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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 10/18/17 11:28 pm    ::: Disgusted.... Reply Reply with quote

....by Harvey Weinstein. (of course)

And J-Lo, etc. (go no further than the 1 min mark to see my point illustrated.

I bring this up because, quite by accident, I saw a show (ET?) whose lead story featured Oprah discussing the Weinstein fiasco, FOLLOWED by a clip of JLo's newest vid, featuring her in a slutty red sequined thing. "Disconnect" much??? There's an ENORMOUS Discrepant Event happening, imo, when Female Celebrities wish to rail against the evils of Sexual Predators, followed by Glorifying Females Emulating Sluts For Fame and Fortune.

The dance moves are EXPLICITELY inviting and encouraging the kind of behaviors that (other) women are claiming to have unwillingly forced upon them. Obviously, Harvey's victims were likely NOT doing such things to entice him, but LADEEEEZ......Don't forget that y'all use slutty sex to sell, and it has to be an extraordinarily mixed message being received by young men.

Yes. Disgust.



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Last edited by Howee on 10/19/17 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 1:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is a major difference between owning one's own sexuality on one's own terms and having someone else feel entitled to you.

Wearing a sexy outfit because someone wants to is about having agency and personal autonomy. Having someone like Harvey harassing or assaulting is the exact opposite.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Now this could be an interesting thread.


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 10/19/17 3:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sad



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Howee



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
There is a major difference between owning one's own sexuality on one's own terms and having someone else feel entitled to you.

Wearing a sexy outfit because someone wants to is about having agency and personal autonomy. Having someone like Harvey harassing or assaulting is the exact opposite.


Some truth, yes. But in that particular vid, JLo isn't *just* wearing a sexy outfit: she's behaving a very provocative, sexual way, TYPICALLY meant to attract sexual attention....WANTED OR OTHERWISE. I say, "Don't put it out there AND be shocked by what you get comin' atchya!"

I refer back to last night's show, featuring a prim Oprah discussing the empowerment of women followed by a JLo performance worthy of Sheena, Queen of the Slut People. There's a paradox.

Frankly, I don't care how ANY of them behave....it doesn't affect me at all. If women find their 'power' in that kind of performance, I don't care. But....where's the line? Which Female Star will bemuse us next by masturbating on stage? Is that okay, too? Cuz....if NOT....why? Yeah, they will CERTAINLY get attention. And can guys do that much? Why/Why not?

I don't really have the stomach for a complete moral debate on this topic. But I just find it to be dichotomous position: "We are not 'just' sex objects, and respect our dignity", vs. "I can be overtly slutty if it attracts attention/$$"

I'm very glad I don't have a 12-year-old who might want clarification.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 1:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Which Female Star will bemuse us next by masturbating on stage? Is that okay, too?

Why would it not be? If a woman is inviting people to watch her do that, it is her choice and thus her agency and autonomy. But that doesn't mean that I get to make advances upon her, or touch her, or feel entitled to anything more than she chooses to share. If what she is doing is inappropriate for the setting, then it should be dealt with, otherwise there is no issue.

For example, if a woman walks into a bar and chooses to take every single willing man and woman in there home to have sex with her...except one person...that one person has no entitlement to her body, to make aggressive moves on her, or to harass her in any way. Her actions do not say "you should treat me as an object", they say "I wanted to have sex with all those people, but I am not interested in you".



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 6:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

An amazing conversation could be had on the subject of beautiful women and girls and the cultural revolution that they have, with overwhelming success, pulled off in the last 15 or so years. Whether that conversation could be had here on Rebkell's or whether it will take another decade and a half for it to begin ANYWHERE is something I don't know. Maybe it's raging somewhere else already.

It's based on what has existed in reality from probably near the beginning of human existence on this planet and was always there teeming away throughout every subsequent cultural epoch and era. But something started to change with this modern mix of celebrity culture, a relentlessly sexy commercial fashion and beauty industry, the overt sexualization of women in popular music, etc. and then the advent of cell phone cameras and selfies over the last decade or so and now the kicker which is the motivations and rewards of social media.

I would add to that, the shear numbers of female human beings who now populate the landscape who meet or exceed the classic western beauty ideals which I won't list, we all know what they are purported to be, and, more than anything else, the REALIZATION, most probably from a very young age with most beautiful girls, that they are indeed beautiful and that that is their self-identity, and that their beauty and whatever wiles they can develop to make or take advantage of their beauty, CAN and could factor most prominently in their own life's toolbox of attributes and advantages, and therefore is something that should be explored, cultivated, worn with pride, and deployed when at all advantageous, etc. etc. etc.

In some ways beautiful women have overwhelmed feminism by undermining it at every turn. That's not to say that they don't also take and use what they can from the long history of feminist influences, but they are most definitely a contradiction to classic feminist dogma on matters such as beauty and sexuality and the downplaying of a women's appearance as it applies to the relationship between men and women. Worldwide, I would think they outnumber women who are politically aware enough to identify with or side with or promote verbally or in writing actual feminist principles by a very large margin.

But honestly, the better discussion isn't really about traditional political arguments like how the mass culture of beautiful girls and women might be contrasting with or undermining classic feminism etc. The better discussion, and one that could go on for pages and pages here, would be more of a focus on the psychology of beautiful women themselves, how they use their looks to navigate their lives, their numbers and what any of it says (okay this is political) about their own self-determination and agency, the manifestation and impact they have on male behavior and attitudes towards women, and on and on.

I would suggest one thing for starters. The perspective of beautiful women, even their very existence and validity as representing a path or outlook on their own lives and choices, is completely overshadowed and overlooked in the national conversation, where a currently fierce push back by progressive, politically correct, and feminist thinking still holds sway. Where words are used. lol. Where visuals are used, and signalling with body language and the communicative instrument which is the human face, and in the very potent areas of emotional manipulation or that which is based on sexuality, this aspect of feminine human nature and behavior rules, now more than ever.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First of all, JLO is hypnotic as a dancer. Watched that whole video. Laughing

Second, I think there's a huge difference between sexualizing and owning your sexuality. JLO (and others like her) are obviously trying to be sexy, and enjoying being sexy. That's fine. That doesn't mean anyone is entitled to them, or entitled to degrade them.

That being said, I was actually going to post something along the same lines. I recently saw the documentary "Sexy Baby." And it had an interesting premise..that technology has increased the exposure of sexuality to young people. Hard to argue against it when kids are watching "Orange Is The New Black" "Shameless" and porn anytime they want to. (And the porn is getting more graphic and violent). And pop culture has certainly increased sexualization.

Just look at Fifth Harmony's new music video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCmJC8y3Epk

Remember when we all thought the Spice Girls were too provocative?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJLIiF15wjQ

I'm generally a sex positive thinker, but I have to wonder if it's gone too far. There's a difference between a woman owning her sexuality, and a woman objectifying herself in an often performative way (for men).

Hell, even look at the message of these songs.
Spice Girls: "My girls come before you"
Fifth Harmony: "The guy I like loves a girl's ass when she's in heels. Look at me, I'm in heels." (And I like Fifth Harmony, and the song..but the difference is clear.)

At some point women taking ownership of their own bodies turned into a marketing ploy for the pleasure of men.

I'm not sure JLo is there, because I think dancing is inherently sensual. But I think our society is there.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All that dance crap sucks. I'm so grateful i was born early enough to beat the demise of pop music/rise of this sterile pornographic coreographic pretense. J-Blo, indeed.

That said, if she wants to act like a slut that's her right. Can"t grab that thing w/o an invite.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Beyonce was shaking her money maker on stage before JLo was a musical star and probably paved the way for the star to dance like that. When Beyonce first went solo she was on a morning show and I was amazed at how much booty shaking she and her backup dancers were doing, including booty-to-camera shots. I stumbled once onto this video on youtube where Beyonce for reasons I am not aware of, performed as just a sexy dancer for Usher:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IozMfEYI0JY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Pretty disappointed by the use of "slut" here, I have to say. Do people who use the word that way realise that they're part of the problem? Equating what someone is wearing or how they're dancing to assumptions/expectations about other aspects of them, and putting negative connotations onto it?

As for music videos these days, yeah, for me most of it went past sexy a long time ago. Maximum flesh has never been what does it for me personally. I find it semi-insulting. I also feel kinda bad for people who try too hard for attention on places like Instagram too, and that's far more commonplace than some singer being pushed out of their comfort zone by what's supposedly going to make them more popular. It's an arms race that is not healthy for either gender, IMO.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
I think Beyonce was shaking her money maker on stage before JLo was a musical star and probably paved the way for the star to dance like that. When Beyonce first went solo she was on a morning show and I was amazed at how much booty shaking she and her backup dancers were doing, including booty-to-camera shots. I stumbled once onto this video on youtube where Beyonce for reasons I am not aware of, performed as just a sexy dancer for Usher:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IozMfEYI0JY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Loved that performance too. (Love the two of them, though)

Beyonce and Usher went through a phase where they would show up at each other's performances as a guest star dancer. (Actually, Usher's in one of her music videos as a dancer.)

Again, IMO..dancing is simply sensual. This style of dancing has been around for decades (maybe longer).



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:


At some point women taking ownership of their own bodies turned into a marketing ploy for the pleasure of men.

It is all about who has the power. If the woman has it, and she has full agency of her choices, then it is being sex positive.

If someone or something external has the power, then there is a major problem.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 7:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:


Again, IMO..dancing is simply sensual. This style of dancing has been around for decades (maybe longer).


What is new I think, is the musical star dancing like that, versus just professional dancers doing it.


pilight



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Saying a woman dressed sexily is asking to be assaulted is the same as saying a man wearing an expensive suit is asking to be robbed.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:


At some point women taking ownership of their own bodies turned into a marketing ploy for the pleasure of men.

It is all about who has the power. If the woman has it, and she has full agency of her choices, then it is being sex positive.

If someone or something external has the power, then there is a major problem.


But sometimes we run into situations where women are able to make decisions over their own bodies, in full agency..but the end result is that they end up performing for the sexual pleasure of men.

They may have had the agency, and they may have had the power..but it's no longer for themselves.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
. They may have had the agency, and they may have had the power..but it's no longer for themselves.

But if it is no longer for themselves, the power has shifted to someone external: the viewer.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Saying a woman dressed sexily is asking to be assaulted is the same as saying a man wearing an expensive suit is asking to be robbed.


But you’re not saying that either statement is incorrect. Wink

Speaking literally, we know no woman is asking to be sexually assaulted and no man is asking to be robbed.

But is wearing sexy and maybe revealing clothing conducive to a sexual assault?

Is a fine suit worn by a young man alone into a ratty biker bar in the foothills of Appalachia conducive to him getting an asswhupping? Uh, I got news for y’all.

Look at what Donna Karan said. Who was the other one? Where does that thinking come from? Modesty in female dress to mitigate the lustful gaze of men. How about a couple millennia of religious teachings.

Male sexuality is a powerful force. I mean on a personal level. It’s an at times overwhelming biological need. And we see the mess that creates every single day in the world around us.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
. They may have had the agency, and they may have had the power..but it's no longer for themselves.

But if it is no longer for themselves, the power has shifted to someone external: the viewer.


They both have power.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
Saying a woman dressed sexily is asking to be assaulted is the same as saying a man wearing an expensive suit is asking to be robbed.


But you’re not saying that either statement is incorrect. Wink

Speaking literally, we know no woman is asking to be sexually assaulted and no man is asking to be robbed.

But is wearing sexy and maybe revealing clothing conducive to a sexual assault?

Is a fine suit worn by a young man alone into a ratty biker bar in the foothills of Appalachia conducive to him getting an asswhupping? Uh, I got news for y’all.

Look at what Donna Karan said. Who was the other one? Where does that thinking come from? Modesty in female dress to mitigate the lustful gaze of men. How about a couple millennia of religious teachings.

Male sexuality is a powerful force. I mean on a personal level. It’s an at times overwhelming biological need. And we see the mess that creates every single day in the world around us.


Cairo, where women only show their eyes, has the highest rate of sexual assault in the world.

The thought process there is, "they must be hiding something wonderful under there."

It doesn't matter what women do. As long as men feel entitled to women's bodies, we'll see a high rate of sexual assault.

Sex is an overwhelming biological need, but so is eating..and my dog won't take a bite out of the steak next to him until I tell him he can. I'd like to think men can control themselves better than dogs. Wink



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Last edited by mercfan3 on 10/19/17 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
. They may have had the agency, and they may have had the power..but it's no longer for themselves.

But if it is no longer for themselves, the power has shifted to someone external: the viewer.


They both have power.

Under merfan's scenario the power had shifted (the use of the past tense "had") and was now "no longer for themselves".

However, it is quite possible to have it be both for the woman and the viewer. In that circumstance, we have what we saw with JLo.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
Saying a woman dressed sexily is asking to be assaulted is the same as saying a man wearing an expensive suit is asking to be robbed.


But you’re not saying that either statement is incorrect. Wink

Speaking literally, we know no woman is asking to be sexually assaulted and no man is asking to be robbed.

But is wearing sexy and maybe revealing clothing conducive to a sexual assault?

Is a fine suit worn by a young man alone into a ratty biker bar in the foothills of Appalachia conducive to him getting an asswhupping? Uh, I got news for y’all.

Look at what Donna Karan said. Who was the other one? Where does that thinking come from? Modesty in female dress to mitigate the lustful gaze of men. How about a couple millennia of religious teachings.

Male sexuality is a powerful force. I mean on a personal level. It’s an at times overwhelming biological need. And we see the mess that creates every single day in the world around us.


Cairo, where women only show their eyes, has the highest rate of sexual assault in the world.

The thought process there is, "they must be hiding something wonderful under there."

It doesn't matter what women do. As long as men feel entitled to women's bodies, we'll see a high rate of sexual assault.

Sex is an overwhelming biological need, but so is eating..and my dog won't take a bite out of the steak next to him until I tell him he can. I'd like to think men can control themselves better than dogs. Wink


I certainly am not an advocate of sexual repression or religious conservatism. Do I think sexy revealing clothes can and do facilitate sexual assaults as a matter of fact? I do.

And you give men too much credit. Wink Men are dogs but smarter. But seriously, I have believed for decades now that feminism has for too long placed too much of an emphasis on the power and control aspect of men’s sexual aggression towards women and far too little attention on the biologically driven sexual needs of men. Men are biologically driven. The ability to control all of that biological sexual compulsion, which can be maddening at times and certainly enflamed by overt displays of feminine sexual attractiveness, is a dubious proposition even in first world societies.


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PostPosted: 10/19/17 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The idea that men cannot control themselves is total BS. We know they can because the vast majority of them do not rape or assault. Those that do, what the woman is wearing has nothing to do with it. It is really not hard to not be a fucking rapist. I don't care if they entered the room buck ass naked, the idea that it should lead to some uncontrollable need to have sex is silly. You know what places don't have a higher rate of rape than everywhere else? Nudist colonies.

No, rape is not about the clothes, it is about a society that blames everyone and everything except for the men for their actions.



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PostPosted: 10/19/17 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rape is the only crime on the books for which arguing that the temptation to commit it was too clear and obvious to resist is treated as a defense. For every other crime, we call that a confession.



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PostPosted: 10/20/17 2:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just want to reassert that I don't believe that anyone outside of a real rare nutcase would ever be 'asking' to be sexually assaulted. Nor am I suggesting that there is ANY legal or moral defense for raping a woman.

Thank you, pilight. Rolling Eyes

justintyme:

The idea that men cannot control themselves is total BS. We know they can because the vast majority of them do not rape or assault.

Rape and sexual assaults are endemic to human life on this planet. In this country we see it all occurring systemically in the military, on college campuses, and in Hollywood. So a seriously large number of men are not controlling themselves. That's the size and scope of the issue and the italics highlight my opinion, as a man, of the nature of the problem.

Those that do, what the woman is wearing has nothing to do with it. It is really not hard to not be a fucking rapist.

I think life is very complex. Any act has many triggers and happens because of many small coincidences and accidents and opportunities. I know, however, that beauty, i.e. physical attractiveness, clothing that is intended to be sexy and revealing, are all very effective in attracting the attentions of and exciting the intensions of men. Or boys. Now we get into a debate about language and does the language insinuate that victims are to blame. I don’t care about that. Victims of rape are never to blame. Are they ever attractive to rapists? Yes. Even more attractive than that? Yes, again. I believe in an open and free society and I relish the presence of beauty and fashion and provocative attire. I want those women to be able to dress any way they want and be safe. And I have never found it hard to not be a rapist. But if we were talking about my own daughters, I know that decisions they make, including how provocatively they present themselves to a dangerous world, can facilitate their finding themselves in trouble.

I see a lot of arguments here that are based in either the clinging to longstanding dogmatic sacred cow principles, or in an inability to separate what we’d all like to be the reality from the harsh actual realities of the world we inhabit along with all the beasts of the earth. To deny that the beasts of the earth can’t be moved or enticed to action by revealing soft flesh to their eyes is either ridiculously naive or an act of mass denial that has many ancillary motivations.

I don't care if they entered the room buck ass naked, the idea that it should lead to some uncontrollable need to have sex is silly.

It may be silly to you, but I don't know that you put much thought into that statement. I can tell you quite honestly, if a young woman of any one of the dozen or so that are my 'types' suddenly walked buck ass naked into a room where I was, I can assure you that there would be nothing silly about my needs at that point. Starting probably with oxygen. But would I rape her? Never in a million years.

If that woman was in trouble in any way whatsoever, then come on, she would get a blanket or a coat and I'd be doing whatever I needed to do to aid her in her moment of vulnerability.

She can pay me back later. Very Happy




Last edited by jammerbirdi on 10/20/17 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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