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calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 02/20/18 12:00 pm    ::: What is Racist? Reply Reply with quote

In the last few days there have been two separate threads, one on Game Discussion and one on General Discussion, that devolved into discussions about racism. Neither started out that way or were intended to go there. And in an interesting twist, people I respect took different views on those issues.

Since I would prefer that those boards stay more basketball related and leave politics to this thread, I pose the question here, "What is Racist?"

The first post surrounded the term "thug." I had always used the term synonymously with "goon" as a physical enforcer, generally of lesser intelligence, and often working on behalf of others. It is clearly a derogatory term, but historically it hasn't had racial connotations. More recently however, terms such as "thuganomics" have made their way into the vernacular, and its usage by the President and others on the Right has been used with racial connotations. As a result some people now take offense to referring to an overly aggressive, chippy, bullying type player who happens to be African-American as a "thug." Is that Racist?

The second post was more direct. It asked for the All-Ameican White team. Most people who commented considered this particularly Racist. To me it was merely a question of looking at a subset of all players and determining who were the best of them. I see it as a perfectly reasonable question, racist only in the sense of looking only at a segment of the whole determined by race, but not in any way derogatory of any group. It would be the same as a question about the best Hispanic players or the best players from Colorado.

So where do people draw the line? Is something Racist because some people are offended? At what point do people have to bow to societal convention around changing definitions, mores and beliefs? Is there any discussion that can be had where racial differences can be discussed or racial divisions made that isn't automatically offensive? Does the person that raises an issue color the way in which you interpret a comment?


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 02/20/18 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pfzQZwcJFY



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Howee



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Location: Oklahoma (in my heart), whilst on my way to Oregon!


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PostPosted: 02/22/18 1:32 am    ::: Re: What is Racist? Reply Reply with quote

Interesting points. "Racism" is something that's been kicked around here often, tho not so recently.
calbearman76 wrote:
Is something Racist because some people are offended? At what point do people have to bow to societal convention around changing definitions, mores and beliefs?

Depends on your definition of "racist". I'd offer the idea that something (an idea/topic) may actually be 'racist' and not necessarily offensive: we all ARE racist, in the purest sense: we distinguish individuals by racial/ethnic differences, i.e., we can tell people apart via their appearance (which can be most obviously race, but also size, gender, IQ, etc.) Is it "racist" to conclude that most Koreans have black hair, while most Norwegians do not? I don't find that idea offensive---but some might choose to do that.

When the concept morphs into, "Most Korean people are idiots cuz they're for nuclear warfare" (I actually heard that recently), then we're entering into an area where 'racism' is a tool to support ignorance.

If it goes a few steps further, and we decide that all Koreans must be rounded up here and put into concentration camps so as not to enable Kim Jong Un's mission, then....? Racism becomes detrimental/offensive as a tool for oppression of (most often) a minority segment.

calbearman76 wrote:
Is there any discussion that can be had where racial differences can be discussed or racial divisions made that isn't automatically offensive?

Yep. Koreans have darker hair than Norwegians. Just be wary of what direction that takes you. Cool



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/22/18 2:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think often essential language and terms for ideas remain within the comfortable usage of only the better educated among us and the rest of employable society is dancing around a minefield of words and terms they don't fully understand the meanings or connotations of and trying to apply those all to ideas that they have but maybe think they aren't supposed to have and therefore shouldn't be using to guide their lives. And that’s the sliver that cares.

It's kind of a lot different the higher you are up on the scale of education and affluence and privilege. First, you're geographically removed from the dangers of sketchier areas of cities or regions of the country. When you think about this stuff and opine upon any of the related subjects it's usually from a place of relative comfort and safety.

But it’s different when your whole life is spent in a shitty part of this country with a mix of races and ethnicities who are all, like you, destined to spend their entire lives in the same shitty environment. There's misery and desperation all around you. Plenty of crime, danger, a raging opioid crisis. And you don't have the background in a college classroom to take thoughts and segregate what's proper and acceptable from those that are just absolute no-nos.

And, of course, of no worry or consequence to the educated children of privilege, you need every bit of your practical and shared experiences with all the different types of people who you must exist with in your shitty dangerous world in order to stay safe and keep your loved ones as safe as possible.

So words like stereotypes, racism, bigotry. They have so much importance in the national conversation, but deep down in the rapidly deepening dregs of American society, people are fighting with each other for scraps. This group might be known for presenting themselves one way, this other group for employing these tactics in order to survive, etc. Don't get caught there. Watch out if you see this. And on and on.

Sort of secondary thought. You are never ever going to 'teach' ignorant people to be enlightened people. You can reach smart kids and lift them out of their realities. But we're not really doing that so just shut up on that point. There's just too many people out there who are deficient in the face of the mental subtlety and complexity required to understand the nuances of big words and concepts and ideas and matching that up with the abstract needs and behaviors that dominate their lives and the lives of everyone in their environment.

Look at Donald Trump. Is he learning to be a president? I said a while back that it was like we elected my sister-in-law Micky president. Guess what? One year in, Micky is still Micky.

These racism discussions. They are fucking pointless. If you love people, love people. I love people. Probably most here are the same type. I ain't perfect. I grew up in a melting pot of a town and I can tell you all about blacks, Italians, Serbs. But I can really tell you about some white people. But everyone is different. There are stereotypes. There are archetypes. There are types.

Moving the discussion a million miles left. We just rewatched the Warren Beatty movie, Shampoo. Hadn't seen it in decades and I'm going to say I don't remember ever seeing it since I moved to LA 30 years ago. So I always wanted to see it again because I know the place now and very well. Wow. So here is what I think. I think that Shampoo might be one of the onliest films that I know of that actually sets itself down and shows both the actual landscape here and the actual characters who inhabit this place. I was shocked at how faithful this film was to Beverly Hills, the culture, the identities, the archetypes, and the quite accurate stereotypes. Amazing film.

I've been sort of beating this drum for decades that the film and television industry does not actually show the rest of the world what LA looks like or what it lives like. Who lives here and how they live. I'm definitely not arguing that there aren't films made that are set in LA and that they don't purport to show life in LA. The problem is that they just don't and it would be obvious to a hedgehog that they're not only not trying, they're purposely not showing the rest of the world this place as it actually is. Whatever on that. These people are smarter than any of us.

But Shampoo does show this place as it is. And I guess the reason I'm bringing this up is that it's an example on the other end of the spectrum of portraying stereotypical behaviors, allowable maybe because of the wealth and ethnicity of the characters, creating a movie with true behaviors and characters, and none of that would have been possible if the filmmakers hadn't set out specifically to create these characters according to type, stereotype, archetype.

(And please, college professors, please don't try to school me on the differences in meaning between those words. I know what they mean. Forget the actual words or terms and come down into the murky reality where real life happens.)


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 10955
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus. If u were in my safe space, you'd have to be f'd up


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PostPosted: 02/22/18 3:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

time for another music break... Smile


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YoySwSx5H0



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 02/22/18 7:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Excellent points, jammer. Howee-ver.... ( Razz )

jammerbirdi wrote:
Sort of secondary thought. You are never ever going to 'teach' ignorant people to be enlightened people.

I must disagree with this principle, merely cuz of the "n" word--"never". Yes, it *feels* like it ain't never gonna happen. But we have both lived long enough to know that Change re: Enlightenment happens.

jammerbirdi wrote:
Forget the actual words or terms and come down into the murky reality where real life happens.

Here's a quick, 'reverse reality' story that applies: a dear and close friend (intelligent, educated professional) shared with me a story she'd recently heard about some republican politician declaring that gays were undoubtedly a separate species. She shared this in the interest of commiserating on how terribly reversible it might seem that modern gay rights are trending. Right?

I reminded her that she might need to stop listening to/focusing on such absurd stories. In MY reality--living as a gay man in a rural, conservative community--I could describe for her THREE different incidents of recent days that proved to me the trend is decidedly IMPROVING. THREE different young men on 3 different occasions, of not-so-educated or limited backgrounds, who made it abundantly clear that I was very okay, in their estimation, and my male spouse was not remotely a concern to them, when the topic arose in the course of our interaction.

In that same vein, we all know "real" neighborhoods or groups where racial divides simply don't exist, where color and ethnicity is not a problem: enlightenment DOES continue to grow. I must believe that, with the continued progress in open national dialogue, we will continue to grow away from the shameful pasts. Not real fast--not fast enough, maybe--but growth is growth.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/22/18 8:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Excellent points, jammer. Howee-ver.... ( Razz )

jammerbirdi wrote:
Sort of secondary thought. You are never ever going to 'teach' ignorant people to be enlightened people.

I must disagree with this principle, merely cuz of the "n" word--"never". Yes, it *feels* like it ain't never gonna happen. But we have both lived long enough to know that Change re: Enlightenment happens.

jammerbirdi wrote:
Forget the actual words or terms and come down into the murky reality where real life happens.

Here's a quick, 'reverse reality' story that applies: a dear and close friend (intelligent, educated professional) shared with me a story she'd recently heard about some republican politician declaring that gays were undoubtedly a separate species. She shared this in the interest of commiserating on how terribly reversible it might seem that modern gay rights are trending. Right?

I reminded her that she might need to stop listening to/focusing on such absurd stories. In MY reality--living as a gay man in a rural, conservative community--I could describe for her THREE different incidents of recent days that proved to me the trend is decidedly IMPROVING. THREE different young men on 3 different occasions, of not-so-educated or limited backgrounds, who made it abundantly clear that I was very okay, in their estimation, and my male spouse was not remotely a concern to them, when the topic arose in the course of our interaction.

In that same vein, we all know "real" neighborhoods or groups where racial divides simply don't exist, where color and ethnicity is not a problem: enlightenment DOES continue to grow. I must believe that, with the continued progress in open national dialogue, we will continue to grow away from the shameful pasts. Not real fast--not fast enough, maybe--but growth is growth.


Well, first, thank you. Yes we all see that strides are being made in terms of tolerance (not a fan of that word, speaking of words) and acceptance. Wink Just as a negative thought though, we just had murder out here. A young undersized gay Ivy League student home, here in the LA area, for the holiday break. Lured by a former highschool class mate out to a park for... God knows what either of their intentions were. The little gay guy may have had sex on his mind. The other dude was much larger. Like six-two. Looked like a total psycho with lots of warning signs. But sort of dramatically handsome in a way that is very typical here in Cali. People who knew him tweeted how scary he had become.

This guy either lured the little gay guy out for the specific purpose of murdering him. Because he was gay, because he was a brilliant student and off to a great college. OR... the gay kid might have made a pass and this psycho's response was to murder the kid. And that's here in California on the very Left Coast.

Okay back from that very negative aside to your much better example of human progress.

But I didn't mean to imply that "not-so-educated or limited backgrounds" necessarily means people are going to be unintelligent. But even intelligent people whose lives and environments impress upon them different attitudes about the differences between themselves and others are going to be schooled to come to conclusions about others who are not like them. And those conclusions might be the kind the more genteel enlightened part of our society might view as backwards or ignorant or unacceptable or even racist.

But what I was talking about is this significant portion of the population who will never be reached by any semblance of this conversation we're having now, or the national conversation about race or feminism or any of the pillars of identity politics because they are just not interested in or capable of having any of this penetrating their consciousness. And I'm saying those people will always be a driving factor in where we're going as a society.

So they are taking almost a binary good/bad perspective on everything and everyone in their world with no nuance and certainly with no ability to access or understand the arguments or the words and concepts. We don't really deny the mental shortcomings of so many among us, do we? But we sure do ignore them and the limitations they put on our aspirations for a better world.

Sorry, if this is a non-PC line of thinking. But maybe I just know a lot more dumb asses than most people here.

Here's something different. I'm going to do some virtue signaling of my own here. But I'm kind of thinking no one else here will see any of this as being virtuous. You've probably said, as even I have I'm sure at some stages of my life, that you hate ignorance, etc. Used to be almost as common and acceptable to hear someone say they 'hate' stupid people as it is today to hear them say they like animals. There's definitely very much a still gleefully energetic tendency for people on the left to ridicule and deride less educated, less intelligent, low information types with as much fuck them scorn as the cruelest bully would deploy on a quite undersized kid at school.

First, those people who do that suck. They ARE actually just another facet of the human need in some to bully and be cruel. It feels good to a lot of people and having what they see as a righteous reason just gives them a license to operate as a person who utilizes cruelty and bullying words and behavior. It's all for the good, of course. Rolling Eyes

So let me signal my virtue by saying I don't look down in that way at people who are less than me. Thing that tugs at my heart the most are people who are born with a mental deficiency. And it goes from there. But having grown up just in an environment of such a baseline ignorance of the world, I see ignorant Americans I think much differently than the perspectives I see expressed toward them by other enlightened people. I see class and education disparities from what I still consider to be an inside perspective. Nobody in my family went to college. As I've said ad nauseum, my mom had a first grade education and my dad went as far as he sixth grade. Pretty much none of the people I grew up who were my friends went to college, unless they went later in life that I'm not aware of.

So, you know, hmm hah, I very personally get how people can be born into a world that is unenlightened and how hard it is for some of those people to break out. I can't tell you guys what my Facebook feed sometimes looks like. I mean, Russia was targeting my people. And my people did not let Russia down.


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 10955
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus. If u were in my safe space, you'd have to be f'd up


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PostPosted: 02/24/18 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Howee wrote:
Excellent points, jammer. Howee-ver.... ( Razz )

jammerbirdi wrote:
Sort of secondary thought. You are never ever going to 'teach' ignorant people to be enlightened people.

I must disagree with this principle, merely cuz of the "n" word--"never". Yes, it *feels* like it ain't never gonna happen. But we have both lived long enough to know that Change re: Enlightenment happens.

jammerbirdi wrote:
Forget the actual words or terms and come down into the murky reality where real life happens.

Here's a quick, 'reverse reality' story that applies: a dear and close friend (intelligent, educated professional) shared with me a story she'd recently heard about some republican politician declaring that gays were undoubtedly a separate species. She shared this in the interest of commiserating on how terribly reversible it might seem that modern gay rights are trending. Right?

I reminded her that she might need to stop listening to/focusing on such absurd stories. In MY reality--living as a gay man in a rural, conservative community--I could describe for her THREE different incidents of recent days that proved to me the trend is decidedly IMPROVING. THREE different young men on 3 different occasions, of not-so-educated or limited backgrounds, who made it abundantly clear that I was very okay, in their estimation, and my male spouse was not remotely a concern to them, when the topic arose in the course of our interaction.

In that same vein, we all know "real" neighborhoods or groups where racial divides simply don't exist, where color and ethnicity is not a problem: enlightenment DOES continue to grow. I must believe that, with the continued progress in open national dialogue, we will continue to grow away from the shameful pasts. Not real fast--not fast enough, maybe--but growth is growth.


Well, first, thank you. Yes we all see that strides are being made in terms of tolerance (not a fan of that word, speaking of words) and acceptance. Wink Just as a negative thought though, we just had murder out here. A young undersized gay Ivy League student home, here in the LA area, for the holiday break. Lured by a former highschool class mate out to a park for... God knows what either of their intentions were. The little gay guy may have had sex on his mind. The other dude was much larger. Like six-two. Looked like a total psycho with lots of warning signs. But sort of dramatically handsome in a way that is very typical here in Cali. People who knew him tweeted how scary he had become.

This guy either lured the little gay guy out for the specific purpose of murdering him. Because he was gay, because he was a brilliant student and off to a great college. OR... the gay kid might have made a pass and this psycho's response was to murder the kid. And that's here in California on the very Left Coast.

Okay back from that very negative aside to your much better example of human progress.

But I didn't mean to imply that "not-so-educated or limited backgrounds" necessarily means people are going to be unintelligent. But even intelligent people whose lives and environments impress upon them different attitudes about the differences between themselves and others are going to be schooled to come to conclusions about others who are not like them. And those conclusions might be the kind the more genteel enlightened part of our society might view as backwards or ignorant or unacceptable or even racist.

But what I was talking about is this significant portion of the population who will never be reached by any semblance of this conversation we're having now, or the national conversation about race or feminism or any of the pillars of identity politics because they are just not interested in or capable of having any of this penetrating their consciousness. And I'm saying those people will always be a driving factor in where we're going as a society.

So they are taking almost a binary good/bad perspective on everything and everyone in their world with no nuance and certainly with no ability to access or understand the arguments or the words and concepts. We don't really deny the mental shortcomings of so many among us, do we? But we sure do ignore them and the limitations they put on our aspirations for a better world.

Sorry, if this is a non-PC line of thinking. But maybe I just know a lot more dumb asses than most people here.

Here's something different. I'm going to do some virtue signaling of my own here. But I'm kind of thinking no one else here will see any of this as being virtuous. You've probably said, as even I have I'm sure at some stages of my life, that you hate ignorance, etc. Used to be almost as common and acceptable to hear someone say they 'hate' stupid people as it is today to hear them say they like animals. There's definitely very much a still gleefully energetic tendency for people on the left to ridicule and deride less educated, less intelligent, low information types with as much fuck them scorn as the cruelest bully would deploy on a quite undersized kid at school.

First, those people who do that suck. They ARE actually just another facet of the human need in some to bully and be cruel. [b][size=18]It feels good to a lot of people and having what they see as a righteous reason just gives them a license to operate as a person who utilizes cruelty and bullying words and behavior. It's all for the good, of course. Rolling Eyes [[/size]/b]

So let me signal my virtue by saying I don't look down in that way at people who are less than me. Thing that tugs at my heart the most are people who are born with a mental deficiency. And it goes from there. But having grown up just in an environment of such a baseline ignorance of the world, I see ignorant Americans I think much differently than the perspectives I see expressed toward them by other enlightened people. I see class and education disparities from what I still consider to be an inside perspective. Nobody in my family went to college. As I've said ad nauseum, my mom had a first grade education and my dad went as far as he sixth grade. Pretty much none of the people I grew up who were my friends went to college, unless they went later in life that I'm not aware of.

So, you know, hmm hah, I very personally get how people can be born into a world that is unenlightened and how hard it is for some of those people to break out. I can't tell you guys what my Facebook feed sometimes looks like. I mean, Russia was targeting my people. And my people did not let Russia down.



I live in a town that voted 63-35% for Trump. I know a lot of dumb fuckers.

I don't have a college degree. I worked in factories. I do manual labor. I think I meet your criteria!

SILLY, STUPID WHITE PEOPLE




Dear Lord, do we need another rendition of the "be nice to the MidWest displaced factory working white guy" corporate media bs storyline? Rolling Eyes

As disappointing as it is to realize those losers voted for the guy who personifies, more than anyone else, the power structure that has fucked them over, at least we now understand that russian meddling, voter suppression, voter district rigging and the outdated Electoral College are the reasons Trump is in the Oval office today. At least it's not entirely that white guy (and his woman)'s fault.



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