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The fate of the Liberty: Where to play in New York

 
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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 10:32 am    ::: The fate of the Liberty: Where to play in New York Reply Reply with quote

I'm looking for good news here ...

First, I'm shaky on New York geography, and I don't even know if Barclay's counts as New York City (I know it's in Brooklyn, but are they considered the same?), so please forgive my West Coast ignorance.

So it appears that MSG looked at the Liberty deal, and its balance sheet, and decided it could make more money with those 17 dates than James Dolan was willing to pay.

Question 1: Does anyone have any idea if the Liberty could make a go of it paying market value for games at MSG?

Question 2: Would Dolan have been willing to play at Barclay's, or is his situation such that if the Liberty didn't play at MSG, it didn't make sense for him? Could a new owner afford the rent at Barclay's?

Question 3: Are there any other suitable sites (relatively modern, relatively accessible to the existing fan base) in New York? If so, could a new owner break even there?

Question 4: By what date would the Liberty need to lock down the 17 dates for the coming summer? Given that the schedule has to mesh with arena availability in the other 11 cities, my feeling is that deadline is fairly soon, but I could easily be wrong.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of this has been discussed at length in other threads, especially alternative sites that might or might not be desirable.

New York City has five boroughs: Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, and Staten Island. So, yes, Brooklyn is part of New York City. For those unfamiliar with New York City's geography, Brooklyn is across the river from Manhattan. Indeed, you can walk from Manhattan to Brooklyn or vice versa over the Brooklyn Bridge, the Manhattan Bridge, or the Williamsburg Bridge. Some residents commute to work that way.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Barclay’s is 25 min south of MSG on the subway so it’s perfectly acceptable to me...and I’m nearly 1:45 away in the North Bronx. I see MSG, Barclays or the Westchester County Center being the only three options.

But let’s get a buyer first. At this point discussing a landing site is moot without that.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 10:54 am    ::: Re: The fate of the Liberty: Where to play in New York Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So it appears that MSG looked at the Liberty deal, and its balance sheet, and decided it could make more money with those 17 dates than James Dolan was willing to pay.

Just to mention, it seems to have become an accepted idea around here that the value of those 17 dates is why Dolan is trying to sell the Liberty, but that doesn't have to be the primary reason. I mean, those 17 dates have probably been pretty valuable for the last 20 years, and they carried on owning the Liberty then (while NBA owners all around the country were dropping out of the WNBA like flies).

Maybe Dolan just realised he doesn't give a crap about whether the team wins or loses, so owning it seemed pretty silly. Maybe he heard one too many WNBA jokes and it broke the camel's back. Maybe the wife of that CEO that 'departed' was the only person he knew who cared about the Liberty, so as soon as the guy was gone they moved to dump the team out of spite. There could be all manner of reasons, especially in that organisation.

Also, there's been nothing explicitly said about what MSG/Dolan would do if they can't find a buyer. NBA owners start 'looking to sell' or 'searching for new investment' in their NBA teams all the time, and if they don't find a deal they like, they just carry on owning. Yes, the WNBA's obviously different, but it's not like anyone's actually stated that "if we can't find anyone to take this thing off our hands, we're closing the doors."



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 11:45 am    ::: Re: The fate of the Liberty: Where to play in New York Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So it appears that MSG looked at the Liberty deal, and its balance sheet, and decided it could make more money with those 17 dates than James Dolan was willing to pay.

Just to mention, it seems to have become an accepted idea around here that the value of those 17 dates is why Dolan is trying to sell the Liberty, but that doesn't have to be the primary reason. I mean, those 17 dates have probably been pretty valuable for the last 20 years, and they carried on owning the Liberty then (while NBA owners all around the country were dropping out of the WNBA like flies).

Maybe Dolan just realised he doesn't give a crap about whether the team wins or loses, so owning it seemed pretty silly. Maybe he heard one too many WNBA jokes and it broke the camel's back. Maybe the wife of that CEO that 'departed' was the only person he knew who cared about the Liberty, so as soon as the guy was gone they moved to dump the team out of spite. There could be all manner of reasons, especially in that organisation.

Also, there's been nothing explicitly said about what MSG/Dolan would do if they can't find a buyer. NBA owners start 'looking to sell' or 'searching for new investment' in their NBA teams all the time, and if they don't find a deal they like, they just carry on owning. Yes, the WNBA's obviously different, but it's not like anyone's actually stated that "if we can't find anyone to take this thing off our hands, we're closing the doors."


I agree with your perspective. We don't know what Dolan's motivations are. If it's an "accepted idea" that this is all about getting more revenue from those 17 dates, then count me as someone who doesn't accept that "accepted idea."

In my view, anyone looking for rational business decisions from slimy Jimmy Dolan is wrong. Any of your speculations could be correct or incorrect. Indeed, Dolan's reasons for wanting to sell the Liberty could be far more bizarre and ridiculous than anything we can imagine.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.


In most of life, it makes sense to try to "make sense" of something that's happening. When it involves Jimmy Dolan, it doesn't.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.


In most of life, it makes sense to try to "make sense" of something that's happening. When it involves Jimmy Dolan, it doesn't.


In the business community, Dolan is considered an OK manager and asset allocator -- nothing special -- but serviceable. We're talking about his whole history going back to Cablevision. Dolan has been a disaster for the Knicks from a won/loss point of view, but they make money. The Rangers have been good for the last few years, and the venues (MSG, Radio City, Beacon Theater, The Forum) do well. The Rockettes also make a lot of money performing outside of Radio City. The one long-term unprofitable business (at least on paper) is the Liberty.

MSG Networks, which is in a separate company, is seeing decline just like most cable businesses. Most people know about the mass layoffs at ESPN. So, struggles at MSGN are industry-wide and not specifically Dolan's fault. Turmoil at the two companies is not only unrelated, but happening for opposite reasons. MSGN is in play because it is losing value, whereas MSG is in play because shareholders feel that its asset appreciation is not reflected in the share price.

My sense is that Dolan never cared about the Liberty. Like a lot of the NBA guys, he jumped in because of David Stern. For whatever reason, Dolan hung in longer than the other owners even though we've been hearing rumors about him wanting to exit for awhile. Like Richyyy said, I wouldn't assume anything is inevitable at this point.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/24/17 4:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.


There's no "red ink." MSG makes lots of money. But MSG Corp is a publicly traded corporation and there is a strong feeling among some significant institutional investors that it is significantly undervalued and that the sum of the parts is worth more than the current whole. There is considerable pressure on the company to break up the entertainment, sports, and real estate assets and to spin them off or sell them, in order to maximize value.

When pressure like that is brought to bear, one of the first reactions of management is typically to shed tangential and underperforming assets. It makes the balance sheet look better, and it makes it a lot easier if the decision is made to break up or sell parts of the company.

I suspect it's as simple as the Liberty are a distraction which adds nothing to the bottom line, and thus it is better not to own them than to own them.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/25/17 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.


There's no "red ink." MSG makes lots of money. But MSG Corp is a publicly traded corporation and there is a strong feeling among some significant institutional investors that it is significantly undervalued and that the sum of the parts is worth more than the current whole. There is considerable pressure on the company to break up the entertainment, sports, and real estate assets and to spin them off or sell them, in order to maximize value.

When pressure like that is brought to bear, one of the first reactions of management is typically to shed tangential and underperforming assets. It makes the balance sheet look better, and it makes it a lot easier if the decision is made to break up or sell parts of the company.

I suspect it's as simple as the Liberty are a distraction which adds nothing to the bottom line, and thus it is better not to own them than to own them.


Makes sense ...

But still, regardless of why this is happening, where can the Liberty play in New York?



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/25/17 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I guess the reason the MSG scenario seems to make sense is the turmoil at MSG and the supposed red ink there. Otherwise, nothing much seems to have changed, though of course no one knows for sure why Dolan, or any owner of any business, might decide to sell.


There's no "red ink." MSG makes lots of money. But MSG Corp is a publicly traded corporation and there is a strong feeling among some significant institutional investors that it is significantly undervalued and that the sum of the parts is worth more than the current whole. There is considerable pressure on the company to break up the entertainment, sports, and real estate assets and to spin them off or sell them, in order to maximize value.

When pressure like that is brought to bear, one of the first reactions of management is typically to shed tangential and underperforming assets. It makes the balance sheet look better, and it makes it a lot easier if the decision is made to break up or sell parts of the company.

I suspect it's as simple as the Liberty are a distraction which adds nothing to the bottom line, and thus it is better not to own them than to own them.


Makes sense ...

But still, regardless of why this is happening, where can the Liberty play in New York?


I don't understand how you continue to ask. As I wrote near the beginning of this thread, this valid question has been discussed in detail in other threads which are easy enough to find. (The thread with the poll about the Barclay Center and the thread about MSG selling the Liberty.) Many of us have analyzed various alternatives and offered our opinions. Why don't you scroll through and read what's there?



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 1:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I did, of course ... but I wanted to separate that discussion from that four-page thread that covered many different topics.

No offense intended, and I also wondered if there had been any new developments.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:

where can the Liberty play in New York?


this valid question has been discussed in detail in other threads


I'll try to summarize the options discussed in the other threads with respect to this map of the five boroughs of New York City.



There are only two possible arenas within the five boroughs that are large enough for WNBA games:

-- MSG in Manhattan. It is the most presigious arena in the NYC area and probably the most expensive to rent. If the current owners of the Liberty, MSG Corp., can't afford to keep a team in MSG, it's been argued that no other owner is likely to be able to afford it.

-- Barclay's Center in Brooklyn. Presumably, this would be somewhat less expensive than MSG to rent. Brooklyn is connected to Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx by subway systems, so fans who live within those four boroughs would have relatively easy commuting access. However, fans from outside the four boroughs would have high costs of commuting in by car or surface trains, but that's the current situation for MSG.

To the west of NYC-Manhattan/Staten Island, across the Hudson River, there is the Prudential Center (the "Rock") in Newark, NJ, which is just to the right of the words "New Jersey" on the map. It can be reached by train from Manhattan. However, some Liberty games have been played there in the past and are reported to have been poorly attended. Newark is not an attractive destination for anything.

To the north of NYC-Bronx (~16 miles), in Westchester County, is an old facility called the Westchester County Center, built in 1924 and rehabbed in 1988, which can seat 5000 max. It can be reached from NYC by bus and/or trains and it has parking for cars. I've been there several times for high school games, and don't really think it has the capacity or cachet for a WNBA franchise. But it's a possibility, particularly because of its commuting access.

To the east of NYC-Queens (~16 miles), in Nassau County on Long Island, is the Nassau County Coliseum. This is a full-sized sports facility of 13,500 seats, which previously hosted pro basketball (Nets) and hockey (Islanders). It's easily accessible by car from western Queens and from further out east on Long Island by the millions of people who live in Nassau and Suffolk Counties. However, it's not easily reached by public transportation from the five boroughs of NYC. One ends up having to take buses or cabs from train stations. The argument has been made that NYC fans wouldn't attend this arena because of the lack of public transportation access. It's also been argued that there wouldn't be sufficient fan interest from among the millions of car owners on Long Island, because those people don't show up today for Liberty games at MSG. That may end up being true, but it doesn't follow logically to me. Just because Long Islanders don't want to commute into Manhattan doesn't mean they wouldn't support a team on Long Island. They've supported the Nets and Islanders in the past, but of course those are men's sports.

So, those seem to be the five possibilities, each with different issues relating to commuting ease, commuting expense, rental expense, and facility size.
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 3:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I suspect it is the building density, physical (water) barriers to expansion, and extraordinary real estate costs that result in NYC having fewer available arenas than a number of other large cities.

I wonder how much the Sky will benefit from moving downtown to the very handy new Wintrust Arena. Rosemont (Allstate Arena) is in the middle of nowhere and I expect has seriously impaired their attendance. Moving the Liberty to Nassau Colleseum would probably be comparable to playing at Rosemont.

If Sky attendance doesn't rise at this new home, that would be a bad sign to me.


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PostPosted: 11/26/17 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Personally, I don't think there is any other address for sports in "New York City" than Madison Square Garden, the most famous sports arena in the world.

Everything that is thought to be "NYC", by people all around the country and world, is in Manhattan. Skyscrapers, art, music, museums, restaurants, shopping, fashion, advertising, newspapers, Wall Street, law, medicine, theater, movies, night clubs, entertainment, parades, famous sporting events -- they are all, all, all in Manhattan. Of the millions of tourists who visit "New York City" every year, virtually none will go to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx or Staten Island. Those are just places where Ralph Kramden and Archie Bunker live.

Newark, Westchester County, Nassau County -- where are they? America?

If the WNBA wants the prestige, cachet, image, media attention, sponsor interest, and national recognition of being in "New York City", the only place to have all these factors is Manhattan. And, in Manhattan, the crown jewel and only jewel is Madison Square Garden.

If the Liberty can't stay in The Garden, they'll be no better off regarding these factors than moving to another city.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Personally, I don't think there is any other address for sports in "New York City" than Madison Square Garden, the most famous sports arena in the world.

Everything that is thought to be "NYC", by people all around the country and world, is in Manhattan. Skyscrapers, art, music, museums, restaurants, shopping, fashion, advertising, newspapers, Wall Street, law, medicine, theater, movies, night clubs, entertainment, parades, famous sporting events -- they are all, all, all in Manhattan. Of the millions of tourists who visit "New York City" every year, virtually none will go to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx or Staten Island. Those are just places where Ralph Kramden and Archie Bunker live.

Newark, Westchester County, Nassau County -- where are they? America?

If the WNBA wants the prestige, cachet, image, media attention, sponsor interest, and national recognition of being in "New York City", the only place to have all these factors is Manhattan. And, in Manhattan, the crown jewel and only jewel is Madison Square Garden.

If the Liberty can't stay in The Garden, they'll be no better off regarding these factors than moving to another city.


As a longtime resident of Manhattan who loves exploring the "outer boroughs," I find this analysis partially correct and partially overstated. For example, I've read many articles about the substantial increases in the number of tourists visiting Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Queens. (I don't know about Staten Island.) To say that "virtually none" of the millions of tourists go to the outer boroughs is dead wrong--though it's certainly true that many don't and won't. And I'm skeptical that all that many tourists go to see the Liberty at Madison Square Garden, so I don't find this issue relevant.

I believe that the Liberty could survive in the Barclay Center if the economics of the deal aren't prohibitive. New York City is changing and Brooklyn has changed profoundly in recent decades. Still, what Mr. MacGrady says about the prestige of Manhattan and Madison Square Garden is correct.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 5:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Personally, I don't think there is any other address for sports in "New York City" than Madison Square Garden, the most famous sports arena in the world.

Everything that is thought to be "NYC", by people all around the country and world, is in Manhattan. Skyscrapers, art, music, museums, restaurants, shopping, fashion, advertising, newspapers, Wall Street, law, medicine, theater, movies, night clubs, entertainment, parades, famous sporting events -- they are all, all, all in Manhattan. Of the millions of tourists who visit "New York City" every year, virtually none will go to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx or Staten Island. Those are just places where Ralph Kramden and Archie Bunker live.

Newark, Westchester County, Nassau County -- where are they? America?

If the WNBA wants the prestige, cachet, image, media attention, sponsor interest, and national recognition of being in "New York City", the only place to have all these factors is Manhattan. And, in Manhattan, the crown jewel and only jewel is Madison Square Garden.

If the Liberty can't stay in The Garden, they'll be no better off regarding these factors than moving to another city.


You haven't been to Brooklyn recently I guess. It's a boom town.

And I think a fair number of famous sporting events have taken place at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.


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PostPosted: 11/26/17 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Personally, I don't think there is any other address for sports in "New York City" than Madison Square Garden, the most famous sports arena in the world.

Everything that is thought to be "NYC", by people all around the country and world, is in Manhattan. Skyscrapers, art, music, museums, restaurants, shopping, fashion, advertising, newspapers, Wall Street, law, medicine, theater, movies, night clubs, entertainment, parades, famous sporting events -- they are all, all, all in Manhattan. Of the millions of tourists who visit "New York City" every year, virtually none will go to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx or Staten Island. Those are just places where Ralph Kramden and Archie Bunker live.

Newark, Westchester County, Nassau County -- where are they? America?

If the WNBA wants the prestige, cachet, image, media attention, sponsor interest, and national recognition of being in "New York City", the only place to have all these factors is Manhattan. And, in Manhattan, the crown jewel and only jewel is Madison Square Garden.

If the Liberty can't stay in The Garden, they'll be no better off regarding these factors than moving to another city.


You haven't been to Brooklyn recently I guess. It's a boom town.

And I think a fair number of famous sporting events have taken place at Yankee Stadium in the Bronx.


As a Mets' fan, I know that at least a few tourists went to Shea Stadium and have gone to Citi Field because they've gone with me. Smile

Of more relevance, the U.S. Open Tennis championships in Flushing Meadows Park, Queens, are a HUGE tourist event every year, bringing lots of money to New York City both directly (through the deal that David Dinkins negotiated while mayor) and indirectly (through all the money that those tourists spend on hotels, restaurants, etc.).



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 7:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Indeed, it's really only famous basketball, boxing, some of the hockey, some of the track & field, that are in Manhattan. NY's famous baseball, football, tennis, some of the hockey and some of the track are elsewhere, as is some of the NBA and major college basketball now at Barclay's.

New York's Super Bowl was held in New Jersey. That probably qualifies as a "famous sporting event".


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PostPosted: 11/26/17 8:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Indeed, it's really only famous basketball, boxing, some of the hockey, some of the track & field, that are in Manhattan. NY's famous baseball, football, tennis, some of the hockey and some of the track are elsewhere, as is some of the NBA and major college basketball now at Barclay's.

New York's Super Bowl was held in New Jersey. That probably qualifies as a "famous sporting event".


Yes to all of this. And one specific event is worth mentioning. The New York Marathon--which is quite famous and attracts lots of visitors from all over the world as runners and to watch runners--is in all five boroughs.

As someone who's lived in Manhattan for many decades and loves my borough, I nevertheless believe than traditional Manhattan-centric views of New York City need to be challenged. There are distinct advantages for the Liberty to be at Madison Square Garden and for the WNBA to have a team in Manhattan. No question. But dismissing the rest of our wonderful city is simply wrong.



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PostPosted: 11/26/17 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From the point of view of the league's status and prestige, it probably doesn't matter much where the Liberty play so long as the NY handle is still attached. Naturally, playing in a place where few fans show up would not help. Barclay's would probably be just fine. Prudential - probably not - first its in NJ, and second, the place didn't draw well as I recall. Really, based on what I'm reading Barclays seems like the only viable alternative.


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PostPosted: 11/26/17 9:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty drew 7,702; 6,779 & 7,189 during their three years at Newark, NJ. Ask anyone that attended games there(including myself) and their numbers were about half that with 50% as comps. It would only take me 30 minutes to get to Prudential Center, but it's pretty clear New Yorkers didn't make the trip. Maybe with a move to Barclays, they will.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 1:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I absolutely believe The Liberty would thrive in Brooklyn at the Barclay center. If the rent is cheaper, and we get some owners with deep pockets doing it for love and/or vanity and Barclay center gets on board seeing the fans from the Liberty on slow week nights or weekend matinee games that would not conflict with concerts or the like as a boon and could possibly even get those fans to return for other Barclay related events and the adjacent shopping district and community benefit from bringing those 5-10 thousand additional consumers it could be great for all interest.

I don't even think it is out of the question that some MSG/NBA related people (ex or current players) get involved in the new ownership group and they find a way to no longer be owned by MSG but still get to play there at a reduced rental rate playing in the least desirable or competitive dates for the arena.

I still think there has to be some out of the box location in the boroughs that may not be a traditional basket ball arena but could be converted in some way to host the Liberty games and accommodate 5-7 thousand fans.

I know in the other thread I brought up college arenas and they were pretty much ruled out but I feel like NYU could have some sort of venue that could house events that might be under utilized in the Summer, NYU has pretty much been snapping up real estate all over lower manhattan.

I can't remember if Hofstra, Brooklyn College, or Long Island University (I think that is what it is called and it is somewhere in Brooklyn) were discussed in that thread. Maybe they could use part or all of the Javits center it would take some creative re-configuration but it seems large enough (of course I don't know how financially viable it would be as an option or if it would be anything the owner of the javits center would be interested in but I'm just trying to come up with some creative solutions). Is there anything on City Island (I know Cirque de Sole and concerts take place there) that could work?


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PostPosted: 11/27/17 3:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To refine my conclusions:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.

2. If it's true that actual NYC borough residents are crucial for sufficient WNBA attendance anywhere in the much larger NYC tri-state area, then MSG and Barclay's are again the only two options, in the same order.

I am familiar with the geographic and sports territory. I was born, raised and lived on Staten Island, the forgotten borough, until I was 26. I have degrees from Columbia in the 60's and NYU in the 90's in Manhattan, and have worked in Manhattan in the 60's and this century, including teaching at the City University of New York.

Although I haven't been active with my MBB YouTube channel for two years, I spent many days this century traveling to girl's high school basketball games in high school and college gyms and private arenas all over Queens, Brooklyn, the Bronx, Manhattan, Westchester, Long Island, and Newark -- as well as Connecticut, Massachusetts and upstate New York.

There was no basketball venue in in my youth in any of those places, and there is none now, with the history, glamor, prestige, and legendary status of Madison Square Garden. When I played high school basketball, the greatest goal was to make the city playoffs, because you would then PLAY IN MADISON SQUARE GARDEN!!! It didn't even much matter whether you won or lost; the ultimate dream of every hooping kid was simply to be able to say, "I played in Madison Square Garden." It was perceived to be a lifetime badge of honor, and I'm sure that dream, that image, that honor still motivates local players like Tina Charles and Bria Hartley, who grew up with the same dreams.

Madison Square Garden is the Taj Mahal. The Barclay Center is nice new bank. The Nassau Coliseum is a suburban strip mall. The Westchester County Center is a barn. The Prudential Center is in a foreign country and I'd want a Seal Team Six cordon around me while I walked three blocks to the arena.
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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="GlennMacGrady"]T
1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.
/quote]

I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks for the geography lesson, Glenn -- much appreciated by this Left Coaster.

The issues seem to be the rent, and the potential lost opportunities for the arena, though maybe it's possible Dolan is selling the MSG dates along with the team. If so, it would be even more surprising that a buyer hasn't emerged, and in fact, very depressing.

So on the one hand, I'm hoping the Liberty stay at MSG, and on the other, I'm hoping that the main difficulty getting a buyer is finding a place to play.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I absolutely believe The Liberty would thrive in Brooklyn at the Barclay center. If the rent is cheaper, and we get some owners with deep pockets doing it for love and/or vanity and Barclay center gets on board seeing the fans from the Liberty on slow week nights or weekend matinee games that would not conflict with concerts or the like as a boon and could possibly even get those fans to return for other Barclay related events and the adjacent shopping district and community benefit from bringing those 5-10 thousand additional consumers it could be great for all interest.

I don't even think it is out of the question that some MSG/NBA related people (ex or current players) get involved in the new ownership group and they find a way to no longer be owned by MSG but still get to play there at a reduced rental rate playing in the least desirable or competitive dates for the arena.

I still think there has to be some out of the box location in the boroughs that may not be a traditional basket ball arena but could be converted in some way to host the Liberty games and accommodate 5-7 thousand fans.

I know in the other thread I brought up college arenas and they were pretty much ruled out but I feel like NYU could have some sort of venue that could house events that might be under utilized in the Summer, NYU has pretty much been snapping up real estate all over lower manhattan.

I can't remember if Hofstra, Brooklyn College, or Long Island University (I think that is what it is called and it is somewhere in Brooklyn) were discussed in that thread. Maybe they could use part or all of the Javits center it would take some creative re-configuration but it seems large enough (of course I don't know how financially viable it would be as an option or if it would be anything the owner of the javits center would be interested in but I'm just trying to come up with some creative solutions). Is there anything on City Island (I know Cirque de Sole and concerts take place there) that could work?


City Island? Wow! LOL. I love City Island, but have you ever gone there via public transportation? I don't own a car. From midtown Manhattan, it's a LONG, slow subway ride on the #6 train (a local) to the end in the Bronx. Then a bus ride from there. That's why I only go once a year. And there's nothing on that island that would come close to what the Liberty would need.

It's Madison Square Garden or the Barclay Center. Your "out of the box" speculations aren't realistic. NYU indeed has been expanding everywhere in New York City and around the world. But Coles Sports Center has been demolished, they're building a new sports center somewhere else, and their women's basketball team is currently playing home games in Hunter College's gym. Which would not be adequate for the Liberty, just like all the other college gyms you've mentioned.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.
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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think from a league perspective that sponsors are all that interested in where the New York franchise plays as long as there is a team in the largest media market. As others have noted, New York has no football or baseball team in Manhattan. Venue location is only an issue for fans attending the game. For that purpose, there is no place in New York that compares to MSG. You're talking about a recently renovated arena that sits on top of a transportation hub in the most centrally located borough of the city. Even if people live elsewhere, a lot of them work in Manhattan. And because MSG is located over Penn Station, there is no location in Manhattan itself that is anywhere near as convenient.

Barclay Center appears to be the next best choice, followed by Prudential Center, and then Nassau Coliseum. After that, you'd have to really downsize in capacity and forgo a large chunk of your potential attendance (40%-50%). If management is willing to do that, then there might be some creative options elsewhere in Manhattan. Dolan might let them use Radio City again. Or they could possibly reconfigure the 69th Regiment Armory or Pier 94 for basketball. Both spaces claim to seat up to 5,000 people, although I don't know if they could do it around a basketball court. Other than that, you'd have to get radical. Play outdoors in a stadium? Back to the National Tennis Center? We already mentioned playing on the Intrepid or some other floating vessel. I've always liked the way Cirque du Soleil can just come to town and set up a tent. Their largest tent seats 2600. Maybe you can find an engineer to figure out how to combine four tents to seat 10,000. Then, you'd have to find someplace where you could situate such a large footprint. The only one I can think of in Manhattan is Central Park. Squeezing it into the Sheep Meadow is a possibility, but it would definitely fit on the Great Lawn with lots of room to spare. Maybe we can bring back Simon & Garfunkel and use the Liberty as the opening act. Laughing I know a big tent in Central Park sounds wild, but if you're thinking outside the box, it's at least an idea with some basis in reality. Given the political leanings of this city, I can see the government approving 23 dates (max including playoffs) in Central Park to support the cause of women's basketball. They might even be able to use the tent for their own events, in which case you've got the basis for a partnership. Obviously, this is not something we can do for the coming season. It's more of a long-term idea.

In the short run, it's unavoidable that the Liberty are going to lose fans if they move from MSG. The question is whether you can replace them with new fans. It didn't happen in Newark, but maybe that was because everyone knew it was only a temporary arrangement. Perhaps New Jersey residents would have embraced the Liberty more if it was really their team. Also, maybe existing fans would have made more of an effort to get out there if they thought it was the Liberty's permanent home. I confess I had that "wait it out, they'll be back" attitude and never schlepped out to Newark. If they move somewhere permanently, I'll likely attend at least a couple of games each year. So, if the Liberty relocate to a place like Barclay Center, maybe you retain more fans than expected. And hopefully, you have better success acquiring new fans to replace those that you lost.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.


Yes, it's a "geographic fraud" that the Giants and Jets use the name New York. Yes, some people have criticized that "geographic fraud." And 99% of the world, even 99% of the sports world, doesn't care a bit. Just as they wouldn't care if the New York Liberty played outside the five boroughs but kept the New York name. The problem is that the venues outside the five boroughs are far less desirable for the franchise.



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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 11/27/17 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I don't think from a league perspective that sponsors are all that interested in where the New York franchise plays as long as there is a team in the largest media market. As others have noted, New York has no football or baseball team in Manhattan. Venue location is only an issue for fans attending the game. For that purpose, there is no place in New York that compares to MSG. You're talking about a recently renovated arena that sits on top of a transportation hub in the most centrally located borough of the city. Even if people live elsewhere, a lot of them work in Manhattan. And because MSG is located over Penn Station, there is no location in Manhattan itself that is anywhere near as convenient.

Barclay Center appears to be the next best choice, followed by Prudential Center, and then Nassau Coliseum. After that, you'd have to really downsize in capacity and forgo a large chunk of your potential attendance (40%-50%). If management is willing to do that, then there might be some creative options elsewhere in Manhattan. Dolan might let them use Radio City again. Or they could possibly reconfigure the 69th Regiment Armory or Pier 94 for basketball. Both spaces claim to seat up to 5,000 people, although I don't know if they could do it around a basketball court. Other than that, you'd have to get radical. Play outdoors in a stadium? Back to the National Tennis Center? We already mentioned playing on the Intrepid or some other floating vessel. I've always liked the way Cirque du Soleil can just come to town and set up a tent. Their largest tent seats 2600. Maybe you can find an engineer to figure out how to combine four tents to seat 10,000. Then, you'd have to find someplace where you could situate such a large footprint. The only one I can think of in Manhattan is Central Park. Squeezing it into the Sheep Meadow is a possibility, but it would definitely fit on the Great Lawn with lots of room to spare. Maybe we can bring back Simon & Garfunkel and use the Liberty as the opening act. Laughing I know a big tent in Central Park sounds wild, but if you're thinking outside the box, it's at least an idea with some basis in reality. Given the political leanings of this city, I can see the government approving 23 dates (max including playoffs) in Central Park to support the cause of women's basketball. They might even be able to use the tent for their own events, in which case you've got the basis for a partnership. Obviously, this is not something we can do for the coming season. It's more of a long-term idea.

In the short run, it's unavoidable that the Liberty are going to lose fans if they move from MSG. The question is whether you can replace them with new fans. It didn't happen in Newark, but maybe that was because everyone knew it was only a temporary arrangement. Perhaps New Jersey residents would have embraced the Liberty more if it was really their team. Also, maybe existing fans would have made more of an effort to get out there if they thought it was the Liberty's permanent home. I confess I had that "wait it out, they'll be back" attitude and never schlepped out to Newark. If they move somewhere permanently, I'll likely attend at least a couple of games each year. So, if the Liberty relocate to a place like Barclay Center, maybe you retain more fans than expected. And hopefully, you have better success acquiring new fans to replace those that you lost.


The Central Park Conservancy has a lot of influence. They have dramatically reduced the number of big events in the park. I believe the thought of 10,000 fans coming for 17 to 23 Liberty home games each summer would drive them berserk.

Physically, it's possible. Geographically, it's a good location. But I don't believe it could ever happen. Women's basketball isn't popular enough for the de Blasio administration or any city administration to take on a fight against the Conservancy and all its rich, well-connected donors.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 4:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.


Yes, it's a "geographic fraud" that the Giants and Jets use the name New York. Yes, some people have criticized that "geographic fraud." And 99% of the world, even 99% of the sports world, doesn't care a bit. Just as they wouldn't care if the New York Liberty played outside the five boroughs but kept the New York name. The problem is that the venues outside the five boroughs are far less desirable for the franchise.


Okay, Mr. Lamm, I think we are circling towards a creative common solution. The best alternatives in order are:

1. Stay in MSG.
2. If not possible, move to Barclay's.
3. If not possible, move out of state, but creatively in this way:

Dolan sells the franchise including all the players to the Connecticut Sun in return for no money but two other things. First, the Sun is allowed to call itself the New York Sun or the New York Liberty. In this way the WNBA retains a "New York" franchise (just like the Giants and Jets). The New York Liberty/Sun will become a powerhouse with 24 players to choose from, and win multiple WNBA titles. Second, the Liberty/Sun agrees to transport 5,000 fans for free by round trip helicopter from Manhattan to the Mohegan Sun every home game. Free buses would be more realistic, but much slower.
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PostPosted: 11/27/17 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clever idea, but MetLife Stadium is roughly 11 miles from Manhattan whereas the Mohegan Sun is 128 miles away. Even geographic fraud has its limits. Now, maybe if you move them to Bridgeport...

I remember when the Minnesota North Stars and the Cleveland Barons merged before the 1978-79 season, so there's a precedent for franchises combining. Too bad the new bulked-up North Stars still missed the playoffs. Smile



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tangentially, New Jersey is getting snippier about teams playing there but calling themselves New York- Red Bull had to go by NY/NJ, and the Riveters had to rebrand as the Metropolitan Riveters after the move to the Devils' practice rink.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Tangentially, New Jersey is getting snippier about teams playing there but calling themselves New York- Red Bull had to go by NY/NJ, and the Riveters had to rebrand as the Metropolitan Riveters after the move to the Devils' practice rink.


They started as the New York/New Jersey MetroStars, but it looks like the Harrison-New-Jersey-based team is called the New York Red Bulls now.


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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.


Right ive been waiting for Swin's words of encouragement to come to , but still nothing and its been about 2 weeks. She stated the next few weeks but DAMN how many weeks is a few SWIN ! Embarassed



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.


yeah its not lookin good, we would of heard something by now rumors, anything! it sucks!


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PostPosted: 11/28/17 8:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe it's dangerous to read into silence. It could mean disaster is ahead. It could mean that no sale is pending and Dolan will just keep the team for another season. It could mean that something terrific is in the works and will be announced tomorrow. Or after Jan. 1st. Why read some interpretation into silence based on no facts?



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 10:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 10:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

and the schedule needs to be released likely by February. Hopefully we hear something soon.



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?


I think that's probably right, but people are going much further in their speculations based on absolutely no facts. Just silence.



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?


I think that's probably right, but people are going much further in their speculations based on absolutely no facts. Just silence.


Silence is SOP for the W



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PostPosted: 11/29/17 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with Richyyy that the uncertainty should end fairly soon. Not only the schedule and free agency concerns, but the situation has to have a chilling effect on season ticket sales, and sponsorship. If the plan is to keep the Liberty operating for the 2018 season with or without a new owner, then MSG is hurting themselves by not making their intentions on that point clear. I read nothing in the original press release to suggest the team wouldn't keep going if they didn't find a buyer by any particular date but they need to make that more clear.


toad455



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PostPosted: 11/29/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dolan could simply move the team to Westchester and maybe play a few games at MSG if there's space on the calendar(camp days, play-offs).



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