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readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 11:57 am    ::: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

C'mon. You know who you are. Let's hear you defend her record at Duke. Or admit you've defended her only to get under the skin of longtime DWB fans.



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Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She's an excellent recruiter and her players seldom get in trouble.

She is above mediocre.

She has name recognition and doesn't dress in an embarrassing way.

That's all I got.




Last edited by Fighting Artichoke on 03/04/18 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are worse coaches



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readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
She's an excellent recruiter and her player seldom get in trouble.

She is above mediocre.

She has name recognition and doesn't dress in an embarrassing way.

That's all I got.


The operative word here is WAS. She WAS an excellent recruiter. Those days are gone and ain't coming back.

Thanks for playing.



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Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
There are worse coaches

We should really write reference letters and eulogies.


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
There are worse coaches


At P5 schools, there's Kevin McGuff. That's all I got. And when you include how much a program has declined under their tenure, McCallie's got him beat.



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Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Fighting Artichoke wrote:
She's an excellent recruiter and her player seldom get in trouble.

She is above mediocre.

She has name recognition and doesn't dress in an embarrassing way.

That's all I got.


The operative word here is WAS. She WAS an excellent recruiter. Those days are gone and ain't coming back.

Thanks for playing.

She's not at the high level of a few years ago, and certainly the 2018 was disappointing, but she got Boykin and Williams in 2017, Odom in 2016, Salvadores, Lambert, and Gorecki in 2015, and Calhoun, Belton and Stevens in 2014. The years before those were at least as impressive. Sure a bunch of them leave, but she still convinces them to join in the first place.


SDHoops



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You guys should've appreciated GG more and not acted so damn spoiled!


SDHoops



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 2:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

McCallie had one good year at Michigan State where she beat UConn and Tennessee in arguably their worst years in that era, only to get embarrassed by Mulkey in the championship.


bucks4now



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 2:36 pm    ::: Re: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
C'mon. You know who you are. Let's hear you defend her record at Duke. Or admit you've defended her only to get under the skin of longtime DWB fans.


Why do you do this to yourself? We all know how you feel. I'm not happy with McGuff but I'm not going out and looking for a fight. Take your stand by taking some action, no matter how big or small. I didn't go to the Big Ten Tourney this year and I've told them that I'm not buying season tickets next year.

Don't allow some faceless people on a message board torment you.


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:15 pm    ::: Re: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

bucks4now wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
C'mon. You know who you are. Let's hear you defend her record at Duke. Or admit you've defended her only to get under the skin of longtime DWB fans.


Why do you do this to yourself? We all know how you feel. I'm not happy with McGuff but I'm not going out and looking for a fight. Take your stand by taking some action, no matter how big or small. I didn't go to the Big Ten Tourney this year and I've told them that I'm not buying season tickets next year.

Don't allow some faceless people on a message board torment you.


Tormented? It's redemption time! And I'm sorry about your coach. Women ballers deserve better coaching than the kids at Duke and Ohio State are getting. This is what true fans do. We support each other when our team has a stinker of a coach and do what we can to lift up our sport.

As you are likely aware, there have been literally thousands of Duke fans who've written to the powers that be and attendance at games has decreased every year. But, because women's basketball matters little to none in the eyes of the Duke (& other schools') AD, there has been no action in response to all the critics. Her critics include former players who, when they come back to campus, do not include her in the people they come to see. Pretty much the polar opposite of players who keep up communication with their coaches for years after they've played, DWB players can't wait until they no longer have to communicate in any way with JPM.

It is sad that some here think these things are funny and will go to great lengths to defend this coach. The actions of players and fans speak for themselves. She stinks and she's bad for the game.



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PRballer



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duke is not the program it was once nor that it should be or could be. Duke is a top school nationally with a women’s basketball tradition and the coach is clearly not elite and certainly not capable of winning big games.

This hurts the game. Do you see the empty seats in Cameron? Do you see the empty seats today in Greeensboro?

Duke should have gotten rid of her after she missed the tournament in 2016 and lost her two best players. Enough.


PRballer



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duke is not the program it was once nor that it should be or could be. Duke is a top school nationally with a women’s basketball tradition and the coach is clearly not elite and certainly not capable of winning big games.

This hurts the game. Do you see the empty seats in Cameron? Do you see the empty seats today in Greeensboro?

Duke should have gotten rid of her after she missed the tournament in 2016 and lost her two best players. Enough.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:24 pm    ::: Re: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

However McCallie has failed at Duke, it's not half as bad as what Versyp has done at Purdue. One of those teams spent most of this season ranked and the other is missing the tournament again.


bucks4now



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My point is why start a thread like this? I've followed the drama at Duke. I have a friend who had a relative recruited by her to go to Maine and decided she decided to go to Michigan State instead only to have her hired there. It's a bad situation. But why invite people into an argument with you? It's not a healthy mindset.

I've told people that I wanted to ask Gene Smith for a 50% refund of my season tickets because they play no defense.

I wouldn't start a thread and tell people to "write things to get me upset". It's not worth the energy. I grew up bleeding Scarlet and Grey but I'm not going to put myself in a situation asking people to "piss me off".

I'm not defending Coach P in any way an it's sad that there is a mess there.


PRballer



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:47 pm    ::: Re: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
However McCallie has failed at Duke, it's not half as bad as what Versyp has done at Purdue. One of those teams spent most of this season ranked and the other is missing the tournament again.


True. And you have a national championship banner hanging in the rafters and a popular and successful men’s program.

Sharon’s gotta go too!


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duke plays in a tough conference. They finished in the upper half of the standings. Tha players rarely get in public trouble (which cannot be said of the men’s teamj. The players are generally academically successful. They will probably get into the NCAA based on past reputation.

On the other hand:
Players leave almost every year. The team has some embarrassing losses and got bounced from the tournament early. They probably won’t get a great seed. She can be very, very embarrassing the way she talks about players, her own or opponents. She’s not good at developing players.

Your turn.



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readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 8:49 pm    ::: Re: Time to hear from McCallie defenders Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
However McCallie has failed at Duke, it's not half as bad as what Versyp has done at Purdue. One of those teams spent most of this season ranked and the other is missing the tournament again.


You make a good point. Purdue has not been a contender since the Kristy Curry coaching fiasco. Guess they're happy the coaching staff is no longer committing violations. (bad joke). Your program clearly deserves better.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All in context.

Very true, Duke is NOT what it was when I followed them closely (GG, Ali, Lindsay, Karima, Abby, etc.). Is this just one way teams de-volve into obscurity? Think: Immaculata, Old Dominion, UNC, Virginia, LaTech.

Texas? Declines after Jodi C's departure, and cannot be resurrected, even with Duke's heroine....but now is ascending. There's proof it ain't ALL 'bout A Good Coach. Context.

I am certainly not a Coach P fan. And she is easy to single out as a major culprit. But a program's karma is typically a product of more than one person....isn't it? But then, I think....take Geno or Tara out of their respective equations. Kim gone from Baylor? Pat dies and....no, wait. Maybe it IS all about the coach.



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goforit77



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

McCallie is a coach you hate if she is the coach of your team....Others don't have to deal with her as closely so they dont get the full effect.

Also Kevin White isn't firing her or buying her out so unless you can find a grass roots way to make her leave Duke is stuck with her.


blaase22



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 3:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duke should be a lot better than they are!!!


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 12:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
[She's not at the high level of a few years ago, and certainly the 2018 was disappointing, but she got Boykin and Williams in 2017, Odom in 2016, Salvadores, Lambert, and Gorecki in 2015, and Calhoun, Belton and Stevens in 2014. The years before those were at least as impressive. Sure a bunch of them leave, but she still convinces them to join in the first place.


You named 9 players. 3 of them transferred - one after two seasons, one turned professional after one year, and the third left in the middle of her first season.

This year's recruiting class has three players, all of whom having rankings by national recruiting services over 100.


Durantula



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 6:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I know she has the reputation of a great recruiter but from what I hear she is not a very active recruiter, does not recruit much, her assistants carry a huge load. So when you are not winning as much as you used to then it becomes hard to recruit well. So Duke's decline in recruiting is not that surprising. To lose what Duke loses this year and to bring in that class they have is rough I mean out go Brown and Greenwell and you can't get a single top 75 player to replace them? I'd sign more guards than posts because they signed Williams and Treece in the class before. The guards the have all have serious injury histories now so hard to pencil them in for a full season of play. Talking Boykin, Lambert, and Gorecki.


Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 1:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
Fighting Artichoke wrote:
[She's not at the high level of a few years ago, and certainly the 2018 was disappointing, but she got Boykin and Williams in 2017, Odom in 2016, Salvadores, Lambert, and Gorecki in 2015, and Calhoun, Belton and Stevens in 2014. The years before those were at least as impressive. Sure a bunch of them leave, but she still convinces them to join in the first place.


You named 9 players. 3 of them transferred - one after two seasons, one turned professional after one year, and the third left in the middle of her first season.

This year's recruiting class has three players, all of whom having rankings by national recruiting services over 100.

I was trying to "damn by faint praise", a way to imply that someone is not very capable by mentioning how average someone is in multiple areas. Read my entire post; I obviously think very little of her abilities. Coach P should have been gone several years ago. Even her recruiting (her major strength at Duke) has dropped off significantly in recent years (I agree with you).

I think the Duke players are leaving because they realize that the situation at Duke is not what they were sold in the recruiting process. That she was continuously able to recruit top notch talent despite Duke's on-court performance is actually a testament to her recruiting prowess. But I guess an argument could be made that recruiting people that do not stay is not successful recruiting. And the allure of Duke (the academic institution) is a very nice card to play.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 4:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Durantula wrote:
I know she has the reputation of a great recruiter but from what I hear she is not a very active recruiter, does not recruit much, her assistants carry a huge load. So when you are not winning as much as you used to then it becomes hard to recruit well. So Duke's decline in recruiting is not that surprising.


100 percent true.

In general, McCallie prefers to have two of her assistant coaches handle recruiting on a full-time basis.

The one exception was Elizabeth Williams, as McCallie was very active in her recruitment (in part because of her status as a high profile recruit).


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
Durantula wrote:
I know she has the reputation of a great recruiter but from what I hear she is not a very active recruiter, does not recruit much, her assistants carry a huge load. So when you are not winning as much as you used to then it becomes hard to recruit well. So Duke's decline in recruiting is not that surprising.


100 percent true.

In general, McCallie prefers to have two of her assistant coaches handle recruiting on a full-time basis.

The one exception was Elizabeth Williams, as McCallie was very active in her recruitment (in part because of her status as a high profile recruit).


Which makes it highly significant that EWilliams is the player who became the most publicly vocal about her issues with JPM. She wanted recruits to know the truth about what they would be signing up for. And her speaking out has been extremely effective in deterring top recruits who are also academically oriented from signing at Duke.

I've also heard mention of Azura' Stevens as being an example of McCallie 1) identifying an unheralded recruit and 2) developing her into a top player. Both of these claims are absurd. Azura' lived locally and was injured during a key recruiting and rating period. She also grew significantly between junior year of high school and freshman season at Duke. When she arrived at Duke, she was healthy, taller and with wing skills she developed when she was wing height. When her talent, skill and height blew out everyone's eyeballs, she made the move to UConn so she could develop from elite talent to super elite (high earning) talent, something she knew she wouldn't get at Duke.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 1:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duke is ranked #20 in the Associated Press poll and #18 in the USA Today coaches poll. Top 25 ranking is very familiar territory for a McCallie coached team.


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 2:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If McGraw, Walz, Moore, or Semrau were coaching Duke with the talent they've had the last few years, they would have been a Final Four team pretty much every year. You might even be able to add Meier to that list.

Also, as someone who is familiar with Kevin White as an AD, I agree that McCallie isn't likely to be going anywhere. Sorry AIM


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 3:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
That she was continuously able to recruit top notch talent despite Duke's on-court performance is actually a testament to her recruiting prowess.


Or Duke's reputation as a Basketball school.


Shades



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 4:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
If McGraw, Walz, Moore, or Semrau were coaching Duke with the talent they've had the last few years, they would have been a Final Four team pretty much every year. You might even be able to add Meier to that list.

Also, as someone who is familiar with Kevin White as an AD, I agree that McCallie isn't likely to be going anywhere. Sorry AIM


Injured talent? They were down 3 this year and still beat FSU. Shows they have a lot of heart.

Last year they were the healthiest they have been for years. They did well, even beating eventual national championship South Carolina. Their injury luck ran out during the NCAA tournament when they lost their PG Lambert.



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Durantula



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 7:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
If McGraw, Walz, Moore, or Semrau were coaching Duke with the talent they've had the last few years, they would have been a Final Four team pretty much every year. You might even be able to add Meier to that list.

Also, as someone who is familiar with Kevin White as an AD, I agree that McCallie isn't likely to be going anywhere. Sorry AIM


I don't believe this to be true. You can't live off HS rankings, Duke is not as good as you think. Greenwell multiple injuries, not the same player as before. Lambert out for the year. Belton medical issues ended her career. Gorecki now has serious hip issues. Boykin out for the year. Brown is very good but her supporting cast is not that good. Suggs is not an impact player, neither is Shubert or the two bigs who transferred there.

Moore, Semrau and Meier have never been to the final 4 but they would have made it with Duke the past couple of years. They recruit good players too so why haven't they made it before?


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PostPosted: 03/08/18 4:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wait, Stevens was supposed to be an unheralded recruit? What the? What parallel universe was that in?



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So the topic is to defend JPM?

Okay, she annually fields a team that is better than about 340 of the 350 D1 coaches. She's a top three-percenter. If Duke fans greedily want better than this, good luck.

She keeps herself in very good shape for her age.

She's good with numbers.

She has good intentions.

Here she is alone at the 2014 Hoophall Classic in Springfield, Mass. -- not a pleasant place to be in January -- just to show her presence to Sierra Calhoun, who had already committed to Duke.

CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In April 2007, Joanne P. McCallie took over a truly elite Duke program. Under Gail Goestenkors, Duke had made 4 Final Fours and 7 Elite Eights in the previous 10 seasons.

Coach P - The Good
-- Coach P's record at Duke is 273–71 (.794) (her first ten seasons; not counting this year), with a record of 121–33 (.786) in the ACC. Those are tremendous marks. Any time a coach wins 80 percent of her games, it is a good thing.

-- From 2010-2013, Duke had an overall record of 122-19 (.865) and an ACC record of 56-6 (.903), with four ACC regular season titles, three ACC Tournament titles, and four Elite Eight berths.

-- Coach P has made four Elite Eight appearances in ten seasons (this is her eleventh year). Her teams have made the Sweet Sixteen six times.

Coach P - The Not-So-Good
-- The record of Coach P in the 10 previous seasons at Duke (not including this current season) is not as good as her predecessor's last 10 seasons, in terms of W/L record against elite competition, number of ACC regular season and tournament titles, Final Four/Elite Eight appearances, and the overall national presence.

-- Coach P is 0-8 against UConn and 0-11 against Notre Dame (again, not counting this year).

-- From 2014-2017, Duke had an overall record of 99-36 (.733) and an ACC record of 44-20 (.6875), with zero ACC titles (and two years not finishing in the top three in the ACC).

-- In the last four years, the team made one Sweet 16, lost twice in the Second Round (both games at home), and missed the NCAA Tournament altogether, for the first time in two decades.

Coach P - The Big Questions
-- Duke is losing a lot when this senior class graduates and does not have highly touted recruits replacing those players. There is some talent left (PG - Lambert; PG/SG - Boykin; G/W - Gorecki; F - Odom; P - Williams), but there will be very little depth (in terms of talent and experience) behind them next year. And Lambert, Boykin, and Gorecki are all coming off major injuries. What does this mean for next year?

-- Is the trend of 2013-2017 the likely state of the program? Or is the record of 2010-2013 a realistic possibility for which Duke can return?


tfan



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 03/08/18 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.


Confused

Do mean Stanford that was in last year's Final Four? And 7 of the last 10 Final Foiurs?


Coyotes



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.


Confused

Do mean Stanford that was in last year's Final Four? And 7 of the last 10 Final Foiurs?


If the argument is that Stanford hasn't had an iron grip on the Pac-12 anymore, let's just celebrate the fact that the Pac-12 has gotten oh-so-much better since the days of Stanford crown after Stanford crown. It makes it kind of fun! Although, we can stick a fork in Oregon winning things next year. I'd much rather see someone else win--but given how much everyone loses outside of the Sun Devils....it's tough to envision. Hurry up and graduate, Hebard.


tfan



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 12:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.


Confused

Do mean Stanford that was in last year's Final Four? And 7 of the last 10 Final Fours?


D'oh!!

I guess I am looking only at the Pac-12 season. From 1989 to 2014 Stanford was regular season champion or co-champion for all but 3 years (88%). And the last year in that period that they weren't one or the other was 2000. But now, 4 years in a row, they have not been either. They have done better in recent Pac-12 tournaments versus the regular season, but have gone from winning 10 of the first 12 (83%), and making the championship game the two years they didn't win, to winning 2 of the last 5 (40%) and missing the championship game twice.They may be staying the same, but other Pac-12 teams are getting up to their level.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
In April 2007, Joanne P. McCallie took over a truly elite Duke program. Under Gail Goestenkors, Duke had made 4 Final Fours and 7 Elite Eights in the previous 10 seasons.

Coach P - The Good
-- Coach P's record at Duke is 273–71 (.794) (her first ten seasons; not counting this year), with a record of 121–33 (.786) in the ACC. Those are tremendous marks. Any time a coach wins 80 percent of her games, it is a good thing.

-- From 2010-2013, Duke had an overall record of 122-19 (.865) and an ACC record of 56-6 (.903), with four ACC regular season titles, three ACC Tournament titles, and four Elite Eight berths.

-- Coach P has made four Elite Eight appearances in ten seasons (this is her eleventh year). Her teams have made the Sweet Sixteen six times.

Coach P - The Not-So-Good
-- The record of Coach P in the 10 previous seasons at Duke (not including this current season) is not as good as her predecessor's last 10 seasons, in terms of W/L record against elite competition, number of ACC regular season and tournament titles, Final Four/Elite Eight appearances, and the overall national presence.

-- Coach P is 0-8 against UConn and 0-11 against Notre Dame (again, not counting this year).

-- From 2014-2017, Duke had an overall record of 99-36 (.733) and an ACC record of 44-20 (.6875), with zero ACC titles (and two years not finishing in the top three in the ACC).

-- In the last four years, the team made one Sweet 16, lost twice in the Second Round (both games at home), and missed the NCAA Tournament altogether, for the first time in two decades.

Coach P - The Big Questions
-- Duke is losing a lot when this senior class graduates and does not have highly touted recruits replacing those players. There is some talent left (PG - Lambert; PG/SG - Boykin; G/W - Gorecki; F - Odom; P - Williams), but there will be very little depth (in terms of talent and experience) behind them next year. And Lambert, Boykin, and Gorecki are all coming off major injuries. What does this mean for next year?

-- Is the trend of 2013-2017 the likely state of the program? Or is the record of 2010-2013 a realistic possibility for which Duke can return?


Some additional research and information:

Notre Dame has been in the ACC for five full seasons.
Since joining the ACC, Muffet McGraw's ACC record is 77-3 with five regular season titles and four tournament championships.

Louisville has been in the ACC for four full seasons.
Since joining the ACC, Jeff Walz's ACC record is 54-10, with one regular season title and one tournament championship.

Since Muffet McGraw's teams joined the ACC, Joanne P. McCallie's ACC record is 55-25 (it was 56-6 in the four years before Notre Dame joined the ACC).

Since both Muffet McGraw and Jeff Walz have been in the ACC, Joanne P. McCallie's ACC record is 43-21.


RavenDog



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 1:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One might also look at what JPM did as a coach and educator for Azura Stevens.

Azura wasted two years of eligibility to learn nothing at Duke. Going to UConn, she was still like a freshman.

With a good coach and education/training she's remarkably better already and still has a ways to go.

Some coaches like JPM and Warlick who perennially have a stable full of McDonald All-Americans and top players simply produce warm milk.


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 4:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
One might also look at what JPM did as a coach and educator for Azura Stevens.

Azura wasted two years of eligibility to learn nothing at Duke. Going to UConn, she was still like a freshman.

With a good coach and education/training she's remarkably better already and still has a ways to go.

Some coaches like JPM and Warlick who perennially have a stable full of McDonald All-Americans and top players simply produce warm milk.


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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 9:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
One might also look at what JPM did as a coach and educator for Azura Stevens.

Azura wasted two years of eligibility to learn nothing at Duke. Going to UConn, she was still like a freshman.

With a good coach and education/training she's remarkably better already and still has a ways to go.

Some coaches like JPM and Warlick who perennially have a stable full of McDonald All-Americans and top players simply produce warm milk.


Stevens lead the ACC in rebounds at 9.6 per game and was second in points at 18.9 per game. Hard to see how that performance is "wasting her eligibility". Now she comes off the bench and scores less and rebounds less. Her per minute numbers are up around 15%, but she is in a crummier league (#7 conference RPI versus #1 conference RPI) on a massively dominant team and is fresher from playing around ten fewer minutes a game. The numbers don't appear to show her developing at all. She was the best player in the #1 conference per scoring and rebounds, and now she plays 21.3 minutes a game off the bench in the #7 conference. What is it you have seen that has you so excited about her development?


Davis4632



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PostPosted: 03/09/18 10:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Wait, Stevens was supposed to be an unheralded recruit? What the? What parallel universe was that in?


I wouldn't said he was unheralded either. She was ranked #25 by Hoopgurlz, #41 by Prospects Nation, and #51 by Blue Star.


Stevens issues at UConn has mostly been of the defensive end because she's adjusting from playing zone to man to man. Everybody knew she was a 6'6 finesse player that loves to take threes.


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 1:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
One might also look at what JPM did as a coach and educator for Azura Stevens.

Azura wasted two years of eligibility to learn nothing at Duke. Going to UConn, she was still like a freshman.

With a good coach and education/training she's remarkably better already and still has a ways to go.

Some coaches like JPM and Warlick who perennially have a stable full of McDonald All-Americans and top players simply produce warm milk.


Stevens lead the ACC in rebounds at 9.6 per game and was second in points at 18.9 per game. Hard to see how that performance is "wasting her eligibility". Now she comes off the bench and scores less and rebounds less. Her per minute numbers are up around 15%, but she is in a crummier league (#7 conference RPI versus #1 conference RPI) on a massively dominant team and is fresher from playing around ten fewer minutes a game. The numbers don't appear to show her developing at all. She was the best player in the #1 conference per scoring and rebounds, and now she plays 21.3 minutes a game off the bench in the #7 conference. What is it you have seen that has you so excited about her development?


LOL. Nice try. Even the dimmest of WNBA scouts knows she'll be a way better player in the WNBA now.



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CBiebel



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 3:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.


1. Muffet McGraw might disagree with this. ND isn't exactly easy on the academic requirements either.
2. While UConn might not technically have the academic requirements of either Duke or Stanford, it isn't like Auriemma is relying on players who are academically questionable. I can't think of many (if any) UConn players who would not be accepted to either school. In fact, you could argue that the UConn system kind of requires smart players.
3. Since 2007-08 only 5 teams have beaten UConn: MSU (once), SJU (once), Baylor (twice), ND (7 times), and, oh yeah, Stanford, TWICE.
4. Stanford has also knocked off ND in each of the last two NCAA Tournaments. Grrr!
5. Stanford has made the Final Four in 7 of the last 10 NCAA Tournaments.

The last 3 facts above suggest that the "Stanford has declined" is a bit of an exaggeration (in fact, except for their 2 NCs in the 1990s, you could argue that Stanford has done better recently. They have 7 Final Fours since the 2008 Tournament while they had 6 Final Fours prior to the 2008 NCAA Tournament). They've only missed 3 Elite Eights since 2004.

Trust me, as a ND alumnus I'm well aware of the "We can't win due to academics!" BS argument. I don't buy it for ND Football, and I don't buy it for Duke Women's Basketball.


tfan



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 6:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.



2. While UConn might not technically have the academic requirements of either Duke or Stanford, it isn't like Auriemma is relying on players who are academically questionable. I can't think of many (if any) UConn players who would not be accepted to either school. In fact, you could argue that the UConn system kind of requires smart players.


The only athletes that don't get into Stanford or Duke on athletic scholarships are the ones who were "academically questionable" in high school? That is a much different standard than is applied to the non-athlete students. If true, it would mean that Stanford and Duke don't face that big hurdle getting enough jocks to come there.

One thing I forgot about Stanford is that it is supposed to be both hard to get into, and hard to flunk out of. They are said to try very hard to keep you passing your classes. What I was thinking about with regard to jocks not choosing schools with high academic reputations was that they wouldn't want to have a harder curriculum to deal with. But maybe that isn't even true, particularly for the athletes.

But as I said in another post, Stanford hasn't won the Pac-12 regular season in 4 straight years which is what I was thinking about when I said they have declined. But, there are alternative reasons for that happening besides them not being able to recruit top jocks.


dtsnms



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 9:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is hard to flunk out of any school that takes the academics seriously. As Geno said they set you up to succeed; you have timed study halls, tutors, etc etc to keep you on the right path


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PostPosted: 03/10/18 9:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis4632 wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Wait, Stevens was supposed to be an unheralded recruit? What the? What parallel universe was that in?


I wouldn't said he was unheralded either. She was ranked #25 by Hoopgurlz, #41 by Prospects Nation, and #51 by Blue Star.


Stevens issues at UConn has mostly been of the defensive end because she's adjusting from playing zone to man to man. Everybody knew she was a 6'6 finesse player that loves to take threes.



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 9:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
One might also look at what JPM did as a coach and educator for Azura Stevens.

Azura wasted two years of eligibility to learn nothing at Duke. Going to UConn, she was still like a freshman.

With a good coach and education/training she's remarkably better already and still has a ways to go.

Some coaches like JPM and Warlick who perennially have a stable full of McDonald All-Americans and top players simply produce warm milk.


Stevens lead the ACC in rebounds at 9.6 per game and was second in points at 18.9 per game. Hard to see how that performance is "wasting her eligibility". Now she comes off the bench and scores less and rebounds less. Her per minute numbers are up around 15%, but she is in a crummier league (#7 conference RPI versus #1 conference RPI) on a massively dominant team and is fresher from playing around ten fewer minutes a game. The numbers don't appear to show her developing at all. She was the best player in the #1 conference per scoring and rebounds, and now she plays 21.3 minutes a game off the bench in the #7 conference. What is it you have seen that has you so excited about her development?


If you haven't seen or understood the significant advancements she's made at both ends of the court, I'm certainly not the person to try to enlighten you. Watch all of the UConn games from beginning of the season, the Geno show, the postgame shows and interviews - it's quite easy and clear to see.




Last edited by RavenDog on 03/10/18 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
RavenDog



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PostPosted: 03/10/18 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
CBiebel wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stanford has declined as well. We may have entered an era where you cannot field as good a team with top students (assuming that you have to be one to get into these two schools) than what you used to be able to do.



2. While UConn might not technically have the academic requirements of either Duke or Stanford, it isn't like Auriemma is relying on players who are academically questionable. I can't think of many (if any) UConn players who would not be accepted to either school. In fact, you could argue that the UConn system kind of requires smart players.


The only athletes that don't get into Stanford or Duke on athletic scholarships are the ones who were "academically questionable" in high school? That is a much different standard than is applied to the non-athlete students. If true, it would mean that Stanford and Duke don't face that big hurdle getting enough jocks to come there.

One thing I forgot about Stanford is that it is supposed to be both hard to get into, and hard to flunk out of. They are said to try very hard to keep you passing your classes. What I was thinking about with regard to jocks not choosing schools with high academic reputations was that they wouldn't want to have a harder curriculum to deal with. But maybe that isn't even true, particularly for the athletes.

But as I said in another post, Stanford hasn't won the Pac-12 regular season in 4 straight years which is what I was thinking about when I said they have declined. But, there are alternative reasons for that happening besides them not being able to recruit top jocks.


It's not always about the school's higher reputations and curriculums but what the athlete/student majors in. It is acknowledged that some athlete/students major in more intensive science, engineering, medicine etc. programs and do/did quite well in them, but the majority of the scholar-athletes pursue other majors.

Obviously, there are some majors/courses you really have to not try or screw up badly to not get at least a B or C grade in. I'm not going to list them all but if you've gone to any college/university you should have knowledge of them.

It's not that the majority of the athletes are not intelligent or unable to pass the more difficult programs, it's just their prerogative choices for educational and athletic advancement must coincide with their focused/hoped-for needs/wants and, as such, their chosen educational paths have greenery but with less thorns on them.


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