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stever



Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
.

Oh jeez. You sought to undermine my support of Sanders's bringing up MFA by suggesting (three times) that the senators who signed off on the bill were young and ambitious. I simply pointed out the actual ages of most of the senators and the average age of the entire 16.


You literally changed the entire argument to one about ages, ignoring the entirety of my post for a small detail. Just as you've repeatedly done here.

BTW:YOU named those senators (Gillibrand, Booker, Warren, Harris, and Franken). Those are the senators that matter on this issue. (And I know you know it, because you named them.) And they are all senators that are likely to be looking for a higher office, 3 of which are quite young. Then, when I point that out..you decide to talk about the others..

stop. straw-manning.

jammerbirdi wrote:


Dude I'm not answering you guys' questions. And I write what I believe clearly (mostly) and if I scramble a thought I certainly make up for it with a writing style that I myself would characterize as being, at least as it exists here, redundant. And it doesn't matter if you know what I believe. I'm not being examined by you. My motives or anything like that. I'm posting my political thoughts. I love to debate. I don't like when people turn their attention to me personally in an attempt to undermine my assertions. Seems like you... etc.


If you love to debate, then take the entirety of what people are saying instead of concentrating on small details and spinning it.

It's not about examining you, it's about figuring out what you are trying to say, because you continue to state that we are twisting what you are saying.

[quote="jammerbirdi"]
Oh now I see it’s “I don’t know whether you are...” in your first sentence below that I've bolded. What "segment of the American population" would that be that I MIGHT BE more sympathetic to than any other, mercfan3? Oh. Yes. Of course. White people. Woo-hoo, Everybody GET that?

Working Class White people. I know damn well your sympathies aren't with wealthy white people.

Again, you are taking this FAR TOO PERSONALLY then it intended to be. (And again, you are smart enough for me to think you are doing it on purpose.)

There is nothing wrong with being sympathetic towards the plights of the white working class. I've said it a million times at this point, these are my people too. I work with a lot of white working class kids. I see child abuse, parental opioid addiction, malnutrition..you name it. I KNOW what the problems are in these areas. I live it every fucking day.

That doesn't mean white privilege doesn't exist. (Even for this group)

And more importantly, these aren't forgotten Americans. They are glorified Americans. You said it yourself, "God, Flag,Family, Football." That's their culture. It's not all of America's culture, and yet..that's what we think of. I wonder why that is? This group of Americans have more political power than their numbers suggest they should. I wonder why?

So then we get this narrative that the DNC has forgotten these people, and THAT's why they abandoned the party. (Ignoring history, the Civil Rights Act, and the Southern Strategy) The very idea that simply because a political party is concentrating on some issues that don't effect WWC Americans means they abandoned them, is ridiculous. But yet we have this push to forget "identity politics" in favor of solely concentrating on WWC (as if this isn't an identity. Let's ask why again) issues.

So yes, they deserve sympathy too. I get that. I'd never debate that. What they don't deserve, is special treatment over others who are in similar or worse circumstances.



mercfan3 wrote:
I don't know whether you are simply more sympathetic towards this particular segment of the American population than any other group and their beliefs, or whether you agree with their beliefs, or whether you think that's irrelevant and your issue is in corporate money. From what you've written, it seems like it's all three..but please, correct me if I'm wrong. This is judgement free, too. Truly it is. I keep feeling like you post something, I argue against it, and then you go in another direction. What is the point you are trying to make if it's not the above?


jammerbirdi wrote:

No you GOT IT. Corporate money. You understand perfectly.


Okay, so then..instead of getting butt hurt over my viewpoint and the recognition that I, too, understood that politics is filled with corruption, why not address the point of what I was trying to say?

oh no, you'd rather mock. Because you love to debate, right?

And I forgot to add, the very idea that both parties are the same because of corporate money is a privileged position.

I can tell you I never hear it from the kids or their parents.

But you know what would probably make a difference in these people's lives? Quality child care and family planning services. Can't have birth control. Can't have an abortion. Can't have quality maternity care. Can't have quality child care. You want economic justice? A good place to start is in policies like these..with some detail, proper planning, and an ability to pass a type of legislation to help people.

Policies that would significantly help the WWC. Only one party supports them. Tell me again how they are both the same. #PoliticsAreAboutPolicies

So, if you like debate so much. Tell me why I'm wrong.

If you're just going to slice a quote, twist my words, get defensive, and go on a tangent again, I'm done.



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8152
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PostPosted: 10/08/17 11:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cowboys owner Jerry Jones: Any player who is 'disrespectful to the flag' won't be allowed to play

Quote:
"You understand? If we are disrespecting the flag then we won't play. Period."

"We're going to respect the flag, and I'm going to create the perception of it. And we have."

". . . there is no question in my mind that the National Football League and the Dallas Cowboys are going to stand up for the flag. Just so we're clear."

"The league in my mind should absolutely take the rules we've got on the books and make sure that we do not give the perception that we're disrespecting the flag."


Dolphins owner Steve Ross now wants players to stand for anthem, coach Adam Gase makes it a rule

Quote:
Ross . . . said President Donald Trump has changed the focus of anthem conversation from social injustice issues to patriotism, so it’s better now for the players to stand.

“He’s changed that whole paradigm of what protest is . . . .”

“And I think it’s incumbent upon the players today, because of how the public is looking at it, to really stand and really salute the flag.”
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
The funny part about it is that in 30 years all the people refusing to support Kaep and the kneeling players are going to be remembered as total assholes and complete embarrassments, much like how people standing in the way of the civil rights movement are remembered, like how the people who treated Tommie Smith and John Carlos are remembered.

All these things that seem so important to people today won't mean anything to future generations who will find it reprehensible.

Not to mention, it lets the NFL off the hook. The fall in ratings being tied to the protests makes the NFL look good, like they are taking a moral stand at the risk of their business. Instead of focusing on the major factors that have been around for years and are more likely to have long term effects than flashpan overreaction, things like head injuries, the length of the game and too many lengthy commercial breaks, the move to streaming services, the way the league is handling player discipline in an almost arbitrary way, and the dilution of their product by having nearly unwatchable games on National TV every Thursday, the narrative puts them on the moral highground and as time passes that is what people will remember.


Let me do this in reverse. I agree with you about the quality of the games right now. I've never seen the NFL product look so shabby. I think teams are holding out starters more in the preseason than in years past and the result is something that isn't quite soup yet in the early games. But we're now a solid month into the season and things still look very off. Another theory I've come up with is the players themselves are apprehensive about the brain injuries. Watching the game(s) today I thought I noticed a lot of defenders hanging on the legs of runners and receivers and twisting them to the ground. When we played it was tackle football. But we were already being implored by our coaches to hit people. Right now I'm not sure what exactly is going on but this isn't a sports product that is going to draw and hold fans to their television sets. I'm sure as the season goes on many of the kinks will be worked out and the intensity of the playoff races (we don't call them that in football, do we?) will correct the optical dissonance that seems to be hurting the viewing experience right now. We will see.

That's not to say that there isn't a scattershot protest/boycott effect at work on the league as well. And that was before the VP, at the behest at Trump, did what he did today and that TWEET! Shocked That was nothing less than a very well crafted declaration of war against the NFL, the premier sports league in the US, by the President of the United States. Pence's tweet was a clear perfectly toned and articulated marching order that says, (fill in YOUR NAME HERE patriotic Americans) will not dignify any event, etc. So I think we're now entering a new stage of damage to the NFL.

justintyme wrote:
The funny part about it is that in 30 years all the people refusing to support Kaep and the kneeling players are going to be remembered as total assholes and complete embarrassments, much like how people standing in the way of the civil rights movement are remembered, like how the people who treated Tommie Smith and John Carlos are remembered.


Look, I want to try to dial back the personal stuff and attack the ideas. So I won't be specific about anyone, and there's no need to really. Because the fear of being on the wrong side of history is certainly what's driving so many people in this country to go full bore in attacking those who, as you put it yourself, refuse to support Kaep and the players. The language there speaks volume. Refuse to support Kaep and the players or you will be known as an asshole and an embarrassment?

It's a reputation threat. And it's based on this idea that generations from now there's going to be some kind of an enlightened version of America (as we might be to the 1960s) to look back from and judge people who refuse to support Kaep and the players. The future is unknowable. The America we will be three decades from now is unknowable. Hopefully we will have righted the ship on the issue of racial strife. But my opinion is that there is nothing to suggest that a better and more orderly country awaits future generations. Certainly nothing to suggest that there will not still be a massive black underclass that will not reflect in the slightest that any effective social remedies have ever been applied. So there will still be police. There will still be black crime that the police are tasked by society to both mitigate and/or isolate. Police methods might be such that innocent or unarmed people aren't killed as they sometimes are today. But a cop like the one who shot that guy in the back in North Carolina (?) who was running away from him... those guys are always going to find their way into police uniforms.

The fixes for all of this, actually have nothing to do with any of it. It's education. It's training people to learn a trade. It's revitalizing entire communities and economies. It's giving people hope and a future.

The rest of this stuff is just a bunch of bullshit.

Like Henry Louis Gates and others, when they still would admit it, I expected far more from Barack Obama in this area. But this IS something that the great black athletes of this era could effect change on. I believe that. I don't see that happening on my TV yet. But I believe it could happen. Lebron and a half dozen other sports stars, some luminaries from the world of we're so fucking rich we don't know what to do with our money. Demand that we change the direction of black life for the poor in this country through education, job-training, fucking feeding kids, parent training, etc.

And get this entire class that has been created in the last twenty years, the super wealthy that come out of tech and the incredibly rich of the entertainment and media industries, and get those people to give up billions until they are bleeding to create and change the horizons of poor black America. In the face of an intractable problem that threatens and diminishes all of us, how many fucking billions does a single person or family need? SHAME THEM! Call THEM out, not the police, which is, at the end of the day, bottom line, a blunt violent ending, mass incarceration or one death at a time, that marks the failure of an entire country on this issue.

Everything else is bullshit. So if you're someone like me who dreams of these big fundamental efforts to fix centuries of injustice, decades old problems, all the way up to the modern verification today of our failures in the form of videos capturing rampant criminality as well as police idiocy or misconduct occasionally snuffing out the lives of innocents, then any ill-advised protest movement, Black Live Matter based on Michael Brown's ultimately justified shooting, or Kaep choosing the bloody national anthem, post 9/11, to sit or kneel, etc. any of those kinds of efforts push the idea of taking on root causes of society's ills further and further out of the realm of possibly happening in any of our lifetimes.

Tommie Smith and John Carlos were two more of my heroes in the 1960s. That was in real time. I didn't need social media to tell me they were right in what they did or to get on board or I will be judged later, etc. I was with those guys.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
I'm done.


Me too.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8152
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 3:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

‘Monday Night Football’ Ratings Hits Season Low

ESPN Suspends Jemele Hill Over New Tweets On Dallas Cowboys Owner Jerry Jones Threat To Bench Players

Stephen A. Smith: Trump Is Winning the National Anthem Protest Debate

Roger Goodell tells NFL owners ‘everyone should stand for the national anthem’

Quote:
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell on Tuesday wrote a letter to all 32 league owners regarding the protests that have taken place during the national anthem . . . .

. . . Goodell wrote that the “current dispute over the National Anthem is threatening to erode the unifying power of our game, and is now dividing us, and our players, from many fans across the country.”

“Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the National Anthem,” Goodell wrote. “It is an important moment in our game,” Goodell wrote. “We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us.


MNFLGA
hyperetic



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 5344
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PostPosted: 10/11/17 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If the deaths of all those unarmed people of color didn't move hyper-patriots, nothing will. Whether they stop protesting during the paid patriotic portion of the game or not. Say all the protests stopped tomorrow. How many hyper-patriots would then turn their considerable attention and influence to doing something about institutional racism, general racism, police brutality, unarmed killing of Black and other PoC citizens, etc.?
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 10/11/17 3:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, hypothetical:

Say the league tells players they need to stand for the anthem, but as a trade off they will allow any player who wishes to wear a large "Black Lives Matter" patch on their uniform and will allow the players to, after the anthem is over, link arms at center field in solidarity with each other and people of color in America.

Do we honestly feel the anti-kneeling crowd would be okay because it doesn't involve the flag or anthem anymore, or would they just switch to another compaint about how it is being done?



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
‘Monday Night Football’ Ratings Hits Season Low

ESPN Suspends Jemele Hill Over New Tweets On Dallas Cowboys Owner Jerry Jones Threat To Bench Players

Stephen A. Smith: Trump Is Winning the National Anthem Protest Debate

Roger Goodell tells NFL owners ‘everyone should stand for the national anthem’

Quote:
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell on Tuesday wrote a letter to all 32 league owners regarding the protests that have taken place during the national anthem . . . .

. . . Goodell wrote that the “current dispute over the National Anthem is threatening to erode the unifying power of our game, and is now dividing us, and our players, from many fans across the country.”

“Like many of our fans, we believe that everyone should stand for the National Anthem,” Goodell wrote. “It is an important moment in our game,” Goodell wrote. “We want to honor our flag and our country, and our fans expect that of us.


MNFLGA




Hey swamp drain folks- how much did Pence's stunt cost US taxpayers?

Around $200K.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/09/pence_political_stunt_at_nfl_game_cost_taxpayers_hundreds_of_thousands_of.html


The NFL said on Friday it has no plans to mandate players stand for the US national anthem, but will rather present a possible solution for how to end the controversial protests when it meets with team owners next week.


http://nypost.com/2017/10/13/nfl-we-wont-make-players-stand-for-anthem/



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Look, just be thankful that they're tackling the big important issues, even if it involves some expense.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 10/16/17 7:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i get it...."tackling".



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PostPosted: 10/16/17 7:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Colin Kaepernick files grievance for collusion against NFL owners

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21035352/colin-kaepernick-files-grievance-nfl-owners-collusion

Quote:
The filing, which demands an arbitration hearing on the matter, says the NFL and its owners "have colluded to deprive Mr. Kaepernick of employment rights in retaliation for Mr. Kaepernick's leadership and advocacy for equality and social justice and his bringing awareness to peculiar institutions still undermining racial equality in the United States."



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