
I have no problem saying Breanna Stewart is the present MVP and predict that she will be this years MVP IF Seattle wins the WNBA this year.

However, if the Washington Mystics win the playoffs, there should be no doubt that honor is mainly due to the play and leadership of EDD.


MVP is a regular season award



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UofDel_Alum



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 11:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
pilight wrote:
UofDel_Alum wrote:
I have no problem saying Breanna Stewart is the present MVP and predict that she will be this years MVP IF Seattle wins the WNBA this year.

However, if the Washington Mystics win the playoffs, there should be no doubt that honor is mainly due to the play and leadership of EDD.


MVP is a regular season award


Sad I do not like this award.
My hats off to Stewie. She deserves this award. She had a very nice season.
pilight



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
UofDel_Alum wrote:
pilight wrote:
UofDel_Alum wrote:
I have no problem saying Breanna Stewart is the present MVP and predict that she will be this years MVP IF Seattle wins the WNBA this year.

However, if the Washington Mystics win the playoffs, there should be no doubt that honor is mainly due to the play and leadership of EDD.


MVP is a regular season award


Sad I do not like this award.
My hats off to Stewie. She deserves this award. She had a very nice season.


If the Mystics win it all, maybe EDD can be finals MVP. My guess is she'd like that better anyway.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
Without Cambage this season in Dallas, the Wings would have been a lottery team. Though they likely would have kept Paris. But you can't ignore the Storm's record and Stewart's stats.



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PostPosted: 08/19/18 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote
toad455 wrote:
Without Cambage this season in Dallas, the Wings would have been a lottery team. Though they likely would have kept Paris. But you can't ignore the Storm's record and Stewart's stats.


Agreed



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