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Sparks @ Lynx - 10/04/17
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Who will win this game?
Sparks
48%
 48%  [ 21 ]
Lynx
51%
 51%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 43

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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
I see, it's only bad coaching when Reeve loses. Never mind that she's dominated Agler when they've met in the playoffs. Never mind that Thibault got fired for losing that series to Indiana (that's how equal Sun management thought they were).



Reeve said she didn't get the job done last season.Words out of the mouth of Reeve...then throw in the 2012 finals against Indiana...It wasn't just one time with Reeve...it's happened multiple times on the biggest stage.


lynxmania



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 7:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
The Connecticut sun lost to a equally talented Indiana team in the playoffs.Thibualt wasn't outcoached,Indiana was just better.


So was Indiana and Connecticut equal or was Indiana a better team? If they were equal, wouldn't that mean Thibault got outcoached?


lynxmania



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 7:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:
I see, it's only bad coaching when Reeve loses. Never mind that she's dominated Agler when they've met in the playoffs. Never mind that Thibault got fired for losing that series to Indiana (that's how equal Sun management thought they were).



Reeve said she didn't get the job done last season.Words out of the mouth of Reeve...then throw in the 2012 finals against Indiana...It wasn't just one time with Reeve...it's happened multiple times on the biggest stage.


Good thing one of the coaches you have better than her hasn't lost multiple times on the biggest stage.


pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 8:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:
I see, it's only bad coaching when Reeve loses. Never mind that she's dominated Agler when they've met in the playoffs. Never mind that Thibault got fired for losing that series to Indiana (that's how equal Sun management thought they were).



Reeve said she didn't get the job done last season.Words out of the mouth of Reeve...then throw in the 2012 finals against Indiana...It wasn't just one time with Reeve...it's happened multiple times on the biggest stage.


Of course she said that. She's not going to throw her players under the bus.



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
1.She coughed up a championship. Something Agler


What about this latest series? The Sparks were the overwhelming favorite according to the Rebkell Series poll. The Sparks went from a 26 point lead in the first quarter of Game #1 to nearly choking that lead away, but they pulled out the one point win. That had to have taken the wind of the Lynx sails. They shouldn't have been able to recover. Then the Sparks proceed to gain a 2-1 advantage. How can Agler not finish the job at home? I would think some Sparks fans would call this a choke and aren't particularly happy about it.

zune69 wrote:
Thibault have never done


I do believe he went to the Finals once, but you're going to say he wasn't expected to win so he gets a pass. Not only does he get a pass, but he ranks #2 with you? Man, I can't figure out why.

zune69 wrote:
2. Reeve was outcoached in 3 out of 7 wnba finals


I disagree. Only outcoached in 2012. She didn't make the Finals in 2014, so which Finals that she won did she get outcoached? I'll give you a preemptive "give me a break" right now. If you win, you're not outcoached.

zune69 wrote:
3. Reeve has a history of panicking(Throwing jackets)


Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.

zune69 wrote:
picking up technical fouls during the playoffs.


Well, if technical fouls score against you in being the best, I know you couldn't have voted Taurasi as the best ever.

zune69 wrote:
Whalen was already a top 2 pg...Fowles was already a top 2 center...Augustus was already a 20 ppg scorer...Brunson was already a all-time great rebounder...Maya Moore was already projected to be an all-time great player


Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?

Aw, projections are so meaningful to you.... makes for easily twisted arguments.

Somebody had to put the pieces together and keep it working even though they were the #1 target in the league.

zune69 wrote:
Whalen,Fowles,and Brunson all played in the finals prior to playing in Minnesota.....Parker,Ogwumike,Beard,Toliver,etc...never played in the finals before Agler became the sparks head coach.


Now the Sparks are up to 2 and Toliver one. Woo hoo! The Sparks aren't stacked though, right? Not only are they stacked, they're younger than the Lynx, as people often point out.

zune69 wrote:
Assistant coach James Wade deserves a great amount of credit for the development of Fowles over the last year. I hear he's going to be working with Griner in Russia.This is why Griner will be my pick to win MVP next season.


Seems like you're dissing Jim Peterson now. He couldn't have done the job? You called Fowles the #2 center coming in, but apparently there was room for improvement as there is for all players. Gotcha.

I'm not sure I buy that Wade was solely responsible for improvement in Fowles. I actually give Maya more credit. But this goes to show it doesn't take much of a sample size of accomplishments for you to gush over a male coach.

zune69 wrote:
Bu,bu,but...Maya wins a championship every other year....so Reeve winning 4 out of 7 is a given....right?


Okay, that was pretty clever, but I think there's room for both to be the best.

zune69 wrote:
Because she gave 1 away......Had Reeve not given the 2012 championship away, she'd be my undisputed #1 greatest coach of all-time.


Definitely shows a high bar of expectations.

I actually think Reeve and Agler are a lot alike. Both don't like to rely on rookies. Agler now is like Reeve a few years ago. He runs his starters into the ground because they can take it.... but maybe they ultimately couldn't take it in this last series. Reeve has learned the fine art of minute management through necessity. Can Agler learn the same? If he does, maybe then he'll be as good as Reeve.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:

The Connecticut sun lost to a equally talented Indiana team in the playoffs.Thibualt wasn't outcoached,Indiana was just better.

Connecticut sun:
Charles
Lawson
Greene
Jones
Montgomery
Bass
Hightower

Indiana:
Catchings
Douglas
January
Zellous
Larkins
Sutton-Brown


Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 9:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1.Minny nearly blew a big lead in game 2...and yes,the sparks did choke in game 4.

2.As I mentioned earlier in this thread,Reeve had a great 2017 wnba finals.

3.I don't remember Thibault having a WTF moment in the playoffs.

4.Fowles demanded a trade after chicago reached the wnba finals.

5.The dramatic improvement in Fowles' game coincides with the hiring of James Wade.Lets see if Griner makes the same leap next season.Reeve also deserves her share oF the credit.

Shades wrote:
Can Agler learn the same? If he does, maybe then he'll be as good as Reeve.






pilight wrote:

Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.


My biggest problem with Reeve going back to the 2012 finals is that she failed to make the adjustment on Larkins.....Larkins was killing McWilliams on the offensive glass.Reeve had two legit options.Go Small.Put Brunson on Larkins,and Moore on Catchings or,play Peters.But Reeve did absolutely nothing.

I have no issue with people calling Reeve the greatest wnba coach of all-time.I just prefer Agler/Thibault over Reeve.


pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:

Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.


My biggest problem with Reeve going back to the 2012 finals is that she failed to make the adjustment on Larkins.....Larkins was killing McWilliams on the offensive glass.Reeve had two legit options.Go Small.Put Brunson on Larkins,and Moore on Catchings or,play Peters.But Reeve did absolutely nothing.

I have no issue with people calling Reeve the greatest wnba coach of all-time.I just prefer Agler/Thibault over Reeve.


You mean like T-Bone adjusted to stop Betty Lennox in 2004? Or maybe the way Agler made no adjustments at all in the finals just completed?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:

Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.


My biggest problem with Reeve going back to the 2012 finals is that she failed to make the adjustment on Larkins.....Larkins was killing McWilliams on the offensive glass.Reeve had two legit options.Go Small.Put Brunson on Larkins,and Moore on Catchings or,play Peters.But Reeve did absolutely nothing.

I have no issue with people calling Reeve the greatest wnba coach of all-time.I just prefer Agler/Thibault over Reeve.


You mean like T-Bone adjusted to stop Betty Lennox in 2004? Or maybe the way Agler made no adjustments at all in the finals just completed?


What adjustment should Agler have made in the 2017 finals ?


pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:

Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.


My biggest problem with Reeve going back to the 2012 finals is that she failed to make the adjustment on Larkins.....Larkins was killing McWilliams on the offensive glass.Reeve had two legit options.Go Small.Put Brunson on Larkins,and Moore on Catchings or,play Peters.But Reeve did absolutely nothing.

I have no issue with people calling Reeve the greatest wnba coach of all-time.I just prefer Agler/Thibault over Reeve.


You mean like T-Bone adjusted to stop Betty Lennox in 2004? Or maybe the way Agler made no adjustments at all in the finals just completed?


What adjustment should Agler have made in the 2017 finals ?


Look back upthread and you'll see several suggestions.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 4:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
pilight wrote:

Of course Douglas barely played in the deciding game, getting hurt in the first quarter. Odd that you consider that absence an indelible black mark on Reeve but don't consider it at all for Thibault.


My biggest problem with Reeve going back to the 2012 finals is that she failed to make the adjustment on Larkins.....Larkins was killing McWilliams on the offensive glass.Reeve had two legit options.Go Small.Put Brunson on Larkins,and Moore on Catchings or,play Peters.But Reeve did absolutely nothing.

I have no issue with people calling Reeve the greatest wnba coach of all-time.I just prefer Agler/Thibault over Reeve.


You mean like T-Bone adjusted to stop Betty Lennox in 2004? Or maybe the way Agler made no adjustments at all in the finals just completed?


What adjustment should Agler have made in the 2017 finals ?


Look back upthread and you'll see several suggestions.


Wiese finished the season shooting 6-22 (27%) from 3 pt range after starting 10-13.Wiese is also a bad defender.

J.Jones is a undersized foul prone center.She's no match for Fowles.

Gruda's very talented.But she commits to many unforced errors(Fouls,Turnovers,Poor shot selection).Gruda's an anomaly.She's tall,beautiful,and graceful.But her jump shot is cringeworthy.Gruda will make one good play,then two bad plays.It's frustrating to watch.

When exactly should Agler have played these players ?.....when LA was up 1-0 ?..when the series was tied at 1-1 ?....when they were up 2-1 with a chance to close minny out ?......in the deciding game 5 ?....Sims,Gray,and Beard were balling for most of the series.I don't understand the obsession with playing S.Wiese.The wnba finals is no place to be experimenting with rotations....The sparks had minny right where they wanted them.Up 2-1 with a chance to close them out at home.LA blew their opportunity.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 7:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tbh i think Reeve and Agler are pretty similar. They love their vets a little too much sometimes but often put a good defensive and offensive team on the floor. If i needed to choose a coach for my franchise i would go with one of them.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 8:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Gruda and Jackson-Jones aren't kids they were trying to develop. If they can't play a couple of minutes to keep the stars out of foul trouble, what's the point of having them on the roster? No match for Fowles? Five straight double-doubles and Finals MVP suggests that Ogwumike, Parker, and Lavender weren't much of a match for her either. Using the bench vets for a few minutes in the first half would keep you from having your second best player foul out early in the 4th quarter of the deciding game. That's bad coaching no matter how you slice it.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So Agler did a bad coaching job this series ?.......The monday morning quarterbacking on rebkell...just wow....where were these complaints about Agler after gm 1....gm 2...gm 3....gm 4.........and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 2:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 2:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".


It was more like 5 or 6.

1.The offensive foul on Parker in the 2nd qt when Maya flopped.

2.The Parker foul on Fowles in the 4th quarter.

3.The Foul on Nneka in the 3rd qt when she and fowles jumped for the ball,but they called the foul on Nneka.And this was after Fowles elbowed Nneka in the face.

4.The Foul on Nneka when she allegedly pushed Maya out of bounds.

5.The last foul on Nneka.The phantom foul on Brunson.

5 of the 9 fouls called on Parker/Ogwumike in game 5 were B.S....The refs called 3 fouls on Ogwumike the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter alone.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".


It was more like 5 or 6.

1.The offensive foul on Parker in the 2nd qt when Maya flopped.

2.The Parker foul on Fowles in the 4th quarter.

3.The Foul on Nneka in the 3rd qt when she and fowles jumped for the ball,but they called the foul on Nneka.And this was after Fowles elbowed Nneka in the face.

4.The Foul on Nneka when she allegedly pushed Maya out of bounds.

5.The last foul on Nneka.The phantom foul on Brunson.

5 of the 9 fouls called on Parker/Ogwumike in game 5 were B.S....The refs called 3 fouls on Ogwumike the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter alone.


Nneka got Brunson on the elbow for the final foul. Shouldn’t be a complaint on that one.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:

Nneka got Brunson on the elbow for the final foul. Shouldn’t be a complaint on that one.


Brunson got away with the same contact all game long......Nneka got elbowed in the face 3 or 4 times in this series alone.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".


It was more like 5 or 6.

1.The offensive foul on Parker in the 2nd qt when Maya flopped.

2.The Parker foul on Fowles in the 4th quarter.

3.The Foul on Nneka in the 3rd qt when she and fowles jumped for the ball,but they called the foul on Nneka.And this was after Fowles elbowed Nneka in the face.

4.The Foul on Nneka when she allegedly pushed Maya out of bounds.

5.The last foul on Nneka.The phantom foul on Brunson.

5 of the 9 fouls called on Parker/Ogwumike in game 5 were B.S....The refs called 3 fouls on Ogwumike the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter alone.

The fact that you think the last foul on Nneka was a "phantom call" tells me you are not objective in this. She tapped a jump shooter on the elbow. That is 100% a non-controversial call. It gets called 100% of the time when it is seen since any contact to the elbow, no matter how light, can majorly impact a shooter. Any non-biased person, who is familiar with the sport of basketball, knows that is a foul. Even Nneka knew that was a foul which is why she didn't freak out.

The 4th foul on Nneka and two of Parker's fouls were bad calls. They also got makeup calls on all three of those. But of course that becomes "most". I agrer that Agler did not do a bad job of coaching, but the idea that he or LA lost even in part because of the officiating is patently false.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

The fact that you think the last foul on Nneka was a "phantom call" tells me you are not objective in this. She tapped a jump shooter on the elbow. That is 100% a non-controversial call. It gets called 100% of the time when it is seen since any contact to the elbow, no matter how light, can majorly impact a shooter. Any non-biased person, who is familiar with the sport of basketball, knows that is a foul. Even Nneka knew that was a foul which is why she didn't freak out.

The 4th foul on Nneka and two of Parker's fouls were bad calls. They also got makeup calls on all three of those. But of course that becomes "most". I agrer that Agler did not do a bad job of coaching, but the idea that he or LA lost even in part because of the officiating is patently false.


If you're not going to call the blatant fouls on Moore/Fowles,don't call the ticky tack fouls on Nneka/Parker.The last foul on Brunson was BS.....Be consistent.




Last edited by zune69 on 10/08/17 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
adamj95 wrote:

Nneka got Brunson on the elbow for the final foul. Shouldn’t be a complaint on that one.


Brunson got away with the same contact all game long......Nneka got elbowed in the face 3 or 4 times in this series alone.

Give me the specific times please. I don't remember Brunson ever hitting a jump-shooter on the elbow. And if she did the refs surely didn't see it, because there is no "judgement" call involved in that. If they see it, they call it. And there was no way they could miss Nneka's foul based on where it happened.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
So Agler did a bad coaching job this series ?.......The monday morning quarterbacking on rebkell...just wow....where were these complaints about Agler after gm 1....gm 2...gm 3....gm 4.........and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Where were they? In the threads, if you care to look

I still don't like how Agler only uses 7 players

Agler didn't develop a 4th post, which clearly is needed when foul trouble happens

Agler should of taken her out of the game with 3 fouls

In fact if Agler keeps Aglering to the extent he did yesterday, then the longer the series goes, the more it favours the Lynx

that was Agler's fault for making Beard the inbounder

Agler - Please get her some minutes (and not just one)

And lots more. Indeed, criticisms of Agler riding his starters too hard go all the way back to Columbus. I know Seattle fans who think he ended Lauren Jackson's career prematurely by trying to load too many minutes onto her fragile knees.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
justintyme wrote:

The fact that you think the last foul on Nneka was a "phantom call" tells me you are not objective in this. She tapped a jump shooter on the elbow. That is 100% a non-controversial call. It gets called 100% of the time when it is seen since any contact to the elbow, no matter how light, can majorly impact a shooter. Any non-biased person, who is familiar with the sport of basketball, knows that is a foul. Even Nneka knew that was a foul which is why she didn't freak out.

The 4th foul on Nneka and two of Parker's fouls were bad calls. They also got makeup calls on all three of those. But of course that becomes "most". I agrer that Agler did not do a bad job of coaching, but the idea that he or LA lost even in part because of the officiating is patently false.


If you're not going to call the blatant fouls on Moore/Fowles,don't call the ticky tack fouls on Nneka/Parker.The last foul on Brunson was BS.

Hitting a jump shooter on the elbow is not "ticky-tack". That is a foul 100% of the time.

And Moore was getting called left and right on her fouls. And are you forgetting the phantom contact that Brunson got called for on Paker right after Parker's phantom call on Fowles? Or the questionable call on Maya on Sim's 3pt shot?

Confirmation bias is strong with this one.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
adamj95 wrote:

Nneka got Brunson on the elbow for the final foul. Shouldn’t be a complaint on that one.


Brunson got away with the same contact all game long......Nneka got elbowed in the face 3 or 4 times in this series alone.

Give me the specific times please. I don't remember Brunson ever hitting a jump-shooter on the elbow. And if she did the refs surely didn't see it, because there is no "judgement" call involved in that. If they see it, they call it. And there was no way they could miss Nneka's foul based on where it happened.


To be more specific,Brunson gets away with body contact all game long.But when Nneka does the same thing to Maya,she gets called for a cheap foul....Fowles and Briunson were literally jumping over the spark players backs to get offensive rebounds.Be consistent with the foul calls,that's all I'm saying.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of these complaints about Agler don't even make sense..

1.How many teams play their 4th post in the playoffs ?

2.Beard has been the inbounder in key late game situations all season long.


However,Agler keeping Parker in the game with 3 fouls was stupid.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Some of these complaints about Agler don't even make sense..

1.How many teams play their 4th post in the playoffs ?


The Lynx did. Pierson played in every game of the playoffs. The Liberty did in their one playoff game as well. So, basically just the coaches with more WNBA championships than Agler did so.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Some of these complaints about Agler don't even make sense..

1.How many teams play their 4th post in the playoffs ?


The Lynx did. Pierson played in every game of the playoffs. The Liberty did in their one playoff game as well. So, basically just the coaches with more WNBA championships than Agler did so.


Brunson played 16 minutes in gm 1,and 19 minutes in game 3.Pierson was a bad matchup.Howard got minutes due to the aforementioned circumstances.Minnesota was getting blown out in games 1 & 3....Reeve had no choice but to play Howard....Playing Howard/Jones wasn't exactly part of the plan.Most lynx fans wanted Reeve to stay small(play Maya at the 4)...This is why I give Reeve so much credit for sticking with Brunson.

Washington plays a big lineup.New York playing a 4th post is no surprise.

Lavender was getting wide open looks.At some point you would expect her to hit 4 or 5 in a row.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One think more- The lynx rely quite a bit on picks to get their players open looks. Fowls often sets great screens and picks, but early in the series she also often got away with a lot of moving ones. I know on specifically where she pushed Gray into the player Gray was defending and the fowl was called on Chelsea. Now for some reason the called those fouls on Maya in the game she was in fowl trouble but her picks were nothing compared to the ones Fowls got away with. Perhaps the fact that her name is Fowls gives her a free pass on those.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.

Or...

They know and understand the rules of basketball.

I'll admit bias plays a factor in judgement calls, but this wasn't one of those. In fact, at the moment it happened I was thinking "thank god that this isn't a questionable call". I figured it would be bad enough with 5 being a bad call, and was happy that 6 was clear as day...



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.


If you look at the second view it shows that if she did make contact it was not on the elbow but a pure brush on the side of the lower part of the upper arm. If she did indeed make contact it certainly wasn't enough to effect the shot. At worst it was but a slight brush and it certainly wasn't for sure.

Also Nneka's sister did not say " She got her on the elbow" she said " I think she might have gotten her a little bit on the elbow". Using the term MIGHT means it might have happened not that it actually did for sure. I also acknowledge that it might have happened but it was not on the elbow.

All that aside- Might or actually brushing the side of the lower upper arm it was still a bad call. At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot. Well it wasn't actually on the elbow and it was made after the stroke had already been completed. It might then still only be justified purely on a technicality and nothing more.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.


If you look at the second view it shows that if she did make contact it was not on the elbow but a pure brush on the side of the lower part of the upper arm. If she did indeed make contact it certainly wasn't enough to effect the shot. At worst it was but a slight brush and it certainly wasn't for sure.

Also Nneka's sister did not say " She got her on the elbow" she said " I think she might have gotten her a little bit on the elbow". Using the term MIGHT means it might have happened not that it actually did for sure. I also acknowledge that it might have happened but it was not on the elbow.

All that aside- Might or actually brushing the side of the lower upper arm it was still a bad call. At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot. Well it wasn't actually on the elbow and it was made after the stroke had already been completed. It might then still only be justified purely on a technicality and nothing more.


Well if you want to be technical she said "I think she got her a little bit on the elbow" Not might.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/5/16428214/nneka-ogwumike-fouled-out-game-5-wnba-finals-sparks-vs-lynx-referees

Even other people complaining about fouls called against her agree her 6th foul WAS a foul.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
[ At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot.

Again, you are treating this like it is a judgement call. Did it affect the shooting stroke, how much contact was it, etc...

None of this matters. All that matters is any time any contact is seen on a jump shooter's arm/elbow, and the defender isn't in legal defensive position, it is going to be called. 100% of the time. It is not a controversial foul. Focus on foul 5, that is a fair gripe. Foul 6 is going to be called if it is seen, and Nneka knew it, which is why there was no lastibg complaint.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?

Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals.The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 11:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?


Was Reeve gifted the #1 seed?

I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you? She got out-reffed, that's for sure. It's funny how Sparks fans want to complain and be one-sided about judgement calls this year, when there's picture proof that a non-judgment call was overlooked under 2 minutes that very likely changed the outcome of the game. The reffing in the WNBA is never going to be perfect, but I thought it was done as well as can be expected in this series. No memos saying mistakes were made were issued by the league office this year.

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals. The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.

Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you?


Reeve made a big time mistake in game 5.With LA up 62-59.Instead of going with Howard as she did in game 4(13 minutes),Reeve panicked,and decided to go small.She replaced Brunson with Moore.LA went on a 9-4 run lead by Parker who scored 6 of the 9 pts.LA pushed the lead from 62-59 to 71-63.

Multiple posters called Reeve out

wnbashockballa wrote:
game over just like i said reeve lost the offing game by taking brunson out


Shades wrote:
You waited too long for the timeout, Reeve. We're screwed


wnbashockballa wrote:

all in all like I typed earlier reeve lost the game with the perkin/brunson substitution that had gray go off for like 11 straight


5thmantheme wrote:
I'm a little surprised that RMonty and Howard didn't get more minutes. Reeve went with Moore on Parker again for a while. Those were specific gambles the coach made, idk if they were critical or not.

Congrats to the Sparks.


ChicagoAnnie wrote:
Reeve is lucky that bad call was in the final game, because her rant afterwards totally takes the focus off her subpar job making in-game adjustments.
Did the Lynx staff game plan around Nneka and forget Candace was still on the squad? Nneka goes to the bench in foul trouble, and game plan on defense falls apart?

Congrats big time to LA.




Last edited by zune69 on 10/09/17 4:15 am; edited 2 times in total
Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.

Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?


Delle Donne - 16 games played
Prince - 26 games played
Fowles - 20 games played
Vandersloot - 18 games played

Nah, that can't have anything to do with their record!


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Agler did the same thing last season when they won the championship. He always plays his vets too much. The only difference now is that they lost game 5 and that is why people are complaining more about his coaching. If they won then a lot of people wouldnt bring it up.



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
willtalk wrote:
[ At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot.

Again, you are treating this like it is a judgement call. Did it affect the shooting stroke, how much contact was it, etc...

None of this matters. All that matters is any time any contact is seen on a jump shooter's arm/elbow, and the defender isn't in legal defensive position, it is going to be called. 100% of the time. It is not a controversial foul. Focus on foul 5, that is a fair gripe. Foul 6 is going to be called if it is seen, and Nneka knew it, which is why there was no lastibg complaint.


Actually every foul that is not obvious is a judgment call. This was not really an obvious call. It is not certain that she even touched her at all . It appeared that way but was far from certain. So it is a judgement call. To imply that every call that a person appears to touch a persons arm always gets called is not correct. Players are constantly hitting and fouling the opposition with nor calls being made so 100 % is not really true. Referee's are given some leeway in respect to the certainty of calling fouls or not. That is why sometimes fouls are not called. A lot depends on the angle they are viewed from. Now I did say that technically if any contact was made it was a foul. The question i have is the level of certainty involved in such a call. Under the circumstances and level of contact that was not being called this call did not meet the requirements to justify it.

I did not bring up this issue but only responded to another poster who stated that video showed it to be a good call. It was to that post that I was responding too. It was not a good call because if contact was even made ( it was far from obvious ) it was incidental and certainly not consistent wit the standard set for the entire game.


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".


It was more like 5 or 6.

1.The offensive foul on Parker in the 2nd qt when Maya flopped.

2.The Parker foul on Fowles in the 4th quarter.

3.The Foul on Nneka in the 3rd qt when she and fowles jumped for the ball,but they called the foul on Nneka.And this was after Fowles elbowed Nneka in the face.

4.The Foul on Nneka when she allegedly pushed Maya out of bounds.

5.The last foul on Nneka.The phantom foul on Brunson.

5 of the 9 fouls called on Parker/Ogwumike in game 5 were B.S....The refs called 3 fouls on Ogwumike the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter alone.


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How about Lori Ann forces a trade to LA to expand her Ice Cream and spread it all over the Lynx !!! #Karma



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!

People keep saying that, but the proof is in the tape. She had one bad call on her (her 5th), and one that could be considered questionable (tied up with Fowles on the rebound).

The rest were not controversial, or questionable, or "suspicious". We can argue all day long if they missed calls on the other end, and it is possible they did. But when it comes specifically to her fouls, it wasn't ridiculous. Players will pick up a foul on a bad call all the time. In this game Maya, Parker, Brunson, and Fowles all picked up a foul when they shouldn't have. It is part of the game, and players should expect to potentially pick up at least one a game, because of the whole refs being human beings thing.

As for foul #6, those who think it wasn't a foul, or shouldn't have been called, either: 1) Are Sparks fans who are legitimately blinded by homerism, or 2) Don't actually understand the nuances of what constitutes a foul, and the differences in contact and how it is called when it is on a jump shooter's arm. (BTW, just for reference, similar call was made on the Lynx when they made slight contact with a jump shooter's arm--because it is called 100% of the time when it is seen.)



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Blame the refs ...

Really ridiculous. There are so many calls and non-calls in a game that of course there will be mistakes (just as players miss shots and coaches call plays that don't work).

Blame the refs ...

The fault lies not in the whistles but in ourselves -- I think Shakespeare said something like that.



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!

People keep saying that, but the proof is in the tape. She had one bad call on her (her 5th), and one that could be considered questionable (tied up with Fowles on the rebound).

The rest were not controversial, or questionable, or "suspicious". We can argue all day long if they missed calls on the other end, and it is possible they did. But when it comes specifically to her fouls, it wasn't ridiculous. Players will pick up a foul on a bad call all the time. In this game Maya, Parker, Brunson, and Fowles all picked up a foul when they shouldn't have. It is part of the game, and players should expect to potentially pick up at least one a game, because of the whole refs being human beings thing.

As for foul #6, those who think it wasn't a foul, or shouldn't have been called, either: 1) Are Sparks fans who are legitimately blinded by homerism, or 2) Don't actually understand the nuances of what constitutes a foul, and the differences in contact and how it is called when it is on a jump shooter's arm. (BTW, just for reference, similar call was made on the Lynx when they made slight contact with a jump shooter's arm--because it is called 100% of the time when it is seen.)



My point is towards the refs not the lynx or sparks.



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 3:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?


Was Reeve gifted the #1 seed?


She was gifted the most talent. She enters the finals as the favorite.

Quote:
I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you? She got out-reffed, that's for sure.


I guess it hinges on how much better - or equal - someone thinks the 2016 Lynx were than the 2016 Sparks talent wise.

Quote:

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals. The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.


Regular season 2014 Chicago record means nothing. Fowles played only 20 games (starting eighteen) and Delle Donne played 16 games (starting nine). You should pick one position - was 2014 Chicago Sky a "stacked team" as you previously stated, or "almost a lottery team" as you suggest above?

Quote:
Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?


What issue don't I have a viewpoint on?


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well I just watched game 5 on league pass. Of course I watched it on rv on Wed as well. That 6th foul on Nneka was legit. She commits a lot of fouls that she is not called for. Yes she also flops as does Maya and many others. It seems to be a part of the game. In game four and five the Lynx played better than the Sparks, period. I find it funny that as long as the Sparks win and the Lynx complain about the fouls the Sparks fans say nothing(most of them anyway) but when the Lynx win the Sparks fans are all over this board complaining about the fouls called against them. Both teams get bad calls against them and players on both teams flop! That is just the wat it is.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
Well I just watched game 5 on league pass. Of course I watched it on rv on Wed as well. That 6th foul on Nneka was legit. She commits a lot of fouls that she is not called for. Yes she also flops as does Maya and many others. It seems to be a part of the game. In game four and five the Lynx played better than the Sparks, period. I find it funny that as long as the Sparks win and the Lynx complain about the fouls the Sparks fans say nothing(most of them anyway) but when the Lynx win the Sparks fans are all over this board complaining about the fouls called against them. Both teams get bad calls against them and players on both teams flop! That is just the wat it is.


I for one did not make any mention of the Sparks losing because of officiating. My response was two fold. One was in respect to how legit the brush foul was on Nneka and the second was in response to a posters claim that the Lynx lost the championship last season because of a bad call.

In the latter case I pointed out that there were bad calls that went the other way influencing the out come of game 4 in the lynx favor. I suggested that that poster and others who bring it up should let it go. We all know that the officiating leaves much to be desired.

The first was one example directed purely towards officiating in general. My response was to a poster who claimed that that brush foul on Nneka was justified who provided a video to prove their point. I disagreed with her conclusion so I responded that technically perhaps it was a foul, but considering the way the rest of the game had been called it should not have been. Period. The last issue is purely and issue directed at the level and inconsistency of officiating using that as one example.

The point being that either the officiating is good or it is not. I don't believe that too many people on this site would say that it is good. So the intent of the poster needs to be clarified. Is the intent to complain that their team was cheated out of a championship or is it just a complaint against the level of officiating and it's negative impact on the game? What is obvious is that the officiating has had an undue influence both this season and last. We can spend all sorts of time "cherry picking" incidents to justify our own agenda's. Whether that should even be a focus of conversation is debatable. However the negative impact that poor officiating has on sports is not. It is a legitimate issue

Now there might be some people who believe that dysfunctional officiating should be accepted as all part of the game. If it were not correctable I might agree. But it could easily be improved so I do not.

The Problem in officiating in sports is because the sports themselves have evolved but the officiating has not. Officiating is still being run like a part time week end job and not the important career that it should be. The fact that a good official needs specific skills doesn't seem to be considered. I had made a previous post on this site in respect to players who have visual processing issues. Well an official role is all about visual processing and multitasking. What we have now in officiating is the best of a weak starting pool. Those that do not have excellent visual processing abilities/multitasking abilities should not even be in the initial pool. Right now, any Tom, Dick and Harriet can attempt to work their way up the officiating ladder. The beginning pool is flooded with individuals who should not even be in it. Certain skills can only be honed but if they are not there to begin with it's a lost cause. The inherent skills that are required to be a good official are basically ignored. I suppose this is another side effect of our delusive social environmentalist philosophy that believes we can make anyone into anything via education.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think I predicted early on in this thread that if the refs continued to let Ogwumike climb all over Fowles the Lynx would be in big trouble. Things were different in the final game as it seemed to me the refs calls were fair and balanced. If the gamblers in LA were sending a car with money for the refs it must have got stuck in traffic. Well played series by both teams and the best team won.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:

Regular season 2014 Chicago record means nothing. Fowles played only 20 games (starting eighteen) and Delle Donne played 16 games (starting nine). You should pick one position - was 2014 Chicago Sky a "stacked team" as you previously stated, or "almost a lottery team" as you suggest above?


Pretty sure it was just a jab at Delle Donne, as per usual Wink

hence "stacked team that wasn't going anywhere"


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