RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

I, Tonya and the WNBA similarities

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » WNBA
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SDHoops



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 766



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 12:32 am    ::: I, Tonya and the WNBA similarities Reply Reply with quote

I recently watched the movie, 'I, Tonya,' and I highly recommend it. One thing that stood out to me is that judges weren't keen on giving high scores to skaters who didn't fit the image of the All American girl. This wasn't just an issue with Tonya Harding as Surya Bonaly of France was also a talented jumper who preferred to wear skates that resembled boots and skate to fast paced music while doing daring jumps rather than the usual routines. Both were regularly criticized by media and commentators..but experts nowadays talk about how good they would be in today's scoring system.

Although we've made a lot of progress, I still see a lot of this in the WNBA and the media. From feminising the women hardcore at the WNBA draft to being very selective on celebrating weddings by the W, it seems like the women who "play by the rules", so to speak, are received much more warmly by the media. The Kelsey Plum overhype by the media in 2017 was a prime example. In hindsight, Mitchell is already a forgotten figure seemingly and people go as far to screenshot her falling to the ground, anything to discredit her playing skills. Do i need to bring up the MVP voting the past few years, especially 2016? We can turn a blind eye to it, but we tend to market the married moms who ooze femininity rather than the women who prefer to wear vests and ties rather than heels and skirts. I'm just saying!!


Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 15767
Location: Queens


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's not as bad as it used to be. (Remember "This Is Who I Am"?)

I see some of what you're getting at, don't get me wrong. And I'm not saying it couldn't be better. But I'm also saying that ten years ago Griner would probably have been getting marketed less than Hill, let alone Diggins and EDD, and five years ago there's no chance in hell we would have heard about the Taurasi-Taylor wedding from any source other than Mercury fans.

I could be flip and say that ESPN is used to overhyping Huskies (though I suspect much of the Plum coverage was overcompensation for the reprehensible way that Final Four team was spoken of by ESPN's crews). I could be flip and say "fuck Ohio State anyway" (though I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN was dialing back on Mitchell because they don't have as many of the games because of the BTN/FS deal). But I respect your point too much for those to be my only responses.

That being said... unfortunately, marketers have to play it safe. "But not TOO black." "But not TOO gay." And there are people who are fans of women's basketball, or who could be fans if they're enticed the right way, who hold some disgusting views; unfortunately, as far as marketers are concerned, their money's as good as, if not better than, ours. We've had people on this board question Griner's sex. I've dealt with fans in real life questioning less notable players' sex and gender. I've heard racially-charged bullshit from fans. But asshats have money, and while marketing "traditional" players doesn't drive away people like you and me, marketing "untraditional" players drives away asshats. We might not want the asshats around, but we need their money.

(Also, I do not think the 2016 MVP voting bolsters your point, save how briefly both Nneka and Tina were shown in the first half of the 2017 "Watch Me Work" campaign.)

This has been a lot of words to say: you're right, there are not-good overtones, but as not-good as it is it's been worse.



_________________
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.
bballjunkie



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 617



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I understand the argument but I don’t understand the comparison. Figure skating as with gymnastics has scores for the dance side of the sport. If a power jumper for example doesn’t demonstrate the ability in those areas that is a flaw in their skill level. Most gymnasts and figure skaters are iinherently powerful but have to balance all areas of the sports. The men also now have more scores for that side. Dance is a beautiful thing so I would not want to see it used as a pawn.

Re the W, I think they just missed big time in this but this is just my opinion. If you read a lot of the hype it was coming from people who normally were accepted as the “knowing” I think some of them got duped and this happens quite often with recruits from high school on up.

Marketing is in the eye of the beholder. Sure I think there are discriminatory practices but not all. The athletes can chose who they work with just as the W can but as with most minor leagues, they also have to get what they can to survive. With the #metoo movement it will probably take longer to affect the smaller market areas but hopefully will eventually trickle through. There probably needs to be more speaking out about the discrimination in all areas and hopefully this will eventually bring change in all working environments. We are hopefully seeing the start of something better for the future.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2424
Location: New York City


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 2:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The issue well raised above by SD Hoops goes way beyond marketing. Yes, there has been progress. Significant progress. But there is still strong social pressure for women or girls involved in sports to appear "feminine" and not to be out as lesbians.

Imagine, for example, if we did a survey of all female basketball coaches in the U.S. High school, college, and WNBA. Head coaches and assistants. What percentage of these female coaches, if they felt assured of confidentiality, would say that they are lesbians? And what percentage of these female coaches are out to the world?

Obviously, we could do the same survey with female basketball players and with players and coaches of other women's sports. Many more women in sports are out than ever before. But many still feel--due to family pressures, societal pressures, or both--that they can't come out.

SD Hoops mentioned women in the sports world who wear heels and skirts. I was thinking about this in early 2017 when I attended a women's college basketball game in New York. The home team was doing pregame warmups and an assistant coach went out to supervise. She was wearing stiletto heels on the court. Yes, that was her individual choice as to how to dress for that game. But I believe these "individual choices" still are heavily influenced by social pressures that reflect longstanding sexist, homophobic norms and values.



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
bballjunkie



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 617



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 10:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is always surprising to me when someone brings up things like feminine, heels etc. as if lesbians cannot enjoy such things. My sister is gay. She and her partner both enjoy wearing heels and skirts. Don’t you think that it is problematic when we stereotype. Shouldn’t The real issues be how individuals are treated differently if they don’t have the same norms as those who feel the need to discriminate against them. I just wish stereotyping be avoided so we don’t put people in boxes. I would love to see Dealing with the real issues without attaching the labels. Labels just create a distraction.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2424
Location: New York City


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/01/18 11:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballjunkie wrote:
It is always surprising to me when someone brings up things like feminine, heels etc. as if lesbians cannot enjoy such things. My sister is gay. She and her partner both enjoy wearing heels and skirts. Don’t you think that it is problematic when we stereotype. Shouldn’t The real issues be how individuals are treated differently if they don’t have the same norms as those who feel the need to discriminate against them. I just wish stereotyping be avoided so we don’t put people in boxes. I would love to see Dealing with the real issues without attaching the labels. Labels just create a distraction.


You've put words in my mouth. I never said that lesbians can't enjoy heels, skirts, or anything else traditionally viewed as "feminine." Obviously there are many who do. But, in my view, there are serious pressures on all women and girls in sports to appear "feminine," whether they love that or not. And there are still serious pressures on women and girls in sports to stay in the closet. Do you deny any of that?



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 4:42 pm    ::: Re: I, Tonya and the WNBA similarities Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
I recently watched the movie, 'I, Tonya,' and I highly recommend it. One thing that stood out to me is that judges weren't keen on giving high scores to skaters who didn't fit the image of the All American girl. This wasn't just an issue with Tonya Harding as Surya Bonaly of France was also a talented jumper who preferred to wear skates that resembled boots and skate to fast paced music while doing daring jumps rather than the usual routines. Both were regularly criticized by media and commentators..but experts nowadays talk about how good they would be in today's scoring system.


Sorry, completely disagree about the current scoring system. No expert has ever said Bonaly and/or Harding would have been so good in today's scoring system.

Bonaly had amazing jumps (some triple-triples and even the back flip), which is why she had a very successful career as a professional skater. Harding had amazing jumps (including the triple axel) from the fall of 1990 until the end of 1991.

But in terms of today's IJS scoring system, Bonaly and Harding would have scored low in the PCS marks (skating skills, transitions, performance/execution, choreography/composition, and interpretation). Second, even using the TES (the technical score), many of Bonaly's jumps were underrotated, which would have dinged her considerably in the TES mark. Furthermore, Bonaly had a questionable triple lutz entrance; if she was given the "e" for the wrong edge (a "flutz," as Dick Button used to say), that would have lowered her TES marks even more.

It was not that Bonaly and Harding did not fit the mold based on physical looks. Sure, that was a part of it (for Harding, especially, in terms of costume and music; Bonaly had a lot of classical music and some great music selections). For both of them, the performance lacked. Both telegraphed their jumps from a mile away. There was no "program."


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 8614



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 5:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The premises of the movie has been called into question.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/brennan/2017/12/20/tonya-harding-movie-wants-your-sympathy-but-lets-not-forget-facts/971183001/


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 4431
Location: Underground


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I watched Harding and Bonaly a great deal. I never thought either looked unfeminine. The issue was that they were incomplete skaters -- some would say one-dimensional. They were hardly the first. Ten years earlier, the US had a skater named Elaine Zayak. She was cute and perky, but was similarly penalized for simply being a great jumper and not much else. Think of a basketball player who is a great shooter, but doesn't play defense, rebound or handle the ball well.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 8614



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Or is super fast in a track meet, great on D but can't shoot.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 8:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The premises of the movie has been called into question.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/brennan/2017/12/20/tonya-harding-movie-wants-your-sympathy-but-lets-not-forget-facts/971183001/


The premise of the movie was called into question who knows the facts or followed skating at the time. Only the OP has bought into the movie in some way.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 6814



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/02/18 9:15 pm    ::: Re: I, Tonya and the WNBA similarities Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
but we tend to market the married moms who ooze femininity rather than the women who prefer to wear vests and ties rather than heels and skirts. I'm just saying!!


If "we tend to market the married moms who ooze femininity" I don't think that leaves the WNBA anyone to market, unless Candace Parker "oozes femininity". But I think she sounds like an athlete, not an actress.


SDHoops



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 766



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 5:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not an expert on figure skating. I did watch a lot of YouTube footage and read a lot of comments..there are a lot of people who are on both sides.

Bonaly, in my opinion, was worldly ahead of her time..first they said she couldn't do a backflip in competition because a skater would land on two feet. However, she mastered the art and landed on one foot and they still said she couldn't do it in competition and now used safety. To me that's like telling Griner she can't block shots or dunk the basketball because it's too unfair. She would win European titles like crazy, but then get to world competitions and lose to skaters she had beaten, take Oksana and the 1994 Olympics for instance. Oh yeah, Bonaly was also the only black female that was in the upper level back then. I don't like how the announcers would single her out and make negative comments about her from the get go and call her a rebel when in fact, she wowed the shit out of me.

Same with Harding, her triple axel was awesome at her peak in 1991. She regularly would get low marks in her presentation (second) marks. It's just crazy how these skaters could ace the technical program (required elements) and in fact out skate their competition, but because they weren't "graceful" enough, were penalized.

Also, this post has nothing to do with Harding's fall from figure skating or the Kerrigan incident. It has more to do with how they were treated within their sport throughout their careers. Tonya made one good point in the movie that's absolutely true. She pointed out that when Nancy got second at the 1994 Olympics, she looked like she had eaten poo (I think that was the phrase), yet you didn't see that all over the news. You saw mini documentaries and news stories when Bonaly was overcome with emotion after a Worlds competition. Yes, she acted like a child but she was a child at the time. Nancy was a grown woman at the time and even complained about it in an interview in the past decade. She's just snoody and she messed up just as much the other skaters. She was in fact, a little boring.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 9301



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Another interesting aspect is that this most feminine of sports has declined precipitously in popularity in the last decade. The Olympic trials (I think that's what they are) are in San Jose right now, and the upper half is curtained off, and the lower bowl isn't full (where the Sharks play).

So though a case can be made that there's still a preference for "feminine" women (whatever that might mean), there's also evidence that frilly costumes and lots of makeup don't resonate as much as they once did.



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
bballjunkie



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 617



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="Bob Lamm"][quote="bballjunkie"]It is always surprising to me when someone brings up things like feminine, heels etc. as if lesbians cannot enjoy such things. My sister is gay. She and her partner both enjoy wearing heels and skirts. Don’t you think that it is problematic when we stereotype. Shouldn’t The real issues be how individuals are treated differently if they don’t have the same norms as those who feel the need to discriminate against them. I just wish stereotyping be avoided so we don’t put people in boxes. I would love to see Dealing with the real issues without attaching the labels. Labels just create a distraction.[/quote]

You've put words in my mouth. I never said that lesbians can't enjoy heels, skirts, or anything else traditionally viewed as "feminine." Obviously there are many who do. But, in my view, there are serious pressures on all women and girls in sports to appear "feminine," whether they love that or not. And there are still serious pressures on women and girls in sports to stay in the closet. Do you deny any of that?[/quote]

Not trying to put words in your mouth and apologize if you thought I was.

Labels are something I dislike, it is as simple as that. I don’t think it helps anyone to use labels. I do think we are in the midst of change and don’t want to underestimate the youth of today who seem to want to address issues of discrimination more openly than has happened in a long time. There are so many areas of discrimination and if we could move forward by accepting everyone for just being themselves and not labeling or putting down people through stereotyping, I feel that would be a positive step.


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 4431
Location: Underground


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 2:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Another interesting aspect is that this most feminine of sports has declined precipitously in popularity in the last decade. The Olympic trials (I think that's what they are) are in San Jose right now, and the upper half is curtained off, and the lower bowl isn't full (where the Sharks play).

So though a case can be made that there's still a preference for "feminine" women (whatever that might mean), there's also evidence that frilly costumes and lots of makeup don't resonate as much as they once did.


That has more to do with the fact that American women are no longer competitive. No medals in the last two Olympics and none expected in the one coming up. One medal in 11 years at the World Championships. Meanwhile, gymnastics is probably more popular than ever in this country because the Americans are good.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2424
Location: New York City


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Another interesting aspect is that this most feminine of sports has declined precipitously in popularity in the last decade. The Olympic trials (I think that's what they are) are in San Jose right now, and the upper half is curtained off, and the lower bowl isn't full (where the Sharks play).

So though a case can be made that there's still a preference for "feminine" women (whatever that might mean), there's also evidence that frilly costumes and lots of makeup don't resonate as much as they once did.


That has more to do with the fact that American women are no longer competitive. No medals in the last two Olympics and none expected in the one coming up. One medal in 11 years at the World Championships. Meanwhile, gymnastics is probably more popular than ever in this country because the Americans are good.


Agreed. If a decade from now the U.S. has terrific figure skaters and lousy gymnasts, the current trends in popularity will be reversed. Core fans of each sport will go to see live events or watch telecasts no matter what. But lots of other fans are influenced by how good U.S. athletes are or aren't.



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 5:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
I'm not an expert on figure skating. I did watch a lot of YouTube footage and read a lot of comments..there are a lot of people who are on both sides.


Not quite accurate. People who are knowledgeable about the sport understand the crux of how Harding and Bonaly were marked and how they would fare in the IJS system. There may be people on both sides; there are not people who are experts on both sides.

SDHoops wrote:
Bonaly, in my opinion, was worldly ahead of her time..first they said she couldn't do a backflip in competition because a skater would land on two feet.


The backflip was illegal in amateur competition for all competitors, not just her. But it was perfectly legal in professional competitions and was performed by a number of male skaters - Scott Hamilton, Robin Cousins, and Brian Orser, to name a few

SDHoops wrote:
However, she mastered the art and landed on one foot and they still said she couldn't do it in competition and now used safety. To me that's like telling Griner she can't block shots or dunk the basketball because it's too unfair.


Again, stop making it sound like the rule was changed because of Bonaly. The rule prohibiting back flips from being performed in amateur competitions (not including exhibitions) was in place in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, etc.

This was not a Bonaly-specific rule. To say that it was unfair makes it sound as if it was a rule put into place for Surya - as opposed to the Zayak Rule.

Now, the Zayak Rule WAS put in place because of US skater Elaine Zayak, who won the 1982 World Championships with six triple jumps (four of them 3Ts, triple-toe jumps). At the time, a skater could attempt as many jumps of any type (edge, toe) as they wished; conceiveably, Zayak could have done six triple-toe jumps. The Zayak Rule was enacted, stating that only two types of triple jumps may be attempted twice in a program, and if a type is repeated, one of the attempts must be in combination or in a sequence. So if a skater does 7 triple jumps, no more than two can be of the same kind (Axel, Lutz, flip, loop, Salchow, toe loop) - and if two of the same kind are performed, one has to be in combination.

SDHoops wrote:
She would win European titles like crazy, but then get to world competitions and lose to skaters she had beaten, take Oksana and the 1994 Olympics for instance. Oh yeah, Bonaly was also the only black female that was in the upper level back then. I don't like how the announcers would single her out and make negative comments about her from the get go and call her a rebel when in fact, she wowed the shit out of me.


It is true that Bonaly was the only Black skater at that level during the 1992-1998 period (Debi Thomas retired from amateur competitions after 1988).

But with Bonaly it was much, much more involved than just race.

First, she was a jumping machine. She loved the jumps, and she could throw jumps together in an instant. Yet for some of the bigger jumps (e.g., her triple Lutz), her setup basically took the entire length of the ice. There was no performance, just a setup to the jump. Now, when she would miss a jump, she would try to throw a jump in there with very little (or even no) speed, such as a double Axel. And while it was amazing that she landed the jump, it was often clumsily done (body hunched over on the landing, the free leg in an odd position).

With her spins, she had great flexibility and hit very interesting and unique positions. But the center of the spin often traveled across the ice (a big no-no, as the spin is supposed to stay centered in one spot), and she could not transition from one leg to another while spinning without a huge interruption or a very awkward transition move (side note...many skaters today have this problem, unlike Michelle Kwan, who did it seamlessly).

But outside of the jumps and the spins, there was very little to her programs. She rarely picked music that worked for her. Her spirals were never held; she would hit the position and who just drop her leg or the position, instead of holding it.

These were bigger problems in the long program.

The best I ever saw Surya skate in the Olympics in which she completed (1992. 1994, and 1998) was the Short Program from the 1994 in Lillehammer:

https://youtu.be/Dd-Yv7yDQBk

The spins were a little slow, but better centered. And the spirals were not held. But she shortened the entry to the Lutz, and it looked much better. Moreover, she PERFORMED this program, rather than just skating to music. She really felt this music (I LOVED the music), and it showed in things like the footwork. While the footwork was not particularly difficult (not that many turns, not turning in both directions, lots of running across the ice), it was VERY well performed to the beat of the music. And you could see how much Surya loved performing this Short Program.

As for Europeans, she won in 1991 and 1992, when the world's best skaters were American (Yamaguchi, Harding, Kerrigan) or Japanese (Midori Ito).

Now she did beat Oksana Baiul at the 1993 and 1994 European Championships. But Bonaly famously fell in the LP at the 1994 Olympics (and let out a scream). She did well at the 1993 Worlds, finishing 2nd to Baiul (after Kerrigan imploded in the LP).

Bonlya won silver at the 1994 and 1995 World Championships. In 1995, Chen Lu was magnificent in winning. The only time I thought Bonaly was "robbed" was the 1994 Worlds, when the big names (Kerrigan, Baiul) sat out and she lost to Japan's Yuka Sato (coincidentally, the Worlds that year were held in Chiba, Japan).

And once Irina Slutskaya and Michelle Kwan arrived on the scene in the fall of 1995, Bonaly's results at Euros and the Worlds declined (she also had some injuries).

Another oddity about Surya...there was the story that she was an orphan and that she was found on an island. As it turns out, the entire story was a lie. This added to the mystery and fascination about her.

SDHoops wrote:
Same with Harding, her triple axel was awesome at her peak in 1991. She regularly would get low marks in her presentation (second) marks. It's just crazy how these skaters could ace the technical program (required elements) and in fact out skate their competition, but because they weren't "graceful" enough, were penalized.


Completely not true.

When Harding landed the Triple Axel, she generally won - 1991 Nationals and 1991 Skate America (she finished second at 1991 Worlds, but she made some mistakes).

But she never landed the Triple Axel outside of 1991. From 1992 until 1994, there were a lot of attempts, but they resulted in pops or falls. And she also had trouble with other jumps (notably the Lutz).

Harding did not have much to her performance, either. She did not have the transitions, the skating skills, the movement, etc., outside of her jumps.

In the 6.0 (pre-IJS) system, there were two marks - technical merit and artistic impression/presentation. Each counted for 50 percent of the mark.

To say Harding was penalized on the second mark when she rarely did anything to warrant a high second mark but attribute to her not being "graceful" is ridiculous. If you watched Midori Ito, you saw an athletic skater who landed the Triple Axel. She was never the best at artistry, but she chose pieces of music that helped her, she improved her spins and her moves in-between the jumps, etc., and she won the 1989 World title and won the silver at the 1992 Olympic Games (after falling on the Triple Axel in the both the short and long programs, she finally landed one in the second half of her long program). And her marks improved.

Harding is like a player who only plays offense in basketball and never/rarely plays defense who gets placed on the Second Team instead of the First Team in terms of accolades.

SDHoops wrote:
Also, this post has nothing to do with Harding's fall from figure skating or the Kerrigan incident. It has more to do with how they were treated within their sport throughout their careers. Tonya made one good point in the movie that's absolutely true. She pointed out that when Nancy got second at the 1994 Olympics, she looked like she had eaten poo (I think that was the phrase), yet you didn't see that all over the news. You saw mini documentaries and news stories when Bonaly was overcome with emotion after a Worlds competition. Yes, she acted like a child but she was a child at the time. Nancy was a grown woman at the time and even complained about it in an interview in the past decade. She's just snoody and she messed up just as much the other skaters. She was in fact, a little boring.


Again, completely NOT true.

Kerrigan had the hardest technical content of anyone in Lillehammer. She was the only skater to execute a clean triple-triple combination (and one of only a couple of skaters to even attempt it). She had a triple Lutz in the back end of her program. She had multiple jumps in combination. Baiul had issues with her Lutz, only had one combination, did fewer triples, and did not have the same presentation level. She had the best spiral. Baiul got better technical marks for less content that was not done nearly as well.

Also, at the time, there were TONS of stories about Kerrigan's comments and behavior backstage waiting for Baiul (questioning why Oksana needed to put on makeup if she was only going to cry again). These came out IMMEDIATELY.

As an aside, no offense, but relying on Tonya Harding's memory/perception for anything is dubious, at best.

You may have your opinions. But they are not facts. And the bases of your opinions can be disproved with facts, as I did above.




Last edited by CamrnCrz1974 on 01/05/18 6:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 7659



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 8:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I didn't watch I, Tonya but I am old enough to remember the whole thing. It became a giant sensation and yes absolutely everything was reported. Press followed them constantly and reported whenever they were in the practice hall. I don't know what the movie showed but I clearly remember Harding stopping in the middle of her program because she had a problem with her shoelace and crying to the judges to get a re-skate. In addition, there was controversy over her choice of outfit that year as it showed the "curve of her breast" due to its low cut. She was perceived as lacking grace and performance on the ice more than not looking the part and wilted under the pressure at the Olympics. Kerrigan, meanwhile, was completely torched over her reaction "why me?" when the attack occurred and if people didn't directly comment on how she looked pissed on the podium, it's because there was so much other things to talk about: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/people-kerrigan-tarnishes-her-silver-image-1426878.html People were not sympathetic towards either woman by the time the Olympics were over.

Remember, too, that there was still the perceived voting collusion between the Western and Eastern blocs. This always had an impact on the scoring when you had a Russian up against an American. You can see that split in the final numbers. The German judge was a long-time competitor for East Germany. Even though no one ever knows the truth, the assumption was always about bias back then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1994_Winter_Olympics#Women

I think your comments about "all-American looks" and the WNBA do have merit. I just think you've chosen the wrong thing to compare it with.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 5082
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/04/18 11:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I haven't seen the movie and don't quite follow the connection to the WNBA, but only eight women have ever performed a triple axel in competition. Midori Ito was the first in 1988 and Tonya Harding was the second in 1991. Here they all are:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/article/21609322/tonya-harding-seven-other-women-skaters-successfully-landed-triple-axel

Five of the eight are of Japanese extraction.
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/05/18 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I haven't seen the movie and don't quite follow the connection to the WNBA, but only eight women have ever performed a triple axel in competition. Midori Ito was the first in 1988 and Tonya Harding was the second in 1991. Here they all are:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/article/21609322/tonya-harding-seven-other-women-skaters-successfully-landed-triple-axel

Five of the eight are of Japanese extraction.


The list does not include 2006 World Champion Kimmie Meissner, who landed the 3A at nationals, but not in international competition (jump has to be landed in international competition to "count").

Rika Kihira landed a triple Axel-triple toe combination at the most recent Junior Grand Prix Final.


Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 2110



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/08/18 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with Cam. Don't think this is similar to basketball as figure skating has its fan base and seems to bring in cash from somewhere to pay for pros.

The W is in flux and we need all the help we can get and I don't think we should snub our noses at anything barring outside disgrace. I don't consider marketers using who they want to promote their products disgraceful.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/09/18 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
I agree with Cam. Don't think this is similar to basketball as figure skating has its fan base and seems to bring in cash from somewhere to pay for pros.

The W is in flux and we need all the help we can get and I don't think we should snub our noses at anything barring outside disgrace. I don't consider marketers using who they want to promote their products disgraceful.


One thing the WNBA and figure skating both have in common? Marketing to a fan base consisting of a high percentage of people who identify as LGBT, while only having a few athletes come out publicly. The number has increased in recent years for both sports, as society has grown/changed and it has become more publicly acceptable to do so.

And both sports have to deal with hompohobia from an average sports fan, who dismiss the athletic prowess and achievements based on perceived sexual orientation.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 8614



Back to top
PostPosted: 01/09/18 12:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seems to me figure skating is a lot cheaper to put on than a pro-basketball game. They don't need two entire teams of players, just a few stars, an arena, some judges and some ice. Don't need dozens of games each season either.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 01/09/18 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Seems to me figure skating is a lot cheaper to put on than a pro-basketball game. They don't need two entire teams of players, just a few stars, an arena, some judges and some ice. Don't need dozens of games each season either.


For every Grand Prix event, you need:

Junior Men's Singles
Junior Ladies' Singles
Junior Pairs
Junior Ice Dance

Senior Men's Singles
Senior Ladies Singles
Senior Pairs
Senior Ice Dance

Each discipline involves two programs - short program and long program.

This year's US Nationals had five levels - senior, junior, novice, intermediate, and juvenile. There are four disciplines in each level, two programs per discipline.

In other words, the events can be big productions. But there relatively of them, relatively speaking, on a big stage with a large stadium/venue - much fewer than the number of basketball games in a season.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17163
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 02/12/18 4:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I haven't seen the movie and don't quite follow the connection to the WNBA, but only eight women have ever performed a triple axel in competition. Midori Ito was the first in 1988 and Tonya Harding was the second in 1991. Here they all are:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/article/21609322/tonya-harding-seven-other-women-skaters-successfully-landed-triple-axel

Five of the eight are of Japanese extraction.


Mirai Nagasu just landed the triple Axel in the Olympics, becoming only the third woman (and first American) to do so (at the Olympics).

Rika Kihira, who is on the list, landed a triple Axel-triple toe combination at the most recent Junior Grand Prix Final, the first skater to do so.


Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » WNBA All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin