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Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:12 pm    ::: WBHOF nominees Reply Reply with quote

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22047372/former-tennessee-star-chamique-holdsclaw-uconn-associate-head-coach-chris-dailey-highlight-women-basketball-hall-fame-finalists

Elena Baranova
Ceal Barry
Rose Marie Battaglia
Chris Dailey
Chamique Holdsclaw
Mickie DeMoss
Vickie Orr
Katie Smith
Valerie Still
Tina Thompson

Thoughts?



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes, we also have a thread in the W forum. I suspect we'll have two different ballots between the two fora.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ceal Barry? Is she being nominated because of her coaching career? I guess I don't see how she qualifies as a Hall of Famer. Good career, but is her resume really worthy of that honor?


calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 01/11/18 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just can't get on board with an assistant coach as a hall of famer. Sorry.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 10:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I just can't get on board with an assistant coach as a hall of famer. Sorry.


As a long-time assistant, I have to disagree. Someone like Chris Dailey is more than just an integral part of UConn's success -- she's absolutely vital.



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ridor



Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 01/12/18 4:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I disagree, clayk. WBHOF is about the sport itself, not UConn. Other than UConn's success, Chris Dailey absolutely has contributed nothing to the sport itself. If Chris went on to coach another school and build the program into something special then by all means, induct her. But being the assistant/associate for Geno, she's merely riding off from his success despite the claims by Geno and others that she contributed ...

R-


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ridor wrote:
I disagree, clayk. WBHOF is about the sport itself, not UConn. Other than UConn's success, Chris Dailey absolutely has contributed nothing to the sport itself. If Chris went on to coach another school and build the program into something special then by all means, induct her. But being the assistant/associate for Geno, she's merely riding off from his success despite the claims by Geno and others that she contributed ...

R-


That's quite a statement. Have you been inside their offices over the last 30 years or so? I know I saw her on the road a lot, especially during the first 10-15 years.

For people to think that it's all the head coach when it comes to building a program, that is completely wrong.


ridor



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 7:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She was never a leader, never led a program on her OWN to begin with. Don't tell me that there is not anyone like her. Holly Warlick, Mickie DeMoss, Kim Mulkey (at La Tech) and Amy Tucker are all excellent associate HCs but do you see them being inducted as
AHC? No. Let's be serious with this business and stop doing this silly thing - it looks like WBHOF is running OUT of someone to induct each year.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/13/18 11:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Being a quality assistant is not easy, nor is being part of a winning program year in and year out.

You are free to disagree, but I doubt you've ever been an assistant coach, or a head coach, and depending on the situation, an assistant can have a major role in a program's long-term success.

There are roles to fill in basketball, on and off the court, and to deny that Chris Dailey has filled her role as well as anyone in the game flies in the face of UConn's success with her on the bench.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus. If u were in my safe space, you'd have to be f'd up


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PostPosted: 01/13/18 1:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ceal Barry???

What did I miss?



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ridor



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PostPosted: 01/13/18 11:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I used to coach for middle school girls basketball team. Not exactly a college level but I know what it takes to be good at it.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 01/13/18 11:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ridor wrote:
She was never a leader, never led a program on her OWN to begin with. Don't tell me that there is not anyone like her. Holly Warlick, Mickie DeMoss, Kim Mulkey (at La Tech) and Amy Tucker are all excellent associate HCs but do you see them being inducted as
AHC? No. Let's be serious with this business and stop doing this silly thing - it looks like WBHOF is running OUT of someone to induct each year.


This has been a very interesting discussion, both here and on the WNBA board. My initial position was absolutely no; that these assistant coaches were just that. They were a part of tremendous organizations, but it is hard to quantify their individual contribution in any way apart from the overall success of the team. This is in no way to denigrate their significance, but rather to say that it doesn't stand out in the way of the accomplishments of Hall of Famers.

I suppose I would have less problem if the WBHOF better categorized its inductees. This is not a question of Chris Dailey vs. Elena Baranova. Chris Dailey is nominated as a contributor on the basis that she "must have significantly impacted the game of women's basketball." That is a very high bar, and absent anything other than her play at Rutgers and her tenure at Connecticut, I can't say that she has met that bar. Indeed in my mind I don't believe that any assistant coach who coached primarily for only one head coach could ever meet that standard. I could envision a situation where an assistant coach created an innovative offense or defense that revolutionized the game could be considered under the contributor category, but I would be interested to have somebody make an argument as to how Chris Dailey (or Mickey DeMoss or Amy Tucker) significantly impacted the game of women's basketball. They were important cogs in the success of their teams, but their contribution to that success does not, at least to my mind, represent a significant impact to the game as a whole.


Queenie



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PostPosted: 01/13/18 11:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ridor wrote:
She was never a leader, never led a program on her OWN to begin with. Don't tell me that there is not anyone like her. Holly Warlick, Mickie DeMoss, Kim Mulkey (at La Tech) and Amy Tucker are all excellent associate HCs but do you see them being inducted as
AHC? No. Let's be serious with this business and stop doing this silly thing - it looks like WBHOF is running OUT of someone to induct each year.


DeMoss is part of the same group of nominees as Dailey. (To be technical, Warlick's already in as a player, if I recall correctly, and Mulkey will probably get in at some point thanks to her playing career and head coaching success- but I get what you're getting at with those two, that they wouldn't be HOF-worthy just based on their assistant tenure.)

I'm not the world's biggest fan of inducting assistants. That being said, Dailey and DeMoss are two of the exceptions. To be honest, I'd have thought they were the only two, but you reminded me of Amy Tucker, who proved herself indispensable to Stanford while VanDerveer was with the national team, so she should probably be in that group as well.

I also agree the classes are too big. There was a lot of catching up to do, but I think we've done as much as we can with the dearth of reliable records for such long stretches.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 01/14/18 12:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Being a quality assistant is not easy, nor is being part of a winning program year in and year out.

You are free to disagree, but I doubt you've ever been an assistant coach, or a head coach, and depending on the situation, an assistant can have a major role in a program's long-term success.

There are roles to fill in basketball, on and off the court, and to deny that Chris Dailey has filled her role as well as anyone in the game flies in the face of UConn's success with her on the bench.


I agree. But that is not the standard she is being judged against.


tfan



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PostPosted: 01/14/18 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How many times over the years when people were gushing about Geno Auriemma, did they add "and Chris Dailey deserves a lot of credit as well"? I don't recall the two being intertwined in the praise. If she had left, say in 1995 after the perfect season, would all those future WNBA players have chosen another school? It could be that she did cause some of them to choose UConn over some other school, but we can never know that and I think that the head coach and past record is what they look at rather than their interaction with the person who makes the phone calls. But I was never a recruit, so I don't know how much the interaction with the "recruiting coordinator" comes into play. I know they give them credit for recruits on their roster bio page. Recruiting is very important, although I don't know that it is an HOF type activity which may be thinking about practice/game coaching as to what it is honoring.

Instead of just head coach, recruits may consider the "coaching staff". If Dailey was the only assistant for a long time back in the day, that would give her more cred. But looking at the oldest roster on their site, 2001-2002, they had 3 assistants (and I think they have always had 3 since that time) and besides Dailey, it was Cardoza in her 8th year and Elliott in her 5th. Which would mean Dailey was never the sole assistant coach during a UConn WBB championship year.

Have any other sports put a career assistant coach in the Hall of Fame?

I was thinking that putting in assistant coaches is like giving Oscars for "best assistant director". It turns out they did give that award for 5 years, from 1933 to 1937. But oddly, they gave out multiple assistant director awards each year, minimum being 2 and maximum being 6 (average 3.8 ).


Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 01/14/18 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I just can't get on board with an assistant coach as a hall of famer. Sorry.


As a long-time assistant, I have to disagree. Someone like Chris Dailey is more than just an integral part of UConn's success -- she's absolutely vital.

Assistant coaches are very important, but it is difficult to figure out their individual contributions to the program's success. Are there data that we can see/evaluate? Are Chris Dailey and Mickie DeMoss getting consideration primarily because of their longevity on the coaching staffs of hugely successful programs? I would imagine it would be very difficult to discern the value of any particular assistant coach unless you were behind the scenes at each campus.


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