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Are You the Product of a Private or Public School Education?
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Did you attend primarily private or public schools during your K-12 education?
Public School
78%
 78%  [ 25 ]
Private School
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
Tuition Free Private School
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Attended Both Private and Public Schools
18%
 18%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 32

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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/12/18 5:59 pm    ::: Are You the Product of a Private or Public School Education? Reply Reply with quote

So it's a pretty self explanatory question. Please feel free to add whatever details or input you might know and want to share. Things like cost, curriculum, what community were you and your classmates from primarily, etc. In the event that you attended a private school at little or no cost because you were the member of a church or for some other reason, probably rare or unusual, I've added that response just in case even though it's probably not going to come up.


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 03/12/18 6:56 pm    ::: Re: Are You the Product of a Private or Public School Educat Reply Reply with quote

Four degrees from public schools - two from Purdue and two from Michigan.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/12/18 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public K-12 and undergrad (with 2 years at local community college). Private for my doctorate.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 03/12/18 9:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York City public schools, CUNY college.

Admittedly, I lived in a very good school district for K-8 and selected a good high school for 9-12. (New York high schools are... weird.)



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/12/18 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public schools through HS, then a private university



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 03/12/18 10:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public K-12. All of K-12 in the suburbs and most of it in a sparsely populated suburb, aka "bedroom community". Went to multiple colleges and all were public or "state".




Last edited by tfan on 03/12/18 10:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/12/18 10:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm sorry. I knew I'd fuck this up. I should have put K-12 in the header.


Queenie



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PostPosted: 03/12/18 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I'm sorry. I knew I'd fuck this up. I should have put K-12 in the header.


Well, it's in the poll, so I figured that was the main thrust of your question, but it seemed a natural addition to the data.



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scullyfu



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

k-12: a combo of private (parochial) & public. public K-3, 10-University. private: 4-9 and I never got the tee-shirt for surviving those damned nuns!



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Public schools through HS, then a private university


Ditto.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 8:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I'm sorry. I knew I'd fuck this up. I should have put K-12 in the header.


I misread.

K-12 was public. Where I come from there aren't really private schools.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
k-12: a combo of private (parochial) & public. public K-3, 10-University. private: 4-9 and I never got the tee-shirt for surviving those damned nuns!


Parochial. There's the word I was pawing for yesterday.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

K to 8 were Lutheran parochial schools for me, then Public High School 9 to 12. Public Community College for freshman and sophomore College. Then finished bachelor's degree at Lutheran University. Following that, I taught in Lutheran Schoolsfor the first 10 years of my career. Then finished my career in teaching in public schools. So, pretty evenly split for me between the ages of 5 and 55.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 10:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thank you for all the responses and details. I'm really trying to focus in on who (well, not so much actually identifying anyone) might have attended non-parochial private schools vs. those who attended public schools. And only K-12.

So I should have done this poll like this.

For your K-12 education did you attend...

a) Public or parochial schools or a combination of both.

b) Private schools.

So I'm betting some of the 'both' choice to my question above refers to a combination of public and parochial and not a combination of public and non-parochial private schools?

And I'm wondering about that 1 person who indicated a straight up private school education. Was that person referring to his or her parochial school education or did Glenn respond to the poll. Wink


sambista



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

public schools in chicago, but it was a time when school mattered and students mattered and teachers mattered and teachers cared. which is not to say teachers don’t care now; teachers don’t have the support or resources to teach and care like back in the day. up to eighth grade, my teachers and my mother were all close friends. they played bridge together on the weekends. my teachers were an extension of my home upbringing, and they had license to discipline me as they saw fit. my mother didn’t need a report card because she knew in painful detail everything i was doing and everything i was learning on a daily basis. she knew my strengths and weaknesses as a learner and thinker, and she knew how i was growing and coping in the social dynamic at school. high school was different because we moved to a region with racial . . . challenges . . . in which the adults who should’ve been my mentors didn’t see me accomplishing much after i graduated. they discouraged me from attending college, said it was too expensive and a waste of time, and tried to steer me toward bettering my secretarial skills (that’s when there were classes in typing, stenography, etc.). the quality of education was high, but there was no support or nurturing. (fuck you, portland, oregon!)

private college the first two years, then public university the final two and for grad school. (go, u-dub!)



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 11:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
public schools in chicago, but it was a time when school mattered and students mattered and teachers mattered and teachers cared. which is not to say teachers don’t care now; teachers don’t have the support or resources to teach and care like back in the day. up to eighth grade, my teachers and my mother were all close friends. they played bridge together on the weekends. my teachers were an extension of my home upbringing, and they had license to discipline me as they saw fit. my mother didn’t need a report card because she knew in painful detail everything i was doing and everything i was learning on a daily basis. she knew my strengths and weaknesses as a learner and thinker, and she knew how i was growing and coping in the social dynamic at school. high school was different because we moved to a region with racial . . . challenges . . . in which the adults who should’ve been my mentors didn’t see me accomplishing much after i graduated. they discouraged me from attending college, said it was too expensive and a waste of time, and tried to steer me toward bettering my secretarial skills (that’s when there were classes in typing, stenography, etc.). the quality of education was high, but there was no support or nurturing. (fuck you, portland, oregon!)

private college the first two years, then public university the final two and for grad school. (go, u-dub!)


Here's how that little bit worked where I come from. At least for bad students, which I was. So me and three of my friends met with the guidance counselor. Bad students all. He tells us we're all going in the mill. That's it. Now get out of here. I want to go to music school. So does another of my friends. Somebody else wants to do something else. Everyone swears to God we're never going in no fucking mill. Uh-uh. The guidance counselor was adamant. Get this other bullshit out of our heads, we're all going in the mill. That was that. And the lucky of us four... you guessed it... ended up in the mill.


tfan



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: 03/13/18 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


Yeah this a pretty messy poll come to think of it. So I attended a technically private parochial school in the first and second grade. Mrs. jammer attended the same school through the eight grade as did all of her seven living siblings. If there was a cost, it would have been very very little. I know that because that school only went to the eighth grade and so to continue on to the catholic high school in our area was around $400 a year and very few went for that option and most everyone from the catholic grade school went on to the public high school. So when I think of private schools, or when I’m referring to them, I’m not referring to relatively low cost schools like those that existed in my area, in my day.

So all the attendees of our parochial private grade school were poor working class kids and that’s why I tried to make and maintain a distinction between parochial (a term i swear I haven’t heard in thirty years) or religious schools and the kind of private schools that affluent children attend. Maybe there are specific terms for the kind of private schools I’m referring to that I’m not aware of. At the heart of what I’m doing here is trying to find out how much this group knows about these other private schools. And I’m leaving descriptive adjectives out because I don’t want to influence the kinds of responses we get. Anyway.

It would be telling though if people’s responses here were, hey, our concept of a private school is a parochial school, period.


justintyme



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Posts: 6884
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 03/13/18 12:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


Yeah this a pretty messy poll come to think of it. So I attended a technically private parochial school in the first and second grade. Mrs. jammer attended the same school through the eight grade as did all of her seven living siblings. If there was a cost, it would have been very very little. I know that because that school only went to the eighth grade and so to continue attending thr catholic high school in our area was around $400 a year and very few people went for that option and most everyone from the catholic grade school went on to the public high school. So when I think of private schools, or when I’m referring to them, I’m not referring to relatively low cost schools like those that existed in my area, in my day.

So all the attendees of our parochial private grade school were poor working class kids and that’s why I tried to make and maintain a distinction between parochial (a term i swear I haven’t heard in thirty years) or religious schools and the kind of private schools that affluent children attend. Maybe there are specific terms for the kind of private schools I’m referring to that I’m not aware of. At the heart of what I’m doing here is trying to find out how much this group knows about these other private schools. And I’m leaving descriptive adjectives out because I don’t want to influence the kinds of responses we get. Anyway.

By private schools you seem to be thinking mainly of what we commonly refer to as "prep schools". Highly selective private schools with high tuitions and a focus on being "elite". Less than 1% of students go to one of these.



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Admiral_Needa



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well... since it looks like I am The 1 Person who went to Private School K-12 (and beyond! Shocked), I'll try to elaborate as much as I can remember from the annual meetings and reading the previous year's annual report. Idea


K-8, went to an elite private school with a phenomenal reputation for not only being the best, but also being near impossible to get accepted to. In fact, it was just written up in the SFGate a few months ago under the heading:


Quote:
You know you're a true Marin resident if...

#57 - Have tried in vain getting your kids into Marin Country Day School. Cool

All Marin residents eat wheels of Cowgirl Creamery cheese before pedaling mountain bikes to work at the holistic doctor's office. After a day spent remotely prescribing yoga and refusing to vaccinate children, they recline in pinot-filled hot tubs and overpay nannies for picking up all of the Madisons from the nearby Waldorf Schools.

Many of us carry roughly this perception of our neighbors to the north. Marinites do little to defuse the stereotypes (and the perceived aloofness) when they point out their high life expectancy, median income and quality of life.


https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/marin-you-know-you-grew-up-in-marin-if-9196332.php#photo-4410358


Tuition at Marin Country Day School is $35,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~60. Every year, about 2/3 of the class matriculates to 2 of the best High Schools, not only in California, but in the country: SF University High School and The Branson School. They consistently rank at about #50 and #30 the best private high schools in the USA.

From those 2 High Schools, over 1/3 of the ~100 students matriculate to the Ivy League every year, with another 1/3 matriculating to places like Stanford, MIT, Amherst, CIT, etc.

I got accepted to both, but went to SF University High School primarily because I didn't want to go to both grade school and high school in Marin, all the time while living in Marin. Wanted a new experience.. Razz



Tuition for SF University High School is $50,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~100. The Median GPA is 3.60, SATs: ~1500, APs: >95% scored 3 or above and >75% scored 4 or above.

Unfortunately, because there are so few students, some AP courses are only taught based on demand. For example, they still don't offer an AP Biology, and recently, AP Spanish has been replaced by AP Chinese and AP Computer Science. When I was there, they had AP Spanish and AP Japanese instead of Chinese, and still no AP Biology(!). I got all 5's except for Biology, in which I was lucky to get a 4 considering all I had was an Intro to Biology course I took in my 1st year.. I had enough AP credits to essentially place out of my entire freshman year and then some at Cornell, except for Biology. A 4 only gets you placed out of 1 semester. But I ended up taking both semesters to get the easy A Twisted Evil


Here are some matriculation numbers from the annual report: Arrow

    Harvard University 16
    Princeton University 10
    Yale University 14
    Stanford University 11
    Cornell University 6
    Amherst College 7
    Brown University 8 (Boooo! Laughing)



Interesting side-note: It costs about the same to go to High School as it does to go to Cornell University: ~50k (unless they give you a full scholarship, that is Mr. Green)



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


Yeah this a pretty messy poll come to think of it. So I attended a technically private parochial school in the first and second grade. Mrs. jammer attended the same school through the eight grade as did all of her seven living siblings. If there was a cost, it would have been very very little. I know that because that school only went to the eighth grade and so to continue attending thr catholic high school in our area was around $400 a year and very few people went for that option and most everyone from the catholic grade school went on to the public high school. So when I think of private schools, or when I’m referring to them, I’m not referring to relatively low cost schools like those that existed in my area, in my day.

So all the attendees of our parochial private grade school were poor working class kids and that’s why I tried to make and maintain a distinction between parochial (a term i swear I haven’t heard in thirty years) or religious schools and the kind of private schools that affluent children attend. Maybe there are specific terms for the kind of private schools I’m referring to that I’m not aware of. At the heart of what I’m doing here is trying to find out how much this group knows about these other private schools. And I’m leaving descriptive adjectives out because I don’t want to influence the kinds of responses we get. Anyway.

By private schools you seem to be thinking mainly of what we commonly refer to as "prep schools". Highly selective private schools with high tuitions and a focus on being "elite". Less than 1% of students go to one of these.


Grade schools can be prep school?


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
Well... since it looks like I am The 1 Person who went to Private School K-12 (and beyond! Shocked), I'll try to elaborate as much as I can remember from the annual meetings and reading the previous year's annual report. Idea


K-8, went to an elite private school with a phenomenal reputation for not only being the best, but also being near impossible to get accepted to. In fact, it was just written up in the SFGate a few months ago under the heading:


Quote:
You know you're a true Marin resident if...

#57 - Have tried in vain getting your kids into Marin Country Day School. Cool

All Marin residents eat wheels of Cowgirl Creamery cheese before pedaling mountain bikes to work at the holistic doctor's office. After a day spent remotely prescribing yoga and refusing to vaccinate children, they recline in pinot-filled hot tubs and overpay nannies for picking up all of the Madisons from the nearby Waldorf Schools.

Many of us carry roughly this perception of our neighbors to the north. Marinites do little to defuse the stereotypes (and the perceived aloofness) when they point out their high life expectancy, median income and quality of life.


https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/marin-you-know-you-grew-up-in-marin-if-9196332.php#photo-4410358


Tuition at Marin Country Day School is $35,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~60. Every year, about 2/3 of the class matriculates to 2 of the best High Schools, not only in California, but in the country: SF University High School and The Branson School. They consistently rank at about #50 and #30 the best private high schools in the USA.

From those 2 High Schools, over 1/3 of the ~100 students matriculate to the Ivy League every year, with another 1/3 matriculating to places like Stanford, MIT, Amherst, CIT, etc.

I got accepted to both, but went to SF University High School primarily because I didn't want to go to both grade school and high school in Marin, all the time while living in Marin. Wanted a new experience.. Razz



Tuition for SF University High School is $50,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~100. The Median GPA is 3.60, SATs: ~1500, APs: >95% scored 3 or above and >75% scored 4 or above.

Unfortunately, because there are so few students, some AP courses are only taught based on demand. For example, they still don't offer an AP Biology, and recently, AP Spanish has been replaced by AP Chinese and AP Computer Science. When I was there, they had AP Spanish and AP Japanese instead of Chinese, and still no AP Biology(!). I got all 5's except for Biology, in which I was lucky to get a 4 considering all I had was an Intro to Biology course I took in my 1st year.. I had enough AP credits to essentially place out of my entire freshman year and then some at Cornell, except for Biology. A 4 only gets you placed out of 1 semester. But I ended up taking both semesters to get the easy A Twisted Evil


Here are some matriculation numbers from the annual report: Arrow

    Harvard University 16
    Princeton University 10
    Yale University 14
    Stanford University 11
    Cornell University 6
    Amherst College 7
    Brown University 8 (Boooo! Laughing)



Interesting side-note: It costs about the same to go to High School as it does to go to Cornell University: ~50k (unless they give you a full scholarship, that is Mr. Green)


Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner, folks. Thank you, Admiral, for responding with some really great detail. Fantastic.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 03/13/18 1:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


Well, I would have added that comment after this earlier post:

Quote:
For your K-12 education did you attend...

a) Public or parochial schools or a combination of both.

b) Private schools.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 19568



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Why are you looking for private school versus parochial school/public school? Aren't parochial schools a different environment than public schools - and incur an expense that a majority of parents probably can't afford?


Parochial schools are private schools.


Well, I would have added that comment after this earlier post:

Quote:
For your K-12 education did you attend...

a) Public or parochial schools or a combination of both.

b) Private schools.


Well, I would have thought that parochial being included in choice a) would have indicated that I wasn't looking for it as a possible response for b) but I can see that, and I'm not surprised, it is fuzzy and tricky to try to filter out for cost/class as I was trying to do. And I'm aware that there are, for instance, expensive and elite and highly desirable Catholic K-12 schools that are attended by non-Catholics. The largest private school in the Washington D.C. area is the Charles Smith Jewish Day School with tuitions that look like this.

Grades 2017-2018 Tuition
Gurim Junior Kindergarten $20,850
Lower School (Kindergarten-Grade 5) $26,030
Upper School (Grades 6-11) $33,380
Grade 12 (first semester) $17,070

Obviously I presented this all wrong in trying to weed out based on my own experiences at what a parochial school is versus the kind of private schools I'm really interested in talking about.

I'm not at all interested in discussing what is or what isn't a private school. That's a Rebkell's rabbit hole discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with why I started this thread. I don't have any global initiative here either I just wanted to make an exploration in this group on Rebkell's into this world that I believe is completely unknown to most Americans, but maybe not completely unknown to many here judging on the advanced degrees folks here have achieved.

I also suspected that the kind of schools I'm talking about and would like to initiate some discussion on ... that maybe this group mostly had little or no first hand knowledge of and, depending on where you are in this country, some of the discussion might be eye-opening to you all here. That's why I did a poll to see if any here were actually products of this type of academic upbringing or if, like me, most here had gone to public schools K-12. And personally, I'm always looking to learn from the people here and to have my own perspectives sharpened by this group. Painful as that might sometimes be. Wink

But whatever struggles I might have been having in getting to an illuminating thread discussion focused on the kinds of areas I'm most interested in exploring, the Admiral blew the roof off all that with his contribution. That's the sun opening up the sky after weeks of clouds and rain. That's the kind of first hand perspective I was fishing for on reality as it exists in these places, down to the dollar amount.

Two things. I guess my perspective on a parochial school education which is taken from growing up in a rust belt environment where so many working class kids attended Catholic schools should be pretty much disregarded as a it applies to this thread. But then again, if you went to a freaking Lutheran school K-8 for $1500 a year, out in, wherever the hell Howee's at, I'm not really thinking of that as having practical experience in the world that the Admiral's post describes. You see what I'm saying? Hopefully the Admiral's not the only one nodding his head right now.

At any rate, it shouldn't hang anybody up here, if y'all are that educated n'nat.

So Justin, you said that less than 1% of kids go to these elite K-12 schools? That's interesting. Two thoughts there. I mean, if it's close to 1%, that's still a lot of people. And I'm wondering how that percentage goes up around places like NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc., where the money and the power already is.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So Justin, you said that less than 1% of kids go to these elite K-12 schools? That's interesting. Two thoughts there. I mean, if it's close to 1%, that's still a lot of people. And I'm wondering how that percentage goes up around places like NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc., where the money and the power already is.

The 1% really depends on where you draw the line for these "elite" schools. As you noted, where to draw the line between different types of private schools, where your run-of-the-mill private school crosses into the high-end category, is far from a science.

Money is by far and away the biggest factor in getting kids into these top schools. There are some scholarships for high performing kids, but those are a huge minority. Some schools also are big sports schools that give out scholarships for that as well (Shattuck-St. Mary's here in Minnesota, and their hockey tradition, is an example of that).

But for the most part it is more of the entrenchment of social class and why people who come from money are much more likely to remain in that social class than those who come from without.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

But for the most part it is more of the entrenchment of social class and why people who come from money are much more likely to remain in that social class than those who come from without.


Bingo. And I'll just come out with it. I think these schools, and especially what goes on inside of them, is a huge factor in what maintains the lines perpetuating the economic and social classes in the United States. I think when you turn on your televisions or open a newspaper, you're pretty much getting the perspective of those who attended incredibly expensive K-12 schools, together, and it is a perspective that above all values its own place in the relative scheme of things. That's the reporters and those who the reporters are reporting on either in business, government, or the arts. Anyway. I'll get to what triggered this because it is itself a jammer rabbit hole. Speaking of rabbit holes.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools. We say desirable, hard to get into, etc. Why exactly are those things the take away perspective on these high end private schools? I'm not talking about herd mentality as it exists in Malibu or Sausalito. I'm talking educational nuts and bolts.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not? Heck, can we stream live from those classrooms into some remote classrooms somewhere else? Why wouldn't the elites who send their kids to these schools want us to do ANY of that? Just assuming they wouldn't. Wink


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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.



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PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.


No. I'm wrong here. You don't have to contrast that all with the struggles we have in public schools. That's another rabbit hole. What am I trying to get at?

There's something creative, incredibly creative, happening in these schools. The adults they produce are like advanced aliens compared to most everyone else in this country. They so easily fit into the many so coveted career paths. Curators, conductors, television producers, the diplomatic corps, Google Wink, big city journalism. And on and on. They recognize each other like they all have a third eye only they can see.

We do have to contrast and compare this to public schools but a) we're a long way from even (it appears) starting a conversation about what's going on in these schools and b) we need to MAYBE compare these schools and the results that are a given for them to even our more successful public schools. Start there. What's the differences between the elite private schools and the culture there and the graduates they produce with what is happening in our best public schools.


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PostPosted: 03/13/18 8:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


That's why I quickly added my last post. In the context of what I hope this thread becomes, a discussion of public schools is kind of a non-starter.

OTOH. It's extremely complicated and I would think endlessly interesting subject matter to open up the world of these ultra-expensive K-12 private schools in America to closer scrutiny. And how have we not been doing that for these many decades? Think about that. I hear these anchors on the networks just in the last couple of days during the latest DeVos dust up struggling to work around a conversation sticking to the same tired talking points about our failing public schools. These people producing content around the discussion on education know a lot more about why education worked so well for them and why it’s not working for poorer children than they’re letting on.

And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 12:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


AHHHH. Finally. Your point! Cool

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the statement of your objective: what do you intend to accomplish in that learning experience. (see the likes of: Madeline Hunter) i.e., "Today kiddos, we're going to make wing models that demonstrate Bernoulli's principle. What do you think we need?"

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them. Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."



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Howee



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PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


Horse pucky. And only because they are NOT all "run poorly". Many are splendid.

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not?


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians, for the most part. What I'm saying would make much more sense to you if YOU had to sit in/observe classes in 10 different schools: 5 elite private, 5 public. In 10 different cities. Homogeneity and similarities are surprisingly missing as you compare and contrast them all.

Having BEEN a learner in, and TAUGHT in both settings (yes, Lutheran schools can be on the 'elite' side) the number one difference isn't so 'mystical': IT'S THE PARENTS, AND THE TONES THEY/THEIR COMMUNITY ESTABLISH RE: THE SOCIAL/RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL EXPECTATION. Committed, involved parents produce a better educational milieu, and the teachers are actually secondary to that.

When I was a teacher, I made it a point to spend time each year observing in another school that might be like my own, or different. Across the board, one could predict a general reputation of success by the community involvement invested in the school, not by its tuition rate (or 'freeness').

Another factor is homogeneity. Not necessarily ethnic/racial but cultural and social demographics can be a big factor. I point to Finland, where their PUBLIC SCHOOLS lead the world in productive education, with the highest test standards. WITH LESS TIME SPENT IN SCHOOL THAN AMERICAN KIDS. Michael Moore did a documentary on that not long ago. Couldn't stomach that.

The film was intended to shame Americans, regarding such disparities in educational results. It fails to point out that Finland has a population the size of Kentucky, with even more homogeneity. For them to produce a Better Product is logistically far more practical than here, where we nationalize standard tests to compare kids from Compton and Naperville and White Plains and The Bronx. And our system is designed to include ALL, to evaluate ALL kids, and add them into the National Norms. If Finland had to round up all the Lapp natives above the arctic circle to count them in their scores, hmmm....well, think about it.

I agree, public education doesn't always match the standards some elite private schools may set, but....it's a bit contrived to be a realistic analysis. And it certainly shouldn't serve as grounds for an indictment of ALL public schools.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/14/18 2:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


AHHHH. Finally. Your point! Cool

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the statement of your objective: what do you intend to accomplish in that learning experience. (see the likes of: Madeline Hunter) i.e., "Today kiddos, we're going to make wing models that demonstrate Bernoulli's principle. What do you think we need?"

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them. Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."


Hmm. That's not a statement of my objective. That was the rabbit hole I was trying to avoid. Here's a productive learning tip from jammerbirdi. Read carefully and comprehend what you read.

I'm sorry you think that (whatever it was) is what I should have done in this thread, but I don't know why I would want to skip over the exact conversation I'm most interested in having and instead have a discussion of how we can improve public schools.

I made the point above that there's so much to be learned about elite private K-12 schools, both here on Rebkell's, but also in America, where very few are even aware that schools like this exist at the level they do. So focusing directly on these elite private schools themselves and learning everything we can about them is what really interests me here and honestly it's interested me for a very long time. I want to focus and talk about super expensive private K-12 schools and who goes there, how much they cost, curriculum, typical days, etc. (as I stated above.) I really want to know what parents who send their children there think about the importance of these schools and why and who those parents are.

As only one person here has attended and received a K-12 education in this type of learning environment, I know all of you here have as much to learn about this as I do. You guys can talk about anything you want to talk about but this is why I started this thread. I don't want to get drawn down a rabbit hole of what exactly is a private school and I've tried to be self-deprecating but I also am not interested in talking about what I did wrong.

Let the sunshine in, people. This elite private school world is not your world or my world. It is outside any of our experiences educationally, socially, or economically. If you want to talk about it, blow the roof of all this other shit and let the light in and talk about it. If not, don't talk about it.

I think for me, I would add or admit that there is a political aspect to all of this. I'm incredibly concerned (that's a nice word) about growing economic inequality and what is behind it and what can be done to mitigate it. I would not shy away from joining a class warfare army. I feel the elites in this country have been waging and winning a class war against everyone else for a very long time but their efforts have been paying off so well in the last few decades as to have created something grotesque and unacceptable in America.

So in order to foment greater anger and dissatisfaction and give people the rhetoric to match their outrage, or the outrage they don't even have yet on this subject, I think it's important to dissect and understand everything that helps to create this growing inequality. And, as I said, I put the importance of what the children of the affluent get from these private school educations at the forefront of what gives elites the tools, networks, and shared experiences to perpetuate what has turned them into a dynasty in America.


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 4:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


Horse pucky. And only because they are NOT all "run poorly". Many are splendid.

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not?


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians, for the most part. What I'm saying would make much more sense to you if YOU had to sit in/observe classes in 10 different schools: 5 elite private, 5 public. In 10 different cities. Homogeneity and similarities are surprisingly missing as you compare and contrast them all.

Having BEEN a learner in, and TAUGHT in both settings (yes, Lutheran schools can be on the 'elite' side) the number one difference isn't so 'mystical': IT'S THE PARENTS, AND THE TONES THEY/THEIR COMMUNITY ESTABLISH RE: THE SOCIAL/RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL EXPECTATION. Committed, involved parents produce a better educational milieu, and the teachers are actually secondary to that.

When I was a teacher, I made it a point to spend time each year observing in another school that might be like my own, or different. Across the board, one could predict a general reputation of success by the community involvement invested in the school, not by its tuition rate (or 'freeness').

Another factor is homogeneity. Not necessarily ethnic/racial but cultural and social demographics can be a big factor. I point to Finland, where their PUBLIC SCHOOLS lead the world in productive education, with the highest test standards. WITH LESS TIME SPENT IN SCHOOL THAN AMERICAN KIDS. Michael Moore did a documentary on that not long ago. Couldn't stomach that.

The film was intended to shame Americans, regarding such disparities in educational results. It fails to point out that Finland has a population the size of Kentucky, with even more homogeneity. For them to produce a Better Product is logistically far more practical than here, where we nationalize standard tests to compare kids from Compton and Naperville and White Plains and The Bronx. And our system is designed to include ALL, to evaluate ALL kids, and add them into the National Norms. If Finland had to round up all the Lapp natives above the arctic circle to count them in their scores, hmmm....well, think about it.

I agree, public education doesn't always match the standards some elite private schools may set, but....it's a bit contrived to be a realistic analysis. And it certainly shouldn't serve as grounds for an indictment of ALL public schools.


Good stuff but I'm not interested in public schools right now. I'm interested in elite private schools. You say you were a student and a teacher at some point in schools of that type? Okay, that's interesting to me. Where? How much were the tuitions? Who were the parents, how elite, etc?

I don't know what political scam I'm falling into. I've screwed up the specificity of a poll question and sort of bungled the focus a bit here as a result. I could have saved a lot of time by getting to the point of what can we do to make public schools better. Now I'm falling for a political scam.

Howee, much respect for your decades of experience across the board in education. I really would like to have a discussion about elite private K-12 schools. Not 'can be' elite schools. The educational and social exposure these kids get in the kinds of schools I'm talking about prepare them to be who they are and will be in life. And who they will be in life are the one percent.

I don't know if you're suggesting it doesn't matter what goes on in their schools, or that it varies too much to be of value to discuss, but I live in a different world than you do and I don't believe those things. I've existed in their midst for 30 years. I know who and what I'm talking about.

Certainly, I think we can get to a discussion of whether any of it is transferable to parts of the rest of the country and across different classes and backgrounds. But that's at this point really like a different subject. I maintain that there exists right now a machinery that perpetuates inequality in this country and the private school education that the children of the affluent receive is an integral part of what helps them to maintain and hold together the shared affluence of an entire class.

So that's what I want to talk about. You may not believe what I believe. That's fine. I don't like to pull out the 'C' card but remember I'm coming from a different place than you are. Other than Beverly Hills and Santa Monica High Schools, I ONLY see private schools on the Westside of LA. And K-8, forgetaboutit. You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 4:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:



Here are some matriculation numbers from the annual report: Arrow

    Harvard University 16
    Princeton University 10
    Yale University 14
    Stanford University 11
    Cornell University 6
    Amherst College 7
    Brown University 8 (Boooo! Laughing)




This is exactly what I'm talking about. It’s a pipeline and it's just one school.


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 7:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


You have to consider what goes into them. They only admit students who have the background, home support, and interest to achieve scholastically. Public schools try to educate everyone, even those who don't have educated family to help with their work, don't have access to learning material at home, or don't want to do any more than the bare minimum. It's like presenting a coach a bunch of players who have never played basketball, aren't especially athletic, and don't want to be on the team, then wondering why he can't make them play like UConn.



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PostPosted: 03/14/18 10:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Schools are much like a garden- you reap what you sow. I was fortunate enough to be in a good district, in a cohort of kids with extremely involved parents. My elementary school didn't have a PTA- it had a PA, because the parents ran that motha with an iron fist, and only worked with teachers who were willing to work with them instead of resting on their tenured laurels.

We were also a slightly unusual cohort in that a large chunk of us chose the same small high school instead of going to the zoned school, and thus the parents were able to stay together and maintain a power base.

But money talks. I don't think the parents at my elementary school could have done what they did if we weren't in a upper-middle-class district, and in one of the best schools in the district, zoned not only to the upper-middle-class portion of the neighborhood but also to the extremely tony portion of the neighborhood. Love and passion can only take you up to the register; after that, it's up to cash and credit.

And time matters. You get out what you put in; if parents aren't available to push both kids and administration, you're not going to get the best results. One of my friends from fifth grade on was a special needs student, and his mother had to fight and claw for every accommodation he needed. That was essentially her job. If she had to pull a 9-to-5 on top of that, or work multiple jobs, she wouldn't have had the time to do that, and he would have fallen behind.

The big money private schools are going to have the easiest time with both of those, because they attract people who have both the money to spend and the time to spend it. If you could pour those kinds of resources into every kid to find out how best they learn and how to get them to learn, yeah, you could give every kid the same level of education. But that involves actually paying attention to individuals and tweaking programs, instead of going one-size-fits-all, and no public administration is going to do that.



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PostPosted: 03/14/18 12:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll just shotgun a few things.

I went to public school from K-12 in Staten Island, NY, which is a borough of New York City, but which in the 1950's was suburban and rural with many farms and forests. From grade 3 in grammar school through grade 12 in high school, I was in the same homeroom as most of my friends. That's because both schools organized homerooms by academic potential and we were all in the top academic tier homeroom. We were all sort of lower-middle to middle- middle class economically, but virtually everyone was from a two parent home. I was the first in my family born in America.

Looking at my 8th grade homeroom graduation photo of 35 kids in 1958, of the half I know the future of, we had four M.D.'s, three Ph.D's (one in physics who ended up at SLAC, the other in psychology who became a university provost and president), one J.D., three engineers, and several nurses and school teachers.

I have degrees from three private universities (Columbia, Harvard, NYU) and one public (FSU). Many, many of my classmates in the Ivy League had attended the most elite prep schools and were from money.

Among other things, I've taught three years in NYC public middle schools, on a law school faculty and on a graduate business school faculty.

In my first year as a 7th and 8th grade teacher on the lower east side of Manhattan, I taught a class in mathematics for non-English speaking students. The students were all either from Puerto Rico or Taiwan/Hong Kong. i spoke neither Spanish nor Chinese. Some of the Puerto Rican kids did not even know how to count, while most of the Chinese kids could already do 9th grade algebra. Many of the Hispanic kids were from single parent or multiple family homes. In this neighborhood, the tires on your car were often slashed. The year was a real challenge.

I naively believed that if I got a top flight education in public schools, so could my kids. What a tragic mistake. We were moving all around the country because of my job, and some of the public schools were atrocious. My daughter was in four different high schools in four years, two private and two public. My sons were in almost as many schools and had learning challenges that the public schools could not address.

Based upon my experience and my daughter's, her daughter is now in Kindergarten in a private Catholic school. Unfortunately, due to declining enrollments, money and nunneries, many Catholic schools are now out of business or operating on a shoestring, and are not as educationally potent as they were 50-100 years ago.
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


You have to consider what goes into them. They only admit students who have the background, home support, and interest to achieve scholastically. Public schools try to educate everyone, even those who don't have educated family to help with their work, don't have access to learning material at home, or don't want to do any more than the bare minimum. It's like presenting a coach a bunch of players who have never played basketball, aren't especially athletic, and don't want to be on the team, then wondering why he can't make them play like UConn.


Yeah, excellent dose of reality there and no doubt about any of it. So we can say it starts in the home, in the qualities inherent in parents of a certain level of affluence and background. But we can also just factually recognize the reality that in all things they are doing the job of replicating themselves and that starts with everything that goes into preparing their offspring to fill their shoes. And this is why I want to take the discussion away (now that I have a bit more focus and clarity) from what's different or what's going wrong in the public school system and dig deeper into what's going on in the schools these most affluent Americans send their children to. We can't change everything. We can't magically replace our own grandma with one who was the economics chair at Stanford. So I think because all of this starts with kindergarten and first graders we have to understand what makes these schools so important to the parents who (sometimes) fight to get their kids in them. I say sometimes because I don't believe it's only about a school like the one that Admiral attended. There's clearly enough of these schools to handle all of the children of affluence. So I think you focus on what you can focus on. There is no doubt concrete differences in the approaches and treatments that happen inside those schools matter and serve the purposes and demands of the parents.


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Schools are much like a garden- you reap what you sow. I was fortunate enough to be in a good district, in a cohort of kids with extremely involved parents. My elementary school didn't have a PTA- it had a PA, because the parents ran that motha with an iron fist, and only worked with teachers who were willing to work with them instead of resting on their tenured laurels.

We were also a slightly unusual cohort in that a large chunk of us chose the same small high school instead of going to the zoned school, and thus the parents were able to stay together and maintain a power base.

But money talks. I don't think the parents at my elementary school could have done what they did if we weren't in a upper-middle-class district, and in one of the best schools in the district, zoned not only to the upper-middle-class portion of the neighborhood but also to the extremely tony portion of the neighborhood. Love and passion can only take you up to the register; after that, it's up to cash and credit.

And time matters. You get out what you put in; if parents aren't available to push both kids and administration, you're not going to get the best results. One of my friends from fifth grade on was a special needs student, and his mother had to fight and claw for every accommodation he needed. That was essentially her job. If she had to pull a 9-to-5 on top of that, or work multiple jobs, she wouldn't have had the time to do that, and he would have fallen behind.

The big money private schools are going to have the easiest time with both of those, because they attract people who have both the money to spend and the time to spend it. If you could pour those kinds of resources into every kid to find out how best they learn and how to get them to learn, yeah, you could give every kid the same level of education. But that involves actually paying attention to individuals and tweaking programs, instead of going one-size-fits-all, and no public administration is going to do that.


Slammin'. I thought you might provide some of the best insights not just because you're Queenie but because you're where you are. You would have kind of almost necessarily seen it all and it sounds like you have.

So I'm a believer that little nudges here and there in the right direction can make huge differences in people's lives decades later. I can point to small things when I was a child in an ocean of violence and negativity and ignorance that were integral in giving me a spark that I might end up where I wanted to be. So I don't think, if I were moving on to trying to fix what's wrong in American public schools, that you're going to solve our public school problems across the board by replicating private school educations. Which I'm sure all reasonable people would agree is impossible. But I think you can reach and help out millions of kids with just a nudge here and there by borrowing some things from what these schools set out to do and how they do it.

But I'm still in the angry political mode. I want to trace the elites who shape the course of our events back to their private schools roots. I would dream of creating an understanding in America of how much any of this really matters in determining future success in the modern world. I would want to see Americans with a greater understanding of who is shaping their world and why the world being shaped works so much better for those who are shaping it than it does for the rest of us.

I'd love to see the start of a process of exposing the basis of why these people are different from us and why they ultimately are going to be okay even if those on the bottom end of the economy are being devastated. And then let's find out that the policies and decisions are being made by people who went to private K-12 schools that seamlessly led them to Harvard and Yale. You can't have a class war if you don't know the enemy. And I believe these people, those affluent enough to afford $20-35K per year for a K-12 education for their kids, are among the true enemies of greater economic equality.

So yeah, I am interested in what can be learned from all of this that would be helpful in educating young people in this country. But I'm also dreaming of a big awakening that first would start with a focus on the fact that these schools exist, what goes on inside of them, who the parents are, the fact that they can be pipelines to Ivy League schools, with an explanation that sticks of what that all means, the implications for both them and for us, and on and on.

I guess I want a LOT from this thread. Wink And from those schools and from the extremely affluent families that both feed and feed off of their existence.

And I have to add that, being in California, an empire of politically liberal and progressive affluence, I wouldn't mind exposing what I might consider to be glaring widespread hypocrisy here by people who purport to be all about inclusion and lifting others up but really could be at their most basic core values more about making sure that no one ever catches up with them or their damn kids.

Anyway. I ain't askin' much.

(See, Howee. Eventually I do get to the point. Razz Even if I don't know myself exactly what that point is when I start something.)


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PostPosted: 03/14/18 8:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"





I remember officially visiting another private high school that I got accepted to and sitting in on a Spanish II class. The first observation I made was that the room was small, and the class was large (20). Moreover, the class was so large that several students had to resort to sitting on end-tables, window-sills, backpacks, and the professor had to stand for the whole class because there weren't enough chairs. I also noticed that the students were asking a lot of questions that I already knew as an 8th grader. This was supposed to be a sophomore-level Spanish class... Shocked

Of course, since then, that school made many great improvements and Marin Catholic is now considered one of the best private high schools in California. Tuition is $21,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~180. In fact, if you follow football, the 2016 #1 NFL Draft Pick, Jared Goff, went there. He then went on to UC Berkeley, which is frequently rated as the #1 Public University in the USA. After that, he became the starting QB of the LA Rams. Cool


I'm not aware of that Berkeley documentary you mentioned, but if you happen to remember the title, let me know. I'll add it to my movie queue. Sounds interesting. And if you're interested, there recently was a documentary made about SF University High, my high school. Perhaps it does well to put a face on these private school students and also works to keep them from being dehumanized here. It's about the 2010 Girl's Cross Country team who got national attention after one of the runners made an inspirational crawl to the finish line, and credited everything to her coach who had been diagnosed with ALS. She later went on to Colgate University, a private college ranked #12 in National Liberal Arts Colleges, and she is now an investment consultant. Idea



Quote:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/O7BW1vxL1oo?start=3" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tracy is often credited with building a running dynasty at University High — a description that’s hard to resist for the winningest high school cross country coach in California history. But despite the many honors bestowed upon him, the humble Tracy would be the last to claim the honor.

“Dealing with a coach they love who is diagnosed with a fatal disease forced the whole team to break out of their insular teenage minds and made them appreciate their own health and their own lives,” she says. “It’s given them a greater perspective on life.”


ABC News - Published on Dec 3, 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Evj2ecqDi0



And if you were watching the 2018 Olympics in Korea, Jonny Moseley, the Gold Medalist who was doing commentary for all the freestyle skiing events, went to my high school's rival, The Branson School. He lives in Tiburon as well, and he was at Marin Country Day School at the same time I was. I still see him around town at times. Nice guy. Razz



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PostPosted: 03/15/18 1:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When I was 9 my parents moved, and one of their main considerations was the quality of the public school system in the community. The taxes were very high so they were to some extent paying for my education, but that was a different time, I went through the public school system and then moved on to what I believe is still the best public university in the nation.

While I have nothing against private schools and I believe there is a place for them, particularly for religious schools or college preparatory schools, I also believe we must maintain high standards at public schools and not let them devolve into schools for those who don't have a better choice.


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PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool

I'm not sure where THAT came from...."wrong" wasn't my concern: I just wanted to assist you in attaining clarity and succinctness (but I give up. Laughing )
So now, I am taking it that the "objective" of your thread is to analyze the claim that elitist educational systems are a foundational pillar to the (eventual) ruling by the exclusive upper class. Correct?



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PostPosted: 03/15/18 3:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool


I'm not sure where THAT came from...."wrong" wasn't my concern:


Hmm.

Howee wrote:

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the [b]statement of your objective...

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could p... Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."


Howee wrote:


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians


I'm sorry. All of this sounds to me like you're saying that I've a) approached something the wrong way [didn't begin with a statement of my objective] b) done something the wrong way [might have saved some time if I hadn't] or c) am thinking about something the wrong way [I'm falling for a scam]

But maybe I'm just wrong again.

Howee wrote:

So now, I am taking it that the "objective" of your thread is to analyze the claim that elitist educational systems are a foundational pillar to the (eventual) ruling by the exclusive upper class. Correct?


No... just no. Howee, I've never known two people on Rebkell's who, with no real animosity at all towards each other, seemed to have such a problem communicating. Don't take it personally, it's just a chemistry thing I suppose, but I'm done responding to you in the context of this thread.


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PostPosted: 03/15/18 4:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
Perhaps it does well to put a face on these private school students and also works to keep them from being dehumanized here.


When I started this thread, I was intentionally ambiguous (at best) about where I was going with it and I say that about half way up the page somewhere. But I didn't want to ever explicitly express any class based political hostility to those here who might have attended elite private schools and, unfortunately, I think it did end up coming across that way.

Initially I didn't want people to look at something like hostility in the opening post here and decide that this thread was based on a vibe that's truly unfriendly towards people like themselves and that they're not going to share any information here to a hostile environment.

So as that intentional lack of clarity became sort of a stumbling block for some, and after I felt that there was a significant response, and, honestly, after you blew the lid off the thread by opening up about Bay Area private schools, then I started using this thread as a note-pad in jotting down my issues with the entire idea of ultra-expensive K-12 private schools and those who attend them.

So I think looking back at some of my rhetoric I probably overcorrected. I hope you don't feel like I was out to 'get' anyone here who went to private school and that you don't regret participating by providing all this information you provided. You cut to the chase in helping me make my points from a California perspective to people who don't live here.

I don't believe that on an individual basis that parents who send their kids to elite private schools are the 'enemies of greater equality' or whatever I said. I think the fact that this practice has grown to what it is, for all the reasons it has, makes the impact of the system of ultra-elite private schools and, unfortunately, many who do attend and who grow up in that system, sort of a barrier to fixing or correcting the gross inequality that is only getting worse in America.

I don't generally disparage people I don't know on an individual basis and not for being rich or sending their kids to private schools. If I had kids, I don't think there's any doubt I would elect to send them to the best private schools I could afford and get them into.

I have a problem with grotesque inequality in America. That inequality begins, on an individual basis, with the upbringing of successive generations of elites one child at a time. It reaches its zenith, at least in this country, when those kids grow up to be elites who influence the decisions our political leaders make, the information flow to the public, the functions of the economy, and how all of that impacts not only the affluent themselves but also the other 99% of Americans.

You certainly know, as you pointed out, how one elite private school leads to another and then on to an Ivy League education and you know how people of a certain economic class view what comes out of an Ivy League education. There was a New Yorker article probably a decade ago (and we might have had a thread somewhere if not here) that talked about this exact topic. People even then in the Upper East Side, etc. if they couldn't get their kids into Harvard, they maintained, and the article seemed to endorse the idea, that their kids would have a diminished future. Second tier law firms, etc. Boo hoo.

So, to be honest, for me this is all just unquestioned reality. I've been where I am long enough, surrounded by people who went to private schools, that I too can now spot the third eye on their foreheads. lol. Anyway. I apologize if some of my rhetoric sounded like an attack or if it seemed I set a trap or something. I just didn't want to close down the discussion and more than anyone else I wanted people who had gone to elite private schools to weigh in.


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PostPosted: 03/15/18 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
No... just no. Howee, I've never known two people on Rebkell's who, with no real animosity at all towards each other, seemed to have such a problem communicating. Don't take it personally, it's just a chemistry thing I suppose, but I'm done responding to you in the context of this thread.

Well, thank you. I shall perceive that as a badge of honor, and be fine with it. Cool

Now. Is there anyone else on this thread who CAN translate for me? Shocked



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PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"


Public schools in America have tried just about everything. I have asked for the last 25 years why we don't try somewhere to replicate as best as it can be done, some of the processes and strategies the affluent employ to educate their children. Because while American public schools are falling behind, there really are never any problems with the elites in this country, or around the world, replicating themselves, with all their deep understanding of history, economics, politics, the arts, etc. all the shared educational background that allows them to go on to become magazine editors, museum curators, etc. I'm not even focusing on the professional fields. And I think, two of the most important aspects that come out of any of this are the ease people acquire with both language and the ability to get on with each other. I'm not sure the facility with language comes from school with these kids though. I think that pretty much is established earlier from the parents and the family.

I'd be embarrassed to share my own educational experiences. But I remember being placed in both the higher tiered history and English classes while at the same time, trying to avoid all of that and electively put myself more into the vocational classes. Huge huge mistake that I finally corrected after a year.

I can't pretend to know what's wrong with public education in America or articulate it myself with the kind of grasp of terms and trends that would indicate I should be talking about it at all. But I can continue to point out that we have, in this very country, not Switzerland or Belgium, an educational system that produces elites who are on the level with those in any European aristocracy and the belief that there is much to be learned by the kind of creative learning atmospheres that would have to exist in elite private K-12 schools in order to produce the results they produce.

So I don't get the flailing away that seems to happen decade after decade in public schools. And the focus on the failures that result from it all. Can we not focus somewhat on what is working so marvelously well for these other people?

So what you don't get in this country all that much is the people standing up and saying with specificity that this or that is what we want. They're massaged and manipulated on just about every political matter in the spectrum of public discourse. But I think if they knew more about elite private schools, as I've said, they might demand some kind of different approaches to the education of their own kids. I know I've seen Frontline documentaries on public schools in both districts that are failing miserably and those that are exceeding national averages etc. And the heartbreaking stories of families trying to get their kids into those better schools and all the shit they go through to do that. So that's what we're ACTUALLY doing to people in this country. Making them scramble for educational competence and the right teachers and facilities and computers, etc. Or else their kids are going to grow up to greatly diminished futures.

But these are the stories we focus on. This is what the Frontline and other documentaries and news features report on. But the people who make those documentaries, I will contend, the network execs who green light the content, etc. they're so likely at this point to be the product themselves of private school educations. Maybe in Glenn's day these schools weren't as prolific as they have become but they've been around for a long time. But people are not going to turn a camera on themselves or the systems that enable them to be who they are.

Anyway. I think one way to start change is to shine a light on what really works and why. Create some class resentment and some demand in the public at large. I mean, just look at it from the perspective of one smart talented kid who grows up enduring the crappy school environment he or she must endure who then learns of the shining special world of the private K-12 school and the guilded path that lies ahead for those students. I mean, in 2018, this isn't simply a problem. This is a fucking cancer. It's at the root of inequality in America. Some aspects of it are unavoidable, as Queenie points out, money will always win out. But you have to have some thing that works as a correction. Instead, we just have our continuing failure and flailing away in the public schools system.

25 years ago. I remember so well. On the left here in California you had this very common cry from progressives warning that we were on the road to being India. A two-tier society. The haves and the have-nots. That was when the left was about class issues and the subjugation of the majority under the foot of an entrenched elite and not what they are now which is all about identity politics surrounding social issues that matter most now to no one MORE, incredibly, than an affluent and well-educated upper tier of American society.

I've lived and worked in Beverly Hills now for over 30 years. I can't even begin to tell you how much this place has changed in that time. The ultra wealthy were always here. But the thing that made California magical is that the class distinctions, the hard lines that are drawn back east that everyone who came here from other places knew so well, they were all but invisible here in California. If you fit in based on who you were, you fit in pretty much anywhere with anyone and you were welcome. The place was nothing at all like back east in terms of that old class snobbery.

Now this place is unrecognizable. It's like Geneva meets Dubai. And the Americans who are here are of a class and station that is like something that was rarely seen in the old days. Now Americans here, and I would surmise it is largely due to the presence of so many ultra-wealthy foreigners, seem to be free to indulge their class differences in ways that weren't really seen decades ago in LA. Things were a little more dressed down here. Laid back. Remember? Now you can look at a group of people on a street corner and say, yep, every one of those stuffed shirts came out of private schools, whether those schools were in Brussels or Pacific Palisades.

So I guess I'm wondering if there's been a proliferation of more and more high-end private schools in places like California. We know the affluent of the world are coalescing themselves and coming together in terms of their mutual self-interests and influence in multiple unofficial affluence capitals around the world, this being one of them. So if there are now many more private K-12 schools in someplace like LA or the Bay Area are they springing up to absorb the influx of the children of ultra-wealthy internationals who more and more are nesting here in California?


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PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Los Angeles has the most private K-12 schools of any city in the US. The proliferation started in the late 70's and early 80's when the city finally came up with then began enforcing a plan to desegregate public schools. The white flight from the public school system in LA surpasses every other place in the country.



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