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Brenda Frese on equal pay for female coaches

 
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StevenHW



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PostPosted: 04/15/18 6:11 pm    ::: Brenda Frese on equal pay for female coaches Reply Reply with quote

Soledad O’Brien’s weekly TV show called “Matter Of Fact” did an interview with Maryland coach Brenda Frese...

http://matteroffact.tv/women-coaches-receive-half-much-male-counterparts/

If that link does not work, try this one...

https://youtu.be/tO3JO4qAkw0



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/15/18 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Logic me this.

"One reason women say they are opting out of coaching jobs is the pay gap . . . ."

Then, the video claims that the median women's coaching salary is $1,172,400 per year.

So women are fleeing the profession because they can make more than this doing something else? Bull!
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 04/15/18 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How can that be the median coaching salary? Among whom? FF coaches? Certainly not all of Div I. http://sportsinfo.pro/WBBSurvey2017.html

And if you take the real D-I salary and figure out the hourly rate, female coaches who actually obtained a decent education can probably make as much money doing other things.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/16/18 9:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One thing the salary -- whatever it might be -- doesn't take into account is the demands of the job. Being a head coach of a P5 program with a good salary is far from a 9-5 occupation.

Another missing factor is the low-paid, long-hour apprenticeship required to get a head job. Of course, every profession requires years of climbing the ladder, but coaching is a demanding job with a sometimes brutal schedule.



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PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 9:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
One thing the salary -- whatever it might be -- doesn't take into account is the demands of the job. Being a head coach of a P5 program with a good salary is far from a 9-5 occupation.

Another missing factor is the low-paid, long-hour apprenticeship required to get a head job. Of course, every profession requires years of climbing the ladder, but coaching is a demanding job with a sometimes brutal schedule.


There are a hundred plus other jobs that aren't 9-5 jobs that don't pay nearly as well. I agree that, especially in smaller schools and conferences, the apprenticeship jobs are low paying. However, that is also not unique to this profession.


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 10:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Logic me this.

"One reason women say they are opting out of coaching jobs is the pay gap . . . ."

Then, the video claims that the median women's coaching salary is $1,172,400 per year.

So women are fleeing the profession because they can make more than this doing something else? Bull!


To make the median for a D-I head coach likely means you've been working in coaching for 20 years or more. Frese got to Maryland 10 years into her coaching career and that was considered a meteoric rise. I doubt she was making the D-I median when she started there.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Logic me this.

"One reason women say they are opting out of coaching jobs is the pay gap . . . ."

Then, the video claims that the median women's coaching salary is $1,172,400 per year.

So women are fleeing the profession because they can make more than this doing something else? Bull!


To make the median for a D-I head coach likely means you've been working in coaching for 20 years or more. Frese got to Maryland 10 years into her coaching career and that was considered a meteoric rise. I doubt she was making the D-I median when she started there.


That doesn't make sense. The median is, by definition, the halfway point. Are you suggesting that more than half of D1 coaches make more than the first-year coach at Minnesota? I would find that very hard to believe.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/07/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PlayBally'all wrote:


There are a hundred plus other jobs that aren't 9-5 jobs that don't pay nearly as well. I agree that, especially in smaller schools and conferences, the apprenticeship jobs are low paying. However, that is also not unique to this profession.


It's also not unique to women. Does someone think mens assistants in Div 3 schools or even in Div I Big South or Western Athletic conference schools are getting rich?

And if the women's basketball coaching jobs are so oppressive, why are men eagerly snapping up those jobs? I thought it was widely viewed that the M/F split among WCBB coaches was changing because the WCBB jobs were getting to be better paid, not worse, and were thus attracting more male candidates.

If she wanted to demonstrate that male WCBB coaches were getting paid lots more than female WCBB coaches for comparable jobs in the same sport, then there would be a problem to discuss.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 12:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Equal pay? Is the issue that female coaches get paid less than their male counterparts, or that women's basketball coaches get paid less than men's basketball coaches. If it is the latter then why not just pay women's coaches the same percentage of revenue that the women's team brings in as the men.

I agree that coaching is a hard profession. I also agree that there are many assistant coaches, particularly at non power 5 conferences don't make great money. But if you want to compare coaching salaries between sports I would suggest comparing women's basketball coaches to gymnastic coaches or other small revenue sports. I don't know what a soccer (men or women), volleyball (men or women) or field hockey coach makes, but I suspect they would be quite happy with the pay that women's basketball coaches make.


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 6:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
If it is the latter then why not just pay women's coaches the same percentage of revenue that the women's team brings in as the men.


Why not pay professors based on the revenue their departments bring in?



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 9:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
If it is the latter then why not just pay women's coaches the same percentage of revenue that the women's team brings in as the men.


Why not pay professors based on the revenue their departments bring in?


To a certain extent, particularly in STEM fields that are supported by billions of dollars in government and private research grants, many professors are paid that way.

However, far more importantly, comparing professors to coaches is comparing apples to sugar sprinkles. A university is an apple orchard, the core mission of which is education. Sports are a sugary snack. Eliminate professors and the entire educational system dies. Eliminate coaches and nothing of educational importance dies.

Over and above some minimum common salary base, it's reasonable to pay coaches in proportion to the revenue and fan potential of the sport. Indeed, to a certain extent, that's the system today. Football and men's basketball coaches are atop the pile of sugar sprinkles almost everywhere.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 9:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
PlayBally'all wrote:


There are a hundred plus other jobs that aren't 9-5 jobs that don't pay nearly as well. I agree that, especially in smaller schools and conferences, the apprenticeship jobs are low paying. However, that is also not unique to this profession.


It's also not unique to women. Does someone think mens assistants in Div 3 schools or even in Div I Big South or Western Athletic conference schools are getting rich?

And if the women's basketball coaching jobs are so oppressive, why are men eagerly snapping up those jobs? I thought it was widely viewed that the M/F split among WCBB coaches was changing because the WCBB jobs were getting to be better paid, not worse, and were thus attracting more male candidates.

If she wanted to demonstrate that male WCBB coaches were getting paid lots more than female WCBB coaches for comparable jobs in the same sport, then there would be a problem to discuss.


Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties. But for the wife/mother to be gone frequently on recruiting trips or on trips with the team, etc. can put a real strain on things when children are involved. Not all salaries pay enough for a live-in nanny, and not all husbands or partners are able or inclined to manage double duty. But turning the tables, when it's a male coach, it's the norm for the wife to pick up the slack and run things the wife of any other semi-absentee father. Growing up, I lived in a neighborhood with many coaches at what is now called a P5 school, and even in those days, I saw how that worked.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
PlayBally'all wrote:


There are a hundred plus other jobs that aren't 9-5 jobs that don't pay nearly as well. I agree that, especially in smaller schools and conferences, the apprenticeship jobs are low paying. However, that is also not unique to this profession.


It's also not unique to women. Does someone think mens assistants in Div 3 schools or even in Div I Big South or Western Athletic conference schools are getting rich?

And if the women's basketball coaching jobs are so oppressive, why are men eagerly snapping up those jobs? I thought it was widely viewed that the M/F split among WCBB coaches was changing because the WCBB jobs were getting to be better paid, not worse, and were thus attracting more male candidates.

If she wanted to demonstrate that male WCBB coaches were getting paid lots more than female WCBB coaches for comparable jobs in the same sport, then there would be a problem to discuss.


Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties. But for the wife/mother to be gone frequently on recruiting trips or on trips with the team, etc. can put a real strain on things when children are involved. Not all salaries pay enough for a live-in nanny, and not all husbands or partners are able or inclined to manage double duty. But turning the tables, when it's a male coach, it's the norm for the wife to pick up the slack and run things the wife of any other semi-absentee father. Growing up, I lived in a neighborhood with many coaches at what is now called a P5 school, and even in those days, I saw how that worked.


This is very, very true. A woman I know just got a head coaching job and her daughter, who will be a high school sophomore, has spent her whole life in the same location. Now the daughter has to move to a completely different area of the country where she knows no one, and her mom will be working a demanding, travel-heavy, time-sucking job. The dad will not be a stay-at-home dad ...

Very difficult situation, though the daughter is completely on board with her mom's decision -- and this is not uncommon. No easy answer.



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snzuluz



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 11:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you are going into teaching and coaching, as coaching is teaching, then you are in it for all the wrong reasons!

Coaching on the college level at any level is a 24/7 - 365 day job.

In the business world, you do not get fired for not filling up your office staff
(coaches have to meet a certain criteria for putting butts in the seats); an 18-22 cannot cost you your job nor are you dealing with parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, friends etc of that player; people transferring out - in coaching that is a red flag; graduation rates; in the business world those making $1,000,000 are not hands on 24/7 with those working under them - a coach always has that responsibility; and if one of your workers in the business world gets arrested or does not "graduate" the department head is not fired, but in coaching they are.

Anyone in teaching and coaching can have their career ended by even a 5 year old kindergartner going home and telling a lie...in the business world, you deal only with that employee and not their entire immediate and extended family or a community...

Only the top coaches in NCAA Division I get the BIG bucks!

The last NCAA Division III school I taught and coached at paid me $16,500 to be head coach of two sports - basketball and softball and teach all theory classes to PE majors. The guy who did our laundry and was the men's assistant B-ball coach made more money then I did. At that time, I could have gone out and worked at McDonalds and made more money, but again, I was not in the teaching/coaching professional to make a lot of money...you do this job for all the satisfaction it brings you internally and not externally for the $$$$.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
...But if you want to compare coaching salaries between sports I would suggest comparing women's basketball coaches to gymnastic coaches or other small revenue sports. I don't know what a soccer (men or women), volleyball (men or women) or field hockey coach makes, but I suspect they would be quite happy with the pay that women's basketball coaches make.


Are the workload and hours demanded of a gymnastics, volleyball, or field hockey coach the same as a women's basketball coach at a P5 school? IDK.

summertime blues wrote:
Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties. But for the wife/mother to be gone frequently on recruiting trips or on trips with the team, etc. can put a real strain on things when children are involved. Not all salaries pay enough for a live-in nanny, and not all husbands or partners are able or inclined to manage double duty. But turning the tables, when it's a male coach, it's the norm for the wife to pick up the slack and run things the wife of any other semi-absentee father. Growing up, I lived in a neighborhood with many coaches at what is now called a P5 school, and even in those days, I saw how that worked.


And this is relevant to the pay issue how? Are you suggesting that female coaches with children be paid more than female or male coaches without children?


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 6:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The pay scale for coaches is dependent on several factors, one of which is the income and prestige (which is indirectly income in the form of donations) they bring to the school. There is no question that at the lower levels of college sports many coaches have their coaching responsibilities as only a part of their job. That used to be the case more generally. For those old enough to remember Woody Hayes, the long time Ohio St football coach, also taught history at the school for most of his career.


Coaching is a hard profession, and unless you are a superstar athlete or the child of a coach there are usually hard years at the start. Even if you are making 100K as an assistant coach, working on a year to year basis where you almost always have to move to get a promotion, is difficult. And all of that is true whether you are a man or a woman, and whether you coach a man or a woman's sport.


But I feel much more sympathy for the college athletes in revenue sports than I do for the coaches. They don't get paid anything (I know they get scholarships), they play their sports in addition to a full class load and have all kinds of restrictions. So when I hear the whine of a coach I'm just not that sympathetic.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/08/18 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
The pay scale for coaches is dependent on several factors, one of which is the income and prestige (which is indirectly income in the form of donations) they bring to the school. There is no question that at the lower levels of college sports many coaches have their coaching responsibilities as only a part of their job. That used to be the case more generally. For those old enough to remember Woody Hayes, the long time Ohio St football coach, also taught history at the school for most of his career.


Coaching is a hard profession, and unless you are a superstar athlete or the child of a coach there are usually hard years at the start. Even if you are making 100K as an assistant coach, working on a year to year basis where you almost always have to move to get a promotion, is difficult. And all of that is true whether you are a man or a woman, and whether you coach a man or a woman's sport.


But I feel much more sympathy for the college athletes in revenue sports than I do for the coaches. They don't get paid anything (I know they get scholarships), they play their sports in addition to a full class load and have all kinds of restrictions. So when I hear the whine of a coach I'm just not that sympathetic.


I was pointing out why, or maybe one very good reason why, there may not be more women in coaching. It just is NOT all that easy to juggle more than one job that involves a lot of travel and being uprooted if you have kids, especially at the lower levels.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/09/18 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:

Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties.


In what '50s Leave it to Beaver time warp do you live?

And where that is an issue, that falls on the couple to resolve. That they can't work out an equitable distribution of home responsibilities is not the employer's fault.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/09/18 3:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:

Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties.


In what '50s Leave it to Beaver time warp do you live?

And where that is an issue, that falls on the couple to resolve. That they can't work out an equitable distribution of home responsibilities is not the employer's fault.


How many stay-home dads, or even working dads who assume the greater part of home duties while their wives have jobs that involve a great deal of travel, do YOU know? Just asking.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/09/18 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How is this any different in coaching than in other demanding professions? I don't see how this contributes to Frese's assertions about women leaving coaching for other fields.

Anybody want to break this down by experience, success, and gender to look at a possible pay gap?
http://sportsinfo.pro/WBBSurvey2017.html


PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 06/28/18 11:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
PlayBally'all wrote:


There are a hundred plus other jobs that aren't 9-5 jobs that don't pay nearly as well. I agree that, especially in smaller schools and conferences, the apprenticeship jobs are low paying. However, that is also not unique to this profession.


It's also not unique to women. Does someone think mens assistants in Div 3 schools or even in Div I Big South or Western Athletic conference schools are getting rich?

And if the women's basketball coaching jobs are so oppressive, why are men eagerly snapping up those jobs? I thought it was widely viewed that the M/F split among WCBB coaches was changing because the WCBB jobs were getting to be better paid, not worse, and were thus attracting more male candidates.

If she wanted to demonstrate that male WCBB coaches were getting paid lots more than female WCBB coaches for comparable jobs in the same sport, then there would be a problem to discuss.


Many (not all, but many) women also are expected to juggle the jobs of wife and especially mother along with that of coach, which can be exceedingly difficult, particularly with very young or school age children. It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties. But for the wife/mother to be gone frequently on recruiting trips or on trips with the team, etc. can put a real strain on things when children are involved. Not all salaries pay enough for a live-in nanny, and not all husbands or partners are able or inclined to manage double duty. But turning the tables, when it's a male coach, it's the norm for the wife to pick up the slack and run things the wife of any other semi-absentee father. Growing up, I lived in a neighborhood with many coaches at what is now called a P5 school, and even in those days, I saw how that worked.


This is very, very true. A woman I know just got a head coaching job and her daughter, who will be a high school sophomore, has spent her whole life in the same location. Now the daughter has to move to a completely different area of the country where she knows no one, and her mom will be working a demanding, travel-heavy, time-sucking job. The dad will not be a stay-at-home dad ...

Very difficult situation, though the daughter is completely on board with her mom's decision -- and this is not uncommon. No easy answer.


All of the above has merit. That being said, some of the things mentioned illustrate more about life in general than about the profession. Life isn't fair. Everyone cannot do everything and with most things in life, you must sacrifice in one area if you want more from another.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/28/18 1:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:

How many. . . . working dads who assume the greater part of home duties while their wives have jobs that involve a great deal of travel, do YOU know? Just asking.


Lots. Actually most. Or at least who split it as their respective professional demands require. Mostly highly educated dual professional couples. Couples where either one may be travelling or immersed in 80 hour weeks for weeks at a time because of trials or projects, and they adjust to meet the demands of their family. But then I've spent most of my time living in educated, well-off, modern metropolitan areas (just like Frese does) rather than in backwater Appalachian time warps.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/29/18 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:

How many. . . . working dads who assume the greater part of home duties while their wives have jobs that involve a great deal of travel, do YOU know? Just asking.


Lots. Actually most. Or at least who split it as their respective professional demands require. Mostly highly educated dual professional couples. Couples where either one may be travelling or immersed in 80 hour weeks for weeks at a time because of trials or projects, and they adjust to meet the demands of their family. But then I've spent most of my time living in educated, well-off, modern metropolitan areas (just like Frese does) rather than in backwater Appalachian time warps.


Recent surveys have shown otherwise. Unfortunately I'm not where I have those immediately at hand.



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PostPosted: 07/02/18 1:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Logic me this.

"One reason women say they are opting out of coaching jobs is the pay gap . . . ."

Then, the video claims that the median women's coaching salary is $1,172,400 per year.

So women are fleeing the profession because they can make more than this doing something else? Bull!


Is that total salary or base salary?

I don't know about entire packages, but based on previous 990 forms from ND (tax forms that must be made public that require nonprofits to list the higher paid employees), Muffet McGraw's base salary is actually higher than Mike Brey's.

Then again:

1. She's been at ND longer (I think she's now been at ND longer than any other coach. The track coach who had been longer retired a while ago and the tennis coach who started the same year also retired).

2. She's had more Final Fours and NCs (even though the data is from before her 2nd NC).

3. Her salary is endowed. Karen (Robinson) Keyes (PG from when I was a student) and her husband set up an endowment for her salary.


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 07/02/18 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
It's not as difficult for men, who are likely to have a wife at home to take care of those duties. But for the wife/mother to be gone frequently on recruiting trips or on trips with the team, etc. can put a real strain on things when children are involved.


FWIW, Muffet's husband Matt did the "stay at home" thing. At one point he had a work from home type of job, but I'm guessing her salary now makes that unnecessary. It's probably a good thing he does too since, as one of them once said, Muffet "can't cook her way out of a paper bag..." Wink


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