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Swoopes vs Moore
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Sheryl Swoopes or Maya Moore?
Sheryl Swoopes
56%
 56%  [ 28 ]
Maya Moore
44%
 44%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 50

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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
Shocked You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses.


Nope, more likely you don't know what 'overrated' means. And also, there's different degrees of overrated; you're reacting like me saying that she's overrated is semantically equivalent to me saying that she's no better than Laurie Koehn, or somebody.

The math is simple: if you think she's the GOAT ("Royal" you, not saying that you, @RavenDog, do specifically), and I think she isn't, then that means I think that you have overrated her. Based on what appears to be the consensus on this board, it would seem as though many WNBA fans consider Maya Moore to either be the GOAT women's basketball player, or in the Top 3, all-time. I do not have Moore in my Top 3 all-time, therefore I think she is overrated. Hell, I could have her at #4, and that would still make Top 3 overrated.


Bingooooo Laughing


No, it's Basketball...

You two have a nice day.


Shades



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Swoopes being on the 2011 Tulsa Shock didn’t change their fortunes.
They went 3-31, the worst team in WNBA history.



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SpaceJunkie



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Swoopes being on the 2011 Tulsa Shock didn’t change their fortunes.
They went 3-31, the worst team in WNBA history.


Not everybody can be great past 40 though.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 6:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When a player clearly past their expiration date - to borrow a term from Katie Smith - is still considered valuable by a team, then to me that says something positive about them.
But hey, it's easer to take shots.
Swoopes scored 3 times more points in her final season than LJ did, so that proves LJ was a pretty crappy player too I guess.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SpaceJunkie wrote:
Shades wrote:
Swoopes being on the 2011 Tulsa Shock didn’t change their fortunes.
They went 3-31, the worst team in WNBA history.


Not everybody can be great past 40 though.


+1



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Shades



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 7:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SpaceJunkie wrote:
Shades wrote:
Swoopes being on the 2011 Tulsa Shock didn’t change their fortunes.

They went 3-31, the worst team in WNBA history.


Not everybody can be great past 40 though.


Hmm... I guess she was 40 at the time. Maya probably has enough self awareness to realize she can no longer help a team and would tap out before then.

Swoopes and others felt she was still a viable player. It’s still an indelible part of her resume. We’ll see if Maya is ever part of a bad team. It hasn’t happened yet... ever. The 2014 Lynx had every excuse to be a terrible team, but she put them on her back.

To summarize:
1. Maya has self awareness.
2. Maya makes teammates better.
3. Maya is capable of putting the team on her back.
4. Maya has always won at every level solidifying points 2 & 3.
5. Maya will be the GOAT. She’s already close as it is.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
SpaceJunkie wrote:
Shades wrote:
Swoopes being on the 2011 Tulsa Shock didn’t change their fortunes.

They went 3-31, the worst team in WNBA history.


Not everybody can be great past 40 though.


Hmm... I guess she was 40 at the time. Maya probably has enough self awareness to realize she can no longer help a team and would tap out before then.

Swoopes and others felt she was still a viable player. It’s still an indelible part of her resume. We’ll see if Maya is ever part of a bad team. It hasn’t happened yet... ever. The 2014 Lynx had every excuse to be a terrible team, but she put them on her back.

To summarize:
1. Maya has self awareness.
2. Maya makes teammates better.
3. Maya is capable of putting the team on her back.
4. Maya has always won at every level solidifying points 2 & 3.
5. Maya will be the GOAT. She’s already close as it is.


Did you watch sheryl play in her prime and in the 90's ? Just asking a serious question ?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:

Did you watch sheryl play in her prime and in the 90's ? Just asking a serious question ?


That’s part of the problem for Swoopes advocates. I don’t remember a whole lot about Swoopes, other than that 2011 team and her getting hurt pretty badly in a game against the Lynx. How am I supposed to hold her in more reverence in comparison with somebody proving to be one of the world’s most perfect athletes? Am I supposed Google stats like SpaceJunkie and watch a few clips of Swoopes on YouTube to conclude she was a better player than Maya? It’s not going to happen.

But of course the person who started this topic knew that it would cause angst and hard feelings. Topics like this always do. He knew what he was doing.

Maya is overrated? Ridiculous.



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sigur3



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

But of course the person who started this topic knew that it would cause angst and hard feelings. Topics like this always do. He knew what he was doing.


Did this topic make you upset?


Queenie



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 8:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As other people have picked up on, the answer to this question isn't necessarily who the best player is, but who you can rely on to be a franchise cornerstone. And though I think Swoopes in her prime was a more well-rounded player than Moore, with Moore you get about 2000% less batshit crazy drama. So I'd rather build a franchise around Moore.



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hyperetic



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 10:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
justintyme wrote:


Maya is the epitome of a team player who gets along with literally everyone. And a leader with that personality type shapes a team in that image.


Just to get it out of the way, I voted for Moore. My question though is about being the team leader. Is Moore really the take charge leader of the Lynx? On the Dream there is no question it was Angel; on the Fever it was Catchings, the Liberty it's Tina, and on the Mystics/Sky it was Elana.* On the Lynx though, it isn't clear to me that Moore is that take charge leader, but I don't watch that many Lynx games so maybe I just don't know. Is that how Lynx fans see her? I sort of thought it was Whalen recently and before that Augustus.


*As an aside, I'm pretty sure not all the players on that list are the ideal "team players".


Some lead, like Jordan and Kobe, "I'm the leader. Lets go." Others lead by example and involving others, like say, Akeem Olajuwan and Steve Nash. Moore is more like the latter. Swoopes like the former.
pilight



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.


Maya: "I'll have you know I'm exciting where it counts in my private life, Buddy!!! I just don't need to paint the town red to prove I'm having fun like other folks do!"



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.


Post of the month Laughing Laughing My thoughts exactly , nothing wrong with that though !



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.

So in other words, Maya Moore is a leader in a Tim Duncan-ish way. Worked well for Tim, and seems to be working well for Maya.



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mavcarter



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wasn't even worth it. Razz Laughing




Last edited by mavcarter on 03/07/18 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 1:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
pilight wrote:
I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.

So in other words, Maya Moore is a leader in a Tim Duncan-ish way. Worked well for Tim, and seems to be working well for Maya.

That comparison is on-point. Even down to being drafted by a "stacked team" that never won anything before they arrived Very Happy


pilight



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 1:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
pilight wrote:
I'm not sure leadership is the best quality of Moore or Swoopes.

This is a fascinating comparison because they're such polar opposites in terms of personality. Swoopes' private life wasn't private at all. We all heard about her money problems and her sex life and her hard partying ways. She was the #1 wild child of her day. Maya, OTOH, comes across as one of the dullest people to ever grace a basketball court. There's scant evidence to suggest she ever does anything besides play ball and go to church. She's a 60-year-old in a 28-year-old body.

So in other words, Maya Moore is a leader in a Tim Duncan-ish way. Worked well for Tim, and seems to be working well for Maya.


That's not a comparison that leaps immediately to mind, probably because their styles of play are so different, but it works. I never saw Duncan as much of a leader either.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
Skyfan22



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 8:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
Shocked You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses.


Nope, more likely you don't know what 'overrated' means. And also, there's different degrees of overrated; you're reacting like me saying that she's overrated is semantically equivalent to me saying that she's no better than Laurie Koehn, or somebody.

The math is simple: if you think she's the GOAT ("Royal" you, not saying that you, @RavenDog, do specifically), and I think she isn't, then that means I think that you have overrated her. Based on what appears to be the consensus on this board, it would seem as though many WNBA fans consider Maya Moore to either be the GOAT women's basketball player, or in the Top 3, all-time. I do not have Moore in my Top 3 all-time, therefore I think she is overrated. Hell, I could have her at #4, and that would still make Top 3 overrated.

While semantically true, if someone you feel is a top 4 player is typically considered a top 3 player by most others you will only confuse people by arguing that player is "overrated". This is because that is not how the term is typically understood in these sorts of debates. When someone says a player is overrated usually it is by matter of degree (eg: good versus very good, very good versus one of the best ever". Or better yet, by matter of tier. If people have that player as a tier 1 player, and you have them as a tier 2, the it would be common to say you find them "overrated".

But when the difference in something so subjective by nature is only 1 or two spots arguing "overrated" doesn't make much sense, since that sort of difference would be well within the "margin of error", if you will.


I disagree. There is a difference when you’re talking topplayer in the world. Also, when talking top 3 in the world. It may even be pretty significant if you’re discussing top ten and a player is frequently placed 1-2 spots ahead of what someone else considers the number 8 in stead of number ten in the world. When a player is in the elitist of company and she is referred to as overrated when she is argued to be better than the 3 or 4 player it seems very fair to state one’s opinion as she is overrated.

You sort of elude to this in your commentabout margin of error. The margin of error becomes very small when discussing the very top.

Now, when discussing top 100 players and there is needling whether a plate a who is 48 vs. 49, then, yes then the distinction is watered down and the term overrated would seem inappropriate.


sigur3



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 8:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Shades wrote:
But of course the person who started this topic knew that it would cause angst and hard feelings. Topics like this always do. He knew what he was doing.


Laughing You're an idiot.


Come on mav, stop knowingly causing angst and hard feelings.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 8:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Skyfan22 wrote:
[
I disagree. There is a difference when you’re talking topplayer in the world. Also, when talking top 3 in the world. It may even be pretty significant if you’re discussing top ten and a player is frequently placed 1-2 spots ahead of what someone else considers the number 8 in stead of number ten in the world. When a player is in the elitist of company and she is referred to as overrated when she is argued to be better than the 3 or 4 player it seems very fair to state one’s opinion as she is overrated.

You sort of elude to this in your commentabout margin of error. The margin of error becomes very small when discussing the very top.

Now, when discussing top 100 players and there is needling whether a plate a who is 48 vs. 49, then, yes then the distinction is watered down and the term overrated would seem inappropriate.

Well people can define these things however they want, so the approach you describe is valid. However, you will have to allow for the fact that most people will not understand what you are talking about if you call someone "overrated" and you simply mean #4 rather than #3. Most people are going to think you are saying that she belongs substantially lower on the list, and you will likely have to spend more time explaining what you meant.

If a player is held by general consensus to be a top 3 player, and you think there is one player in the history of the league that should be above her that typically isn't placed there, calling her "overrated" is going to confuse a lot of people about what you are saying. People aren't going to read that as you think she and the player below her should be flipped, they are going to think you are saying she is significantly lower on your list. If you just mean she is #4, why not just say "not top 3" or explain who you rank higher?



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mavcarter



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 11:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sigur3 wrote:
mavcarter wrote:
Shades wrote:
But of course the person who started this topic knew that it would cause angst and hard feelings. Topics like this always do. He knew what he was doing.


Laughing You're an idiot.


Come on mav, stop knowingly causing angst and hard feelings.


Mr. Green


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:

I disagree. There is a difference when you’re talking topplayer in the world. Also, when talking top 3 in the world. It may even be pretty significant if you’re discussing top ten and a player is frequently placed 1-2 spots ahead of what someone else considers the number 8 in stead of number ten in the world. When a player is in the elitist of company and she is referred to as overrated when she is argued to be better than the 3 or 4 player it seems very fair to state one’s opinion as she is overrated.

You sort of elude to this in your commentabout margin of error. The margin of error becomes very small when discussing the very top.

Now, when discussing top 100 players and there is needling whether a plate a who is 48 vs. 49, then, yes then the distinction is watered down and the term overrated would seem inappropriate.

Well people can define these things however they want, so the approach you describe is valid. However, you will have to allow for the fact that most people will not understand what you are talking about if you call someone "overrated" and you simply mean #4 rather than #3. Most people are going to think you are saying that she belongs substantially lower on the list, and you will likely have to spend more time explaining what you meant.

If a player is held by general consensus to be a top 3 player, and you think there is one player in the history of the league that should be above her that typically isn't placed there, calling her "overrated" is going to confuse a lot of people about what you are saying. People aren't going to read that as you think she and the player below her should be flipped, they are going to think you are saying she is significantly lower on your list. If you just mean she is #4, why not just say "not top 3" or explain who you rank higher?


FWIW, I never said that I had Moore at #4**. I said that I could consider Moore to be overrated if the general consensus had her as Top 3, and I had her at #4. And @Skyfan22 has it right. Sure, I'll stipulate that it becomes a pedantic splitting of hairs when you're using 'overrated' to delineate between the 100th-best player and the 101st-best player, but I would argue that it's a distinction that still matters when you're talking about the GOAT versus Top 3, or Top 3 versus Top 5, or Top 5 versus Top 10.

** For the record, I do not have Maya Moore at #4, either. My Top 4, all-time (in no particular order), are Swoopes, Catchings, Jackson and Taurasi.



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:

Did you watch sheryl play in her prime and in the 90's ? Just asking a serious question ?


That’s part of the problem for Swoopes advocates. I don’t remember a whole lot about Swoopes, other than that 2011 team and her getting hurt pretty badly in a game against the Lynx. How am I supposed to hold her in more reverence in comparison with somebody proving to be one of the world’s most perfect athletes? Am I supposed Google stats like SpaceJunkie and watch a few clips of Swoopes on YouTube to conclude she was a better player than Maya? It’s not going to happen.


*coughrecencybiascough*



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PostPosted: 03/07/18 6:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
[
I disagree. There is a difference when you’re talking topplayer in the world. Also, when talking top 3 in the world. It may even be pretty significant if you’re discussing top ten and a player is frequently placed 1-2 spots ahead of what someone else considers the number 8 in stead of number ten in the world. When a player is in the elitist of company and she is referred to as overrated when she is argued to be better than the 3 or 4 player it seems very fair to state one’s opinion as she is overrated.

You sort of elude to this in your commentabout margin of error. The margin of error becomes very small when discussing the very top.

Now, when discussing top 100 players and there is needling whether a plate a who is 48 vs. 49, then, yes then the distinction is watered down and the term overrated would seem inappropriate.

Well people can define these things however they want, so the approach you describe is valid. However, you will have to allow for the fact that most people will not understand what you are talking about if you call someone "overrated" and you simply mean #4 rather than #3. Most people are going to think you are saying that she belongs substantially lower on the list, and you will likely have to spend more time explaining what you meant.

If a player is held by general consensus to be a top 3 player, and you think there is one player in the history of the league that should be above her that typically isn't placed there, calling her "overrated" is going to confuse a lot of people about what you are saying. People aren't going to read that as you think she and the player below her should be flipped, they are going to think you are saying she is significantly lower on your list that is 2nd. If you just mean she is #4, why not just say "not top 3" or explain who you rank higher?


I was giving an example of how the definition changes as you get to the top. Could easily be applied to a group I believe is top 5 and another group that is the 2nd 5. I suppose you would have me say she belongs in the second 5 instead of the top 5. Whole thing seems ridiculous. More than 1 here seem to have agreed on an alternative description, so it seems that we can communicate using the term overrated without it conferring an insult on precious Maya.

Maybe you should loosen your concrete adherence to black and white when it comes to semantics.


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