RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

The Last Jedi - Spoilers thread
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » Area 51
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/21/17 3:55 am    ::: The Last Jedi - Spoilers thread Reply Reply with quote

I'm interested to see what those who saw it think. This is supposed to be a spoilers thread. Read at your own risk.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
HistoryWomensBasketball



Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 1425
Location: CT


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/21/17 6:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought it started a bit slow. I knew nothing of what to expect, other than knowing in real life Carrie had passed.

I will certainly be at eposide 9 but was certainly saddened by what happened in the end.

I think Daisy cast as Rae is a winner. I feel she totally fits in the cast and could have been cast as Leia back in 77

Adam as Ren. Bad ass for sure, but he is now the nastiest in the series by his killing but to me still no where as bad as Vadar.

Bottom line. I liked it. Not near as much as Force Awakens.

my order list

1. Star Wars
2. Force Awakens
3. Empire
4 - most call me crazy - Rogue 1
5. Last Jedi
6. Return of Jedi

then the other 3



_________________
Author of: "Barnstorming America, Stories from the Pioneers of Women's Basketball"

www.barnstormingamerica.net
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/21/17 9:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Last Jedi is effectively a repudiation of the prequels and The Force Awakens. The prequels declared that the Old Republic was a time of peace and prosperity -- but what we saw onscreen (in addition to some unbelievably boring films and the lamest love story ever lensed) was a theocratic government (run by Jedi) that was so clumsy, inept and incompetent that an idiot like Jar Jar Binks could hand it over to a Sith Lord whom the Jedi never even noticed rising within their own regime.

Add that to the fact that despite the supposed peace of the Old Republic, it was a time in which this peaceful government raised its own clone army with one hand being ignorant of the other, where a peaceful world like Naboo could be invaded with no action from the Republic and where slave labor unfolded on Tatooine without a flicker of concern from the supposed Jedi peacekeepers. And yet, Obi-Wan Kenobi described this era as "before the dark times; before the Empire" except the Republic was at best less malicious and genocidal while not being able to actually prevent any coups that led to Death Stars blowing up planets.

And then we have The Force Awakens which, in reverting to the Star Wars (1977) playbook of gleeful adventure with rebels against the establishment, reversed the ending of Return of the Jedi by establishing that the Rebels ultimately didn't win the war. As a result, The Last Jedi presents Luke Skywalker declaring that the Jedi have been a complete and total failure across the board; they failed to stop the Sith; they failed to stop the Empire; they'll fail to stop the Order. By the end of The Last Jedi, the Rebels/Resistance are reduced to whoever can fit aboard the Millennium Falcon.

The Last Jedi is effectively declaring the Republic/Rebels/Resistance vs. the Sith/Empire/Order war to be a dead-end for Star Wars as a continuing franchise, with Luke observing that Star Wars' central conceit, the Force, is about the light and energy between all living things and the idea that the Jedi's absence would mean the absence of light is absurd and arrogant -- meaning that there have to be new ways to tell Star Wars stories that aren't just remaking the 1977 film (like The Force Awakens) or trying to lead into the 1977 film (like the prequels). There's quite a bit of this with Kylo Ren too, urging Rey to "let the past die, kill it if you have to."

And Yoda urges Luke to stop thinking in terms of who won or lost which war when, but instead look to need: who needs him and for what and what can he offer and give to those who are suffering?

And when Luke dies, the narrative onscreen indicates that Luke has cut himself off from the Force, but now he gives himself over to the Force which is why he looked reborn to youth in his projection. He is giving up his physical body to become one with the elemental nature of reality and Star Wars stories themselves, allowing himself and the Star Wars franchise to potentially be reborn into something new.

However, I concede that all this content about renewing the Star Wars formula and casting off the old tropes is presented in a movie that is entirely about presenting the STAR WARS formula of heists and space battles and lightsaber duels, so it could be somewhat muted and hypocritical and Episode IX will be from staunch traditionalist JJ Abrams who made the very sort of film The Last Jedi is trying to leave behind.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7085
Location: Northfield, MN


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/21/17 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This was, in my opinion, the best Star Wars movie of all time.

I would put it on par with Empire as storytelling goes, but give it even more credit since it had all the baggage of the franchise it had to overcome to be the transcendent film it was.

The way they broke tropes and flipped the script gave it a gritty realism that the franchise had been missing up to this point. It rejects the "hero's journey" trope that has become overused by this point and in doing so makes the story a breath of fresh air. The Force Awakens echoed A New Hope so closely that it built expectations that would have been boring had they come to fruition.

Take Rey's parentage. Because of the echoes to ANH how many of us assumed that because it was left a mystery it had to be a big deal? We were wondering if she was a long lost Skywalker or even a Solo. Was she related to Snoke? It had to be someone important! She was going to be the next "Chosen One" with some long lost familial destiny. Instead, this movie takes that idea and throws it back at us. "Stop assuming" it tells us, "destiny" is bullshit. Her parents? Nobodies. And it is perfect.

The other thing all good movies do is echo the world around them, they speak into the world in which they are written. Star Wars was written in a post-Vietnam world where the Cold War was still raging. The idea of personal destiny and optimism for the future afyer emerging from a dark time spoke to the people and was a common theme in movies and literature of the time.

But this movie speaks to a different era. Instead of repudiating Vietnam, it repudiates the MAGA world we are mired in. It tells us to take off the rosy glasses and stop fighting to return to a past that was not actually "great" for many people. The need is to always progress forward through times of tribulation, not try to go back or else the same mistakes that gave rise to the troubled world will just repeat themselves.

Yeah, The Last Jedi was awesome.



_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA


Last edited by justintyme on 12/21/17 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/21/17 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My favorite line is the one from Yoda. "Sacred Jedi Texts. Read them, have you? Page turners, they are not."



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/22/17 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rey and Ben Solo are brother and sister. Anyone wish to dispute me? I will offer my theory later.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/22/17 4:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
Rey and Ben Solo are brother and sister. Anyone wish to dispute me? I will offer my theory later.


No. Leia would have recognized her. Besides, there's no way Han and Leia would have abandoned their child.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 3:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Rey and Ben Solo are brother and sister. Anyone wish to dispute me? I will offer my theory later.


No. Leia would have recognized her. Besides, there's no way Han and Leia would have abandoned their child.


Hmmn... I was hoping for more of a debate. Oh, well. Still early. As for Leah and Han, who's to say how Rey got on Jakku. Perhaps it wasn't abandonment? Protection from their enemies? After all, how did the Force know that the Falcon needed to be on Jakku when Rey was old enough to pilot her?

Dig into Last Jedi deeper. Examine how the reality of OUR human culture has been put into Star Wars, The Last Jedi in particular. Coupled with Last Jedi's symbolism, especially in two key scenes, and then references back to previous films, the clues in LJ will lead to a feasible conclusion that Ray and Ben are brother and sister. And symbolism has played a major factor in these films.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 15411
Location: Holland


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If they want to Jedi to live on and not go extinct (and fight alongside the last rebels) then Rey having 2 non jedi parents would be best. Like with the little boy in the end



_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
Hawkeye



Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 567
Location: Houston, TX


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 8:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
Hmmn... I was hoping for more of a debate. Oh, well. Still early. As for Leah and Han, who's to say how Rey got on Jakku. Perhaps it wasn't abandonment? Protection from their enemies?


If it was protection, someone would have been keeping an eye on her. When Luke was placed on Tatooine, Obi-Wan was also there to make sure nothing happened to him.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 11:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hmmn... I was hoping for more of a debate. Oh, well. Still early. As for Leah and Han, who's to say how Rey got on Jakku. Perhaps it wasn't abandonment? Protection from their enemies?


If it was protection, someone would have been keeping an eye on her. When Luke was placed on Tatooine, Obi-Wan was also there to make sure nothing happened to him.


So who's the old man giving Poe the lost piece of the map?

"To me, she's royalty?"



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 11:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hmmn... I was hoping for more of a debate. Oh, well. Still early. As for Leah and Han, who's to say how Rey got on Jakku. Perhaps it wasn't abandonment? Protection from their enemies?


If it was protection, someone would have been keeping an eye on her. When Luke was placed on Tatooine, Obi-Wan was also there to make sure nothing happened to him.


So who's the old man giving Poe the lost piece of the map?

"To me, she's royalty?"


Of course he knew Leia. The opening crawl says he's an "old ally" who discovered the map on Jakku. There's no indication he knew Rey at all.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/23/17 11:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hmmn... I was hoping for more of a debate. Oh, well. Still early. As for Leah and Han, who's to say how Rey got on Jakku. Perhaps it wasn't abandonment? Protection from their enemies?


If it was protection, someone would have been keeping an eye on her. When Luke was placed on Tatooine, Obi-Wan was also there to make sure nothing happened to him.


So who's the old man giving Poe the lost piece of the map?

"To me, she's royalty?"


Of course he knew Leia. The opening crawl says he's an "old ally" who discovered the map on Jakku. There's no indication he knew Rey at all.


That is true. But you're still not digging into Last Jedi further. That's how theories are born.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Hawkeye



Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 567
Location: Houston, TX


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 8:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.


Still was BS. Being blown out into space would have killed her. It was cheezy and lame and too Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon nonsense.


Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 9:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.


Still was BS. Being blown out into space would have killed her. It was cheezy and lame and too Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon nonsense.


I respect your opinion. But this is the Force we are talking about, not the logic of physics or the reality of the laws of physics. Or even how we as film goers know and understand reality. The Force protected Leia until she regained consciousness. It's about having faith in the Force. Or in Darth Vader terms, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Hawkeye



Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 567
Location: Houston, TX


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 9:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.


Still was BS. Being blown out into space would have killed her. It was cheezy and lame and too Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon nonsense.


I respect your opinion. But this is the Force we are talking about, not the logic of physics or the reality of the laws of physics. Or even how we as film goers know and understand reality. The Force protected Leia until she regained consciousness. It's about having faith in the Force. Or in Darth Vader terms, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."


I still didn't much like it as nowhere in any of the movies has the force protected like that---heck, Obi Wan and Aniken (sp?) had to have breathing devices under water....can only suspend disbelief so far.


Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.


Still was BS. Being blown out into space would have killed her. It was cheezy and lame and too Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon nonsense.


I respect your opinion. But this is the Force we are talking about, not the logic of physics or the reality of the laws of physics. Or even how we as film goers know and understand reality. The Force protected Leia until she regained consciousness. It's about having faith in the Force. Or in Darth Vader terms, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."


I still didn't much like it as nowhere in any of the movies has the force protected like that---heck, Obi Wan and Aniken (sp?) had to have breathing devices under water....can only suspend disbelief so far.


There were a lot of fans that didn't. You are not alone. But it doesn't change the fact that Leia couldn't die before Luke. Again, this is only my opinion, but many fans still haven't understood the symbolism in the film. I think I have. - Again, my opinion.



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7085
Location: Northfield, MN


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/24/17 11:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
Having Leia survice in the vacuum of space was the only real Brown Flag moment for me....Even channeling the force, you get blown out into space...you're dead. Period. That was a bit cheezeball crap for me.

As for Rey and Ben being siblings....yeah, not at all.


Leia could not die first. In all of the Star Wars films, the sister has always followed her brother.


Still was BS. Being blown out into space would have killed her. It was cheezy and lame and too Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon nonsense.


I respect your opinion. But this is the Force we are talking about, not the logic of physics or the reality of the laws of physics. Or even how we as film goers know and understand reality. The Force protected Leia until she regained consciousness. It's about having faith in the Force. Or in Darth Vader terms, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."


I still didn't much like it as nowhere in any of the movies has the force protected like that---heck, Obi Wan and Aniken (sp?) had to have breathing devices under water....can only suspend disbelief so far.


There were a lot of fans that didn't. You are not alone. But it doesn't change the fact that Leia couldn't die before Luke. Again, this is only my opinion, but many fans still haven't understood the symbolism in the film. I think I have. - Again, my opinion.

I guess I give it more slack than I might have otherwise because of the real world reasons for that scene. I am sure they wanted something dramatic that would fit in with the story they already filmed and that would give Carrie Fisher/Leia an epic send off.

Sure it is a bit unrealistic, even in the in-world mythos, but it told a good story and it accomplished what it needed to for the flims going forward while honoring Fisher.



_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 15411
Location: Holland


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/25/17 8:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder how they are going to go with the Leia storyline in the last movie..



_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7085
Location: Northfield, MN


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/25/17 9:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
I wonder how they are going to go with the Leia storyline in the last movie..

Yeah, how they handle that it going to be a much bigger deal than one questionable scene, imo.



_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/25/17 10:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
If they want to Jedi to live on and not go extinct (and fight alongside the last rebels) then Rey having 2 non jedi parents would be best. Like with the little boy in the end


It never made sense for Force sensitivity to be an inherited trait. Jedi aren't allowed to have families. They would have died out long ago if it was strictly genetic.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57601
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/25/17 2:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richard 77 wrote:
My favorite line is the one from Yoda. "Sacred Jedi Texts. Read them, have you? Page turners, they are not."


Did you notice the locker Finn was going through on the Milennium Falcon at the end of the film?



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3845
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


Back to top
PostPosted: 12/25/17 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Richard 77 wrote:
My favorite line is the one from Yoda. "Sacred Jedi Texts. Read them, have you? Page turners, they are not."


Did you notice the locker Finn was going through on the Milennium Falcon at the end of the film?


Yes. There have been web articles circulating as to how and when they got there. Did she take them, or did Luke put them there? Or did Yoda Force move them there?



_________________
If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » Area 51 All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin