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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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 Posted: 07/23/19 10:55 pm ::: |
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One of the best takes on this is something I read on twitter from Sady Doyle:
"We’ve normalized the idea that losing your job should be THE MOST severe consequence, for THE MOST severe offenses, and not just the first point of order before we decide on more serious stuff
If you kiss coworkers on the mouth, you should be fired. If you call coworkers gendered slurs or comment on their bodies, you should be fired. If you spend your work day screaming sexist, racist shit at women on Twitter, you should be fired. If you RAPE, that’s more than a firing
And since Al Franken only lost his job, and was not in fact left to die in the jungle after being mauled by monkeys or whateverthefuck, he is a wonderful example of a just and proportionate consequence for someone who harassed women but didn’t rape them.
It’s all the guys who routinely committed sexual assault and were “punished” by spending six months in their mansions before filming the next Netflix special, that we should worry about. THAT is the shit that actually isn’t fair."
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 11188
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| Posted: 07/24/19 2:13 pm ::: |
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<embed><iframe width="644" height="362" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B4YzoU369Uk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>
https://youtu.be/B4YzoU369Uk
<embed><iframe width="644" height="362" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DwD5h7xQWh4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwD5h7xQWh4
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19763
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| Posted: 07/24/19 2:39 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
One of the best takes on this is something I read on twitter from Sady Doyle:
"We’ve normalized the idea that losing your job should be THE MOST severe consequence, for THE MOST severe offenses, and not just the first point of order before we decide on more serious stuff
If you kiss coworkers on the mouth, you should be fired. If you call coworkers gendered slurs or comment on their bodies, you should be fired. If you spend your work day screaming sexist, racist shit at women on Twitter, you should be fired. If you RAPE, that’s more than a firing
And since Al Franken only lost his job, and was not in fact left to die in the jungle after being mauled by monkeys or whateverthefuck, he is a wonderful example of a just and proportionate consequence for someone who harassed women but didn’t rape them.
It’s all the guys who routinely committed sexual assault and were “punished” by spending six months in their mansions before filming the next Netflix special, that we should worry about. THAT is the shit that actually isn’t fair." |
Wonderfully said.
I also think the Franken case is a magnificent example of the sexism that exists on the blue side of the aisle..as well as the tribal mentality that can exist, even when Democrats don’t like to admit it.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16361
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 07/25/19 4:42 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
One of the best takes on this is something I read on twitter from Sady Doyle:
"We’ve normalized the idea that losing your job should be THE MOST severe consequence, for THE MOST severe offenses, and not just the first point of order before we decide on more serious stuff
If you kiss coworkers on the mouth, you should be fired. If you call coworkers gendered slurs or comment on their bodies, you should be fired. If you spend your work day screaming sexist, racist shit at women on Twitter, you should be fired. If you RAPE, that’s more than a firing
And since Al Franken only lost his job, and was not in fact left to die in the jungle after being mauled by monkeys or whateverthefuck, he is a wonderful example of a just and proportionate consequence for someone who harassed women but didn’t rape them.
It’s all the guys who routinely committed sexual assault and were “punished” by spending six months in their mansions before filming the next Netflix special, that we should worry about. THAT is the shit that actually isn’t fair." |
And he wasn't even fired. He resigned. Which he did not have to do.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 07/25/19 8:01 pm ::: |
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He was forced to resign and he was in shock. Neither one of those realities should be downplayed. There are two things going on here that are just lost in the gender politics of the moment that it seems we must all bow down to and proceed accordingly.
One is the Tweeden situation. Then there's the other accusers.
Other than his politics and his brilliance, it seems like Franken might have been a bad fit for elective office in this era and especially in the US senate. At best, he has that lack of a gauge of what's appropriate in terms of contact and behaviors with people and especially women. And that's being very generous. Because I don't really buy that he 'has no sexuality' as Sarah Silverman said and that it is all simply his personal clueless awkwardness. People can be like that but they usually aren't as successful as an Al Franken has been in his life. They usually have special needs. At worst, he liked to play grab-ass with women and was generally touchy smoochie. Trump himself described the proclivity and we've seen the behavior from Biden, Trump, the pastor running Aretha Franklin's funeral, Bush I and many others. So when these women surfaced I felt that Al had to go.
But... not so fast. Because there's another aspect that this New Yorker piece reveals. And that is why Franken shouldn't have been forced out without a hearing.
The Tweeden stuff was a political hit job. Straight up. The details are appalling. So here is what was lost by not having that hearing. The American people, who hear of things but don't necessarily have any eyes-on experience that those things exist, would and could have seen for themselves the lengths that people will go in partisan politics to destroy the opponent. This could have opened millions of people's eyes. They would have seen it for themselves. This, to me, is a badly needed function right now and one of the many missed opportunities to educate the public about what goes on in the world of politics beyond the endlessly repetitive shit they're fed all day long every day.
The Tweeden thing was bullshit. But many of us, including me, fell for it. It was launched by a failing right wing AM radio station here in LA and who knows who else was behind the orchestrating of it. It was just a bunch of bullshit that brought down what we knew of then as a very fine US senator. Without that, we would have likely never know of the grab-ass stuff and I think we'd all have to really ask ourselves whether he should have been removed from the senate, in this time of endless politically partisan warfare, because of that. We are always going to live in a country where southern Republican senators who are repugnant to many of us politically are NOT EVER going to be brought down by a handful of women coming forward and claiming they grabbed ass during photo-ops.
Tell me you wouldn't take a clone of Al Franken in every seat of the United States government right now over what we have._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 07/29/19 6:26 am ::: |
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| At least Gillibrand paid a price.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/19 1:51 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| At least Gillibrand paid a price. |
Which is a shame because she’s a hell of a senator, and Franken deserved to lose his job.
At some point, we just have to be zero tolerance. Be the opposite of the GOP.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 07/29/19 10:54 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| At least Gillibrand paid a price. |
Which is a shame because she’s a hell of a senator, and Franken deserved to lose his job.
At some point, we just have to be zero tolerance. Be the opposite of the GOP. |
Shame that her candidacy failed to get off the ground? Like we need 25?
For what, exactly, did Franken deserve to lose his job?
Zero tolerance as in, we won't tolerate investigation?
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/30/19 1:12 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| At least Gillibrand paid a price. |
Which is a shame because she’s a hell of a senator, and Franken deserved to lose his job.
At some point, we just have to be zero tolerance. Be the opposite of the GOP. |
Shame that her candidacy failed to get off the ground? Like we need 25?
For what, exactly, did Franken deserve to lose his job?
Zero tolerance as in, we won't tolerate investigation? |
If you had 8 allegations of sexual harassment, some of which included pictures, you'd lose your job.
Nah, it's not a shame her candidacy didn't take off. (I actually don't particularly like her for President, although would take her in a heartbeat over Tulsi, Biden, and Sanders). She lacks charisma in an astounding way..and I do think that is part of the reason her campaign never took off.
It's a shame that she's consistently blamed for Franken's resignation, and consistently harassed by the brogressives about it.
His behavior was unacceptable and she was one of 38 senators calling for his resignation.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15744
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 07/30/19 3:56 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| His behavior was unacceptable and she was one of 38 senators calling for his resignation. |
"Unacceptable" does not equal "Irreparably Irredeemable", AND some of those 38 publically stated their regret over their hasty decision. This, to me, was a classic example of the Dems being all too quick to hit the Circular Firing Squad button.
Bad? Yep. Reprehensible, even. But it WAS in the past, and it's not like he denied it or refused to own up to it: he did. And nothing he did was nearly as egregious as what Trump has unapologetically done (and refused to own up to). There ARE degrees of transgression, and Franken's were not enough, imo, to warrant him giving up his seat, where he exercised intelligent, reasonable judgment. Sum total, it was a loss for the Dems.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/30/19 4:10 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| His behavior was unacceptable and she was one of 38 senators calling for his resignation. |
"Unacceptable" does not equal "Irreparably Irredeemable", AND some of those 38 publically stated their regret over their hasty decision. This, to me, was a classic example of the Dems being all too quick to hit the Circular Firing Squad button.
Bad? Yep. Reprehensible, even. But it WAS in the past, and it's not like he denied it or refused to own up to it: he did. And nothing he did was nearly as egregious as what Trump has unapologetically done (and refused to own up to). There ARE degrees of transgression, and Franken's were not enough, imo, to warrant him giving up his seat, where he exercised intelligent, reasonable judgment. Sum total, it was a loss for the Dems. |
Agree to disagree.
Franken’s transgressions weren’t enough to put him in jail, like Trump’s should. But enough to lose his job..yep.
Franken’s actions weren’t that far in the past. It is reasonable for the women around him to not want to work with him.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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