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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: Fayetteville
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 Posted: 10/05/17 2:29 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Since you guys love to pose questions to me, let me ask you all a few.
When a soldier puts his or her life on the line in a foreign conflict, when they are hanging in there in the face of making the ultimate sacrifice, is that an act of racism? When a mom or pop, tearfully or gung-ho, acquiesces to the service of their son or daughter in harm’s way overseas, is that an act of racism?
See I don’t think you guys fully appreciate the kind of deep and wide resonance these things make throughout a family, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins, throughout networks of friends and associates, communities and how that all impresses itself upon the culture of this country at large. And all of that has, of course, been promulgated and amplified beyond what it ever was before by social media and the internet.
Anyway. |
You are asking us to be understanding of this hyper-patriotism when PoC veterans are suffering the same racism and indignities as all the other PoC. In 1919, in a riot in DC if memory serves a Black veteran of WW I was pulled from a bus and lynched. But you say those types of things don't happen anymore. 2016, Walter Scott, unarmed veteran, gets shot 8 times in the back running away by an officer who claimed that he feared for his life. You say we don't understand hyper-patriotism and that its not racism. I won't equate them directly but apparently some of their side-effects are the same. Just like families grieve for their fallen soldiers so do families of PoC grieve for their wrongfully murdered family members. Are their lives not worth as much as a veteran? Maybe those hyper-patriots should take the time to really understand what they are being patriotic to and for. And learn what their loved ones were actually fighting and dying for. Did they not serve to protect the lives and freedoms of this country? One of which is to be able to protest what we feel is wrong. To sound the alarm that there is something wrong and that we all need to do something about it? I have brothers who served in Vietnam. I have dear friends who served in Desert Storm. I shouldn't have to bring that up to get the point across that I understand loss, grief and sacrifice. As a matter of fact, I am quite familiar due to what's going on in our country today. |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/06/17 4:12 am ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Justin. Get it straight! God, Country, Family, Football. |
Honestly, I think this is the problem in a nutshell.
"God, Country, Family, Football." That's the culture for parts of America. The part of America that you seem to have the most sympathy for.
That's not the culture of all of America, and it's not the culture for most of America any longer. This is literally the Sarah Palin "real Americans" argument. It's bullshit. |
Let's all step back into the Rebkell's Time Machine and marinate in your remarkable consistency.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
I've said it a million times. This is about demographics. Trump (and Republicans by extension) don't have them.
The only way this goes in Trump's way is if everyone but straight white men stay home. Otherwise, Republicans have to seriously change their policies in order to start winning elections again. |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
Trump doesn't have the demographics to win. You can't win with only the white male demo, and that's all Trump has. His only hope is that his supporters run to the polls, and everyone else stays home. |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| I believe there is something happening here in this country right now that might catapult Trump into the White House. |
Do you know voting demographics?
Predicting whose going to win an election is about knowing the demographics. Its predictable.
He's losing the demographics battle badly. My guess is these polls aren't accurately representing the likely voters. In general..women, minorities, and the lgbt crowd are not voting for Trump. He can't win based on that alone. |
To that last chestnut...
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
 |
Such good times we had together!
Look. I'm not putting this stuff in your face to make a young fool out you. I'm putting it in your face so that you might reflect on your track record so far in this thinking about politics you have that says things are going to change in America because one part of America that you abhor is in retrograde? and another that you find more representative of your own political perspective, of which you are so darn sure, is ascending due to... demographics.
So let me make a prediction. You will remember me. That's for certain. You might even remember what I'm about to tell you. That I can't absolutely say for certain. But I would suggest that you mark my words, grasshopper, and never forget them.
First, a lesson that I learned playing with stocks back before the tech bubble burst. Always look at the present stock price as reality. It's trading TODAY at what it is trading at for a reason. Market indexes may go up and down but significant movement in the price of a stock one way or the other is relatively speaking not nearly as common and that's why the idea of pinning your hopes on riding a stock price one way or the other is a fairly dubious proposition.
So right now in America, how are the Republicans doing in their eternal struggle with the Democrats? What is the actual price of their stock? Not the public howling like we use to hear at Microsoft's stock price. What is their actual position right now.
Republicans control state legislatures 32-12.
How about governors? Republicans again. 34-15
They control the US House of Representatives, the United States Senate, and the White House.
So the first order of business is understanding and accepting that this is the present reality. And, I hope, you can maybe start to process my suggesting that it's predictive of future performance. More, I believe, than you, at this point in your life, could ever imagine.
Time for a personal anecdote! All my politically aware life, we thought things were changing politically for the better, and that eventually we would get to this better place, based purely on demographic changes, educational and communications advancements, and the effect all that would have on elective politics.
And the Republicans so often seemed to be shooting their own dicks off. Watergate. Reaganomics. Iran Contra. The overstep of the Lewinsky persecution against a popular president that ended with him sitting pretty and his most prominent tormentors, including the Republican speaker, all drummed out of DC in one personal scandal or another.
The stealing of the 2000 election. The war in Iraq. Katrina.
Shutting down the government.
And yet, here we are.
So you seem to think that sooner or later there's going to be enough GLBT voters, black voters, Latino voters, to go along with the millions who live on either coast, and that this will eventually change the political course and future of this country and we will all finally get to the promised land.
Here's what I predict. There will always be more than enough people who don't fall into your favored demographic categories to replicate themselves and be a factor. If you want to stereotype, there's new generations of pick-up drivin', country music listenin', huntin' and fishin', SEC stadium filling young people out in this country, their Christian asses multiplying away just fine, and you may be counting on them to lose political power in this country, or something, but I suggest that's not going to happen. It's a fantasy.
And there's something else.
You're also going to have to wake up to the fact that people's attitudes about political realities DO change as they age and they become more conservative on a select few, or even many, issues as they get older, WISER, and less idealistic or optimistic.
Older and wiser doesn't mean SHIT to you right now. lol. Just wait till you're older and wiser.
So these people out there in America who you think are becoming less of a factor. I don't think that's happening so indulge me and let's deal with them for a second. Why won't they give Democratic candidates the time of day? I know your reasons. I've been hearing them for years. Let me give you mine, which, yeah, I've kind of been saying for a while here as well.
Those people know, before even I knew, that the Democratic Party has abandoned them politically, doesn't represent them or their interests, even economically. And I'm talking about auto-mechanics, school maintenance workers, truck drivers, construction workers, (actual) small business owners, etc. Service workers, laborers. They know and have known for a long time. So when people like us would say, why, oh why, do they insist on voting against their own interests? They had much stronger reasons than any of us ever gave them credit for, or will give them credit for, for saying fuck you to Democratic politics. Turns out you really can't fool all of the people, all of the time!
The fact that this enlightened group doesn't know that, won't accept it, won't even give it probably a nod to acknowledgment its being a possibility, is really a BIG problem for people like YOU who are placing your bets, have this HOPE, for, very soon now, right around the corner actually, here it comes I can see it now, there it is, do you see it? That brighter future when the demographics we've all been waiting for finally kick in and allow all of us idealistic perfect do-gooders to finally create the world we all want and deserve.
The people who control the Democratic Party, the people who fund it, and who set the priorities and dictate to the Obamas and the Clintons what the actual priorities of the party will be, the people who make up the Democratic Party's ATM... they mostly live within a 5-10 miles radius of where I'm sitting right now. Essentially where I've been sitting for 32 years.
You think YOU know the Democratic Party? I'm telling you that you don't. You guys balk at patriotism. American patriotism. Where do you think you get that? Most smart people can see the dangers of patriotism used as something to manipulate the masses but, believe me or not, the Democrats do that better than anyone. They are the first to stomp on the patriotism accelerator when they need flyover country America's sons and daughters to go fight a war. And then they are the first ones to jam on the brakes when it comes to Americans possibly tilting their heads at a more nationalistic political approach that asks for something from their leaders that prioritizes their own needs and interests.
God, why do you think the education system as it applies to the lower and working classes hasn't ever changed? Everyone has known forever that education is the key! This country would be a radically different America if we'd been able to affect change in our public education. In 2017, knowing what we knew 40 years ago? By now our inner cities should be where we find our future engineers instead of being the place from where we populate our prison system.
But, somehow, we just. can't. figure. out how do to that. All the while churning out successive generations of supremely well-educated children of super-rich Democrats in what is sold to us as being some kind of weird parallel universe where everything is backwards and upside down and what works in ONE world can't possibly work in the other.
Don't even SEPARATE the rich who fund the two parties. Understand that both parties have been taken over completely by the most wealthy people on the planet and that American politics is about delivering to them that which they desire.
And if you don't know this stuff, or at least start allowing for the fact that your party is run by people who are just as bad (except for the Earth) as the corporations that rule the Republican Party, then YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE the Democratic Party. You'll never make it responsive to the needs of the people. ALL of the people. They will throw some bone to you and you will pounce on it, and vote for the Democrat.
As a Clintonista who worshipped Hillary Clinton myself for most of the last few decades, even I would say that if you, mercfan3, were on board to the emotional extent you were for Hillary, then you pounced on a bone that was thrown your way.
You know my mom, with not a second year of classroom learnin', founded an organization called the Democratic Women of Beaver County. And she was the first president and served for two terms. And there was never a more perfect example of a political 'machine' than what the Democratic Party was in Beaver County. My mother practically gripped me by the back of my head and made me watch political conventions.
Point of all that is, I KNOW what the Democratic Party is supposed to be. I know what Democratic politics is supposed to look like, sound like, and what it is supposed to be about accomplishing. (Other than establishing itself as a political machine.)
This ain't it, kids.
Anyway.
Get your head out of this dreamscape of the future when there's finally enough gay people and Mexicans to take over the country. Gay people, for much of the modern history of state politics in California, LOVED to gravitate towards the Republican Party. To their detriment. But people never learn. Once you get rid of Trump, and California starts putting forth gay or gay friendly Republican candidates, five or ten years from now, when you're expecting something else entirely, you're going to see an impact there.
And Mexicans? I've gotten my haircut by the same lady, Margarita, for over 20 years. Followed her from Supercuts to three of her own shops. Today we were talking about politics and what a disaster Trump is. She said, "But Obama! He deported SO many people." And of course he did. Point here is that, anyone who takes for granted the Latino vote is delusional. Latinos, except the Americanized version that is, yes, very well represented politically in California, they REALLY trend towards being conservative by nature. Religious. Not naturally aligned with African Americans, to say the least. And not crazy about LGBT. And let's not even get started on the subject of gender equality.
Of course none of what I'm hoping to accomplish with this diatribe is ever going to happen. I know this. You're going to come here and tell me that I'm wrong. That's why I decided to remind you of your own track record.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/06/17 6:14 am ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Since you guys love to pose questions to me, let me ask you all a few.
When a soldier puts his or her life on the line in a foreign conflict, when they are hanging in there in the face of making the ultimate sacrifice, is that an act of racism? When a mom or pop, tearfully or gung-ho, acquiesces to the service of their son or daughter in harm’s way overseas, is that an act of racism?
See I don’t think you guys fully appreciate the kind of deep and wide resonance these things make throughout a family, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins, throughout networks of friends and associates, communities and how that all impresses itself upon the culture of this country at large. And all of that has, of course, been promulgated and amplified beyond what it ever was before by social media and the internet.
Anyway. |
You are asking us to be understanding of this hyper-patriotism when PoC veterans are suffering the same racism and indignities as all the other PoC. In 1919, in a riot in DC if memory serves a Black veteran of WW I was pulled from a bus and lynched. But you say those types of things don't happen anymore. 2016, Walter Scott, unarmed veteran, gets shot 8 times in the back running away by an officer who claimed that he feared for his life. You say we don't understand hyper-patriotism and that its not racism. I won't equate them directly but apparently some of their side-effects are the same. Just like families grieve for their fallen soldiers so do families of PoC grieve for their wrongfully murdered family members. Are their lives not worth as much as a veteran? Maybe those hyper-patriots should take the time to really understand what they are being patriotic to and for. And learn what their loved ones were actually fighting and dying for. Did they not serve to protect the lives and freedoms of this country? One of which is to be able to protest what we feel is wrong. To sound the alarm that there is something wrong and that we all need to do something about it? I have brothers who served in Vietnam. I have dear friends who served in Desert Storm. I shouldn't have to bring that up to get the point across that I understand loss, grief and sacrifice. As a matter of fact, I am quite familiar due to what's going on in our country today. |
Don't put a question mark at the end of a sentence directed at me. I've given up on the notion that you guys would have enough respect for an argument you don't agree with to submit yourself to questions.
I'll answer my own.
Once again, the principle divide that I have with you guys, one that angers like nothing I've ever seen from some of you, is the idea of the national anthem ritual being a TRIGGER for so many Americans that stems from their own patriotism, and also their being members of a huge cultural bloc of patriotic America. ALL of the resistance and anger that you guys are responding to me with is the result of my simple insistence that these people are actually, sincerely, to a great degree socialized to be, PATRIOTIC Americans who would, in this century, be SO offended by anything that imposes itself on the national anthem ritual... AS TO... and this also has been a main point behind me stepping into this... so offended by anything that imposes itself on the anthem ritual AS TO render that thing, these kneeling or sitting protests, COMPLETELY counter-productive and destructive to the effort being made on behalf of the issue that has inspired the protests.
That is, in essence, the two main ideas that you guys are so determined not to accept. Oh, you may be accepting the second one by now, I guess. But your anger over the patriotism being a trigger idea seems to be only growing.
So let's examine the anthem ritual for a second as it affects this thing I am calling patriotism.
Questions. We all already know the answers.
Before Kaepernick sat or kneeled, before Ferguson, before Trump, even. Before any of this, what was the status and significance and the mood surrounding and the treatment and reception of the national anthem as it had come to be traditionally performed before major sporting events? There's a lot in that question. I hope somebody fucking takes it seriously beside me.
Was it NOT played before sporting events and especially pro sporting events? Yes, jammer, it was.
Might we see a giant American flag unfurled across the playing field or basketball court? Yes, jammer, I seem to recall seeing that quite often.
Might we see a military color guard presenting the American flag and maybe the flags of branches of the American military services? Yeah. That, too.
Did they ever do something crazy like fly a stealth bomber or a tight formation of fighter jets over the stadium at the culmination of the national anthem? Hell yeah! I know I saw that. I think.
Were we ever, as a nation moved by a stirring rendition of the national anthem as sung by a music superstar, like, you know, Whitney Houston, just weeks after we went to war in the Persian Gulf and were all pissing our pants? You're Gaga-damned right we have been, jammer!
Did we ever see a quick shot, during the national anthem at a major sporting even, of a video feed of American troops, overseas in a hostile area? Fuck yeah! USA! USA!
What was the crowd's reaction whenever those troops appeared on the jumbotron?
They went crazy, is the answer you're all so struggling for. Disappointing people of Rebkells.
That's WHAT the national anthem ritual has become in this country in the last 27 years. Yes, I blame Whitney. That was the start of it, IMO. We were, as I remember it, about a month into our first real war since Vietnam. And a lot of people back then remember Vietnam. I've been barely able to say the word my entire adult life. This country was scared. They shortened the time between the conference championship games from the normal two weeks to one week. I have to tell you, people were HANGING a lot on that national anthem performance by Whitney. And with every breath she took and every note she shot out into the universe, her performance LET this country FEEL the presence of its own backbone.
And I'm sure this will be as corny to some of you as it probably has been to me at times but Americans have clung to that national anthem moment, and only BUILT on its pomp, circumstance, and SIGNIFICANCE ever since, to bolster and steel ourselves from a dangerous world.
These words that I've written here are true. Whether any of you can recognize that or admit it. And all of it predates Colin Kaepernick and every aspect of this anthem protest controversy. This IS what America was before the protests and this is what the national anthem was and what it already meant to a large swath of this country long before these protests began. Apparently some of you missed it or just didn't take it seriously.
You guys seem very angry with me and, I have to say, right back at you. I've acknowledged the complexities of every facet of this controversy while so many of you insist on boiling down resistance to the protests as being indicative ONLY of white America's one dimensional resistance to any black protest. Because they are racists and not because they FEEL that their patriotism has been disrespected.
I suspect you're hardly alone and so now you will see the division and resentment surrounding this issue compounded by an insistence on the left that it isn't patriotism at all behind the push back, but just plain old racism.
I'm done.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 5365
Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 10/06/17 8:03 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Don't put a question mark at the end of a sentence directed at me. I've given up on the notion that you guys would have enough respect for an argument you don't agree with to submit yourself to questions.
I'll answer my own.
Once again, the principle divide that I have with you guys, one that angers like nothing I've ever seen from some of you, is the idea of the national anthem ritual being a TRIGGER for so many Americans that stems from their own patriotism, and also their being members of a huge cultural bloc of patriotic America. ALL of the resistance and anger that you guys are responding to me with is the result of my simple insistence that these people are actually, sincerely, to a great degree socialized to be, PATRIOTIC Americans who would, in this century, be SO offended by anything that imposes itself on the national anthem ritual... AS TO... and this also has been a main point behind me stepping into this... so offended by anything that imposes itself on the anthem ritual AS TO render that thing, these kneeling or sitting protests, COMPLETELY counter-productive and destructive to the effort being made on behalf of the issue that has inspired the protests.
That is, in essence, the two main ideas that you guys are so determined not to accept. Oh, you may be accepting the second one by now, I guess. But your anger over the patriotism being a trigger idea seems to be only growing.
So let's examine the anthem ritual for a second as it affects this thing I am calling patriotism.
Questions. We all already know the answers.
Before Kaepernick sat or kneeled, before Ferguson, before Trump, even. Before any of this, what was the status and significance and the mood surrounding and the treatment and reception of the national anthem as it had come to be traditionally performed before major sporting events? There's a lot in that question. I hope somebody fucking takes it seriously beside me.
Was it NOT played before sporting events and especially pro sporting events? Yes, jammer, it was.
Might we see a giant American flag unfurled across the playing field or basketball court? Yes, jammer, I seem to recall seeing that quite often.
Might we see a military color guard presenting the American flag and maybe the flags of branches of the American military services? Yeah. That, too.
Did they ever do something crazy like fly a stealth bomber or a tight formation of fighter jets over the stadium at the culmination of the national anthem? Hell yeah! I know I saw that. I think.
Were we ever, as a nation moved by a stirring rendition of the national anthem as sung by a music superstar, like, you know, Whitney Houston, just weeks after we went to war in the Persian Gulf and were all pissing our pants? You're Gaga-damned right we have been, jammer!
Did we ever see a quick shot, during the national anthem at a major sporting even, of a video feed of American troops, overseas in a hostile area? Fuck yeah! USA! USA!
What was the crowd's reaction whenever those troops appeared on the jumbotron?
They went crazy, is the answer you're all so struggling for. Disappointing people of Rebkells.
That's WHAT the national anthem ritual has become in this country in the last 27 years. Yes, I blame Whitney. That was the start of it, IMO. We were, as I remember it, about a month into our first real war since Vietnam. And a lot of people back then remember Vietnam. I've been barely able to say the word my entire adult life. This country was scared. They shortened the time between the conference championship games from the normal two weeks to one week. I have to tell you, people were HANGING a lot on that national anthem performance by Whitney. And with every breath she took and every note she shot out into the universe, her performance LET this country FEEL the presence of its own backbone.
And I'm sure this will be as corny to some of you as it probably has been to me at times but Americans have clung to that national anthem moment, and only BUILT on its pomp, circumstance, and SIGNIFICANCE ever since, to bolster and steel ourselves from a dangerous world.
These words that I've written here are true. Whether any of you can recognize that or admit it. And all of it predates Colin Kaepernick and every aspect of this anthem protest controversy. This IS what America was before the protests and this is what the national anthem was and what it already meant to a large swath of this country long before these protests began. Apparently some of you missed it or just didn't take it seriously.
You guys seem very angry with me and, I have to say, right back at you. I've acknowledged the complexities of every facet of this controversy while so many of you insist on boiling down resistance to the protests as being indicative ONLY of white America's one dimensional resistance to any black protest. Because they are racists and not because they FEEL that their patriotism has been disrespected.
I suspect you're hardly alone and so now you will see the division and resentment surrounding this issue compounded by an insistence on the left that it isn't patriotism at all behind the push back, but just plain old racism.
I'm done. |
LOL! You apparently love seeing complexities from yours and those who think like you's perspective. i guess we all do to a certain degree unless we make a concerted effort not to. please don't assume because i engage you in debate that it means I'm angry with you. It just means I strongly disagree with you and would like you to consider another side. (Yes I have considered your points. I simply disagree). You seem to be cognizant of all the patriotic ritual you've seen going on over the years but did you realize at the very same time people at the games and events were at the concession stands not giving a damn about it. Some just whooping up cuz everybody else was. Sort of a mob mentality. I don't say this to invalidate what you perceived but to try to get you to understand there was more to it than that. In your world is patriotism the ultimate or is there ever a time when it goes too far? Because if you feel there are no flaws to patriotism or that it can't be overzealous or used for bad things beyond its intended purpose then that would explain a lot. When the idea of patriotism is held as a barricade against trying to understand what is wrong in this country, I think its being misappropriated.
Last edited by hyperetic on 10/06/17 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 10/06/17 9:33 am ::: |
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mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19764
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| Posted: 10/06/17 1:52 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Yup.
And honestly, shame on me for not paying attention. Quality writers were talking about it, warning about it.
But shame on others for trying to twist what happened. More people voted for Democrats.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/06/17 3:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Yup.
And honestly, shame on me for not paying attention. Quality writers were talking about it, warning about it.
But shame on others for trying to twist what happened. More people voted for Democrats. |
Shame on others for trying to twist it? Is that directed at me? lol. For attempting, with your own written thoughts, to show you that you have been consistently wrong about what you are continuing to assert?
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/06/17 3:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.)
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19764
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| Posted: 10/06/17 8:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Yup.
And honestly, shame on me for not paying attention. Quality writers were talking about it, warning about it.
But shame on others for trying to twist what happened. More people voted for Democrats. |
Shame on others for trying to twist it? Is that directed at me? lol. For attempting, with your own written thoughts, to show you that you have been consistently wrong about what you are continuing to assert?
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I'm not sure you understand what I'm continuing to assert, and it's clear as day you have no idea what my political feelings and thoughts actually are..because anyone who describes them as idealistic doesn't understand my thoughts on the matter. 
Again, I said I wasn't paying attention to Republican methods - and I should have. My love for the Clintons was always because they played like Republicans. As in, they stood for quality policy, but they understood the political game like Republicans did, and that made them both more effective.
So I should have known. I should have known that Republicans weren't going to take losing the demographic game well. I should have been paying attention to more than what main stream media was picking up.
Do I think my generation will change it? It depends? Are Democrats done playing soft? We will go through a time period where we take over government again, just as we did after a few of the Bush years. Will we put in place strong anti-gerrymandering laws, strengthen voting rights (maybe even automatic registration?), maybe even change the way the electoral college works? Will we stop with our voter apathy during mid term elections?
I don't know, and I can't answer it. I just know we need more pragmatic liberal politicians that understand policies and "the game."
But we've gone through this "White Middle Americans" abandoning the Democratic party debate, over and over again. I know your thoughts. You know mine. And believe it or not, I know their perspective. These are not just your people Jammer, these are my people too. And I still live with them. And I still work with them. I haven't run off to California.
So, not only do I have policies and historical evidence and personal anecdotes to back my opinion up (which is, of course, that racism and the media has played a major role in the shift from Democrats to Republicans of this particular group..along with Republicans branding their party - without merit - as the party of military appreciation and family values).
And I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to assert because you just went all random, other than to show me that I was wrong about who would win. Again, me an everyone else who wasn't paying attention to voter suppression. Being right about the result, does not mean you were right about the reason. Again, narratives are nice, but yours tend to be popular and likely false given the evidence.
And, my reasoning wasn't completely wrong:
"His only hope is that all of his supporters run to the polls, and everyone stays home."
Well, his supporters all did run to the polls in the areas he won..and everyone else wasn't allowed to vote. 
Do you think racism played a major role in this election?
Do you think sexism played a major role in this election?
Do you think Russia and Comey played a major role in this election?
Do you think voter suppression played a major role in this election?
Do you understand that Citizens United means that Democrats HAVE to play nice with corporations to some extent?
Do you think there is an issue with police violence against black Americans?
Do you think "God, Country, Football" is the entirety of American culture?
Do you think WI,MI, and Penn voted for Trump because of economic reasons?
Do you think Donald Trump is President because this is what America wanted or for structural reasons?
Because it sure seems like the answers to these questions are: No, No, No, No, No, No, Yes, Yes, and "this is what America wants." So please, correct me if I'm wrong.
And it sure seems to me, that when you are talking about America..you are often talking about white (male) Middle America..sometimes without even realizing it. My argument is, and will continue to be...it's not the 50s any longer.
BTW: People don't get more conservative. They just stop progressing.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/06/17 9:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.) |
Compared to voting for the GOP, voting for the Democratic Party is certainly good, if one is of the voting bloc you seem to hold dear.
I mean, it's not even close.
However, of course, if one is duped, or in the Top 2% of wealth, or racist, or self-loathing, or, as you say, a sheep, or, in the current vernacular, a Trumpanzee, then the GOP is golden. (no pee-pee tape pun intended) 
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 5365
Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 10/06/17 9:49 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| In your world is patriotism the ultimate or is there ever a time when it goes too far? Because if you feel there are no flaws to patriotism or that it can't be overzealous or used for bad things beyond its intended purpose then that would explain a lot. |
Now passive aggressive crap? Really? Just last night I wrote...
Most smart people can see the dangers of patriotism used as something to manipulate the masses...
I'm sitting here explaining to a group of rigid and brittle idealists what just happened and why with this anthem shit and you're like, Eww, jammer, SO patriotic! I guess that explains a lot.
 |
Hmmm... Funny how you can diagnose what you think is passive aggressive and anger in others yet seemingly miss it in yourself. (That wasn't passive aggressive. Just sarcasm.) If you know that about hyper-patriotism, how can you not see its negative effects to do with the protests? Or did I miss that too? |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/06/17 10:48 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
Because it sure seems like the answers to these questions are: No, No, No, No, No, No, Yes, Yes, and "this is what America wants." So please, correct me if I'm wrong.
And it sure seems to me, that when you are talking about America..you are often talking about white (male) Middle America..sometimes without even realizing it. My argument is, and will continue to be...it's not the 50s any longer.
|
You know I can't continue to respond to these 'it sure seems' insinuations and veiled suggestions that I'm personally a racist or siding with whites over blacks.
I've said what follow here many times, it goes ignored because I'm dealing with people who choose to ignore anything that might hinder them from using the unimaginative tactic of slaughtering the messenger by impugning them.
My political heroes were Ali and Angela Davis growing up. And the Kennedys. For the first half of my life my political passions surrounded ONE issue. Racial inequality and injustice. Race. It's all I thought about or cared about. I didn't care about the environment, taxes, abortion, rich women's rights in the workplace, gun control, none of it. As simply a poorly educated kid from a bleak industrial town, I identified and put my mind to work on the issue that grabbed me.
As I've also said many times, however, I have differed, also from a very young age, with the tactics that have often been employed by WHITE liberal groups who weighed in on behalf of blacks in this country. That's maybe a too-complicated notion for people who only see things as you're either 100% with the narrative, or you're a racist. But those tactics included things like public service announcements paid for by white New Yorkers that sought to demonstrate how wrong racism was by humiliating people who held racial stereotypes. Humiliating people doesn't work, I thought. I haven't changed my thoughts in that area.
So I speak out and always have against things that I feel are going to backfire and move racial progress nowhere but backwards. I think this has become a superficial group, that adheres itself in a classic knee jerk manner to anything and everything that carries the whiff of approval their side in a divisive perspective on the question of race.
It's very hard to have an open and serious debate point by point on issues without someone sitting across from you and essentially placing their hand on their chin, squinting at you, and saying, in effect, Hmmm. Seems you might be a racist, comrade-jammer.!
Seems like... you just did that, mercfan3. For only the zillionth time.
The things that I want politically are the things I've always wanted. Economic justice for all Americans. That means a sustained examination of everything that has harmed American workers and destroyed the one-time prosperity of the working class and have literally leveled once-prosperous small towns across the country.
That isn't black or white but here's some news for you, black people are poor and working class. My sincere hopes are that an emphasis on the issues of the poor and the working class would be tailored with specific corrections in place to change the horizons of the poorest and most at-risk African Americans in this country. Because they need it more than anyone, number one, number two because this country must correct centuries of injustice by creating a different prognosis for this outsized percentage of blacks who live near or beneath the poverty line.
And lastly and not the least significantly we have to change the arc of black lives in this country so that we keep them out of the criminal justice system, off the nightly news via surveillance cameras and out of prison. Seeing African Americans as criminals is a huge driver of racial divisions. Instead of arguing about that, instead of demeaning white people who might look at those videos and further develop dread or repulsion at what their seeing and attributing it all to there being something wrong with black people... do the long and painful work of changing paths that are available to young black people in America.
That means equal education and for once a true effort to change the system that was failing Americans when I was a child, failed me and everyone I knew, and continues to fail a massive number of Americans including in the schools right back where I started.
Do I think streets in black sections of the inner cities should be safe from crime and murder? I do. How that can make me a racist is the result of a tangled thought processes routed in misguided and misdirected group-think that has sadly become another knee jerk reaction to anyone who differs with the mantras and talking points and positions as have been laid out for good lefties from above.
But those streets remain extremely and unacceptably dangerous and there is and always will be only two ways to render them safer. One is through aggressive policing and the apprehending and incarceration of criminals and gang members.
The other way to make those streets safer is through education and dramatically changing the horizons of possibility for SWATHS of a population. Change the schools. Create a federal task force that goes into every large school district and assesses the most obvious failures and quickly fixes them. And then change what goes on in schools. Feed the kids two meals a day and if they don't have dinner waiting for them after school feed them a dinner as well.
See. Now right about here both political sides would say, who's going to pay for all of that? You haven't even gotten to the mind bogglingly expensive changes to the education system you're probably proposing.
But the reason YOU find money to be a stumbling block and I don't, is because I live in California. The west side of Los Angeles. Beverly Hills. I know something you don't know. I know how much money there really is. And GOOD NEWS! It's in the hands of DEMOCRATS! So you KNOW they're all going to be so willing to chip in whatever it takes to change this country and the miserable life horizons of so many poor black people everywhere in America.
Okay, a little smart ass shit there at the end. I'll wrap it up.
These are MY politics. MY political passions. They are not racist. They are different! Didn't used to be. But now seeing them emphasized in the context of the modern political wars they seem wildly different than anything you're hearing. They represent more specific solutions to specific problems than say this notion of identity politics that only divides Americans around wedge issues.
Do I want this education overhaul just for blacks? Of course not. I want it for everyone who doesn't get the kind of education the children of affluence get.
The emphasis on what serves best the American worker? That's as much aimed at black people, and righting the hundreds of years of economic injustice endured by black people, as it is to fix simply modern realities.
I'm hyper sensitive to things that divide white and black America. I always have been. Humiliation of poor and working class whites who don't like blacks? Epic fail. Humiliation in this instance is like pouring gasoline on your barbecuing neighbor in a disastrously stupid effort to put out his apron that has caught fire. Boom! Now look at what you've done. And there it is, evidenced in an America that is, as I've said many times in the last few years, on the verge or in the early stages of a race war.
Being away from this board for however many months I stayed away has clarified many things about the perspectives and tactics etc. as they exist here. I thought so highly of people here for so long. But I've come to see the impugning and the trolling as evidence of real shortcomings of perspective and imagination. And worse.
As I said, it's very hard to have a political conversation here that stays within the confines of respectful debating. It's like there's this EASY button just sitting there and people can't help but slap at it whenever the going gets tough. Impugn a person by insinuation. Call who they are into question. Insinuate that there's some dark heart beating beneath the surface of their ideas. Ask them how many murders of black people by the police they find acceptable. lol. That was a good one, pilight. Are they a madly patriotic sheep? And all the way up to quoting them and answering with a Nazi slogan or a YouTube of a Klan meeting.
So, lastly, regarding my own political viewpoint and solutions. Do I think any of it will ever happen and we'll fix or straighten out this country's problems in the area of race and economic equality? I certainly do not. I don't know what that makes me in the eyes of people here after they've worn out calling me a racist. But no, I don't believe we will ever get there. Because if everyone even here can so easily resort to the tactic of casting aspersions at fellow Democrats who are simply trying to open a debate about the nature and viability of where liberals or Dems should be, then there's no hope out there. The battle lines are being drawn and we're not going anywhere good as a country.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/06/17 10:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.) |
Compared to voting for the GOP, voting for the Democratic Party is certainly good, if one is of the voting bloc you seem to hold dear.
I mean, it's not even close.
However, of course, if one is duped, or in the Top 2% of wealth, or racist, or self-loathing, or, as you say, a sheep, or, in the current vernacular, a Trumpanzee, then the GOP is golden. (no pee-pee tape pun intended) |
Oh God we KNOW, champ! Republicans are bad! Somebody give this guy a Nobel Prize in physics, or something. Because he's done his math and has pulled up just the right answer somehow from the vast here-to-fore unknowable expanse of universe that offers but two possible answers and BOTH OF THEM ARE RIGHT! What a discovery!
Jesus. God.
Now when do we get to talk about how FUCKED our side is? When do we get to EXAMINE it? All the mistakes and all the deceptions and the corruptions and decades of failures to deliver that lie at the heart of it all. Because I already know all about the Republicants or RepupugnantKlans or whatever the freak other of the hundreds of silly names you call them that all reflect the maturity level of a 15-year-old kid.
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|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21930
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/07/17 1:26 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
Because it sure seems like the answers to these questions are: No, No, No, No, No, No, Yes, Yes, and "this is what America wants." So please, correct me if I'm wrong.
And it sure seems to me, that when you are talking about America..you are often talking about white (male) Middle America..sometimes without even realizing it. My argument is, and will continue to be...it's not the 50s any longer.
|
You know I can't continue to respond to these 'it sure seems' insinuations and veiled suggestions that I'm personally a racist or siding with whites over blacks.
I've said what follow here many times, it goes ignored because I'm dealing with people who choose to ignore anything that might hinder them from using the unimaginative tactic of slaughtering the messenger by impugning them.
My political heroes were Ali and Angela Davis growing up. And the Kennedys. For the first half of my life my political passions surrounded ONE issue. Racial inequality and injustice. Race. It's all I thought about or cared about. I didn't care about the environment, taxes, abortion, rich women's rights in the workplace, gun control, none of it. As simply a poorly educated kid from a bleak industrial town, I identified and put my mind to work on the issue that grabbed me.
As I've also said many times, however, I have differed, also from a very young age, with the tactics that have often been employed by WHITE liberal groups who weighed in on behalf of blacks in this country. That's maybe a too-complicated notion for people who only see things as you're either 100% with the narrative, or you're a racist. But those tactics included things like public service announcements paid for by white New Yorkers that sought to demonstrate how wrong racism was by humiliating people who held racial stereotypes. Humiliating people doesn't work, I thought. I haven't changed my thoughts in that area.
So I speak out and always have against things that I feel are going to backfire and move racial progress nowhere but backwards. I think this has become a superficial group, that adheres itself in a classic knee jerk manner to anything and everything that carries the whiff of approval their side in a divisive perspective on the question of race.
It's very hard to have an open and serious debate point by point on issues without someone sitting across from you and essentially placing their hand on their chin, squinting at you, and saying, in effect, Hmmm. Seems you might be a racist, comrade-jammer.!
Seems like... you just did that, mercfan3. For only the zillionth time.
The things that I want politically are the things I've always wanted. Economic justice for all Americans. That means a sustained examination of everything that has harmed American workers and destroyed the one-time prosperity of the working class and have literally leveled once-prosperous small towns across the country.
That isn't black or white but here's some news for you, black people are poor and working class. My sincere hopes are that an emphasis on the issues of the poor and the working class would be tailored with specific corrections in place to change the horizons of the poorest and most at-risk African Americans in this country. Because they need it more than anyone, number one, number two because this country must correct centuries of injustice by creating a different prognosis for this outsized percentage of blacks who live near or beneath the poverty line.
And lastly and not the least significantly we have to change the arc of black lives in this country so that we keep them out of the criminal justice system, off the nightly news via surveillance cameras and out of prison. Seeing African Americans as criminals is a huge driver of racial divisions. Instead of arguing about that, instead of demeaning white people who might look at those videos and further develop dread or repulsion at what their seeing and attributing it all to there being something wrong with black people... do the long and painful work of changing paths that are available to young black people in America.
That means equal education and for once a true effort to change the system that was failing Americans when I was a child, failed me and everyone I knew, and continues to fail a massive number of Americans including in the schools right back where I started.
Do I think streets in black sections of the inner cities should be safe from crime and murder? I do. How that can make me a racist is the result of a tangled thought processes routed in misguided and misdirected group-think that has sadly become another knee jerk reaction to anyone who differs with the mantras and talking points and positions as have been laid out for good lefties from above.
But those streets remain extremely and unacceptably dangerous and there is and always will be only two ways to render them safer. One is through aggressive policing and the apprehending and incarceration of criminals and gang members.
The other way to make those streets safer is through education and dramatically changing the horizons of possibility for SWATHS of a population. Change the schools. Create a federal task force that goes into every large school district and assesses the most obvious failures and quickly fixes them. And then change what goes on in schools. Feed the kids two meals a day and if they don't have dinner waiting for them after school feed them a dinner as well.
See. Now right about here both political sides would say, who's going to pay for all of that? You haven't even gotten to the mind bogglingly expensive changes to the education system you're probably proposing.
But the reason YOU find money to be a stumbling block and I don't, is because I live in California. The west side of Los Angeles. Beverly Hills. I know something you don't know. I know how much money there really is. And GOOD NEWS! It's in the hands of DEMOCRATS! So you KNOW they're all going to be so willing to chip in whatever it takes to change this country and the miserable life horizons of so many poor black people everywhere in America.
Okay, a little smart ass shit there at the end. I'll wrap it up.
These are MY politics. MY political passions. They are not racist. They are different! Didn't used to be. But now seeing them emphasized in the context of the modern political wars they seem wildly different than anything you're hearing. They represent more specific solutions to specific problems than say this notion of identity politics that only divides Americans around wedge issues.
Do I want this education overhaul just for blacks? Of course not. I want it for everyone who doesn't get the kind of education the children of affluence get.
The emphasis on what serves best the American worker? That's as much aimed at black people, and righting the hundreds of years of economic injustice endured by black people, as it is to fix simply modern realities.
I'm hyper sensitive to things that divide white and black America. I always have been. Humiliation of poor and working class whites who don't like blacks? Epic fail. Humiliation in this instance is like pouring gasoline on your barbecuing neighbor in a disastrously stupid effort to put out his apron that has caught fire. Boom! Now look at what you've done. And there it is, evidenced in an America that is, as I've said many times in the last few years, on the verge or in the early stages of a race war.
Being away from this board for however many months I stayed away has clarified many things about the perspectives and tactics etc. as they exist here. I thought so highly of people here for so long. But I've come to see the impugning and the trolling as evidence of real shortcomings of perspective and imagination. And worse.
As I said, it's very hard to have a political conversation here that stays within the confines of respectful debating. It's like there's this EASY button just sitting there and people can't help but slap at it whenever the going gets tough. Impugn a person by insinuation. Call who they are into question. Insinuate that there's some dark heart beating beneath the surface of their ideas. Ask them how many murders of black people by the police they find acceptable. lol. That was a good one, pilight. Are they a madly patriotic sheep? And all the way up to quoting them and answering with a Nazi slogan or a YouTube of a Klan meeting.
So, lastly, regarding my own political viewpoint and solutions. Do I think any of it will ever happen and we'll fix or straighten out this country's problems in the area of race and economic equality? I certainly do not. I don't know what that makes me in the eyes of people here after they've worn out calling me a racist. But no, I don't believe we will ever get there. Because if everyone even here can so easily resort to the tactic of casting aspersions at fellow Democrats who are simply trying to open a debate about the nature and viability of where liberals or Dems should be, then there's no hope out there. The battle lines are being drawn and we're not going anywhere good as a country. |
One of your best posts.
Just as I believe that kneeling during the anthem, and loving your country, can happily coexist (in fact IMO if you really love your country and want the best for it, you absolutely should take the opportunities when you have them to speak up on important fundamental injustices that would make your country even better if they were rectified), I also think that supporting one political party over the other, and being critical of the party you support, can, and should, coexist. There are a lot of important issues out there. Does "your" party nail every one of them to your satisfaction? I doubt it. Does it make you some kind of weak person or traitor if you admit that? No, it just makes you an honest person with standards.
I lean left, but I tend to mostly be embarrassed by the conduct of my fellow lefties when things get heated. I agree that just ridiculing someone doesn't tend to work. I think I'm yet to ever see it be effective in effecting change - at least not in the intended direction.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/07/17 9:25 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.) |
Compared to voting for the GOP, voting for the Democratic Party is certainly good, if one is of the voting bloc you seem to hold dear.
I mean, it's not even close.
However, of course, if one is duped, or in the Top 2% of wealth, or racist, or self-loathing, or, as you say, a sheep, or, in the current vernacular, a Trumpanzee, then the GOP is golden. (no pee-pee tape pun intended) |
Oh God we KNOW, champ! Republicans are bad! Somebody give this guy a Nobel Prize in physics, or something. Because he's done his math and has pulled up just the right answer somehow from the vast here-to-fore unknowable expanse of universe that offers but two possible answers and BOTH OF THEM ARE RIGHT! What a discovery!
Jesus. God.
Now when do we get to talk about how FUCKED our side is? When do we get to EXAMINE it? All the mistakes and all the deceptions and the corruptions and decades of failures to deliver that lie at the heart of it all. Because I already know all about the Republicants or RepupugnantKlans or whatever the freak other of the hundreds of silly names you call them that all reflect the maturity level of a 15-year-old kid. |
Brilliant. Maturity, what YOU should demand in others.
It's for neophytes as yourself that my going back to these basics seems necessary.
That the Dems sold out to corporations is neither breaking news nor brilliant analysis.
Apparently you had the epiphany last year and have buried this place in an avalanche of verbosity ever since. I say congratulations, welcome aboard.
The bigger issues in the 2016 election, and you may not be able to grasp this because it's hasn't been your declaration, in more than a few 500+ word proclamations on the subject, are Voter Suppression and Trump campaign assisted Russian tampering.
Until these problems are addressed, there is no election sanctity.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19764
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/07/17 12:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
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First of all Jammer, I would say it's impossible to discuss anything with you, because you have a tendency to take slices of what people say, twist it, and then go on a tangent about it. Like, for instance, the discussion about Universal Healthcare turning into a discussion about age. Please stop straw-manning.
Second, again..I don't know if you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, or ranting deliberately..but no, in this instance I was not calling you racist. I was asking you questions (which you didn't answer) because I am not sure what you believe.
I truly don't know..
I don't know whether you are simply more sympathetic towards this particular segment of the American population than any other group and their beliefs, or whether you agree with their beliefs, or whether you think that's irrelevant and your issue is in corporate money. From what you've written, it seems like it's all three..but please, correct me if I'm wrong. This is judgement free, too. Truly it is. I keep feeling like you post something, I argue against it, and then you go in another direction. What is the point you are trying to make if it's not the above?
And I'll tell you this, these "liberals" that you are criticizing on this board..we've heard the message (all 3) you are delivering. And we've been hearing it from white male liberals and independents for a while now.
Because I don't feel like getting into my thoughts on racism, yet again..I'm going to repeat what I asked about corporations and "selling out."
What do you suppose Democrats should do with Citizens United as the rule of law? You need money to win. Could maybe those Wealthy Californian Democrats invest in the broke ass DNC please?
The Democrats are corrupt? Say it isn't so, Jammer. Animal Farm is the most realistic piece of fiction ever written. You think there was a point in time Democrats weren't corrupt? You think there's ever a chance for a political party to not be corrupt? If so..man..you say I'm idealist.
So long as that party supports policies that help people. If we want less influence of corporate money, we need to overturn Citizens United. In order to do that, Democrats need to win elections. in order to win elections, Democrats need to compete monetarily. In order to compete, they need to take corporate money. We're going to blame Democrats for that situation? We're the assholes who voted in politicians who put Judges on the Supreme Court that decided cases like Citizens United. Let them win elections, and then we can push for a change. (Here's a hint, they want to anyway. Not necessarily because they don't like corporations, but because they can't compete with Republican donations. Getting corporations out of politics evens up the power between Republicans and Democrats. They want it gone too.) Until then, stop whinning about it
When they start advocating for gun rights over second graders lives because of that NRA check..then there's a problem. But as it stands, our last two Democratic Presidents saved the economy and helped to provide better health insurance for the country, and we thanked them by giving them a congress full of Republicans and then call both sides the same because Democrats get nothing done.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/07/17 3:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.) |
Compared to voting for the GOP, voting for the Democratic Party is certainly good, if one is of the voting bloc you seem to hold dear.
I mean, it's not even close.
However, of course, if one is duped, or in the Top 2% of wealth, or racist, or self-loathing, or, as you say, a sheep, or, in the current vernacular, a Trumpanzee, then the GOP is golden. (no pee-pee tape pun intended) |
Oh God we KNOW, champ! Republicans are bad! Somebody give this guy a Nobel Prize in physics, or something. Because he's done his math and has pulled up just the right answer somehow from the vast here-to-fore unknowable expanse of universe that offers but two possible answers and BOTH OF THEM ARE RIGHT! What a discovery!
Jesus. God.
Now when do we get to talk about how FUCKED our side is? When do we get to EXAMINE it? All the mistakes and all the deceptions and the corruptions and decades of failures to deliver that lie at the heart of it all. Because I already know all about the Republicants or RepupugnantKlans or whatever the freak other of the hundreds of silly names you call them that all reflect the maturity level of a 15-year-old kid. |
Brilliant. Maturity, what YOU should demand in others.
It's for neophytes as yourself that my going back to these basics seems necessary.
That the Dems sold out to corporations is neither breaking news nor brilliant analysis.
Apparently you had the epiphany last year and have buried this place in an avalanche of verbosity ever since. I say congratulations, welcome aboard. |
Again, really? This...
Sshhh. We know all that, jammer. You just figured this out? Congratulations. Nothing new here. Not news.
Meanwhile, you come on this board and over and over and over again offer the perspective which I will sum up as. Republicans are bad.
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| hard to find a Republican who is not an asshole. |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Why do Republiscums continually lie about this bill? |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
or, as Republiscums call it, tax reform.
Trickle down doesn't work. Never has. Never will.
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| I'm amazed people are still duped. |
I'm amazed, too. Seriously. You post the same thing ad nauseum.
You'd have a better case against me if you just said something like, Whoa, jammer. Your shit is nuts bro. Can't be true. Seek help immediately.
Speaking of nuts.
| Quote: |
| That the Dems sold out to corporations is neither breaking news nor brilliant analysis. |
 Yeah. Cause that's exactly what I've been saying.
You know what this place needs? It just came to me. It needs someone to say something like, oh I don't know, I had it there for second, wait, GOT IT!, Republicans are bad.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/07/17 5:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| First of all Jammer, I would say it's impossible to discuss anything with you, because you have a tendency to take slices of what people say, twist it, and then go on a tangent about it. Like, for instance, the discussion about Universal Healthcare turning into a discussion about age. Please stop straw-manning. |
Oh jeez. You sought to undermine my support of Sanders's bringing up MFA by suggesting (three times) that the senators who signed off on the bill were young and ambitious. I simply pointed out the actual ages of most of the senators and the average age of the entire 16.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
Second, again..I don't know if you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, or ranting deliberately..but no, in this instance I was not calling you racist. I was asking you questions (which you didn't answer) because I am not sure what you believe.
I truly don't know.. |
Dude I'm not answering you guys' questions. And I write what I believe clearly (mostly) and if I scramble a thought I certainly make up for it with a writing style that I myself would characterize as being, at least as it exists here, redundant. And it doesn't matter if you know what I believe. I'm not being examined by you. My motives or anything like that. I'm posting my political thoughts. I love to debate. I don't like when people turn their attention to me personally in an attempt to undermine my assertions. Seems like you... etc.
Oh now I see it’s “I don’t know whether you are...” in your first sentence below that I've bolded. What "segment of the American population" would that be that I MIGHT BE more sympathetic to than any other, mercfan3? Oh. Yes. Of course. White people. Woo-hoo, Everybody GET that?
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I don't know whether you are simply more sympathetic towards this particular segment of the American population than any other group and their beliefs, or whether you agree with their beliefs, or whether you think that's irrelevant and your issue is in corporate money. From what you've written, it seems like it's all three..but please, correct me if I'm wrong. This is judgement free, too. Truly it is. I keep feeling like you post something, I argue against it, and then you go in another direction. What is the point you are trying to make if it's not the above? |
No you GOT IT. Corporate money. You understand perfectly.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| And I'll tell you this, these "liberals" that you are criticizing on this board..we've heard the message (all 3) you are delivering. And we've been hearing it from white male liberals and independents for a while now. |
You've been hearing what I'm saying for a while now from other sources? All my stuff about corporate money and the Democratic Party? Well. Okay. I'll take your word for it. How about this. I won't post anything else on corporate money and the Democratic Party. Actually, I've got a NEW ANGLE! Completely new. It's about the dark heart of the Democratic Party's ATM machine, the AMAZING private wealth and big money donors behind the Obamas and Clintons, etc. And here's the thing. They're right HERE where I live in California and OH I have SO much to share with you guys.
You keep an eye out for that stuff, mercfan3. Okay?
| mercfan3 wrote: |
Because I don't feel like getting into my thoughts on racism, yet again..I'm going to repeat what I asked about corporations and "selling out."
What do you suppose Democrats should do with Citizens United as the rule of law? You need money to win. Could maybe those Wealthy Californian Democrats invest in the broke ass DNC please? |
Citizens United? Bad. But I want to write about the things that I have a focus on. I'm an old dude. Laws and court rulings come and go. Some things are constant. I like to write on things that I believe are slipping past most people. Details about who really pulls the strings in our country. I think we all, as informed liberals would, know a lot about the other side. I'm more interested in starting a discussion that illuminates what's in our dark corners as a political party. For instance, how did we come to be the party that holds meetings to decide, once and for all, to abandon, the working class. Not white. Everyone. I put this stuff here because for the longest time I thought very highly of the liberal minds on this board. Maybe I thought, naively, that I might plant some seeds. We'll see.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| The Democrats are corrupt? Say it isn't so, Jammer. Animal Farm is the most realistic piece of fiction ever written. You think there was a point in time Democrats weren't corrupt? You think there's ever a chance for a political party to not be corrupt? If so..man..you say I'm idealist. |
Ha. Ha. Ha. Silly me. I didn't KNOW that you guys knew all this stuff that I know! Sincerely. I thought I was actually providing new information and details about things like, who, what, how, why, and, most of all, where. I didn't know, I promise you, that you guys knew everything already. And judging by you and cthskzfn, apparently everyone on Rebkell's knows it all already so there's no need for all this stuff I'm posting about California and tying it into what good Dems around the country might be riling themselves up over like DACA etc. what it means that serial sexual harassers control the Democratic Party and its stars like Hillary Clinton. What AM I expecting out of the Democratic Party I've belonged to my entire life? Why would I talk about it or care about it or write about any of that here detailing things that expose the corruption and hypocrisy in my own party? Why WOULDN'T I expect to find a perfectly informed group of way-down-the-food-chain Libs and Dems who KNOW IT ALL already and don't care and don't want to hear it? What a hopeless idealist I truly am.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| So long as that party supports policies that help people. If we want less influence of corporate money, we need to overturn Citizens United. In order to do that, Democrats need to win elections. in order to win elections, Democrats need to compete monetarily. In order to compete, they need to take corporate money. |
Okay, got a rhythm going there. Don't lose it! I'm gettin' it. Gettin' my marching orders. Shit! There's that corporate money thing again. Don't go there, jammer. Hot!
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| We're going to blame Democrats for that situation? We're the assholes who voted in politicians who put Judges on the Supreme Court that decided cases like Citizens United. Let them win elections, and then we can push for a change. (Here's a hint, they want to anyway. Not necessarily because they don't like corporations, but because they can't compete with Republican donations. Getting corporations out of politics evens up the power between Republicans and Democrats. They want it gone too.) Until then, stop whinning about it |
Okay, Comrade Party Boss, Rebkell’s Section! Whip cracked and OUCH! Shut UP, jammer! I promise you won't hear a word of whining from me on the subject of corporate money corrupting the Democratic Party.
Thank you for this, mercfan3. I so needed it. Truly.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/08/17 8:53 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
mercfan, like most people, couldn't factor in the extent to which Republican-led voter suppression and Trump-allied Russian intervention would play in the election.
This type of malfeasance, along w/ voting district gerrymandering, is an important factor re: the current Republican stronghold on Federal elected offices, imo.
And again, Clinton received 3,000,000+ more votes than Chump.
More voters voted for the Democrat.
More people voted for Democrats overall. |
Because voting for Democrats is GOOD! Because... let us never forget... Four legs GOOD, two legs Ba-aa-aa-aa-ad!
(That's my sheep sound.) |
Compared to voting for the GOP, voting for the Democratic Party is certainly good, if one is of the voting bloc you seem to hold dear.
I mean, it's not even close.
However, of course, if one is duped, or in the Top 2% of wealth, or racist, or self-loathing, or, as you say, a sheep, or, in the current vernacular, a Trumpanzee, then the GOP is golden. (no pee-pee tape pun intended) |
Oh God we KNOW, champ! Republicans are bad! Somebody give this guy a Nobel Prize in physics, or something. Because he's done his math and has pulled up just the right answer somehow from the vast here-to-fore unknowable expanse of universe that offers but two possible answers and BOTH OF THEM ARE RIGHT! What a discovery!
Jesus. God.
Now when do we get to talk about how FUCKED our side is? When do we get to EXAMINE it? All the mistakes and all the deceptions and the corruptions and decades of failures to deliver that lie at the heart of it all. Because I already know all about the Republicants or RepupugnantKlans or whatever the freak other of the hundreds of silly names you call them that all reflect the maturity level of a 15-year-old kid. |
Brilliant. Maturity, what YOU should demand in others.
It's for neophytes as yourself that my going back to these basics seems necessary.
That the Dems sold out to corporations is neither breaking news nor brilliant analysis.
Apparently you had the epiphany last year and have buried this place in an avalanche of verbosity ever since. I say congratulations, welcome aboard. |
Again, really? This...
Sshhh. We know all that, jammer. You just figured this out? Congratulations. Nothing new here. Not news.
Meanwhile, you come on this board and over and over and over again offer the perspective which I will sum up as. Republicans are bad.
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| hard to find a Republican who is not an asshole. |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Why do Republiscums continually lie about this bill? |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
or, as Republiscums call it, tax reform.
Trickle down doesn't work. Never has. Never will.
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| I'm amazed people are still duped. |
I'm amazed, too. Seriously. You post the same thing ad nauseum.
You'd have a better case against me if you just said something like, Whoa, jammer. Your shit is nuts bro. Can't be true. Seek help immediately.
Speaking of nuts.
| Quote: |
| That the Dems sold out to corporations is neither breaking news nor brilliant analysis. |
Yeah. Cause that's exactly what I've been saying.
You know what this place needs? It just came to me. It needs someone to say something like, oh I don't know, I had it there for second, wait, GOT IT!, Republicans are bad. |
Even you have to admit, it's just as brilliant as your "Dems are bad".
The good news is, it doesn't take me 1000 words to same the shit over and over again. At least I value the reader's time.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8231
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8231
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/08/17 12:58 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Poll: NFL drops as favorite US sport
| Quote: |
Just 42 percent of males aged 34-54 had a favorable view of the NFL in September, a 31-point drop from the 73 percent reported in the same poll in August.
Football now has the highest unfavorable rating of any major sport in the survey. |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 10/08/17 2:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
The funny part about it is that in 30 years all the people refusing to support Kaep and the kneeling players are going to be remembered as total assholes and complete embarrassments, much like how people standing in the way of the civil rights movement are remembered, like how the people who treated Tommie Smith and John Carlos are remembered.
All these things that seem so important to people today won't mean anything to future generations who will find it reprehensible.
Not to mention, it lets the NFL off the hook. The fall in ratings being tied to the protests makes the NFL look good, like they are taking a moral stand at the risk of their business. Instead of focusing on the major factors that have been around for years and are more likely to have long term effects than flashpan overreaction, things like head injuries, the length of the game and too many lengthy commercial breaks, the move to streaming services, the way the league is handling player discipline in an almost arbitrary way, and the dilution of their product by having nearly unwatchable games on National TV every Thursday, the narrative puts them on the moral highground and as time passes that is what people will remember.
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