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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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 Posted: 09/29/17 10:40 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| I have no idea what the eternally offended and virtue signalling classes mean by "white privilege", but I do know the phrase is so last year as to be obsolete. The politically correct nom du leftwinge is now "white supremacy". |
If you don't 'get' what "white privilege" is, OR think it's passe, you're more clueless than I feared. It's REAL. And it's not some passing meme that's waiting to be usurped by the next meme du jour, as you seem to imply with "white supremecy". They are intertwined, one the extension of the other.
And it isn't even about political correctness: That's like changing the phrase, "Indians were the victims of genocide" to say "Native aboriginals were the victims of genocide, to make it more palatable." NOOO, putting a pc spin on some things doesn't diminish or change the reality. Neither white privilege nor white supremacy are subject to being PC.....they ARE reality.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 09/30/17 12:47 pm ::: |
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I don't need Chomsky, Zinn, and Perrenti to know the score. I didn't know them when I was 12 and watched Smith and Carlos do their thing, know they were right and righteous, then took shit in my family and my town for thinking so. Didn't know of C,Z, and P when I stood, figuratively, w/ Ali when he refused induction, which received the same classic kneejerk reaction of "the poor, simple folk" who "just want an escape on Sundays."
Nor do I need those 3 truth speakers to know that even educated old white guys seem deliberately clueless re white privilege.
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stever
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 09/30/17 3:38 pm ::: |
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http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20864858/nba-memo-reinforces-rule-players-coaches-stand-national-anthem
| Quote: |
The NBA sent a memo late Friday to teams reinforcing its rule that players and coaches stand for the national anthem, suggesting other ways in which they might address the recent protest movement sweeping across the NFL and other sports.
The memo, a copy of which was obtained by ESPN, was distributed by deputy commissioner Mark Tatum. It instructs teams that "the league office will determine how to deal with any possible instance in which a player, coach, or trainer does not stand for the anthem." |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 09/30/17 4:53 pm ::: |
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| It might be worth noting here that, although Trump's approval ratings are fairly inelastic, they dropped slightly since attacking NFL players. The polls being reported now are primarily from before his handling of the Puerto Rican crisis became prominent in the national crisis, so that is not really baked into this dip.
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mercfan3
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hyperetic
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| Posted: 10/02/17 3:11 pm ::: |
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| Feelings about someone else's livelihood aside, how you take someone's non-violent use of freedom of speech granted them by the ultimate sacrifice of so many is not their fault. They have tried to explain the reasons for and intent of the protest but some refuse to go beyond the manner of protest. I've read posts from purported veterans railing against it but I have also read many more who support their right to protest as they have. Do the reasons behind the protest not even register? Those brave men and women gave their lives for ideals, values, and freedoms that many citizens are not receiving. I wonder do some people think that a flag and a song are more important than the lives of the people its supposed to represent? Protest has been an instrument of change in this country since its inception. It helps to get people's attention to say, "Hey, this is not right! Lets do something about it!" The protest has little to do with flag or anthem other than they symbolize the promise of an America not enjoyed by all its citizens. It has more to do with raising the alarm that there are things wrong in this country that need to be fixed. |
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hyperetic
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 10/02/17 4:37 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| The protest has little to do with flag or anthem other than they symbolize the promise of an America not enjoyed by all its citizens. It has more to do with raising the alarm that there are things wrong in this country that need to be fixed. |
Well said, hyperetic. And the above article is spot on. That there might be people here at Reb's who'd disagree is astounding.
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Rock Hard
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| Posted: 10/02/17 4:42 pm ::: |
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| The U.S. national anthem should not be played at sporting events within our country. Problem solved.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/02/17 6:17 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| The protest has little to do with flag or anthem other than they symbolize the promise of an America not enjoyed by all its citizens. It has more to do with raising the alarm that there are things wrong in this country that need to be fixed. |
Well said, hyperetic. And the above article is spot on. That there might be people here at Reb's who'd disagree is astounding. |
That last statement I would agree with. You guys have done a pretty good job of policing the hive mind up in here.
If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem?
And let’s get to the heart of the reason Colin Kaepernick initially took his (sorry) stance. Are there not legitimate differences in how Americans view the actions of the police as an institution in this country while carrying out the very difficult task society demands of them of trying to curtail the outrageous criminal activities and murder that is happening daily in largely black communities? Please don’t look at me, as is the common tactic here used against anyone who dares broach certain elements of an issue, I’m not at all suggesting there aren’t terrible problems and outcomes by too many terrible human beings wearing a police uniform. This was my politics and passion 20 years ago. I’m asking is there not a range of legitimate opinions on the police and their overall footprint in America that would result in there being ‘support’ for the police, as much or moreso than there is outrage or concern about the outliers that occur and result in the obvious unjustifiable deaths of African Americans?
I’m here telling you as a messenger who you will all probably want to shoot, that if you can’t admit that there are legitimate differences even about the core reasons behind these anthem protests and that there is a significant portion of this country which actually cares MORE about the welfare and safety of the police than they do knife-wielding teenagers or people who resist arrest or refuse to comply with the instructions of the police, and end up getting shot, then you probably are tilting at windmills on the further subject of the anthem protests and the reactions to them. So the player/protesters aren’t bringing to the attention of the public an issue of concern which needs to be publicized. They’re taking the moment of the anthem ritual and putting something political into the faces of their customers that those customers don’t necessarily agree with on the merits of the case. Which doubles the outrage. Get that shit out of here, is what they’re thinking. They don’t want to be reminding of any of this in the slightest during their enjoyment of sports, and especially, for a host of even more compelling reasons, not during the national anthem.
To this, you guys cry white privilege. I call it decorum. If I go to the rooftop of the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills for happy hour tonight, what would it be like if the server recited a list of current outrages or atrocities happening in the world before serving up my wine and appetizers? And then what if she took out a small American flag and spit on it? I’m using examples here that maybe you guys will object to. Not the same thing, you’ll say. But the anger is the same thing. As a customer, I would be pissed. If I were black, and somehow the white waiter’s issues were specific to my being black, or to him being white, I would be outraged.
Bottom line is that this is all very devisive. In form and content there is much here that divides America and Americans. I’ve made an argument in this post that takes on the content of the anthem protests. But make no mistake, the issue that is by orders of magnitude more problematic is the form the protests take. And that’s what makes it so politically disasterous as well. Americans are deeply interested in their sports stars. These athletes have, or had, an amazing amount of political capital with the sports loving public. Used wisely, it would have given a powerful voice to the issue of police abusing their authority and their license to use deadly force. But that’s not where we are at now. That’s not where this latest political misfire has left us as a nation.
Lastly, who gets to decide what offends them? Who gets to quantify the degree to which something is offensive? Who gets to say no, not this, this is something I, or we, simply can not handle? When African Americans decided that confederate flags had to go, go they did. Good riddance. Who other than a handful of racists or racism deniers could dare stand up and tell black people that they would have to continue to endure these objects in their field of view that were a symbol of their past enslavement and also that there were still plenty who would celebrate their enslavement once more?
The anthem protests are representative that African Americans (because most support the protests) are saying enough, no more unjustified police killings of our people by the police. But in their effort to fight on a legitimate issue they have utilized a tactic that is wholly and painfully unacceptable to those who are the intended audience for the protests. Whatever you do, don’t do this, has been the response of league’s fans. The Baltimore Ravens take a knee even BEFORE the anthem and they are mightily booed by their own fans. This is a message and a lesson that is being heard by the players and the league.
But in the end, mostly this is just a giant political failure. Badly played. Hardens hearts and sets progress back on this issue.
But I don’t know who can still believe in ‘progress’ with human beings at this point anyway. A deluded minority of well educated liberals. Maybe medical and technological progress, but the rest of this stuff is a disaster. We’re not going to work these things out. It’s not going to get better. The police are like the body’s immune system. It exists to battle intruders. Sometimes it goes haywire and attacks the body itself. But it’s not going away anytime soon.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/02/17 7:20 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| But I don’t know who can still believe in ‘progress’ with human beings at this point anyway |
We're making progress. It's slow and excruciating, as social change always is, but it's happening.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 10/02/17 9:55 pm ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
| The U.S. national anthem should not be played at sporting events within our country. Problem solved. |
Amen. It's nationalistic nonsense. And, the vocalists have really ruined it over the last decade and a half or so. It's hideous.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 10/02/17 10:04 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| The protest has little to do with flag or anthem other than they symbolize the promise of an America not enjoyed by all its citizens. It has more to do with raising the alarm that there are things wrong in this country that need to be fixed. |
Well said, hyperetic. And the above article is spot on. That there might be people here at Reb's who'd disagree is astounding. |
That last statement I would agree with. You guys have done a pretty good job of policing the hive mind up in here.
If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem?
And let’s get to the heart of the reason Colin Kaepernick initially took his (sorry) stance. Are there not legitimate differences in how Americans view the actions of the police as an institution in this country while carrying out the very difficult task society demands of them of trying to curtail the outrageous criminal activities and murder that is happening daily in largely black communities? Please don’t look at me, as is the common tactic here used against anyone who dares broach certain elements of an issue, I’m not at all suggesting there aren’t terrible problems and outcomes by too many terrible human beings wearing a police uniform. This was my politics and passion 20 years ago. I’m asking is there not a range of legitimate opinions on the police and their overall footprint in America that would result in there being ‘support’ for the police, as much or moreso than there is outrage or concern about the outliers that occur and result in the obvious unjustifiable deaths of African Americans?
I’m here telling you as a messenger who you will all probably want to shoot, that if you can’t admit that there are legitimate differences even about the core reasons behind these anthem protests and that there is a significant portion of this country which actually cares MORE about the welfare and safety of the police than they do knife-wielding teenagers or people who resist arrest or refuse to comply with the instructions of the police, and end up getting shot, then you probably are tilting at windmills on the further subject of the anthem protests and the reactions to them. So the player/protesters aren’t bringing to the attention of the public an issue of concern which needs to be publicized. They’re taking the moment of the anthem ritual and putting something political into the faces of their customers that those customers don’t necessarily agree with on the merits of the case. Which doubles the outrage. Get that shit out of here, is what they’re thinking. They don’t want to be reminding of any of this in the slightest during their enjoyment of sports, and especially, for a host of even more compelling reasons, not during the national anthem.
To this, you guys cry white privilege. I call it decorum. If I go to the rooftop of the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills for happy hour tonight, what would it be like if the server recited a list of current outrages or atrocities happening in the world before serving up my wine and appetizers? And then what if she took out a small American flag and spit on it? I’m using examples here that maybe you guys will object to. Not the same thing, you’ll say. But the anger is the same thing. As a customer, I would be pissed. If I were black, and somehow the white waiter’s issues were specific to my being black, or to him being white, I would be outraged.
Bottom line is that this is all very devisive. In form and content there is much here that divides America and Americans. I’ve made an argument in this post that takes on the content of the anthem protests. But make no mistake, the issue that is by orders of magnitude more problematic is the form the protests take. And that’s what makes it so politically disasterous as well. Americans are deeply interested in their sports stars. These athletes have, or had, an amazing amount of political capital with the sports loving public. Used wisely, it would have given a powerful voice to the issue of police abusing their authority and their license to use deadly force. But that’s not where we are at now. That’s not where this latest political misfire has left us as a nation.
Lastly, who gets to decide what offends them? Who gets to quantify the degree to which something is offensive? Who gets to say no, not this, this is something I, or we, simply can not handle? When African Americans decided that confederate flags had to go, go they did. Good riddance. Who other than a handful of racists or racism deniers could dare stand up and tell black people that they would have to continue to endure these objects in their field of view that were a symbol of their past enslavement and also that there were still plenty who would celebrate their enslavement once more?
The anthem protests are representative that African Americans (because most support the protests) are saying enough, no more unjustified police killings of our people by the police. But in their effort to fight on a legitimate issue they have utilized a tactic that is wholly and painfully unacceptable to those who are the intended audience for the protests. Whatever you do, don’t do this, has been the response of league’s fans. The Baltimore Ravens take a knee even BEFORE the anthem and they are mightily booed by their own fans. This is a message and a lesson that is being heard by the players and the league.
But in the end, mostly this is just a giant political failure. Badly played. Hardens hearts and sets progress back on this issue.
But I don’t know who can still believe in ‘progress’ with human beings at this point anyway. A deluded minority of well educated liberals. Maybe medical and technological progress, but the rest of this stuff is a disaster. We’re not going to work these things out. It’s not going to get better. The police are like the body’s immune system. It exists to battle intruders. Sometimes it goes haywire and attacks the body itself. But it’s not going away anytime soon. |
So ONE guy out of 100 KNEELED during the anthem. Do you really have a problem with that? You call his stance "sorry". Have you become an authoritarian in your old age, or was this always you?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/02/17 10:07 pm ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
| The U.S. national anthem should not be played at sporting events within our country. Problem solved. |
If it's Team USA playing (in any sport), then the anthem is appropriate
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cthskzfn
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pilight
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| Posted: 10/03/17 6:54 am ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
| The U.S. national anthem should not be played at sporting events within our country. Problem solved. |
How will not playing the national anthem before ball games eliminate ingrained racism, systemic injustice, and excessive police violence?
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pilight
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| Posted: 10/03/17 12:10 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem? |
They use the anthem because that's when they have the most attention on them. A protest won't be effective unless it is noticed.
The free speech of others hasn't been compromised. There's been no shortage of public criticism leveled at the players.
I agree it's a losing tactic in the long term. In the short run it's created far more visibility than anything else they could have done.
| Quote: |
| And let’s get to the heart of the reason Colin Kaepernick initially took his (sorry) stance. Are there not legitimate differences in how Americans view the actions of the police as an institution in this country while carrying out the very difficult task society demands of them of trying to curtail the outrageous criminal activities and murder that is happening daily in largely black communities? Please don’t look at me, as is the common tactic here used against anyone who dares broach certain elements of an issue, I’m not at all suggesting there aren’t terrible problems and outcomes by too many terrible human beings wearing a police uniform. This was my politics and passion 20 years ago. I’m asking is there not a range of legitimate opinions on the police and their overall footprint in America that would result in there being ‘support’ for the police, as much or moreso than there is outrage or concern about the outliers that occur and result in the obvious unjustifiable deaths of African Americans? |
Of course there are differences of opinion. If there weren't, the protest wouldn't be needed.
As far as "outliers", according to the latest FBI statistics a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person. That sounds like something that needs to be protested, IMO.
| Quote: |
| I’m here telling you as a messenger who you will all probably want to shoot, that if you can’t admit that there are legitimate differences even about the core reasons behind these anthem protests and that there is a significant portion of this country which actually cares MORE about the welfare and safety of the police than they do knife-wielding teenagers or people who resist arrest or refuse to comply with the instructions of the police, and end up getting shot, then you probably are tilting at windmills on the further subject of the anthem protests and the reactions to them. So the player/protesters aren’t bringing to the attention of the public an issue of concern which needs to be publicized. They’re taking the moment of the anthem ritual and putting something political into the faces of their customers that those customers don’t necessarily agree with on the merits of the case. Which doubles the outrage. Get that shit out of here, is what they’re thinking. They don’t want to be reminding of any of this in the slightest during their enjoyment of sports, and especially, for a host of even more compelling reasons, not during the national anthem. |
Yes, there are people who care more about the welfare and safety of the police than the people they harass. Much of that is brought on by the media, who always portray the cops in the most favorable light no matter what they do.
| Quote: |
| To this, you guys cry white privilege. I call it decorum. If I go to the rooftop of the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills for happy hour tonight, what would it be like if the server recited a list of current outrages or atrocities happening in the world before serving up my wine and appetizers? And then what if she took out a small American flag and spit on it? I’m using examples here that maybe you guys will object to. Not the same thing, you’ll say. But the anger is the same thing. As a customer, I would be pissed. If I were black, and somehow the white waiter’s issues were specific to my being black, or to him being white, I would be outraged. |
Your example is going to the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills and you wonder why people say you're privileged...
It's not a good example in any event. If the players were protesting during the game, that would be one thing. A closer example would be if the waiter stuck an insert in the menu describing the outrages and atrocities,
| Quote: |
| Bottom line is that this is all very devisive. In form and content there is much here that divides America and Americans. I’ve made an argument in this post that takes on the content of the anthem protests. But make no mistake, the issue that is by orders of magnitude more problematic is the form the protests take. And that’s what makes it so politically disasterous as well. Americans are deeply interested in their sports stars. These athletes have, or had, an amazing amount of political capital with the sports loving public. Used wisely, it would have given a powerful voice to the issue of police abusing their authority and their license to use deadly force. But that’s not where we are at now. That’s not where this latest political misfire has left us as a nation. |
It is not at all divisive. The people protesting and those criticizing them were already divided.
These athletes aren't politicians. They're not trying to spin anything. To say they shouldn't speak out in this way because people will be offended is saying Ali should have let himself get drafted.
| Quote: |
| Lastly, who gets to decide what offends them? Who gets to quantify the degree to which something is offensive? Who gets to say no, not this, this is something I, or we, simply can not handle? When African Americans decided that confederate flags had to go, go they did. Good riddance. Who other than a handful of racists or racism deniers could dare stand up and tell black people that they would have to continue to endure these objects in their field of view that were a symbol of their past enslavement and also that there were still plenty who would celebrate their enslavement once more? |
Confederate flags haven't gone anywhere. I see one on every street, just like always. They've been removed from some government buildings is all.
| Quote: |
| The anthem protests are representative that African Americans (because most support the protests) are saying enough, no more unjustified police killings of our people by the police. But in their effort to fight on a legitimate issue they have utilized a tactic that is wholly and painfully unacceptable to those who are the intended audience for the protests. Whatever you do, don’t do this, has been the response of league’s fans. The Baltimore Ravens take a knee even BEFORE the anthem and they are mightily booed by their own fans. This is a message and a lesson that is being heard by the players and the league. |
Right. The people booing aren't doing it because of some perceived disrespect of the anthem. If they were, they'd be OK with the team kneeling before the it started. They're booing because they don't want to be reminded of a problem that doesn't directly affect them. The ability to ignore the extraordinary rate at which cops kill black people is their privilege, and they want it back.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 10/03/17 12:19 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem? |
<b>They use the anthem because that's when they have the most attention on them. A protest won't be effective unless it is noticed.
The free speech of others hasn't been compromised. There's been no shortage of public criticism leveled at the players.
I agree it's a losing tactic in the long term. In the short run it's created far more visibility than anything else they could have done.</b>
|
Thanks, pilight. That is the point I would have countered with also.
jammerbirdi, name me one thing, just one, that would garner the amount of attention to the issue being protested than these protests. Yes, the true meaning of the protests can get obscured to a certain extent by "patriotic" backlash whether purposely or not but even so the protest of racism and injustice can not to totally divorced from the conversation. I would submit to you that there has never been a form of protest deemed acceptable by people of color. NEVER. Someone always finds fault with it. |
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 10/03/17 1:24 pm ::: |
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| I was gonna respond, but pilight killed it.
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pilight
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| Posted: 10/03/17 4:05 pm ::: |
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Civil-Rights Protests Have Never Been Popular
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/colin-kaepernick/541845/
| Quote: |
| Kaepernick did not inaugurate his protest in hopes of helping elect more centrist Democrats, or any kind of Democrat. That said, he was not immune to compromise. When his initial efforts were met with disdain and deemed disrespectful, he actually consulted a group of veterans to see how he might better pursue a protest. That is the origin of Kaepernick kneeling, and the fact that it too has been met with scoffs points to deeper problem. If young people attempting to board a bus are unacceptable, if gathering on the National Mall is verboten, if preaching nonviolence gets you harassed by your own government and then killed, if a protest founded in consultation with military veterans is offensive, then what specific manner of protest is white America willing to endure? |
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 10/03/17 6:42 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem? |
They use the anthem because that's when they have the most attention on them. A protest won't be effective unless it is noticed.
The free speech of others hasn't been compromised. There's been no shortage of public criticism leveled at the players.
I agree it's a losing tactic in the long term. In the short run it's created far more visibility than anything else they could have done.
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I was gonna respond, but pilight killed it. |
He did. See bolded. I would disagree however with pilight's seemingly more positive assessment of the short term effectiveness.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| And let’s get to the heart of the reason Colin Kaepernick initially took his (sorry) stance. Are there not legitimate differences in how Americans view the actions of the police as an institution in this country while carrying out the very difficult task society demands of them of trying to curtail the outrageous criminal activities and murder that is happening daily in largely black communities? Please don’t look at me, as is the common tactic here used against anyone who dares broach certain elements of an issue, I’m not at all suggesting there aren’t terrible problems and outcomes by too many terrible human beings wearing a police uniform. This was my politics and passion 20 years ago. I’m asking is there not a range of legitimate opinions on the police and their overall footprint in America that would result in there being ‘support’ for the police, as much or moreso than there is outrage or concern about the outliers that occur and result in the obvious unjustifiable deaths of African Americans? |
Of course there are differences of opinion. If there weren't, the protest wouldn't be needed.
As far as "outliers", according to the latest FBI statistics a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person. That sounds like something that needs to be protested, IMO. |
I'm not suggesting there isn't a need for protest. But here's what are you doing in this last paragraph. You're digging into often deceptive statistics which are difficult for so many people to cipher. You're hoping, because I know you, that I'll take a quick superficial glance at it and misread it.
So it sounds like you're saying, pilight, that a/any single black man is less likely to engage in any act of violent criminal behavior than it is for a/any single cop to kill an unarmed person.
Is that, even in your mind, relevant?
lol. Why are you playing a game? Compare the number of violent crimes committed by African Americans with the number of instances when police officers have killed unarmed citizens! Jesus. Pull up that number, please? I won't be holding my breath. Can you even imagine what it is?
The disparity in the forces society has employed to mitigate criminal and especially violent criminal behavior in this country, and number of criminal and violent criminal acts actually perpetrated by, because we are talking about black people, black people, would be so outrageously large that you wouldn't dream of posting it here in this thread. Because cops... respond to crimes. One cop, many crimes. Like one person working the front desk of a hotel has to deal with a flow of individuals standing in front of them or on the phone.
So my question to you is, why would you tie a sentence up in a knot like you have to paint a deceptive picture? Yeah, I won't be holding my breath waiting for that answer either. (You were probably hoping to just say, oh jammer, once again, you don't understand statistics.) lol.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| I’m here telling you as a messenger who you will all probably want to shoot, that if you can’t admit that there are legitimate differences even about the core reasons behind these anthem protests and that there is a significant portion of this country which actually cares MORE about the welfare and safety of the police than they do knife-wielding teenagers or people who resist arrest or refuse to comply with the instructions of the police, and end up getting shot, then you probably are tilting at windmills on the further subject of the anthem protests and the reactions to them. So the player/protesters aren’t bringing to the attention of the public an issue of concern which needs to be publicized. They’re taking the moment of the anthem ritual and putting something political into the faces of their customers that those customers don’t necessarily agree with on the merits of the case. Which doubles the outrage. Get that shit out of here, is what they’re thinking. They don’t want to be reminding of any of this in the slightest during their enjoyment of sports, and especially, for a host of even more compelling reasons, not during the national anthem. |
Yes, there are people who care more about the welfare and safety of the police than the people they harass. Much of that is brought on by the media, who always portray the cops in the most favorable light no matter what they do. |
There are? That's quite an admission. I would suggest there are ALSO a lot of people who care more about the welfare and safety of the men and women in uniform who hold the line and keep them safe, in the face of possible death, against criminal behavior, violent and otherwise . So, I hope you would allow that there's that perspective and not just the cheering of harassment as you've suggested.
I guess you don't see this other politically overwhelming number of folks or you diminish their perspective as being privileged, racist, clueless, etc. I don't know. But there's just a vast number of Americans, always was and always will be, who view the police as being the protectors of their lives and their property. It's what we pay taxes for. When those people see a 6'2" man on the street with a knife and police around, their concern is for the safety of the police officers. Is the person moving, at all, does the person continue to possess the knife, etc? I hope those police officers are going to be alright, is what people think when they see those images from a dash cam. They don't know that the person with the knife is a big 16-year-old kid. Something the officers probably don't know either.
Not that it matters that much. The person is there, has a knife, has not discarded the knife in the presence of officers, and continues to move. Period. Dead kid. A public outcry. But back home in Indiana, people see an interchange like that and say, hmm, unfortunate. Maybe something could have been better. But it wasn't my life on the line and the kid had a knife and was moving toward officers. (I'm talking about the famous Chicago case from a couple of years ago.)
My point here is that people start off with, not an assumption of guilt, but with a set of standard queries in their mind about the individuals who police engage with on the street. First and foremost, always, is the person complying with the instructions of the officers. Or, if there hasn't been time for that kind of an interaction to have taken place and the officers are facing what any reasonable person would consider as danger, does that person pose a threat, in any way, to the safety of the officers.
Again. I'm trying to be a messenger of sorts here. Do I personally think that police procedures are acceptable? lol Dudes. I don't even think police should be determining their own procedures! People think officers should get better training. I'm like, what they are being trained to DO is wrong.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| To this, you guys cry white privilege. I call it decorum. If I go to the rooftop of the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills for happy hour tonight, what would it be like if the server recited a list of current outrages or atrocities happening in the world before serving up my wine and appetizers? And then what if she took out a small American flag and spit on it? I’m using examples here that maybe you guys will object to. Not the same thing, you’ll say. But the anger is the same thing. As a customer, I would be pissed. If I were black, and somehow the white waiter’s issues were specific to my being black, or to him being white, I would be outraged. |
Your example is going to the Waldorf Astoria in Beverly Hills and you wonder why people say you're privileged... |
Other than the political attachment of white privilege to every breath I take I didn't see anyone call me privileged. Nevertheless, it's a needless personal swipe, pilight. And so off the mark in my case. Son of a steelworker with a sixth grade education and a mom who graduated the first grade. mrs jammer grew up in the projects and was HUNGRY as a child. As one of eight kids, she knew HUNGER. The first time I ever ate dinner with her family they put out a piece of round steak that I could have eaten by myself. For like a dozen people. I was given a piece of meat that was about the size of a teaspoon. I will never forget the stares I got from her many brothers when I reached for more. lol.
You think I can't smell people here whose daddies were doctors?
| pilight wrote: |
| It's not a good example in any event. If the players were protesting during the game, that would be one thing. A closer example would be if the waiter stuck an insert in the menu describing the outrages and atrocities, |
Your good example, my bad example? Closer examples. Seriously. You can miss my point by that much? To utilize that time and space wherein I'm hungry and want a glass a wine to make a personal political statement DESIGNED to upset me WOULD upset me, and you by the way, that's the point of the example, good or bad or less perfect than yours, in your eyes, whatever, Mary. Nice try at dodging the point but I'll remind you that it is the anger on the part of the paying customer that I'm suggesting would naturally result when someone imposes an unpleasant political agenda into a moment where there is a commercial exchange wherein people have an expectation that the experience they are paying for will have nothing of the sort.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Bottom line is that this is all very devisive. In form and content there is much here that divides America and Americans. I’ve made an argument in this post that takes on the content of the anthem protests. But make no mistake, the issue that is by orders of magnitude more problematic is the form the protests take. And that’s what makes it so politically disasterous as well. Americans are deeply interested in their sports stars. These athletes have, or had, an amazing amount of political capital with the sports loving public. Used wisely, it would have given a powerful voice to the issue of police abusing their authority and their license to use deadly force. But that’s not where we are at now. That’s not where this latest political misfire has left us as a nation. |
It is not at all divisive. The people protesting and those criticizing them were already divided. |
Seriously? I'm kind of speechless here. And also at the fact that people are cheering this as you having 'killed it.'
Sooo.... let's see. The people protesting, in this instance, are NFL players. A lot of the people criticizing their protests, booing, are fans of the WNB... wait... NCA... no that's not it. Hmm. Oh yeah. THE NFL!!! They are already divided, you say? Well, knowing you, you're probably focusing on the railings between the stands and the field? Because from where I've been sitting, the people LOVE their NFL teams. Love them like hardly anything else. God, Country, Family, Football. So there is and has been a marriage between black athletes and white sports fans that brings these two elements of our nation's demographic together. Unifies them (FOR REAL) behind a single minded concept. Football. Team. etc.
Yea, look at pilight, he killed it. So I don't have to type anything.
| pilight wrote: |
| These athletes aren't politicians. They're not trying to spin anything. To say they shouldn't speak out in this way because people will be offended is saying Ali should have let himself get drafted. |
Come on. You're wasting my time. This isn't even a lucid comparison. Completely unlike things. Ali made a decision to harm himself and his career, sacrifice all of it, to take a stand against the war. It was taken away from the sport. Away from the product he produced as an athlete.
The athletes, as I said earlier, could do so much with their amazing status. Lebron. Curry. etc. Hold a modern day version of the Ali summit. Book a venue and spend three days there with speakers and panels and invite not just the media but political leaders etc. There's so much that can be done the question does beg itself as to why these ultra high-profile sports stars haven't actually done anything like that. Whey they let a QB take a knee last year and then just kind of mealy-mouth a budding support for that effort.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Lastly, who gets to decide what offends them? Who gets to quantify the degree to which something is offensive? Who gets to say no, not this, this is something I, or we, simply can not handle? When African Americans decided that confederate flags had to go, go they did. Good riddance. Who other than a handful of racists or racism deniers could dare stand up and tell black people that they would have to continue to endure these objects in their field of view that were a symbol of their past enslavement and also that there were still plenty who would celebrate their enslavement once more? |
Confederate flags haven't gone anywhere. I see one on every street, just like always. They've been removed from some government buildings is all. |
This is your version of disagreeing with a statement I made? Why? What's your point here? That I'm wrong or something. Yeah, I know there's a lot of yahoos in this country. I didn't mean to imply that they were disappeared from the face of the earth. But they are now way way on their way out of being utilized in any official capacity on seals, etc. either as it applies to the governments or
public and most private institutions.
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| The anthem protests are representative that African Americans (because most support the protests) are saying enough, no more unjustified police killings of our people by the police. But in their effort to fight on a legitimate issue they have utilized a tactic that is wholly and painfully unacceptable to those who are the intended audience for the protests. Whatever you do, don’t do this, has been the response of league’s fans. The Baltimore Ravens take a knee even BEFORE the anthem and they are mightily booed by their own fans. This is a message and a lesson that is being heard by the players and the league. |
Right. The people booing aren't doing it because of some perceived disrespect of the anthem. If they were, they'd be OK with the team kneeling before the it started. They're booing because they don't want to be reminded of a problem that doesn't directly affect them. The ability to ignore the extraordinary rate at which cops kill black people is their privilege, and they want it back. |
You say so. You're telling them why they are doing things, a common practice I remarked on earlier in this thread.They say it's out of disrespect to the flag and the national anthem ritual, but you say no, it's something else. In doing so you deny people the very important self-determination of their own motives. And feelings. I've already covered in my last post you're "killing" here to the reality that people are responding to the both the form and the content of the protests. I've also stated that an overwhelming portion of the reasons for the push back by the NFL consuming public and the players taking a knee is due to the form these protests are taking. You deny that as well and for some weak reasoning that you suggest is based on the content of the protests.
That's a big problem here, I think. Pretty myopic perspective as it exists here on the board. If you all really can't see that not standing for the national anthem as a protest against the police would be taken as an unacceptable affront by the inherently patriotic NFL fan-base purely on the fact that it is taking place during the national anthem alone then I don't know that I can ever get through to you guys.
Hopefully people will someday learn by winning and losing political fights.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/03/17 7:04 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| If the protests have little to do with the anthem, as you suggest, hyperetic, then don’t use the anthem ritual as the vehicle of your protest. But that’s not what’s happening. The perception of many that this is an unacceptable display of disrespect makes it a losing tactic politically anyway. Moreover, the free speech of the majority of the public or even the more vocal and demonstrative of those who were outraged by last weekend is given status that is less than what is attributed to the players. Does not the protestations of so many rise to the level of protest in the eyes of those whose sympathies are with the players who refused to stand for the national anthem? |
<b>They use the anthem because that's when they have the most attention on them. A protest won't be effective unless it is noticed.
The free speech of others hasn't been compromised. There's been no shortage of public criticism leveled at the players.
I agree it's a losing tactic in the long term. In the short run it's created far more visibility than anything else they could have done.</b>
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Thanks, pilight. That is the point I would have countered with also.
jammerbirdi, name me one thing, just one, that would garner the amount of attention to the issue being protested than these protests. Yes, the true meaning of the protests can get obscured to a certain extent by "patriotic" backlash whether purposely or not but even so the protest of racism and injustice can not to totally divorced from the conversation. I would submit to you that there has never been a form of protest deemed acceptable by people of color. NEVER. Someone always finds fault with it. |
You want attention? Or postitive results?
You want negative attention that garners resentment and division? You got it. Because there's a formula for that in America. Fuck with the flag or the national anthem. You're toast. Next!
So 'someone' always finds fault with any and every form of protest by black people and you are with that attempting to support your assertion that there has never been a form of protest by POC that has been 'deemed acceptable', I'm going to assume you mean by white people?
Yes. There are and always will be racists out there. So you seem to be using those racists to characterize all white people. Incredibly.  So let me marry your position in helping to provide you with an answer to your question of me. Name one, you say? How about scores? On the nightly news in the 1960s we saw scores of incidents of peaceful protest by black civil rights leaders who were set upon by police. THAT, I would suggest, changed hearts and minds in America. There was the March on Washington. MLK's speech. There was Muhammad Ali's stance on the war and civil rights: the use of his charisma, rhetorical and oratorical talents, and his personal integrity and self-sacrifice. There are and would be many other examples and stances taken by entertainers and educator, etc.
So what could have been done that would have been better than taking a knee during the national anthem?
How about a Colin Kaepernick summit? Like Jim Brown organized the Ali summit. Why not have the biggest names in American sports, Lebron, etc. convene a Kaepernick summit where they all get together, as I've suggested, and put their names and their star power behind both the reason for Kaep's actions and the man himself?
Honestly. I don't think many of you guys, especially you, hyperetic, are limited in terms of your imagination and creativity. I'm sure you could come up with more and better tactics yourselves.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 10/03/17 7:28 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
[
You say so. You're telling them why they are doing things, a common practice I remarked on earlier in this thread.They say it's out of disrespect to the flag and the national anthem ritual, but you say no, it's something else. In doing so you deny people the very important self-determination of their own motives. |
The problem was that these people didn't have an issue with people standing in line to buy a beer, or going to use the bathroom, or slowly filtering in to the stadium, before it was pointed out that this was a protest. It isn't the act, but that the act is a pointed one that is bothering people. No one even noticed he sat for the first few times.
It wasn't until people equated this act with spitting on dead soliders that it became a big deal--and yet that is just as much an issue of "telling [him] why [he is] doing things". He says his act is symbolic and not about disrespect, yet it is being read one specific way wven though it has no history of that. As I pointed out earlier, if it were an issue they felt strongly about they would accept the protest and give it a more favorable interpretation.
Does everyone even know why he chose to kneel? At first he just sat. But then once it gained attention a former NFL player who wad also a veteran penned an open letter to him saying that he was coming off as disrespectful, as if he couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge something that people died for. In response, Colin invited the man to his place, and they spent a bunch of time discussing the issue. They discussed different ways that Colin could make his "stand" without being disrespectful to those who have died for the country. Ultimately, the veteran pointed out that as part of military funerals when the flag is presented to the next of kin, it is done so by a kneeling servicemember. So together they decided that instead of sitting Colin would kneel with head bowed in honor of the dead while still serving as a reminder that the country has not lived up to the promise it made those dead soliders.
But, you know, it's disrespectful.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/03/17 8:21 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
So ONE guy out of 100 KNEELED during the anthem. Do you really have a problem with that? You call his stance "sorry". Have you become an authoritarian in your old age, or was this always you? |
I've sworn off responding to you because I think you have been trolling me. Your tactic, I thought, has been to intentionally mischaracterize what I'm posting. But after reading this, I'm not sure you're doing anything intentional. So let me untangle your thoughts.
Did I really have a problem with Colin Kaepernick taking a knee last year during the national anthem?
No. In fact, I've been pretty pissed off that he wasn't on any NFL roster for months. Anyone seeing things clearly might have also noticed how angry I have been in my opinions against the owners and the commissioner as expressed in this very thread. You can't know that I've been taking the temperature for a while now of the folks back home in terms of Kaepernick's possibly becoming a Pittsburgh Steeler. But you might have surmised my leaning in that direction when I offered my suggested fix the NFL should employ that resulted in Kaepernick, voila!, ending up on MY team. 
So, the (sorry) thing. I don't like to use cliches like, pardon the pun, or irony intended/unintended, etc. So I prefer to just insert a quick 'sorry', in parenthesis, when I think that I'm among people who are smart enough to instantly 'get' it. But this being the internet...
So let me say this to everyone here. I look at Area 51 here on Rebkell's as a meeting of lefties. Yeah, there's some conservatives here. But I'm primarily about talking to and arguing with my own kind. I feel like I'm one of the old guys who is sitting at the meeting saying things like, that's a bad idea, that's going to backfire, that won't work, etc.
Things I point out are, IMO, uncomfortable truths. And, in the context of people suggesting things like discontinuing the tradition of playing the national anthem, I'd say it's pretty predictable that some people here handle uncomfortable truths better than others.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 10/03/17 8:40 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
[
You say so. You're telling them why they are doing things, a common practice I remarked on earlier in this thread.They say it's out of disrespect to the flag and the national anthem ritual, but you say no, it's something else. In doing so you deny people the very important self-determination of their own motives. |
The problem was that these people didn't have an issue with people standing in line to buy a beer, or going to use the bathroom, or slowly filtering in to the stadium, before it was pointed out that this was a protest. It isn't the act, but that the act is a pointed one that is bothering people. No one even noticed he sat for the first few times.
It wasn't until people equated this act with spitting on dead soliders that it became a big deal--and yet that is just as much an issue of "telling [him] why [he is] doing things". He says his act is symbolic and not about disrespect, yet it is being read one specific way wven though it has no history of that. As I pointed out earlier, if it were an issue they felt strongly about they would accept the protest and give it a more favorable interpretation.
Does everyone even know why he chose to kneel? At first he just sat. But then once it gained attention a former NFL player who wad also a veteran penned an open letter to him saying that he was coming off as disrespectful, as if he couldn't even be bothered to acknowledge something that people died for. In response, Colin invited the man to his place, and they spent a bunch of time discussing the issue. They discussed different ways that Colin could make his "stand" without being disrespectful to those who have died for the country. Ultimately, the veteran pointed out that as part of military funerals when the flag is presented to the next of kin, it is done so by a kneeling servicemember. So together they decided that instead of sitting Colin would kneel with head bowed in honor of the dead while still serving as a reminder that the country has not lived up to the promise it made those dead soliders.
But, you know, it's disrespectful. |
Again, you guys dig DEEPER into detail and technicalities over an issue that is ALL pure surface politics.
In politics, you are dealing, and communicating, with such vast swaths of America, that include so many people who will never ever EVER know the details you are hanging your arguments from. There's nothing you can do to rehabilitate Colin Kaepernick at this point. He is toast as a ballplayer. He needs to morph entirely now into a political symbol. If he doesn't have the right voice, though, he will fail at that. Because this is hard stuff, too.
The going to the bathroom thing. Seriously? I'm intentionally sitting, kneeling, or not coming onto the field, for the national anthem, and that's due to a political protest I'm making. And you're saying why aren't people p'd off because people are still not in their seats for the anthem, buying snacks and drinks, or answering to nature's call in the restrooms?
DUDES! WTF?!?!
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