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stever



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PostPosted: 10/27/17 10:39 pm    ::: First charges filed in Mueller investigation Reply Reply with quote

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/27/politics/first-charges-mueller-investigation/index.html

Quote:
The charges are still sealed under orders from a federal judge. Plans were prepared Friday for anyone charged to be taken into custody as soon as Monday, the sources said. It is unclear what the charges are.



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i'm going with Flynn as the first person to be indicted. we'll find out Monday. Smile



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
i'm going with Flynn as the first person to be indicted. we'll find out Monday. Smile


My guess is Marla Maples.


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PostPosted: 10/28/17 1:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/d7Uy0Uznw4E" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I so hope that Jr. and Kuchner are indicted.

Ultimately, it would be fabulous if the entire admin is indicted. From Trump all the way to the Pence's rabbits!!!!



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 4:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
I so hope that Jr. and Kuchner are indicted.

Ultimately, it would be fabulous if the entire admin is indicted. From Trump all the way to the Pence's rabbits!!!!


Well, I've said this so many times and been burned by my own naivete but I can't help myself. In THIS case, I'm sure, that Mueller and his team know exactly what they're doing.

Shocked

Okay, the sky didn't fall. But it's only been a minute so...

My guess is Manifort. Build the case slowly after he's flipped.

The ultimate of course would be the POTUS himself in an absolute slam dunk of a blockbuster indictment of some sort. It's possible, I think. Actually inevitable from what I can see but what do I know.

Short of that, yes, family members. Which might cause Trump to fire Mueller and then the shit would hit the fan Nixon style. But Trump might decide at that point that he's done anyway and might as well stand up for the kin folk.

But I would like to say that... geez... post something like that, Trump or his family being indicted, even the removal from office... God be careful what you wish for. Because something like that is honestly far less preferable than Trump learning to be a better president and making it through a first term and then losing in the next election. The circle of hell we all will enter if the POTUS, this POTUS, is indicted and removed from office will be something most people aren't properly imagining. Bloody hell. Forever.

And that's short and long term. But then just the short term. Looks like this. I think of Trump as being a variation on Reagan. Not smart enough to understand all the things going on all around him. Like in the White House basement and everywhere else. Trump is, however, a far more sinister character but also someone who scares the hell out of everyone even those around him. And they've been slow, mostly because of him and the incompetence of his people, in putting together all the machinery of governing. That wasn't the case with Reagan. Reagan's people were all super smart and came in working around the old man from day one.

But over time, the vermin that represents a certain ideology has been moving in and around the Trump administration. Their numbers are increasing and they're getting to work in doing exactly what an ideology set upon destroying government regulation and oversight would be up to. And their greatest champion is and will be Mike Pence. Ponder that as reality. Trump, however, as unacceptable as he is on so many levels, is at least unpredictable and vindictive when he's crossed or embarassed. Something happens that he doesn't like, and we've seen this over and over again now, Trump will say something like, "He's a good man." And that's kind of the end of that motherfucker.

All that ends with Mike Pence as president. Pence will be in on the meetings. They'll be able to get their ducks together and they'll be able to work with congress. The thing about Trump's administration so far that has been a saving grace is that it's not organized and the figure head, the coach, is a dumb ass. It's scary to think what would happen if Trump came in with some experience at high level elective office. Pence, who has been elected to both congress and a governorship, as POTUS, should really scare people. He , like Trump, has no business ever being in that position. But he will be sitting there. He might not be as inclined to get us into a hot war with North Korea but that's about the only bright spot I can think of in terms of his replacing Trump at the top spot. That is something though.


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PostPosted: 10/28/17 5:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mueller was working with the NY state attorney. I’m guessing Manafort.



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

why doesn't anyone think it's flynn? he was more and longer associated with the trump campaign. and he strikes me as a punk who'd cave quickly.

i'm also puzzled that the nyt hasn't presented/reported this story. wonder if it's just that they can't independently corroborate it, or it's something else - like they're not reporting it (yet) on some ethical or other grounds. very curious.



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
why doesn't anyone think it's flynn? he was more and longer associated with the trump campaign. and he strikes me as a punk who'd cave quickly.

i'm also puzzled that the nyt hasn't presented/reported this story. wonder if it's just that they can't independently corroborate it, or it's something else - like they're not reporting it (yet) on some ethical or other grounds. very curious.


guess you missed my post above. Smile plus Flynn might have a weak spot with his son, another little weasel.



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sambista



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 6:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
sambista wrote:
why doesn't anyone think it's flynn? he was more and longer associated with the trump campaign. and he strikes me as a punk who'd cave quickly.

i'm also puzzled that the nyt hasn't presented/reported this story. wonder if it's just that they can't independently corroborate it, or it's something else - like they're not reporting it (yet) on some ethical or other grounds. very curious.


guess you missed my post above. Smile plus Flynn might have a weak spot with his son, another little weasel.


i did miss it. sorry!



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 7:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="jammerbirdi"]
Ex-Ref wrote:

All that ends with Mike Pence as president. Pence will be in on the meetings. They'll be able to get their ducks together and they'll be able to work with congress. The thing about Trump's administration so far that has been a saving grace is that it's not organized and the figure head, the coach, is a dumb ass. It's scary to think what would happen if Trump came in with some experience at high level elective office. Pence, who has been elected to both congress and a governorship, as POTUS, should really scare people. He , like Trump, has no business ever being in that position. But he will be sitting there. He might not be as inclined to get us into a hot war with North Korea but that's about the only bright spot I can think of in terms of his replacing Trump at the top spot. That is something though.


I think that I was on of the first on here that that said that we didn't want Pence as POTUS even more than we didn't want the current asshole in the WH.

He scares me more than the asshole in the WH. One of my biggest fears is that the asshole in the WH will wait until year 3 of his term and then resign. Then we'd be looking at the possibility of 10 years of a Pence admin.
Shocked



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PostPosted: 10/28/17 9:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:

i'm also puzzled that the nyt hasn't presented/reported this story. wonder if it's just that they can't independently corroborate it, or it's something else - like they're not reporting it (yet) on some ethical or other grounds. very curious.


I've been wondering that too. It's very weird.


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PostPosted: 10/28/17 11:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
why doesn't anyone think it's flynn? he was more and longer associated with the trump campaign. and he strikes me as a punk who'd cave quickly.

i'm also puzzled that the nyt hasn't presented/reported this story. wonder if it's just that they can't independently corroborate it, or it's something else - like they're not reporting it (yet) on some ethical or other grounds. very curious.


That would be my second choice. But, I have the feeling Manafort is the one Mueller thinks will talk, given state charges may be able to be filed against him (meaning Trump can't Pardon).



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/29/17 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Buzzfeed has an article that says that the FBI has been looking into suspicious wire transfers back in 2012 and 2013 by companies linked to Manafort.


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PostPosted: 10/30/17 1:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CNN is reporting that Jared Kushner has left the country unannounced.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/29/politics/kushner-saudi-arabia-trip/index.html



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 6:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

this just in, at the top of the nyt site:

President Trump's ex-campaign chairman Paul Manafort and former business associate Rick Gates were told to surrender to federal authorities



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

seems a bit anticlimactic, but, if i'm speeding-reading correctly, the manafort charges have come now probably because of a focus on his tax returns of 2010 in particular, and the statute of limitations was about to run out.

or not. like i said, i'm speed-reading/listening.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CNN has someone named Sean Duffy on who is saying that the charges could all be "pre-campaign" and Alisyn Camerota is trying hard to get him to say that that will hurt Trump. But he will not go along with her suggestion that even if it is all pre-campaign that he "brought his mess to Trump".

Duffy thinks that with the leaking that has been going on, if there was something related to campaign-collusion with Russia, we would know about it.

Several CNN guests are talking about a possible "statute of limitations" deadline, which means they think the charges could be related to something with Manafort pre-campaign.

Rick Gates was both a part of the Trump campaign, and a former Manafort business associate, so his involvement doesn't narrow it down as to whether it is pre-campaign.


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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay my second guess was Amorosa and third was Gary Bussey.


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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lawyer just said we will know the charges before the end of the day. Chris Cuomo quickly says that "there could be more charges in the future!" in case they are pre-campaign charges. He also adds that "Rick Gates is now uniquely motivated to tell these guys what he knows". Someone earlier suggested that if the charges were pre-campaign, they could use them to cut a deal so that Manafort would also "tell them what he knows".

The hour turns and Poppy Harlow tells us to remember that "this is the man who was in full charge of President Trump's campaign for 5 months". It seems like these CNN anchors are not gonna be happy if this is pre-campaign stuff.

Someone just read the charges and I think it was all pre-campaign stuff. "Money laundering" was mentioned in one of 13 counts. CNN highlights that one charge was "conspiracy against the United States", which someone says "relates to tax offenses".

Some guest suggest that Gates is a problem for Trump since he stayed on longer - through the inauguration. Don't see that unless it can be shown that he made a confession one night to Trump and company about what he did back before he joined the campaign.

Jeff Toobin says that the Trump campaign is not mentioned in the indictment, but it mentions statements that Manafort made during the time he worked for the campaign.

Guess now saying that maybe Mueller is trying to get Manafort to flip, or plead guilty and have a cooperation deal. Although, if that turned out to be the case, Manafort would be working against the one person who could pardon him.




Last edited by tfan on 10/30/17 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
sambista



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 8:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i heard the charges on tv but see nothing online. the first sounded ominous, not having to do with taxes but about somehow acting against the interests of the united states.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 8:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

12 charges, apparently.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 8:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:


The hour turns and Poppy Harlow tells us to remember that "this is the man who was in full charge of President Trump's campaign for 5 months". It seems like these CNN anchors are not gonna be happy if this is pre-campaign stuff.

Someone just read the charges and I think it was all pre-campaign stuff. "Money laundering" was mentioned in one of 13 counts. CNN highlights that one charge was "conspiracy against the United States", which someone says "relates to tax offenses".


Well they should be happy because it matters not whether Mueller mined Manifort’s pre-campaign life for chargeable offenses in their effort to ultimately get to Trump. The idea is to wrap up Manifort tightly in a blanket woven of his own misdeeds, not anyone else’s. The seriousness of the charges against Manifort himself is more important than their having any connection to Trump at all. Whatever it takes to cause Manifort the most pain possible is the way to get him to give them what he knows on Trump.

Honestly, however, I don’t think it’s going to be much or damning. But that doesn’t matter either IMO because I think Mueller already has Trump and the family members. He’s just being methodical and making sure that everyone who should be punished, is indicted and put through the process. If nothing shakes out of Manifort that’s his hard luck. I think the fact that he was indicted at all, and especially for the pre-campaign crimes, means (to me) that Mueller has Trump.


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PostPosted: 10/30/17 8:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

the nyt page showing the actual charges can't even load!



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 9:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

count 1: conspiracy against the united states

looking at this as a lay person, it seems this is a blanket charge, so that if any of the other 11 counts are affirmed, count 1 must also be true.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 9:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cop a plea and spill all the tea, Paul.




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PostPosted: 10/30/17 10:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Cop a plea and spill all the tea, Paul.


Works for me, yall!



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Haha I'm not even going to say anything (yet). I'm just gonna kick back and enjoy the commentary.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/trump-campaign-adviser-george-papadopoulos-pleads-guilty-lying-n815596

And so it begins. Remember the whole line of "no evidence"? Well, this is that, and it is huge.



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 12:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/trump-campaign-adviser-george-papadopoulos-pleads-guilty-lying-n815596

And so it begins. Remember the whole line of "no evidence"? Well, this is that, and it is huge.



UUUUUUUUGGGGGEEE!



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ??? Somone on CNN later said that "collusion is not a crime, but conspiracy is".


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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ???


i don't think so, and i can't be as precise as i think is required to draw the line where a crime has occurred, but i think the legitimate crime would be if a foreign entity were involved in an american election. so if the trump campaign acquired "something" to use as a tool, as it were, in the election, that would be a crime. opposition research is done all the time, but the difference being investigated here, i think, is wheher any of it came from a foreign entity.

maybe a better explanation:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/12/what-is-collusion-215366



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PostPosted: 10/30/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Allen Dershowitz was just on Fox News and he made a distinction between "attempt at collusion" and collusion, but also said something that I have heard at least one other talking head say - collusion is not a federal crime ??? Somone on CNN later said that "collusion is not a crime, but conspiracy is".


Pretty much.

Treason is another federal crime.



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 2:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities. But the article is talking about the idea that The Trump Organization has hidden foreign-earned money from the IRS over the years.


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PostPosted: 10/31/17 3:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities.


Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course. But Trump should be very scared. Manafort being charged is all about flipping Manafort to get to Trump. They could have indicted Manafort for something he did 30 years ago as long as the statute of limitations wasn't a factor. It's just the fact that he's being personally prosecuted for serious crimes of any kind that would force Manafort's hand in trading damning information and testimony against Trump. I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort. No way Mueller is going down in history as having made someone like Manafort the ultimate target and scapegoat for the entire Russia investigation here in the era of Donald Trump.


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PostPosted: 10/31/17 5:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort.


this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.

but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.

this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see.



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 5:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why George Papadopoulos Is More Dangerous Than Paul Manafort



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort.


this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.

but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.

this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see.


Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't.


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PostPosted: 10/31/17 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
sambista wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort.


this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.

but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.

this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see.


Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't.


!!!



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 10:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

one trump-supporting pundit is trying to diminish papadopoulis by calling him a "coffee boy." hahahahahahahahahaha!



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
sambista wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
I actually think it would be very unlikely that Mueller would have indicted the guy if he didn't already know exactly, and I mean EXACTLY, what he wants and fully expects to get from Manafort.


this is the nut of it. the more you know about mueller's resume, the more you know this is true.

but the real topper was the timing of playing the papadopoulos card. that's the news that had trump caught off guard, had him "seething" yesterday, had him so glued to tv, according to one report, that he didn't show up to work till shortly after noon.

this 30-year-old neophyte could be the key to upending a whole bunch of people. trump? well, as he himself says, we'll see.


Who knows what will happen, but here is one take I saw: Throwing the book at Manafort on the same day you announce the plea deal with Papadopoulous is a message to everyone else showing what happens if you cooperate and what happens if you don't.


!!!


Exactly. And the prime targeted recipient of that message is Manafort himself.


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PostPosted: 10/31/17 11:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Something I hadn't thought about until right now over breakfast.

So who has Manafort been associated with for the last 20 or so years? Oligarchs, gangsters, and all the way up to authoritarian regimes and, of course, the Russians themselves, ex-KGB, and even possibly Putin.

This is a seriously lethal cast of characters. Stick a pin in that for a second.

So how and why did Donald Trump come to pick Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? Who put that name in the Donald's head? We know Trump and his family have their own connections with Russia. So even if he came up with it through just knowing the players that alone would be creepy enough.

But what if... it was something else. What if, and I'm not saying I believe this, but what if (did I say that enough already?) Manafort and the Russians were much closer than we already know they were? What if they basically placed him there in the campaign, at Trump's behest even? Or at whose exact fucking behest we just don't know at this point.

So there's a group of people over there in Russia who are thinking, we've got our own president of the united stets of ooh-merica now. We can not let this bag man Paul Manafort cooperate with the actual US government and bring down the Trump administration, which for all we know can be anything from a potential asset under development all the way up to the Kremlin West Wing.

So back to the lethality of certain groups and their methods etc. Manafort could be fearing for his life. And in THIS case, unlike Mafia prosecutions where in you put someone in witness protection and the mob can't find them because, well, their just the fucking mob from New Jersey and shit, in THIS case, you have a whole different level of intelligence gathering capabilities etc. So even if Manafort cooperates the world is set right, Manafort himself might end up one day ingesting a little polonium with his kale and wheat grass smoothie.

A little Vitamin P there, Mr. Pauly? Laughing

I need to go back to bed. Embarassed


Stonington_QB



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You know, some of you are willing to believe anything because you want it to be true. Not because it IS true. Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven. We are coming up on a year now of the complete denial of reality on behalf of a rapidly shrinking numbers of "believers." Those believers know who they are. But by all means, don't let me stop those of you who are wrapped up in conspiracy theories stop you from listening to whoever it is putting these misguided thoughts into your heads. This entire thread is going to be GREAT for some laughs in a few weeks (or months) from now.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 12:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven.


I will *shock* agree with you that there is some gun-jumping going on. But, what I quote above could not be further from the truth. Seriously, where do people even get things like this Shocked Shocked Shocked


Stonington_QB



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PostPosted: 10/31/17 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven.


I will *shock* agree with you that there is some gun-jumping going on. But, what I quote above could not be further from the truth. Seriously, where do people even get things like this Shocked Shocked Shocked

I mean, I can post plenty of links about the Fusion GPS dossier, and pick your source, but at this point is it really even necessary? Everyone knows there was no collusion to interfere with the elections on the President's behalf. Robert Mueller has already went public that he was even not under investigation. Whatever Paul Manafort did had absolutely nothing to do with the Trump campaign, and STILL people hang on to these hopes and dreams that somehow this is going to result in a conviction against President Trump. It won't. If Paul Manafort (or whoever) commited a crime, there will be a trial and a conviction. Nobody cares what happens to Paul Manafort. But it's funny that there are those of you who are hoping for some sort of a conviction based on no crimes committed whatsoever, while at the same time completely dismissing the real connections between Hillary and the Kremlin, simply because the same sources who are misleading them about Trump are also circling the wagons for Hillary. And why? Why continue to defend her? And yes, I know that Hillary's crimes are not the topic of this thread. And her crimes are not an excuse for other people's actions. But you all just hang on, and hope that there is something there when in fact there is not.

Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?

I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way.


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 14348
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PostPosted: 10/31/17 2:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
Like Trump and the nonexistent Russia connection that has already been thoroughly disproven.


I will *shock* agree with you that there is some gun-jumping going on. But, what I quote above could not be further from the truth. Seriously, where do people even get things like this Shocked Shocked Shocked

I mean, I can post plenty of links about the Fusion GPS dossier, and pick your source, but at this point is it really even necessary? Everyone knows there was no collusion to interfere with the elections on the President's behalf. Robert Mueller has already went public that he was even not under investigation. Whatever Paul Manafort did had absolutely nothing to do with the Trump campaign, and STILL people hang on to these hopes and dreams that somehow this is going to result in a conviction against President Trump. It won't. If Paul Manafort (or whoever) commited a crime, there will be a trial and a conviction. Nobody cares what happens to Paul Manafort. But it's funny that there are those of you who are hoping for some sort of a conviction based on no crimes committed whatsoever, while at the same time completely dismissing the real connections between Hillary and the Kremlin, simply because the same sources who are misleading them about Trump are also circling the wagons for Hillary. And why? Why continue to defend her? And yes, I know that Hillary's crimes are not the topic of this thread. And her crimes are not an excuse for other people's actions. But you all just hang on, and hope that there is something there when in fact there is not.

Some other people might still go down in this investigation. But what happens if they end up not being the people you WANT? The world has moved on from this fake dossier on Trump. Ask yourselves, when are you going to wake up and realize you've been the useful idiots rather than the enlightened ones you think you all are?

I mean, don't take my word for it. By all means, continue hoping for something to come out of this that results in imprisonment or even impeachment. I'm just saying, some of us are going to think it's really funny when it doesn't pan out that way.


That's what a thought. The MAGA media is a strange and very dangerous place.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 10/31/17 2:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seeing as though someone has already pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about not colluding with the Russians, and is now working with the investigation, saying that it has been "disproven" is categorically false.

But I am fine with you believing whatever it is you want to believe. Once Mueller has finished his investigation we can discuss how wrong you were.

If you want to listen to a great take on what is happening, listen to Fox News' own Shep Smith. He nailed it yesterday without putting on a tinfoil hat one way or another.



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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 10/31/17 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Poll: Vast majority of Trump voters say he should stay in office even if Russia collusion is proven

Quote:
Nearly 80 percent of Trump voters said they think the president should stay in office even if collusion is proven between his campaign and Russia, according to a survey released Tuesday, even while support among all voters for his impeachment hits a new high.

According to a new poll from the Democratic-leaning firm Public Policy Polling, 79 percent of people who voted for President Trump say he should remain even if collusion is proven, and 75 percent said the entire Russia story is "fake news."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/poll-vast-majority-of-trump-voters-say-he-should-stay-in-office-even-if-russia-collusion-is-proven/ar-AAuheEM?li=BBnb7Kz



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/31/17 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


So how and why did Donald Trump come to pick Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? Who put that name in the Donald's head? We know Trump and his family have their own connections with Russia. So even if he came up with it through just knowing the players that alone would be creepy enough.

But what if... it was something else. What if, and I'm not saying I believe this, but what if (did I say that enough already?) Manafort and the Russians were much closer than we already know they were? What if they basically placed him there in the campaign, at Trump's behest even? Or at whose exact fucking behest we just don't know at this point.


The New York Times has an article about how Manafort got hired by the campaign. He knew Trump's friend Tom Barrack and told Barrack he wanted to work for the campaign. Barrack helped to get him hired. But it wasn't a stretch hire - he applied for the position of Republican Party Convention Manager, a position he held in 1996 with Dole and 1988 with Bush. He was also involved in the Republican convention at lower positions for both Reagan and Ford. The Times shows the two-page memo that Manafort sent to the campaign applying for the position.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/31/17 6:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
tfan wrote:
Slate has an article titled "Trump Should Be Scared". That seemed way premature since Manafort was not indicted on campaign-related activities.


Well, again, that's not what matters to Mueller. Matters to CNN of course.


The non-Republicans on CNN are convinced that Trump is guilty of something with Russia, and making statements about what Mueller is doing behind the scenes and what he knows. Although their statements seem to be much more, if not totally, influenced by wishful thinking rather than inside knowledge. Personally, I would put more money on a charge against Trump being for The Trump Organization dealings with regard to tax evasion, since it appears that Mueller can make charges outside the scope of the investigation with regard to Russia.


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