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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 9:56 am    ::: Al Franken Reply Reply with quote

Senator! #youtoo?


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 10:04 am    ::: Re: Al Franken Reply Reply with quote

Disgusting. He should resign.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 10:08 am    ::: Re: Al Franken Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Disgusting. He should resign.


I am shocked at how quickly we have gotten to the point of that possibility, which is now looking like an imminent eventuality. Shocked.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 11:38 am    ::: Re: Al Franken Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Disgusting. He should resign.

Michelle Goldberg wrote a very good opinion piece on this, and I trnd to agree. He should resign, not because his actions require this as a punishment, but to prevent worse offenders from using him as an example to avoid punishment for their actions.

Franken Should Go

Quote:
There’s a strong argument against Franken’s resignation, one not entirely motivated by partisanship, since a Democratic governor would appoint his successor. When that photo was taken, Franken was a comedian, and at the time comedians enjoyed wide cultural license to behave offensively. Tweeden told Fox News that, horrified as she was by the picture, she doesn’t think he needs to resign over it. “People make mistakes,” she said. The more we learn about how grotesquely prevalent sexual harassment is, the more I wonder if we can really toss aside every man who has ever crossed a line, and if we do, how many will remain.

The feminist Jacobin in me thinks: Who cares? Replace them all with women! But I doubt this frenzied moment ends with the collapse of patriarchy. Like Rebecca Traister, a New York magazine writer, I worry that there will be overreach and then a fierce and ugly backlash, as men — but not only men — decide we can’t just go around ruining people’s lives and careers by retroactively imposing today’s sexual standards on past actions. Besides, as more and more men get swept up in this moment of reckoning, we’re going to have to figure out some mechanism by which those accused of offenses that fall short of assault can make amends and get their lives back.

So my first instinct is to say that Franken deserves a chance to go through an ethics investigation but remain in the Senate, where he should redouble his efforts on behalf of abuse and harassment victims. But if that happens, the current movement toward unprecedented accountability for sexual harassers will probably start to peter out. Republicans, never particularly eager to hold their own to account, will use Franken to deflect from more egregious abuse on their own side, like what Trump and Roy Moore are accused of. Women with stories about other members of Congress might hesitate to come forward. That horrifying photo of Franken will confront feminists every time they decry Trump’s boasts of grabbing women by the genitals. Democrats will have to worry about whether more damaging information will come out, and given the way scandals like this tend to unfold, it probably will.

It’s not worth it. The question isn’t about what’s fair to Franken, but what’s fair to the rest of us. I would mourn Franken’s departure from the Senate, but I think he should go, and the governor should appoint a woman to fill his seat. The message to men in power about sexual degradation has to be clear: We will replace you.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 12:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What crap. Her brain dead "solution" is get rid of him, appoint a woman.

Who cares about qualifications or getting the best person or even the most re-electable person. Just so long as the person has the right genitals, or has declared themselves to be the correct gender. Because of course no women ever have any misconduct or skeletons in their closets.

And the dimwit thinks that's somehow an advancement in equality and human rights.

"WE will replace you." Because we all know that everything is a war, us against them.

What a jerk.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm so disappointed. I was a big supporter of his too.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Al Franken said he was wrong. He apologized. Lee Ann Tweeden accepted his apology. Going back 11 years to when this happened Tweeden never said to Franken, "How dare you!" She didn't bite down on his tongue or use her knee as a defense. She never confronted Franken about his inappropriate behavior. She was standoffish, that was it. She told nobody on the USO tour for fear of rocking the boat.

Al Franken was a comedian at the time, having come from Saturday Night Live. SNL has done a skit about a family called the Vogelchecks that inappropriately kisses each other.

Please don't mistake my comments for attacking the victim. What I am saying is that she made herself more of a victim by not speaking up for herself. In the power dynamic on that tour both she and Al Franken were talent, and from other comments she made the troops were more interested in her than in Al. She could have easily found a moment to tell him she was offended, and if she had I believe he would have apologized then. She would not have held in her anger for so many years.

When people are offended by words or actions, whether due to their sex or sexual orientation, race, physical condition, age or on any other basis, they have to decide what to do. If you choose to take no action understand that the offense may be repeated. If you choose to address it you may offend the other person or you may teach them something, and you may find that the other person isn't as horrible as you think he or she is.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 7:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, except when she rebuffed his advances he retaliated by treating her like shit the rest of the trip. He made fun of her, humiliated her verbally, and then, ultimately posed for the picture which kind of seals the deal.

Also, Franken was at that moment a longtime established star in comedy with all the power associated with that. Just three years from parlaying his fame into a successful Senate bid. Tweeden was, by contrast, a Fredricks of Hollywood catalogue and bathing suit model hoping for, I’m sure, as they all are at that level, greater fame and successes. So here was a woman, on a USO tour trying to entertain troops, and here was the established star punishing her for most of the trip for not being a more complient sexual play toy for him. If it happened that way then he is another now in a long line and maybe he should resign.

Not that the body he currently serves in is some kind of honorable American institution or anything like that. I mean that ship sailed a long time ago.




Last edited by jammerbirdi on 11/22/17 6:10 am; edited 2 times in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 7:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
and here was the established star punishing her for most of the trip for not being a more complient sexual play toy for him.

That is a pretty rough interpretation of what happened.

Advances? Rebuffed? Retaliation?

It was a comedian trying to do his comedy bit, but in so doing made someone feel used and humiliated.

Consider that this picture was not some big secret, that his actions were being done with an audience and shared with everyone. That doesn't make it right, but it should give a good frame for what was considered socially acceptable at the time. How it made her feel is exactly why social norms needed to change and why it is so important that this conversation needs to happen now.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 8:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
and here was the established star punishing her for most of the trip for not being a more complient sexual play toy for him.

That is a pretty rough interpretation of what happened.

Advances? Rebuffed? Retaliation?
.


I’m sorry. I really don’t understand. This is Tweeden’s description of what happened, not mine. Well, except for the ‘complient sexual play toy’ part. Understand that she gave many interviews on this yesterday, including locally here in LA, and the level of detail people are hearing might not be the same. I heard her describe the experience with Franken as advances that were rebuffed followed by retaliation.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What I read yesterday sounded a lot worse than just a comedian trying to do a comedy bit too.
I haven't read the NY Times opinion piece yet, but JT's summary of it is pretty much what my initial thoughts were as well. i.e. that it might be at the lower end of the scale, but just being on the scale is bad enough. There are undoubtedly people higher on the scale, and dealing appropriately with Franken would facilitate dealing with them too.

I was pretty underwhelmed by the apology, and it made me wonder if anyone else will now be coming forward with a similar story. To me that'll be what is telling. If it was a mistake that was learned from, then I would view it differently than if he did this multiple times.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:

I was pretty underwhelmed by the apology, and it made me wonder if anyone else will now be coming forward with a similar story.

The apology is about as good*, heartfelt, and self-aware as I have ever heard on something like this (it was infinitely better than the C.K. one), so I am surpised that was your reaction.

*Good being relative, since the only "good" thing would be not doing it at all

Here is his public apology in total (he also sent a personal private apology directly to her, which she has since publically accepted):

"The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

"I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.

"But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

"For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

"Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.

"While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women's experiences."



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
and here was the established star punishing her for most of the trip for not being a more complient sexual play toy for him.

That is a pretty rough interpretation of what happened.

Advances? Rebuffed? Retaliation?
.


I’m sorry. I really don’t understand. This is Tweeden’s description of what happened, not mine. Well, except for the ‘complient sexual play toy’ part. Understand that she gave many interviews on this yesterday, including locally here in LA, and the level of detail people are hearing might not be the same. I heard her describe the experience with Franken as advances that were rebuffed followed by retaliation.

What I have heard her describe is a rehearsal for a skit that he had written that she was uncomfortable with. After a bunch of pressure she finally relented and the rehearsal ended up with him grabbing and kissing her (as the script called for). She then pushed him away and told him never to do that again.

None of this reads as "advances" to me, but rather someone not listening to a woman who was telling him she was uncomfortable. This isn't predatory behavior (like Weinstein, C.K.' Moore, Trump, but rather line crossing and failure to respect boundaries and then making someone who is already shaken into the butt of sexually charged jokes. It is disgusting and inexcusable behavior, yes, but not the dark, calculated pursuit and retaliation that you seemed to be suggesting.

My guess is that in his mind there was no issue between him and Ms. Tweeden and that he thought they were on friendly terms and that she would think the picture funny when she saw it. He thought wrong and needs to face consequences for his behavior, but it isn't like he is suddenly some monster.

Now, all of this is predicated upon this being a one-off situation. If this is part of a pattern of behavior, then predation comes back into the picture. But I have never heard of any rumors and my own experiences with him, along with those of female friends and coworkers who have worked closely with him have been nothing but exceptionally positive. Factor in his general awareness, and I find it easy to believe what he wrote in his apology letter. Now it is very possible he is just good at hiding his darkness and is simply acting a role with us, but I am willing to wait for that ethics review (which will dig up skeletons like nothing else) and to see if other credible accusations arise, which if they exist I have to imagine they will, before judging him in the same vein as the others.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/17/17 10:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:


What I have heard her describe is a rehearsal for a skit that he had written that she was uncomfortable with. After a bunch of pressure she finally relented and the rehearsal ended up with him grabbing and kissing her (as the script called for). She then pushed him away and told him never to do that again.


So, are you saying that basically a Playboy covergirl who was invited on a USO tour to be flirtacious and suggestive just as has been done since the days of Bob Hope suddenly finds it offensive that the script calls for her to be flirtacious and suggestive?

Did she expect to recite poetry for the troops?



BTW, certainly not dispositive but relevant to the question of "pattern" of behavior:

"Amid a firestorm of criticism for sexually offensive behavior by Minnesota U.S. Sen. Al Franken, eight women who formerly worked for Franken issued the following statement Friday :

“Many of us spent years working for Senator Franken in Minnesota and Washington. In our time working for the Senator, he treated us with the utmost respect. He valued our work and our opinions and was a champion for women both in the legislation he supported and in promoting women to leadership roles in our offices.”
"


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PostPosted: 11/17/17 11:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Now, all of this is predicated upon this being a one-off situation. If this is part of a pattern of behavior, then predation comes back into the picture. But I have never heard of any rumors and my own experiences with him, along with those of female friends and coworkers who have worked closely with him have been nothing but exceptionally positive. Factor in his general awareness, and I find it easy to believe what he wrote in his apology letter. Now it is very possible he is just good at hiding his darkness and is simply acting a role with us, but I am willing to wait for that ethics review (which will dig up skeletons like nothing else) and to see if other credible accusations arise, which if they exist I have to imagine they will, before judging him in the same vein as the others.


Ya, this.

David Brooks spoke eloquently about the comparative status of guys like Moore/Weinstein and Franken, and the degrees of vileness on his analysis tonight on PBS newshour.

And of course, Sarah Fuckabee Sanders added her analysis too: Franken admitted to his predation, and The President has never admitted to anything, so they're totally different. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 12:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
justintyme wrote:


What I have heard her describe is a rehearsal for a skit that he had written that she was uncomfortable with. After a bunch of pressure she finally relented and the rehearsal ended up with him grabbing and kissing her (as the script called for). She then pushed him away and told him never to do that again.


So, are you saying that basically a Playboy covergirl who was invited on a USO tour to be flirtacious and suggestive just as has been done since the days of Bob Hope suddenly finds it offensive that the script calls for her to be flirtacious and suggestive?

Did she expect to recite poetry for the troops?





Bless your heart but the naiveté on display here is breathtaking. She is a performer and a professional. That means she produces a product, when the lights are on and the tape is rolling, the audience is in place and the curtain goes up (metaphorically) or, as in the cover shot here, and when the thousands of catalog modeling shots were taken, the photographer says, "hold that." Her product is her sexiness and her beauty and whatever personal charm and charisma she brings to the table as well. It is a business and a cold calculating one with lines that are drawn as sharply as they are in a courtroom. The notion that a performer of her nature on a USO tour to brighten the spirits of soldiers serving in the Middle East by, yes, even flirting with those soldiers, should be subjected, during a rehearsal to a fellow performer, the star, a 53 year old male, forcing a French kiss on her, exchanging saliva with her, as a part of the rehearsal, that she should have expected to be subject to that behavior and an incident of that type, is simply NOT what you're really meaning to suggest. You are a much better person than that.


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PostPosted: 11/18/17 1:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. What jammer said.


( Shocked )




2.
justintyme wrote:
Now, all of this is predicated upon this being a one-off situation. If this is part of a pattern of behavior, then predation comes back into the picture. But I have never heard of any rumors and my own experiences with him, along with those of female friends and coworkers who have worked closely with him have been nothing but exceptionally positive.

That's where I'm at, too. If he does respect women as he claims, then this story won't be a thing that opens the floodgates to others.



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hyperetic



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 2:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote from an unknown source but makes good points in my opinion:

I copied this from a comment where somebody else had copied it so I can't give credit and I don't know where it originally came from but I feel like it says what needs to be said better than I could.
People, we're going to have to have a talk about this post-Weinstein world.
I'm so happy that women are coming forward and feel empowered to speak out about the abuses, small and large, we've all been dealing with since time in memoriam. It's about damn time you men realized that you've been behaving very badly and it's time to stop.
That said, we have to come to a few agreements.
1) Purity doesn't work. To my knowledge, only one person in history never made a mistake and look what ended up happening to him. Expecting perfection from anyone else is an exercise in stupidity. Accept right now that people who you admire and respect have fucked up at some point in their life.
2) This level of "wokeness" is very, very new. Like so new that even last year, we weren't collectively believing the women. Like so new that even when Hef passed away a couple of months ago, I had men insisting to me that no one did more for women's sexual liberation than him. So let's not lay this level of awareness on a much less aware time.
3) We need to make a distinction--and this is really critical--between assholish and criminal behavior. That jerk catcalling you or the boss who loved dirty jokes are assholes. The guy who didn't take no for an answer until you left the club in disgust is an asshole. The bros who asked you whether your breasts were real are assholes. Preying on teenage girls to the extent that the mall needs to ban you from their premises is criminal. Rapists are criminal. All of them contribute to rape culture, but if we're going to ban all men guilty contributing to rape culture to the cornfield, it's going to be really lonely out here.
4) We have to create a pathway for men who want redemption. It's not without consequences and it does require contrition. But it has to be there. Because I am in my 50s now and I don't know a single man who lived through the 70s and 80s (which celebrated sexual harassment as a particular male entitlement) who would pass today's standards, including my own father and husband (whom I love beyond measure). That's the danger of retroactive lenses. Both my husband and my father are feminists and allies. But their awareness has grown and evolved and hasn't always been perfect. I forgive them their past mistakes and help them learn these new parameters. That's what we all have to do societally.
So as new accusations come out--and they will, and without question, the right will weaponize it--we need to know how to deal with it that doesn't make it impossible for us.
I don't have the answers, but I know we have to start the conversation.
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PostPosted: 11/18/17 2:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/17/im-a-feminist-i-study-rape-culture-and-i-dont-want-al-franken-to-resign/?tid=ss_fb-bottom&utm_term=.1ebd98455aea
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 4:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Luuuc wrote:

I was pretty underwhelmed by the apology, and it made me wonder if anyone else will now be coming forward with a similar story.

The apology is about as good*, heartfelt, and self-aware as I have ever heard on something like this (it was infinitely better than the C.K. one), so I am surpised that was your reaction.

*Good being relative, since the only "good" thing would be not doing it at all

Here is his public apology in total (he also sent a personal private apology directly to her, which she has since publically accepted):

"The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

"I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.

"But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

"For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

"Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.

"While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women's experiences."


Yeah, once again, I don't see this apology exactly the same way as others do here. I see it as GOOD, as in, yeah, good job, Team Al, but it's really just an extremely fine example of damage control via virtue signaling and by a real pro. It doesn't matter. I don't really feel that people can talk themselves out of these things, for one. But more important and damning IMO is the one phrase that is the only, IMO, truly operative sentence in the entire statement.

I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does

That's all Al Franken is really saying. He won't dare dispute her claims but hmm hah he remembers it differently than she remembers it. United States Senator vs the lingerie model.

So you guys are talking about sort of a severity scale and you're absolutely right, there is and always will be one in play as some things are actually illegal and others aren't and some are even more illegal than others. But there are other considerations I think that come into play. Franken was just three years from taking the oath as a United States Senator. Three years! That's cutting it close.

This is an interesting situation because it involves two drastically different career environments, and then some. And Al and this scandal from his erstwhile life places him right smack in the unsweet spot of straddling both worlds in a very short time. But, like I said, there's no free kisses involving shoving your tongue into the mouth of an already protesting co-performer during a rehearsal. I'm not saying he should resign but I don't see defending or placing his actions in the context with Roy Moore for the purpose of saying, oh, at least he wasn’t banned from malls, or anything like that. That discussion would likely sound pretty horrible to the woman who had this guy pull that shit on her.

As I said with Louis CXK Wink, this is a situation where a guy like this, a high level famous talent places women in a 'predicament' (Louis CK's' word) that these men are FULLY aware they are putting these women in. I'm sorry if that's hard for people to accept because of Franken's politics but he wasn't a politician back when this happened.


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PostPosted: 11/18/17 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Really, Franken should resign?

Get a grip on reality. There is no comparison between fuckers like Moore, Trump, Spacey, and Weinstein, to Franken.

And fuck the Democrats if they cave here.



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would resign under these circumstances. First of all, the Gov. of Minnesota is a Democrat so no one needs to worry about changing the power balance in the Senate. Second - politicians, even Senators are an easily replaceable commodity - there are plenty of qualified people who can (and want to) do the job. Third, his future in the Senate is now limited - he can't move up to say Senate Minority or Majority leader - too many raised eyebrows. Nor does it seem he is now a valid candidate for higher office, or a future cabinet post. Finally, it would set the bar high enough so that when a Republican is subject to similar scrutiny (and that may happen soon, if Moore gets elected) there is no argument of "Franken did things too."

The real question is whether more women come forward with allegations. It seems in these situations improper acts are not one time only. Franken knows what skeletons are in his closet and if there are others - he would be saving himself a lot of grief. Of course, for some people these types of things are a lifestyle - and not viewed as having done anything wrong. Franken has already said he doesn't remember the encounter the same way. Apparently, he forced his tongue down so many mouths it was not all that unusual.

This all may seem harsh, but when one enters the world of politics there is virtually nothing that can remain a secret and everything - even what you ate for breakfast is fair game. If one has not lived a pious life, enter politics are your own peril. Either that or while campaigning admit to all your sins publicly and say "here is what the voters are getting." I admit that hardly seems like a formula for success.

No matter what, this is not shaping up to be the start of the Al Franken Decade.



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 6:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I would resign under these circumstances. First of all, the Gov. of Minnesota is a Democrat so no one needs to worry about changing the power balance in the Senate. Second - politicians, even Senators are an easily replaceable commodity - there are plenty of qualified people who can (and want to) do the job. Third, his future in the Senate is now limited - he can't move up to say Senate Minority or Majority leader - too many raised eyebrows. Nor does it seem he is now a valid candidate for higher office, or a future cabinet post. Finally, it would set the bar high enough so that when a Republican is subject to similar scrutiny (and that may happen soon, if Moore gets elected) there is no argument of "Franken did things too."

The real question is whether more women come forward with allegations. It seems in these situations improper acts are not one time only. Franken knows what skeletons are in his closet and if there are others - he would be saving himself a lot of grief. Of course, for some people these types of things are a lifestyle - and not viewed as having done anything wrong. Franken has already said he doesn't remember the encounter the same way. Apparently, he forced his tongue down so many mouths it was not all that unusual.

This all may seem harsh, but when one enters the world of politics there is virtually nothing that can remain a secret and everything - even what you ate for breakfast is fair game. If one has not lived a pious life, enter politics are your own peril. Either that or while campaigning admit to all your sins publicly and say "here is what the voters are getting." I admit that hardly seems like a formula for success.

No matter what, this is not shaping up to be the start of the Al Franken Decade.


Stay the course- Dems resign, Reps elected.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Franken has already said he doesn't remember the encounter the same way. Apparently, he forced his tongue down so many mouths it was not all that unusual.

Or he remembers it as a rehearsal for a skit and didn't realize she was as bothered by it as she was.

It is very possible that his motives in this situation were not shady at all and he simply wanted to rehearse the kiss the skit called for with his co-star before they went live (this is not an abnormal request as kissing on stage can be awkward if everyone is not prepared). It is also very possible that based on her experiences in Hollywood she read the same situation as him trying to make moves on her and ultimately "ramming his tongue" down her throat. This would create a situation where it was extremely traumatizing for one person while unremarkable to the other.

Or, he was being a total sleaze and using her for his own gratification.

If it is the second I would fully expect to hear more people come forward as doing that as a one off would be odd.



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PostPosted: 11/18/17 8:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This question is to jammerbirdi or anyone else who perhaps heard Ms. Tweeden describe in more detail what happened on the tour. Did Ms. Tweeden ever confront Al Franken and directly tell him that she was extremely offended by his actions? From what I heard she seemed to have been greatly offended but she also said that she continued on "like a trooper" for the remainder of the tour. Is it possible that she did such a good job of being a trooper that he didn't realize she took such offense?

As for the picture, consider for a moment if Franken had wanted to grope her. Would it make sense to look away from her and right at the camera. No, it was clearly intended as a funny picture, even if the humor didn't land with Ms. Tweeden. I would feel differently if she had directly confronted him either at the time or at some point in the next 10 days to explain that she really took offense.

But if she didn't then I don't see why Al Franken would have believed there was any need to apologize. When, more than 10 years later he was informed that she was offended, he first gave a brief apology followed by a more complete public apology as well as a hand written letter which he had delivered to Miss Tweeden


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PostPosted: 11/18/17 10:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laura Ingraham showed a clip the other day of Biden decrying sexual harassment in a speech and then followed that up with clips of Biden getting way too close to a bunch of women and girls that he was honoring or talking to in some official ceremony. As in this picture:



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PostPosted: 11/19/17 3:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

It is very possible that his motives in this situation were not shady at all and he simply wanted to rehearse the kiss the skit called for with his co-star before they went live (this is not an abnormal request as kissing on stage can be awkward if everyone is not prepared).


No. This is a USO tour played lightly for shits and grins. Not to the rigorous standards of real show business or Broadway or anything like that. And Leeann Tweeden is not an actress she's a flat out lip smacking piece of human cheesecake. That's not a sexist insult, that's her chosen career.

I've seen her in person. She was a waitress trainee at Chin Chin on Sunset Blvd one brief moment when she must have first landed here. So she was very young. I think I saw her basically ONE time that afternoon. She maybe only came to our table once as she was 'following' whoever was training her that day and I never saw her working there after that. But sometimes, as a guy, or maybe I guess as a girl too, I knew this was someone I would probably remember forever. Maybe almost a decade later I see her in her subsequent role as a swimsuit or bikini model on TV or something and I instantly remembered her from that one solitary afternoon many years prior. That's the kind of whatever you want to call it, talent, lol, I guess, that she brings to the table. At that point, she was a knock your socks off knockout. I just took a quick look, you can't even find pictures of her from that far back.

But then she became kind of augmented by plastic surgery and time but the point here is this, there's no need for the purpose of a skit on a USO tour for actual kissing in rehearsal. But... any heterosexual man this side of 110 years old would be plotting from the minute he laid eyes on Ms Tweeden how he might somehow get his lips attached to her personage. Al should not have given into this basic animal urge that is, in and of itself, totally understandable. Motives not shady? Only if he's gay would that be remotely believable.

He did this. And he did it just three years prior to becoming a US senator which is very problematic IMO. It's workplace behavior and, IMO, that's especially egregious. Does the person running to be a US Senator respect women in the workplace? Uh. How about give me a break!

So I don't buy so much the picture being the most problematic aspect of this incident but it certainly illustrates the attitude and focus Franken had on this woman and her female attributes. But French kissing a woman by surprise and then treating her like shit in retaliation because she rebuffed you is... and doing this shit in your 50s... lol... uh... it's not forgivable or excusable. Unless he has some kind of a freewheeling arrangement with his wife, which I CERTAINLY understand, then I don't know how she would excuse this behavior upon hearing it. It's plain as day and there isn't any cover here. People shouldn't try. Bill Clinton had way more cover with Monica Lewinsky after all the things Monica had said prior to her even becoming a White House Intern. She was gunning for a sexual encounter with the president before she even arrived at the White House.

Anyway, in answer to calbearman76, is YES, she says she rebuffed the shit out of him. Warning him that if he ever did it again she'd ... you know... whatever! lol. And then, according to her, the derision and humiliating comments started as he made the rest of her trip sort of miserable. And again, workplace (even if and maybe especially if the work is volunteering your time for a benefit event or a USO tour) advances, and then retaliation for speaking up or rebuffing those advances, is the worst. I'd rather hear of a lot of things than those kinds of situations.

But in Hollywood, it's that and then some.

Look, some of this is my opinion, some of it is just what I would think of as facts. But I don't want to argue about it. I'm incredibly bummed that Al Franken has been implicated as being one of those who has treated a woman this way. I'm not suprised, though. But, honestly, I wish we could replace every member of Congress and the occupiers of the Oval Office with all Al Franken clones. We would have a different country and world. But as it is, this is what we've got. And Al Franken the man, warts and all, and not the liberal left pipe-dream, is the reality of the situation. We all have to deal with that or we're just not true to the ideal that goddamnit a woman is not to be treated this way.


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PostPosted: 11/19/17 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ssems Franken isn't the only one sexually harassing someone.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/11/18/1716798/-More-Photos-Emerging-From-Franken-Tweeden-s-USO-Tour-They-speak-for-themselves

check out her grabbing a guitarist's butt. has she apologized to him?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/19/17 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just in case you think the rendition of events is politically tinged in any way, I hope you realize Tweeden was a regular on the Sean Hannity's show for a couple of years.


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PostPosted: 11/19/17 11:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Really, Franken should resign?

Get a grip on reality. There is no comparison between fuckers like Moore, Trump, Spacey, and Weinstein, to Franken.

And fuck the Democrats if they cave here.


Of course they are different. I'm just saying Franken should resign. Moore, Trump, and Weinstein should be in jail.

Democrats are supposed to be better than what Franken did. As Jon Stewart said, on Comedy's best day it isn't good to women. This was disgusting. "Liberals" have shown a trend towards sexism as of late (or at least let their true colors show). This isn't caving, this is cleaning out our party.

And yeah, put a woman in his place. I don't think having a vagina is what makes a person qualified, but you know..if boys will be boys and they just can't help it, clearly a dick is disqualifying. Can't have someone who is too tied to their biology making important decisions. Wink

seriously though, and I say this all the time..a majority of the teenagers I know seem to understand this shit is a "no no," what the fuck is wrong with the 50+ club?



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 10:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Really, Franken should resign?

Get a grip on reality. There is no comparison between fuckers like Moore, Trump, Spacey, and Weinstein, to Franken.

And fuck the Democrats if they cave here.


Of course they are different. I'm just saying Franken should resign. Moore, Trump, and Weinstein should be in jail.

Democrats are supposed to be better than what Franken did. As Jon Stewart said, on Comedy's best day it isn't good to women. This was disgusting. "Liberals" have shown a trend towards sexism as of late (or at least let their true colors show). This isn't caving, this is cleaning out our party.

And yeah, put a woman in his place. I don't think having a vagina is what makes a person qualified, but you know..if boys will be boys and they just can't help it, clearly a dick is disqualifying. Can't have someone who is too tied to their biology making important decisions. Wink

seriously though, and I say this all the time..a majority of the teenagers I know seem to understand this shit is a "no no," what the fuck is wrong with the 50+ club?



Was there a laying of the hands on the sleeping woman's uniform-covered breasts?

If not, then Franken should stand firm and remain in the Senate.

Sophomoric poor taste, especially given the circumstances, does not preclude sitting in the US Senate, in my 50+ yr old white guy's opinion. Razz




and furthermore Smile , Jon Stewart did a great disservice, and forever sullied his rep, imo, with his asinine and inaccurate "both sides do it" comment prior to, or at, the Washington march a few years ago.



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stever



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 11:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/us/politics/a-second-woman-accuses-al-franken-of-inappropriate-touching.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0



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tfan



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 11:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Was there a laying of the hands on the sleeping woman's uniform-covered breasts?"

That hasn't been reported, but it hasn't stopped people on TV (I think I heard at least one Democrat say that - likely one of the ones who are calling for him to resign) refer to it as "groping" not "simulated groping".


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PostPosted: 11/20/17 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Better shoot the fucker.



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/us/politics/a-second-woman-accuses-al-franken-of-inappropriate-touching.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Seriously? So her belief is that Franken, as a sitting Senator, decided to play grab-ass with her while her husband took a picture. Her, out of the multitudes of women who have taken said pictures, he decided to risk his career and reputation over.

I guess I have sexually molested numerous women over the years during pictures when my hand has ended up on their butts (usually because of missing the hips, where one's hand often rests during pictures).



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We're not seriously at a point where patting somebody on the ass disqualifies an otherwise perfectly suitable individual from elective office, are we.

The rest of the world is probably laughing at our prudishness once again.

That people are somehow equating this to forcing a 14 year old's face into one's crotch manifests just how absurd this has become.

Reading Miller's "The Crucible" should become a mandatory prerequisite to voting.


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PostPosted: 11/20/17 8:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
We're not seriously at a point where patting somebody on the ass disqualifies an otherwise perfectly suitable individual from elective office, are we.


I would hope so.


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PostPosted: 11/20/17 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


I would hope so.


I like being on the same side.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


I would hope so.


I like being on the same side.


Why am I not surprised. Rolling Eyes


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PostPosted: 11/20/17 10:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


I would hope so.


I like being on the same side.


Why am I not surprised. Rolling Eyes


I'm not surprised at your position either.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 10:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


I would hope so.


I like being on the same side.


Why am I not surprised. Rolling Eyes


Huh? lol. Look. Imagine when I was back covering the Sparks, I'm in the locker room interviewing Candace Parker, the interview ends, she turns toward her locker and I pat her on the ass. What do you think they would do to me? I mean, after I have my face surgically repaired? Well, I would certainly be done covering the Sparks. I'm not sure I wouldn't be facing some kind of a criminal charge either. I know that shit. That's why I never played grabass with a WNBA player.

Okay. How about the janitor in a office building grabbing patting the ass of the female CEO. lol. I mean, come on!

So a man running for office should be treated differently? Really? These guys with the senator haircuts never saying anything but pablum so that they can get elected and get up there and take money from special interests and never do the bidding of the actual people of this country. THOSE GUYS should get a pass? lol.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/20/17 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


I would hope so.


I like being on the same side.


Why am I not surprised. Rolling Eyes


I'm not surprised at your position either.


I know you'd like to live in Themyscira, but that's only in your comic book dreams.


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PostPosted: 11/21/17 2:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Of course this stupidity that Franken is being accused of here isn't even "patting on the ass". It's his hand touching her butt while a photo was taken. Have you all even seen the picture of the non-incident? Two smiling people in a normal looking photo.

I mean, how would you all feel if some random person you took a picture with 10 years ago suddenly accused you of grabbing their butt because your hand rested there briefly and you didn’t realize it?
And then people wanted you fired for it.

It is shit like this that will derail the whole movement, as people are going to start saying WTF to some of these charges. And then the legitimate complaints are going to get swept up and lost in the idiocy.

Hell, just look at the "story" the NY Post was running with today where they had pictures of Franken supposedly grabbing Arianna Huffinton's chest. Yet Huffington herself said there was nothing wrong with what he was doing and provided context for the pictures. You would figure that as soon as she said that it would be a non-story....but nope, they still went to press with their salacious headline.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 2:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A chest-groping photo pose is more in the category of "Who exactly did you think would find this funny???" IMO. But that's not the problem here anyway. It's just an unfortunate bonus chapter to the story, and I am pretty sure you know that.



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 10:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

But it is a chapter to an entirely different story. The Huffington photo, as explained by her, was an homage to a skit they did together years before on SNL. They are very good friends and she was not uncomfortable or pressured in the least. That means that it shares nothing at all in context with the other allegations. To even allude to it like it does is defamatory and dangerous.



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 12:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess the way I look at some of this stuff is by internalizing the situations, and extrapolating them to things that have happened in my own life. I then ask myself if I felt that I was being inappropriate, or what my reaction to this would be if someone accused me.

Take the photograph. I know for a fact that on at least a few occasions my hand has ended up on a butt by accident for a few seconds. And once that I know of, I ended up with a hand on a boob. The circumstances around the latter involved me in a group picture with my arm resting on a friend's shoulder with my hand draped in front of them. It was just the position we ended up in as people pushed into the photo. I eventually realized where my hand was, apologized and moved it. My friend laughed, and it was no big deal. However, it had been there for some time before I became aware. If the picture had been taken quickly, I likely would never have realized it and wouldn't have apologized. It is very conceivable that she could have interpreted that as me trying to take advantage of the situation in order to cop a feel, even though that was absolutely not the case. In other times I have had my hand on what I thought was their hip, but when thinking about it later realized that I might have grabbed ass when I pulled them into me for the picture. No nefarious thoughts on my part, just an honest mistake. Again, it is possible that this woman thought I was doing it on purpose. And if I had realized it at the time I would have apologized and made sure she knew it was an accident. But here is the thing, I am sure it has happened other times and I haven't realized it even after the fact.

All this said, what would I feel, and how would I respond if these women came forward and accused me of sexual misconduct? What if it threatened my job?

Where is this line drawn? Does believing women mean that we can't also allow for innocent explanations for events that could easily have them? Is it possible for two people to experience the same circumstances, but walk away with two entirely different, honestly held beliefs about what just occurred? These are some serious questions that I think we need to examine about these things or we risk over-correcting and ultimately undoing some of our progress.



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 2:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have a little difficulty with the idea that Franken's tongue ended up in her mouth by accident (just a "slip of the tongue"), or that they came from the situation with any confusion about that happened. My guess is he was testing the waters for a romantic encounter but didn't get anywhere.

As for "incidental contact" - probably the wise course to take is to only be in selfies from now on. (I personally hate posing for pictures, so would work just fine for me.) Razz



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 3:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Really, Franken should resign?

Get a grip on reality. There is no comparison between fuckers like Moore, Trump, Spacey, and Weinstein, to Franken.

And fuck the Democrats if they cave here.

Totally agree. There's no comparison with Franken to any of these other guys you mentioned. The other guys have allegations whereas Franken's accusers have photographic evidence.

I agree with your other point too. Don't cave. Stay in there! In fact, he should not only stay on as senator, but he should run for re-election too. It would be the gift that keeps on giving!


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PostPosted: 11/21/17 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I have a little difficulty with the idea that Franken's tongue ended up in her mouth by accident (just a "slip of the tongue"), or that they came from the situation with any confusion about that happened. My guess is he was testing the waters for a romantic encounter but didn't get anywhere.

As for "incidental contact" - probably the wise course to take is to only be in selfies from now on. (I personally hate posing for pictures, so would work just fine for me.) Razz

That wasn't an accident, it was rehearsal for a skit....

Honestly, did no one watch SNL back in the day? This type of frat humor was their bread and butter. Most of it isn't funny today and quite a bit of it is troubling. Comedy isn't evergreen.

This is someone who has had zero rumors or whispers against him, no open secrets amongst his aides, no big rush of matching stories to show a pattern of behavior, yet people jump to the worst possible assumption and ignore the reasonable alternative that he was not trying to use the skit as some sort of come on.



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PostPosted: 11/21/17 4:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.startribune.com/sack-cartoon-al-franken/458097283/



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