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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 10:13 am    ::: Zero punishment for UNC Reply Reply with quote

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/latest-unc-avoids-major-penalties-ncaa-academic-case-50461710

Like most people I was awaiting UNC receiving it's comeuppance, but all along there was a serious issues of why the bona fides of UNC academic coursework was a matter for the NCAA.

What hasn't gotten enough attention is how useless accreditation groups are in addressing serious issues at major universities. The failure really rests with UNC's accreditors.

The reality is, though, that nobody (other than fans of rival schools) rationally thinks that the overall academic quality of UNC is any less after this scandal than it was before. Not applicants, not students, not employers, not those handing out research grants, awards or prizes, not graduate or professional schools reviewing applications from it's grads. It was embarrassing, but in the big picture it just doesn't matter, and it wasn't really about sports.

And I'm not sure I want the NCAA deciding whether an African American Studies course, or a Ballroom Dancing Class, are "legitimate" or worthy of credit towards a degree. It's not why the NCAA exists.

It would be nice if universities cared and could be shamed into acting more responsibly, but this is hardly the only way they sell out to big time athletics, and it's not new.

Well at least everyone all exercised about how Sylvia Hatchell and WBB were being set up and unfairly treated can now relax.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The intriguing thing is whether a school could consciously use this outcome to set up some courses specifically designed to keep athletes eligible.

The NCAA allows schools to give preferential course selection and scheduling to athletes without running afoul of "extra benefits" rules. It's justified by the need for athletes to schedule around practices and games. So athletes have always gotten first crack at notorious gut classes and easy professors, which EVERY college has, and which every college student knows about.

So if you purposely set up some reeeeeeeealy easy, minimal effort, guaranteed high grade classes, and limited scholarship athlete registration to half of each class, opening the remaining spots to your normal seniority/gpa/lottery/stand-in-line registration process, you could keep eligible your most at risk athletes. They might never graduate, but who cares. They can play.

NCAA evidently says it's not an NCAA issue. Your accreditors won't do anything to your accreditation. If you're willing to take the public relations hit, and certainly there are schools that are if the result is success on the field or court, then why not?

Will anyone be that blatant about it and institutionalize it, or will it have to remain in the shadows so that schools can blame a few rogue professors and administrators? It looks like this outcome actually provides that choice.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If there was any doubt about the inherent corruption of the NCAA, this should remove it.

So UNC ran its athletes through bogus courses to keep them eligible, but that's OK, because some other students took the same courses.

Rationally, one would think that the bogus courses, regardless of who gets to take them, would result in the ineligibility of all such students for extracurricular activities -- oops, forgot that the only extracurricular activity that anyone cares about is athletics -- but not so. Who cares if they don't go to class? Clearly not the NCAA, which is just more proof that the "student" segment of the "student-athlete" is completely irrelevant in this billion-dollar industry.

As Art points out, any school can now set up bogus, keep-them-eligible classes and as long as other students can also take advantage (maybe children of boosters or other influential sorts), it's totally fine.

Which means, then, that the degree those athletes receive indicates as much about their academic achievement, and the value of their scholarship in terms of actual academic accomplishment, as does their on-field performance.

Sad and disgusting that UNC would protect its athletic department by relying on a technicality. If the administration had any concern for its academic reputation and the education it delivered to athletes, it would forfeit wins, fire coaches, and fire administrators. But UNC is no better than the NCAA, corrupt to the core.



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Disgusting, and shows exactly what the NCAA is worth.....NOTHING. Who paid them for this ruling, is what I want to know.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 11:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
If there was any doubt about the inherent corruption of the NCAA, this should remove it.

So UNC ran its athletes through bogus courses to keep them eligible, but that's OK, because some other students took the same courses.

Rationally, one would think that the bogus courses, regardless of who gets to take them, would result in the ineligibility of all such students for extracurricular activities -- oops, forgot that the only extracurricular activity that anyone cares about is athletics -- but not so. Who cares if they don't go to class? Clearly not the NCAA, which is just more proof that the "student" segment of the "student-athlete" is completely irrelevant in this billion-dollar industry.

As Art points out, any school can now set up bogus, keep-them-eligible classes and as long as other students can also take advantage (maybe children of boosters or other influential sorts), it's totally fine.

Which means, then, that the degree those athletes receive indicates as much about their academic achievement, and the value of their scholarship in terms of actual academic accomplishment, as does their on-field performance.

Sad and disgusting that UNC would protect its athletic department by relying on a technicality. If the administration had any concern for its academic reputation and the education it delivered to athletes, it would forfeit wins, fire coaches, and fire administrators. But UNC is no better than the NCAA, corrupt to the core.


Actually the silliness is manifest when compared to the forfeiture of wins imposed on Note Dame because five or six football players got help from one student tutor.

In the normal course of ND's own normal disciplinary process, a couple players were expelled. Others grades were revised downwards to Fs or D's but remained in school. Because those revised grades dropped their GPAs below ND's own standards for athletic eligibility ( not any NCAA rule, but ND's own rule), they were retroactively deemed to have played ineligible players and forfeited those games. ( Even though they were actually eligible at the time they played and were only later deemed ineligible because their grades were revised downwards.)

Be clear, ND wasn't disciplined because the tutor helped the players or because of cheating. They were sanctioned for playing retroactively ineligible players who were still eligible under NCAA rules but were ineligible under ND's own rules. If ND had simply expelled all of them rather than lowering the grades of some, no one would ever have been ineligible and there would have been no NCAA violation. But that's not what was called for under their code of conduct and not the penalty imposed by the standard student disciplinary system. So because ND discovered the violation, followed their disciplinary system to the letter, and self reported, they got dinged, but a school that created phony courses and fought the NCAA to the death, doesn't.

Now I don't think the NCAA should be judging academic bona fides. I think that's up to the University and accreditors. If the school says " this class meets our standards for academic credit," that should not be subject to NCAA review. I think if the school is willing to risk devaluing all of their degrees, then the marketplace will address it when employers won't hire their grads. Realistically, a school with the reputation of UNC runs zero risk of that ever happening even if they hand out bogus BAs to basketball players. But I think the completely inconsistant outcomes is what discredits the NCAA.


bballjunkie



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 11:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wow, I guess this will be the future😢


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:


Rationally, one would think that the bogus courses, regardless of who gets to take them, would result in the ineligibility of all such students for extracurricular activities -- oops, forgot that the only extracurricular activity that anyone cares about is athletics -- but not so.


The flaw in that argument is that no one ever deemed any of those classes "bogus."

If they did, there would be thousands of degrees that would have to be withdrawn because thousands of students and grads would be short of the required credits for graduation.

So those credits and grades all continue to count at UNC, for ALL students who took those classes.

If they still count towards graduation as entered in the students' transcripts, why should anyone be ineligible? If the A counts towards Frat Boy receiving his degree in pre med, magna cum laude, why shouldn't it count towards basketball player being eligible to play? (Frankly I consider the former far more significant than the latter.) Regardless of what we think, the dean and president and trustees of UNC say those are valid grades in valid courses. And they still say that. And UNC's academic accreditors accept that determination. And they still count towards graduation and class rank and honors. I don't see that it's the NCAA'S job to second guess that.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 10/13/17 12:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UNC student-athletes will be thrilled once someone reads this story to them.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
UNC student-athletes will be thrilled once someone reads this story to them.


Very Happy


ClayK



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
UNC student-athletes will be thrilled once someone reads this story to them.


Perfect ...

The fact that the UNC administration is doing nothing may be the most damning non-action of all. One expects nothing, or even less, from the NCAA, but the willingness of the UNC leadership to just roll over on this is stunning.

With a straight face, they claim these classes met the standards of the university ... amazing.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
pilight wrote:
UNC student-athletes will be thrilled once someone reads this story to them.


Perfect ...

The fact that the UNC administration is doing nothing may be the most damning non-action of all. One expects nothing, or even less, from the NCAA, but the willingness of the UNC leadership to just roll over on this is stunning.

With a straight face, they claim these classes met the standards of the university ... amazing.


I agree. The administration and trustees should be ashamed of themselves, as should their accreditation organization.

But the reality is that UNC is too big and its reputation too well established for this incident to have any real adverse impact. Nobody's going to refuse to hire or to admit into medical or law school UNC grads, and any effect on fundraising will be minimal to nonexistent.

I wouldn't want to be applying for a prestigious grad school or fellowship if I had one of those courses on my transcript (might be an awkward interview trying to explain why you took that class) but for most students and grads, it's a non-event.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thinking about this, and assuming the "we're not going to second guess the bona fides of courses actually listed by UNC in the school course catalog and available to all students" is valid, what happened to the other offenses for which they were charged?

Wouldn't you think that having athletic department people calling professors and having grades changed to maintain eligibility would be a violation worthy of punishment by itself? What happened to all of those type of things in the reports? That certainly wasn't a benefit available to all students, athlete and non-athlete.


blaase22



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Disgusting and yet they over punish the small schools
I hate this bs!


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PostPosted: 10/16/17 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I had a Twitter argument with whoever runs @hoopism after the UNC decision. It went something like this:

me: NCAA is toothless...worthless and corrupt, just like the NFL.
them: That's incorrect.
me: Why, please?
them:Wondering how you could liken a collection of privately-owned, all about profit-owned, mostly-Republican-owned teams to the NCAA.
them: No comparison. It's like comparing Microsoft to the Boys and Girls Club of America.
them: You asked, I answered.
them: the NCAA is non-profit, has a governing body, is research-based, represents all schools, and always seeks ways to get better.
me: And both, IMO, are susceptible to the hand with the most money in it.
me: that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. PS: My dad was on the athletic board at a P5 school.

Their last statement was about as stupid as any I've heard on the subject, IMNSHO. My father would probably agree if he were here to say anything on the subject. His years on the athletic board soured him considerably on the NCAA. I suppose that person has now muted me, although we've had many friendly exchanges prior to this one. Sad



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 10/16/17 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't recall what all the specific charges were against UNC and don't know how each was concluded, but I certainly don't think the NCAA should be in the business of determining the academic validity of any school's curriculum. That's the job of UNC and academic credentialing agencies.

I thought it was actually clever for UNC to embed most (all?) of their gut courses for jocks in an African-American studies program. If you criticize that, you're a racist.
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 10/17/17 7:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't recall what all the specific charges were against UNC and don't know how each was concluded, but I certainly don't think the NCAA should be in the business of determining the academic validity of any school's curriculum. That's the job of UNC and academic credentialing agencies.

I thought it was actually clever for UNC to embed most (all?) of their gut courses for jocks in an African-American studies program. If you criticize that, you're a racist.


Of course it's not racist nor exploitative to enroll African-American athletes in valueless classes so you can put them in a suit with the school's name on it and gain ticket sales and media contracts.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/17/17 9:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't recall what all the specific charges were against UNC and don't know how each was concluded, but I certainly don't think the NCAA should be in the business of determining the academic validity of any school's curriculum. That's the job of UNC and academic credentialing agencies.

I thought it was actually clever for UNC to embed most (all?) of their gut courses for jocks in an African-American studies program. If you criticize that, you're a racist.


Of course it's not racist nor exploitative to enroll African-American athletes in valueless classes so you can put them in a suit with the school's name on it and gain ticket sales and media contracts.


So are you telling us that no white athletes or non-athletes took these classes? Can you lay out your evidence for that?


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 10/17/17 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't recall what all the specific charges were against UNC and don't know how each was concluded, but I certainly don't think the NCAA should be in the business of determining the academic validity of any school's curriculum. That's the job of UNC and academic credentialing agencies.

I thought it was actually clever for UNC to embed most (all?) of their gut courses for jocks in an African-American studies program. If you criticize that, you're a racist.



Damn is there like a like button I can put on this Laughing Laughing


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 10/17/17 10:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I don't recall what all the specific charges were against UNC and don't know how each was concluded, but I certainly don't think the NCAA should be in the business of determining the academic validity of any school's curriculum. That's the job of UNC and academic credentialing agencies.

I thought it was actually clever for UNC to embed most (all?) of their gut courses for jocks in an African-American studies program. If you criticize that, you're a racist.


The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges put UNC on probation, which was the first time in over ten years that the accrediting organization put an institution on probation for academic fraud or academic integrity.

The Wainstain Report detailed that employees at the university knowingly steered about 1,500 athletes toward no-show courses that never met and were not taught by any faculty members, and in which the only work required was a single research paper that received a high grade no matter the content.

UNC athletes were 38% of irregular AFAM course enrollments, but only 4% of student body.

The message is this...an institution can create whatever fictitious classes with barely-there curricula, as long as there is at least a few non-athletes in the class to show that it is for the exclusive use by athletes.


willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 9:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
r

The message is this...an institution can create whatever fictitious classes with barely-there curricula, as long as there is at least a few non-athletes in the class to show that it is for the exclusive use by athletes.


Yes and that message is a biggie.I believe this portend the effective death toll of the NCAA in respect to any eligibility control. It creates a huge loop hole that I am sure will be taken advantage of.

I for one have felt that the higher educational system has long become goal displaced. The value of a degree has paralleled the declining value of the dollar. Actual education has taken a back seat to profit.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
r

The message is this...an institution can create whatever fictitious classes with barely-there curricula, as long as there is at least a few non-athletes in the class to show that it is for the exclusive use by athletes.


Yes and that message is a biggie.I believe this portend the effective death toll of the NCAA in respect to any eligibility control. It creates a huge loop hole that I am sure will be taken advantage of.


If only Louisville had procured strippers for non-athletes and funneled shoe payments to non-athletes...


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


UNC athletes were 38% of irregular AFAM course enrollments, but only 4% of student body.

The message is this...an institution can create whatever fictitious classes with barely-there curricula, as long as there is at least a few non-athletes in the class to show that it is for the exclusive use by athletes.


So now now "a few" = 62%?

I suppose if you're creative enough with math, and loose enough with language, you can claim anything.

So what's the cutoff where the NCAA assumes the accreditors' role of assessing a university's academic quality and integrity? 30% athletes? 10% athletes? Any department or class in which a single athlete is enrolled? Any department or class in which a single athlete might potentially enroll? And what qualifies the NCAA for this role? Should the NCAA publish more rules setting forth that in all college classes of all member institutions there must be at least two three hour exams per semester consisting of no fewer than six essay questions, plus at least one research paper of at least thirty pages in no larger than 11 pt New Times Roman with no larger than 1 inch margins?

And should the NCAA as part of its sanctions decision declare courses it considers academically unsuitable to be null and void just as it declares games retroactively forfeited and require the school to withdraw the degrees of any graduate who relied on those credits to meet the requirements for his or her degree? Is that what you want the NCAA's job to be now?

If the accrediting agency didn't do its job, then that's where the fault lies. If a UNC degree has become a joke unworthy of respect, then that's up to employers and graduate schools and fellowship boards to decide and to stop giving it unwarranted respect. But it doesn't make it the NCAA'S job.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:

I for one have felt that the higher educational system has long become goal displaced. The value of a degree has paralleled the declining value of the dollar. Actual education has taken a back seat to profit.


And the National Collegiate Athletic Association has precisely what role, if any, in addressing your vision of the collapse of the American educational system?


ClayK



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
willtalk wrote:

I for one have felt that the higher educational system has long become goal displaced. The value of a degree has paralleled the declining value of the dollar. Actual education has taken a back seat to profit.


And the National Collegiate Athletic Association has precisely what role, if any, in addressing your vision of the collapse of the American educational system?


If indeed it is important for "student-athletes" to provide the labor for intercollegiate athletics, then the NCAA is not the body to supervise the "student" portion. But by the same token, it seems that transgressions on the "student" side should also have some athletic penalty ... as it is, UNC and every other college with easy courses that athletes (among others) gravitate toward -- which would be just about every college -- will suffer no athletic consequences for an action designed to benefit the athletic program.

The accreditation process is also very slow, as I understand it, and very complex, so it's possible that these violations will not even count much in terms of accreditation, and even if they do make a difference, the impact on the teams and coaches involved will be minimal.

In short, the NCAA is obviously worthless when it comes to the academic side of the equation, but if that's important -- and I don't think it is to coaches and athletic departments, and most likely isn't to those higher in the food chain -- then another agency needs to have the power to punish such blatant fraud. (It shouldn't matter if other students take the courses; if athletes do, and remain eligible thereby, there should be athletic punishment that is immediate.)

Of course, we could just admit that intercollegiate athletics have little or nothing to do with academics and put scholarship athletes in a completely different category than regular students.

#eliminatehypocrisy



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 10:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As offended as I am by UNC's academic fraud, or even by USC allowing Matt Leinhart to finish his degree requirements with a single Ballroom Dancing class so that he could play another season of football, I don't think the NCAA has any qualifications or any role in assessing the bona fides of college classwork. It's about the last thing I want the NCAA butting into.

Honestly, I don't have a good answer of how to deal with the situation where USC or UNC presidents and trustees lack any shame and are are willing to accept and ignore the accompanying public criticism, where the institutions that should provide the check, such as the bodies responsible for accreditation, fail in their responsibility, and where the marketplace of employers and graduate school admissions boards deem it of no significance to the overall quality of the university's degrees. I just don't believe It's the NCAA's job to step into that void or that it is qualified to do so. The NCAA struggles to get the simple things directly involving athletics right. This is a lot more difficult and serious.

It's not like the issue is new. It's been 36 years since Dexter Manley received an Oklahoma State degree without ever learning to read. I haven't read that any of the UNC players graduated while illiterate.

My sense is that part of the problem is that these major universities are too big to fail. The financial and other ramifications of a loss of accreditation are so severe on so many people that the threat of such action is largely empty. You can put a school on probation, but the organizations are not about to actually withdraw accreditation from a major research institution. So the integrity of a school largely rests on the integrity and ego of the people in charge. And if they're willing to turn a blind eye and to weather the storm if exposed, there isn't much leverage.


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