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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 09/24/17 5:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Trump needs to stop using Twitter and learn to shut up sometimes. If he continues with his current rhetoric he is going to ignite a race war in our country or a nuclear war with North Korea. Rolling Eyes



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jmpenn90



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PostPosted: 09/24/17 5:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.

Holding them back? Some are being murdered by cops because of the color of their skin. And then the cop gets found not guilty. I am a white woman and I see minorities treated different all the time. I see a black woman getting her receipt checked when leaving and then mine isn't. I see them asking for someone's ID but then they don't ask for mine. I heard a man tell an Indian woman at Subway to go back to her country because she had an accent. A friend's elderly mom was yelled at to go back to her country because she was taking too long to go across the crosswalk. She is Indian and had just had a stroke. A black friend had a stranger leave a threatening, racist note on her car that she found after shopping one day. These are all things that I have witnessed or that happened to a friend this year alone. The things happening on a national level are terrifying and that is why people kneel.




Last edited by jmpenn90 on 09/24/17 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 09/24/17 5:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Or athletes could simply stick to being athletes and not interject politics into the game...


Politics have been a part of sports as long as professional sports leagues have existed. Longer than that, even.


Thanks, Silky, though it's a shame you had to take time to say this. But, wait: I guess there were no "politics" in sports when professional athletes had no unions or bargaining rights, when African Americans were banned from the major professional sports, when women's sports barely existed and were mainly treated as a joke, when the pro-Nazi Avery Brundage ran the U.S. Olympic Committee for decades. For some, the day-to-day proceedings of injustice aren't called "politics." It's only "politics" when someone challenges injustice.


To break it down even further, injustice has been so institutionally normalized in this country, that even acknowledging that injustice exists has become "political."



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caune



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PostPosted: 09/24/17 6:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer.

Just an FYI. He was actually prosecuted in New York for discriminatory rental practices in the 70's or 80's. So yes they kind of did call him a bigot



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/24/17 6:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Or athletes could simply stick to being athletes and not interject politics into the game...


Politics have been a part of sports as long as professional sports leagues have existed. Longer than that, even.


Thanks, Silky, though it's a shame you had to take time to say this. But, wait: I guess there were no "politics" in sports when professional athletes had no unions or bargaining rights, when African Americans were banned from the major professional sports, when women's sports barely existed and were mainly treated as a joke, when the pro-Nazi Avery Brundage ran the U.S. Olympic Committee for decades. For some, the day-to-day proceedings of injustice aren't called "politics." It's only "politics" when someone challenges injustice.


To break it down even further, injustice has been so institutionally normalized in this country, that even acknowledging that injustice exists has become "political."


Exactly right.

This new piece in the New York Times well addresses the issue of politics in football:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/24/opinion/football-nfl-take-the-knee-trump.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/24/17 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer.

Just an FYI. He was actually prosecuted in New York for discriminatory rental practices in the 70's or 80's. So yes they kind of did call him a bigot


Mr. Kramer's statement here is giving me a well-needed laugh. There has been SO much publicity--and not just in New York City--about the shoddy and racist real estate practices of Donald Trump and, before him, his father, the late Fred Trump. But thanks, caune, for the FYI you posted.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 6585
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 09/24/17 7:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Or athletes could simply stick to being athletes and not interject politics into the game...


Politics have been a part of sports as long as professional sports leagues have existed. Longer than that, even.


Thanks, Silky, though it's a shame you had to take time to say this. But, wait: I guess there were no "politics" in sports when professional athletes had no unions or bargaining rights, when African Americans were banned from the major professional sports, when women's sports barely existed and were mainly treated as a joke, when the pro-Nazi Avery Brundage ran the U.S. Olympic Committee for decades. For some, the day-to-day proceedings of injustice aren't called "politics." It's only "politics" when someone challenges injustice.


To break it down even further, injustice has been so institutionally normalized in this country, that even acknowledging that injustice exists has become "political."

Very well said.



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josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 1:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.

Holding them back? Some are being murdered by cops because of the color of their skin. And then the cop gets found not guilty. I am a white woman and I see minorities treated different all the time. I see a black woman getting her receipt checked when leaving and then mine isn't. I see them asking for someone's ID but then they don't ask for mine. I heard a man tell an Indian woman at Subway to go back to her country because she had an accent. A friend's elderly mom was yelled at to go back to her country because she was taking too long to go across the crosswalk. She is Indian and had just had a stroke. A black friend had a stranger leave a threatening, racist note on her car that she found after shopping one day. These are all things that I have witnessed or that happened to a friend this year alone. The things happening on a national level are terrifying and that is why people kneel.



The last major police shooting I heard about was a Somali-American who killed a white woman. The MPLS PD is run by a democratic machine and the city is controlled by a very diverse government. Baltimore, where another high profile police killing took place has been in the hands of African American politicians for many years. Their police department is majority African American. Whole lot of racism there or a whole lot of incompetence? Far too many people are killed by police I agree. But plenty of them are white as well.
If you see someone pulling a stunt like you described above did you report it to the manager of the store? If you accuse a retail employee of racist practices and report them their manager will generally speaking very quickly secret shop them and nail them if they are found to be discriminating. If they don't take it to the next level and let them know you aren't shopping there again and will tell other people to avoid them as well. Did you stand up for the woman being yelled at? Sounds like you live in a very unpleasant area if people leave threatening notes on other people's cars. Personally that specific example sounds about as believable to me as a Lena Dunham tweet. Where I live people generally don't pull that garbage. If I saw it I would damn well say something. And I live in a very non diverse place and I don't really care one way or another. But racism is not tolerated here either overtly or covertly.

Once again I am asking for someone to show a good example of how the US has a system in place that is designed to rob POC of a shot in life. No one has come up with anything yet. A few anecdotes and life experiences on a personal level. How is kneeling for the national anthem going to change a few people's hearts? Whoever is president has nothing to do with that. People didn't want Trump? Why didn't the DNC find a decent candidate then? Me personally I haven't registered to vote in fourteen years because I don't want to get called for jury duty. Still waiting for those examples and more importantly an answer as to what these people kneeling want.


WfanFrJmp



Joined: 24 May 2016
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PostPosted: 09/25/17 5:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A good example?!!! Confused

There are countless! Many of us are too tired to keep having to explain this…particularly “today”!! Please take a little time to educate yourself and rather than disregarding the things you don’t like or disposing of them because they don’t happen to you, try to open your heart and your mind to understand them. It always amazes me to see the types of folks who love to be entertained by athletes but cannot empathize at all. Simply by being a women’s basketball fan, I’ve learned about many issues that do not impact me directly but because I love and support these ladies, I understand and empathize with them on issues that concern them. Art and entertainment have a way of doing that…at least it CAN, if you are open. At one time, I ignorantly believed that a women’s basketball site was a relatively safe space of allies because we are supporting, loving and analyzing a league of women...a league that btw, is over 80% black. I haven’t weighed in on these discussions because seeing the foolishness coming from the very top and simply looking at the news is constantly stressful and disgusting! However, to come here and other sports outlets to basically see folks saying entertain me but don’t be fully human, don’t hurt, don’t empathize, don’t use your platform for anything other than to hit a shot, sing, dance or catch a ball…is disappointing to say the very least.

Amazingly enough, this 97 year old vet gets it!: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/97-year-old-wwii-vet-goes-viral-taking-knee-support-nfl-players-041427597.html

Thank you Mr. Middlemas!


Mysticsfan12



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 09/25/17 6:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jet Jaguar wrote:
This is a pic of almost the entire WNBA and most of it's fans:




Can anyone say: Groupthink? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Cool! Represents the uniqueness of us all Cool



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justinabina



Joined: 19 May 2014
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PostPosted: 09/25/17 6:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Once again I am asking for someone to show a good example of how the US has a system in place that is designed to rob POC of a shot in life. No one has come up with anything yet. A few anecdotes and life experiences on a personal level. How is kneeling for the national anthem going to change a few people's hearts? Whoever is president has nothing to do with that. People didn't want Trump? Why didn't the DNC find a decent candidate then? Me personally I haven't registered to vote in fourteen years because I don't want to get called for jury duty. Still waiting for those examples and more importantly an answer as to what these people kneeling want.


If you are actually looking for resources on this, consider watching the documentary film 13th. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk. The film looks at the loophole in the 13th Amendment that has allowed for "involuntary servitude" (slavery) of people convicted of a crime, looks at the disproportionate numbers of African Americans in the U.S. prison system, and effectively demonstrates that a form of slavery - in the sense of exploitation of African American labour - continues to this day.

Here is a LA Times article examining research that shows geographical correlation between white racism/stereotyping (even if not overt) and the number of African Americans killed by police: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-racism-whites-blacks-20170727-story.html.

If you are looking for recent individual cases of African Americans wrongly convicted or killed by police, look up Kalief Browder, Philando Castile, Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, Freddie Gray, Michael, Brown, Alton Sterling, Walter Scott and Rekia Boyd, to name only a few.

I'm not sure that you're actually looking for resources, though. It does seem you've neglected to respond to several thoughtful comments above.

By the way, I'm confused about you asking the poster you've quoted whether they spoke up about the racist incident they witnessed. Whether the poster spoke up or not, the racist incident occurred, and that's a problem.


justinabina



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 6:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mysticsfan12 wrote:
Cool! Represents the uniqueness of us all Cool


And the strength! AVALANCHE!!! I love it. Very Happy


Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 15262
Location: Queens


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PostPosted: 09/25/17 7:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Simple solution is to get rid of playing the national anthem at games. It was started in WWII to drum up patriotism and then didn't stop (as it had when they did in in WWI). I do not like it when I have come to a college game and someone tells me I need to stand up, remove any hat, and turn towards a flag. It's a sporting event, not an inauguration.

Also, get rid of sports teams going to the White House for a photo op. Have White House photo ops with people who have done something extraordinary to help in their communities.


I like the first idea of this very much. The second, I partially agree with; why not do both? If nothing else, maybe it would keep the President (whoever is in office at the time, whatever their politics are) too busy to interfere in other branches of government.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 7:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justinabina wrote:
Mysticsfan12 wrote:
Cool! Represents the uniqueness of us all Cool


And the strength! AVALANCHE!!! I love it. Very Happy


The photo of the snowflakes is beautiful. I'm proud to be one of the snowflakes who post on this board. I learn a lot about women's basketball and about political issues from the rest of you snowflakes.

As the old song goes, "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!"



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
pilight



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Posts: 55146
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PostPosted: 09/25/17 8:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's amusing that one of the people who's offended by the protests is calling others snowflakes



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 8:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
It's amusing that one of the people who's offended by the protests is calling others snowflakes


I was looking at the photo that pilight has. Seems like a good time to post a video of Country Joe and the Fish singing about Vietnam at Woodstock. Three-minute video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qPUJhy0Dz4

It was at that time that I first rejected "My Country, Right or Wrong." I hadn't thought of myself as a snowflake then, but now I do. Smile



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 19636
Location: London


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PostPosted: 09/25/17 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
tfan wrote:
Simple solution is to get rid of playing the national anthem at games. It was started in WWII to drum up patriotism and then didn't stop (as it had when they did in in WWI). I do not like it when I have come to a college game and someone tells me I need to stand up, remove any hat, and turn towards a flag. It's a sporting event, not an inauguration.

Also, get rid of sports teams going to the White House for a photo op. Have White House photo ops with people who have done something extraordinary to help in their communities.


I like the first idea of this very much. The second, I partially agree with; why not do both? If nothing else, maybe it would keep the President (whoever is in office at the time, whatever their politics are) too busy to interfere in other branches of government.

Is playing the anthem before games something other countries (besides America) do? We play both anthem before international games - so when two teams representing the countries are playing each other - but if you put God Save the Queen on before some random Premier League game everyone would just be confused. It is a little odd.



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miller40



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 972



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 8:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Queenie wrote:
tfan wrote:
Simple solution is to get rid of playing the national anthem at games. It was started in WWII to drum up patriotism and then didn't stop (as it had when they did in in WWI). I do not like it when I have come to a college game and someone tells me I need to stand up, remove any hat, and turn towards a flag. It's a sporting event, not an inauguration.

Also, get rid of sports teams going to the White House for a photo op. Have White House photo ops with people who have done something extraordinary to help in their communities.


I like the first idea of this very much. The second, I partially agree with; why not do both? If nothing else, maybe it would keep the President (whoever is in office at the time, whatever their politics are) too busy to interfere in other branches of government.

Is playing the anthem before games something other countries (besides America) do? We play both anthem before international games - so when two teams representing the countries are playing each other - but if you put God Save the Queen on before some random Premier League game everyone would just be confused. It is a little odd.


Russia does it. ..... Laughing


jmpenn90



Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 420



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 9:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.

Holding them back? Some are being murdered by cops because of the color of their skin. And then the cop gets found not guilty. I am a white woman and I see minorities treated different all the time. I see a black woman getting her receipt checked when leaving and then mine isn't. I see them asking for someone's ID but then they don't ask for mine. I heard a man tell an Indian woman at Subway to go back to her country because she had an accent. A friend's elderly mom was yelled at to go back to her country because she was taking too long to go across the crosswalk. She is Indian and had just had a stroke. A black friend had a stranger leave a threatening, racist note on her car that she found after shopping one day. These are all things that I have witnessed or that happened to a friend this year alone. The things happening on a national level are terrifying and that is why people kneel.



The last major police shooting I heard about was a Somali-American who killed a white woman. The MPLS PD is run by a democratic machine and the city is controlled by a very diverse government. Baltimore, where another high profile police killing took place has been in the hands of African American politicians for many years. Their police department is majority African American. Whole lot of racism there or a whole lot of incompetence? Far too many people are killed by police I agree. But plenty of them are white as well.
If you see someone pulling a stunt like you described above did you report it to the manager of the store? If you accuse a retail employee of racist practices and report them their manager will generally speaking very quickly secret shop them and nail them if they are found to be discriminating. If they don't take it to the next level and let them know you aren't shopping there again and will tell other people to avoid them as well. Did you stand up for the woman being yelled at? Sounds like you live in a very unpleasant area if people leave threatening notes on other people's cars. Personally that specific example sounds about as believable to me as a Lena Dunham tweet. Where I live people generally don't pull that garbage. If I saw it I would damn well say something. And I live in a very non diverse place and I don't really care one way or another. But racism is not tolerated here either overtly or covertly.

Once again I am asking for someone to show a good example of how the US has a system in place that is designed to rob POC of a shot in life. No one has come up with anything yet. A few anecdotes and life experiences on a personal level. How is kneeling for the national anthem going to change a few people's hearts? Whoever is president has nothing to do with that. People didn't want Trump? Why didn't the DNC find a decent candidate then? Me personally I haven't registered to vote in fourteen years because I don't want to get called for jury duty. Still waiting for those examples and more importantly an answer as to what these people kneeling want.

I don't follow Lena Dunham but it seems like you think I am lying. I am not. I don't know where you live but I live in the south and we still have problems. Charlottesville should have shown that we still have a long way to go. I did speak out when the guy was yelling at the Indian woman at Subway and I apologized to her even though I didn't know him. In the other situations I usually try and show my information as well even if they don't ask. There are so many stories I hear about locally and nationally that worry me. I believe that the people kneeling want police brutality to stop, they want the president to stop saying some white supremacists are very fine people, and they want the president to stop calling them SOBs. The president needs to stop calling for people to be fired for exercising their first amendment. He swore to uphold the constitution.


Bob Lamm



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Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 09/25/17 9:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
I don't follow Lena Dunham but it seems like you think I am lying. I am not. I don't know where you live but I live in the south and we still have problems. Charlottesville should have shown that we still have a long way to go. I did speak out when the guy was yelling at the Indian woman at Subway and I apologized to her even though I didn't know him. In the other situations I usually try and show my information as well even if they don't ask. There are so many stories I hear about locally and nationally that worry me. I believe that the people kneeling want police brutality to stop, they want the president to stop saying some white supremacists are very fine people, and they want the president to stop calling them SOBs. The president needs to stop calling for people to be fired for exercising their first amendment. He swore to uphold the constitution.


It's great that you spoke out on behalf of the Indian woman at Subway and apologized to her even though you didn't know the man who was harassing her. Please ignore Mr. Kramer's implication that you're lying. You have my respect. Our country needs more people to speak out against racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, and other poisons. And not just in the South. Everywhere.



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Quietstorm1124



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.
Its clear you don't know Donald Trumps history with POC.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html
Quote:
The Justice Department undertook its own investigation and, in 1973, sued Trump Management for discriminating against blacks. Both Fred Trump, the company’s chairman, and Donald Trump, its president, were named as defendants. It was front-page news, and for Donald, amounted to his debut in the public eye.

Quote:
Looking back, Mr. Trump’s response to the lawsuit can be seen as presaging his handling of subsequent challenges, in business and in politics. Rather than quietly trying to settle — as another New York developer had done a couple of years earlier — he turned the lawsuit into a protracted battle, complete with angry denials, character assassination, charges that the government was trying to force him to rent to “welfare recipients” and a $100 million countersuit accusing the Justice Department of defamation.

Quote:
Complaints about the Trump organization’s rental policies continued to mount: By 1967, state investigators found that out of some 3,700 apartments in Trump Village, seven were occupied by African-American families.

Quote:
A former Trump superintendent named Thomas Miranda testified that multiple Trump Management employees had instructed him to attach a separate piece of paper with a big letter “C” on it — for “colored” — to any application filed by a black apartment-seeker.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/17/central-park-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york
Quote:
“He was the fire starter,” Salaam said of Trump, in his first extended interview since Trump announced his run for the White House. “Common citizens were being manipulated and swayed into believing that we were guilty.”

Quote:
He paid a reported $85,000 to take out advertising space in four of the city’s newspapers, including the New York Times. Under the headline “Bring Back The Death Penalty. Bring Back Our Police!” and above his signature, Trump wrote: “I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer and, when they kill, they should be executed for their crimes. They must serve as examples so that others will think long and hard before committing a crime or an act of violence.”
This isn't even half of what he's been accused and found guilty of. In New York we know all to well about Donald Trump and his history with POC.



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StevenHW



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 10:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
My guess is that the White House basically knew they'd turn it down, so quietly didn't invite them. It just would've led to a quieter version of the brouhaha that's going on with Curry now (because far fewer people care about the WNBA), but with the added element of women being involved. Doubt the drama was worth it on either side.

Considering it's all come up again right now though, the players might well be asked about it this week. And get to say they wouldn't go even though they probably weren't invited.


Thanks! That is what I was thinking. They also probably didn't like that Obama already sent a note and that they tried to go before he left.


If I recall correctly, then-President Obama gave the Sparks a phone call to congratulate them, knowing that he wouldn't be in office by the time the team would come up to Washington DC.

I doubt that, no matter who wins this year's WNBA Finals, the winner won't be going to the White House, as long as Trump is President.



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StevenHW



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Should we be surprised #45 won't invite any women's teams to the WH?? He probably opposes women playing sports.


But when Trump was hosting The Celebrity Apprentice, he's had female athletes participating...

Golfer Natalie Gulbis
Hockey player Angela Ruggiero
Olympic gymnast Nadia Comaneci
Softball player Jennie Finch
Olympic swimmer Summer Sanders
WWE wrestler Maria Kanellis



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jmpenn90



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: 09/25/17 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
jmpenn90 wrote:
I don't follow Lena Dunham but it seems like you think I am lying. I am not. I don't know where you live but I live in the south and we still have problems. Charlottesville should have shown that we still have a long way to go. I did speak out when the guy was yelling at the Indian woman at Subway and I apologized to her even though I didn't know him. In the other situations I usually try and show my information as well even if they don't ask. There are so many stories I hear about locally and nationally that worry me. I believe that the people kneeling want police brutality to stop, they want the president to stop saying some white supremacists are very fine people, and they want the president to stop calling them SOBs. The president needs to stop calling for people to be fired for exercising their first amendment. He swore to uphold the constitution.


It's great that you spoke out on behalf of the Indian woman at Subway and apologized to her even though you didn't know the man who was harassing her. Please ignore Mr. Kramer's implication that you're lying. You have my respect. Our country needs more people to speak out against racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, and other poisons. And not just in the South. Everywhere.

Thank you! I definitely feel like I need to do more.


Ay Mate



Joined: 12 Nov 2016
Posts: 902



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

StevenHW wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Should we be surprised #45 won't invite any women's teams to the WH?? He probably opposes women playing sports.


But when Trump was hosting The Celebrity Apprentice, he's had female athletes participating...

Golfer Natalie Gulbis
Hockey player Angela Ruggiero
Olympic gymnast Nadia Comaneci
Softball player Jennie Finch
Olympic swimmer Summer Sanders
WWE wrestler Maria Kanellis


Lisa Leslie too no? I forget.


Mysticsfan12



Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 448



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ay Mate wrote:
StevenHW wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Should we be surprised #45 won't invite any women's teams to the WH?? He probably opposes women playing sports.


But when Trump was hosting The Celebrity Apprentice, he's had female athletes participating...

Golfer Natalie Gulbis
Hockey player Angela Ruggiero
Olympic gymnast Nadia Comaneci
Softball player Jennie Finch
Olympic swimmer Summer Sanders
WWE wrestler Maria Kanellis


Lisa Leslie too no? I forget.

I think she was a contestant during the very brief Awnold era Laughing as I remember, she wasn't a fan favorite



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 5:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F2mqNj-1QWs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2mqNj-1QWs



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StevenHW



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Location: Sacramento, California


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PostPosted: 09/25/17 6:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mysticsfan12 wrote:
Ay Mate wrote:
StevenHW wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Should we be surprised #45 won't invite any women's teams to the WH?? He probably opposes women playing sports.


But when Trump was hosting The Celebrity Apprentice, he's had female athletes participating...

Golfer Natalie Gulbis
Hockey player Angela Ruggiero
Olympic gymnast Nadia Comaneci
Softball player Jennie Finch
Olympic swimmer Summer Sanders
WWE wrestler Maria Kanellis


Lisa Leslie too no? I forget.

I think she was a contestant during the very brief Awnold era Laughing as I remember, she wasn't a fan favorite


I didn't see the Schwarzenegger version of The Celebrity Apprentice, but Ay Mate is correct that Lisa Leslie was in that version. But I was referring to the Trump version.



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"My mechanic told me, 'I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder'." - comedian Steven Wright
WfanFrJmp



Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 507



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
<embed><iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F2mqNj-1QWs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2mqNj-1QWs


Thank you for posting this! I love this guy!


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2017
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 09/25/17 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WfanFrJmp wrote:
Genero36 wrote:
<embed><iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F2mqNj-1QWs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2mqNj-1QWs


Thank you for posting this! I love this guy!


What a great statement by Gregg Popovich. Thanks so much, Genero 36, for posting this.



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 8531



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PostPosted: 09/26/17 7:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
What a great statement by Gregg Popovich. Thanks so much, Genero 36, for posting this.


Welcome. This is just the kind of person Pop has always been.



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I'm all for the separation of church and hate.


Last edited by Genero36 on 09/26/17 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Quietstorm1124



Joined: 18 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: 09/26/17 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
<embed><iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F2mqNj-1QWs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2mqNj-1QWs
Thank You for posting this.



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“...There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have the burden of proving it.”
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Genero36



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Posts: 8531



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PostPosted: 09/26/17 9:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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josephkramer44



Joined: 23 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: 09/27/17 8:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.

Holding them back? Some are being murdered by cops because of the color of their skin. And then the cop gets found not guilty. I am a white woman and I see minorities treated different all the time. I see a black woman getting her receipt checked when leaving and then mine isn't. I see them asking for someone's ID but then they don't ask for mine. I heard a man tell an Indian woman at Subway to go back to her country because she had an accent. A friend's elderly mom was yelled at to go back to her country because she was taking too long to go across the crosswalk. She is Indian and had just had a stroke. A black friend had a stranger leave a threatening, racist note on her car that she found after shopping one day. These are all things that I have witnessed or that happened to a friend this year alone. The things happening on a national level are terrifying and that is why people kneel.



The last major police shooting I heard about was a Somali-American who killed a white woman. The MPLS PD is run by a democratic machine and the city is controlled by a very diverse government. Baltimore, where another high profile police killing took place has been in the hands of African American politicians for many years. Their police department is majority African American. Whole lot of racism there or a whole lot of incompetence? Far too many people are killed by police I agree. But plenty of them are white as well.
If you see someone pulling a stunt like you described above did you report it to the manager of the store? If you accuse a retail employee of racist practices and report them their manager will generally speaking very quickly secret shop them and nail them if they are found to be discriminating. If they don't take it to the next level and let them know you aren't shopping there again and will tell other people to avoid them as well. Did you stand up for the woman being yelled at? Sounds like you live in a very unpleasant area if people leave threatening notes on other people's cars. Personally that specific example sounds about as believable to me as a Lena Dunham tweet. Where I live people generally don't pull that garbage. If I saw it I would damn well say something. And I live in a very non diverse place and I don't really care one way or another. But racism is not tolerated here either overtly or covertly.

Once again I am asking for someone to show a good example of how the US has a system in place that is designed to rob POC of a shot in life. No one has come up with anything yet. A few anecdotes and life experiences on a personal level. How is kneeling for the national anthem going to change a few people's hearts? Whoever is president has nothing to do with that. People didn't want Trump? Why didn't the DNC find a decent candidate then? Me personally I haven't registered to vote in fourteen years because I don't want to get called for jury duty. Still waiting for those examples and more importantly an answer as to what these people kneeling want.

I don't follow Lena Dunham but it seems like you think I am lying. I am not. I don't know where you live but I live in the south and we still have problems. Charlottesville should have shown that we still have a long way to go. I did speak out when the guy was yelling at the Indian woman at Subway and I apologized to her even though I didn't know him. In the other situations I usually try and show my information as well even if they don't ask. There are so many stories I hear about locally and nationally that worry me. I believe that the people kneeling want police brutality to stop, they want the president to stop saying some white supremacists are very fine people, and they want the president to stop calling them SOBs. The president needs to stop calling for people to be fired for exercising their first amendment. He swore to uphold the constitution.



A couple hundred underachieving losers flying Confederate flags getting into fights with a couple hundred underachieving losers flying hammer and sickle flags is not an accurate reflection of the US as a whole. The fact that so few people showed up for such an event is the most telling fact from that day. The vast majority of people here in the US reject such ideas. However in a nation of 300 million plus people there are bound to be a few jerks.
Once again I do feel that the police in the US are too quick to draw their guns. That unfortunately is due more to a lack of training and low standards that are apparent in your average police department. For every black person killed by the police there are three white people killed. Each one is unfortunate. But I (and the majority of US citizens) don't see this as a racial issue, which is why BLM is so poorly regarded.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide us with a list of all of the overtly racist organizations (be they private or government) that are actively out to oppress POC here in the US. Also a list of exactly what these protesters want.


josephkramer44



Joined: 23 Aug 2016
Posts: 109



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PostPosted: 09/27/17 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
jmpenn90 wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Name the institutions of our nation that are holding these people back. Name the people in charge of these institutions that are holding people back. Just give us all a few examples. Any whatsoever. Or are you comfortable simply using broad generalizations and anecdotes? Also how are any of these Donald Trump's fault? No one ever accused him of being a bigot when he was a developer. Just a bully (which he is). One thing I do strongly believe is that poverty breeds poverty but that has nothing to do with race. Has the nation "failed" poor whites? There are many many poor whites in the country as well as poor minorities.

As far as bias being shown check out your avatar. But I suppose that attitude is okay and completely acceptable because of the validity and morality of whatever you think.

justintyme wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Yeah, standard duck and parry move. I'm just a racist. You forgot to mention the fact I was homophobic, sexist and an islamophobe as well.

Yeah standard scarecrow argument. No one called you racist. I said that if someone believes that people of color are inherently lazy or less capable than white people they are racist. Seeing as that is the very definition of racism this is not even close to a provocative statement or personal attack. Unless you actually do believe these things, then it would be more than justified.

Since POC are obviously not less capable the fact that they continue to live in poverty, face more crime and worse schools, and a slew of other negative circumstances, tells us that this country has failed them. And that failure is a systemic issue. I would suggest that you actually reseach what systemic racism is, because it explains execly the barriers that are being faced. It is not some nefarious white supremacist going home from the office and bragging to all his clan buddies at the cross burning about how he stuck it to the Black Man today. Rather it is that people are more likely to give breaks, benefits of the doubt, extra support and mentorships to people who look, talk, walk in the same social circles, and share other similarities to themselves. The are more likely to empathize and understand people share their cultural background. And they are more likely to assume the worst about people who don't share these things. Think about the last time someone said something about how some African American would do better "if they learned proper English". That the white powers that be defined "proper English" in their own image is seldom considered.

No, this is an issue and it has a long history of being the case. CK has more than enough cause to feel the county is failing POC.

Quote:
Also the Jaguars are one of the league's worst franchises and just wait for the fallout. This is going to be a rough year for the NFL.

Your bias is showing.

If this were a factor, the NBA which is much more demonstrative than the NFL would be facing major declines. They aren't.

Holding them back? Some are being murdered by cops because of the color of their skin. And then the cop gets found not guilty. I am a white woman and I see minorities treated different all the time. I see a black woman getting her receipt checked when leaving and then mine isn't. I see them asking for someone's ID but then they don't ask for mine. I heard a man tell an Indian woman at Subway to go back to her country because she had an accent. A friend's elderly mom was yelled at to go back to her country because she was taking too long to go across the crosswalk. She is Indian and had just had a stroke. A black friend had a stranger leave a threatening, racist note on her car that she found after shopping one day. These are all things that I have witnessed or that happened to a friend this year alone. The things happening on a national level are terrifying and that is why people kneel.



The last major police shooting I heard about was a Somali-American who killed a white woman. The MPLS PD is run by a democratic machine and the city is controlled by a very diverse government. Baltimore, where another high profile police killing took place has been in the hands of African American politicians for many years. Their police department is majority African American. Whole lot of racism there or a whole lot of incompetence? Far too many people are killed by police I agree. But plenty of them are white as well.
If you see someone pulling a stunt like you described above did you report it to the manager of the store? If you accuse a retail employee of racist practices and report them their manager will generally speaking very quickly secret shop them and nail them if they are found to be discriminating. If they don't take it to the next level and let them know you aren't shopping there again and will tell other people to avoid them as well. Did you stand up for the woman being yelled at? Sounds like you live in a very unpleasant area if people leave threatening notes on other people's cars. Personally that specific example sounds about as believable to me as a Lena Dunham tweet. Where I live people generally don't pull that garbage. If I saw it I would damn well say something. And I live in a very non diverse place and I don't really care one way or another. But racism is not tolerated here either overtly or covertly.

Once again I am asking for someone to show a good example of how the US has a system in place that is designed to rob POC of a shot in life. No one has come up with anything yet. A few anecdotes and life experiences on a personal level. How is kneeling for the national anthem going to change a few people's hearts? Whoever is president has nothing to do with that. People didn't want Trump? Why didn't the DNC find a decent candidate then? Me personally I haven't registered to vote in fourteen years because I don't want to get called for jury duty. Still waiting for those examples and more importantly an answer as to what these people kneeling want.

I don't follow Lena Dunham but it seems like you think I am lying. I am not. I don't know where you live but I live in the south and we still have problems. Charlottesville should have shown that we still have a long way to go. I did speak out when the guy was yelling at the Indian woman at Subway and I apologized to her even though I didn't know him. In the other situations I usually try and show my information as well even if they don't ask. There are so many stories I hear about locally and nationally that worry me. I believe that the people kneeling want police brutality to stop, they want the president to stop saying some white supremacists are very fine people, and they want the president to stop calling them SOBs. The president needs to stop calling for people to be fired for exercising their first amendment. He swore to uphold the constitution.



A couple hundred underachieving losers flying Confederate flags getting into fights with a couple hundred underachieving losers flying hammer and sickle flags is not an accurate reflection of the US as a whole. The fact that so few people showed up for such an event is the most telling fact from that day. The vast majority of people here in the US reject such ideas. However in a nation of 300 million plus people there are bound to be a few jerks.
Once again I do feel that the police in the US are too quick to draw their guns. That unfortunately is due more to a lack of training and low standards that are apparent in your average police department. For every black person killed by the police there are three white people killed. Each one is unfortunate. But I (and the majority of US citizens) don't see this as a racial issue, which is why BLM is so poorly regarded.

I'm still waiting for someone to provide us with a list of all of the overtly racist organizations (be they private or government) that are actively out to oppress POC here in the US. Also a list of exactly what these protesters want.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/27/17 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Football player and broadcaster Cris Carter was stopped and questioned by police. While on his own lawn. If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black. I'm sure the former issue is not an isolated incident. Other black athletes have shared similar stories. There shouldn't need to be a "list of demands" in 2017 to cover such incidents. Lastly, if you're not black, it's kind of hard to criticize because you can't walk in a person's shoes if they feel they've been unjustly profiled or discriminated against. Maybe we should try harder to understand the feelings of perspectives of people who feel they've been treated unjustly instead of explaining it away like it doesn't matter. That's precisely WHY there IS a "Black Lives Matter" movement.



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PostPosted: 09/27/17 9:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Football player and broadcaster Cris Carter was stopped and questioned by police. While on his own lawn. If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black. I'm sure the former issue is not an isolated incident. Other black athletes have shared similar stories. There shouldn't need to be a "list of demands" in 2017 to cover such incidents. Lastly, if you're not black, it's kind of hard to criticize because you can't walk in a person's shoes if they feel they've been unjustly profiled or discriminated against. Maybe we should try harder to understand the feelings of perspectives of people who feel they've been treated unjustly instead of explaining it away like it doesn't matter. That's precisely WHY there IS a "Black Lives Matter" movement.


Very well said. Thank you.

So sorry that I just don't have time to comply with Mr. Kramer's absurd requests. I've been spending the evening reading the fine work of the Antiguan-American writer Jamaica Kinkaid about her country of origin. A SMALL PLACE is her powerful look at how Antigua was poisoned by the colonialism and racism of the British Empire. If we provide reading lists for Mr. Kramer of the work of African Americans and other authors of color, will he devote a year or two to that reading?



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josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 09/27/17 9:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Football player and broadcaster Cris Carter was stopped and questioned by police. While on his own lawn. If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black. I'm sure the former issue is not an isolated incident. Other black athletes have shared similar stories. There shouldn't need to be a "list of demands" in 2017 to cover such incidents. Lastly, if you're not black, it's kind of hard to criticize because you can't walk in a person's shoes if they feel they've been unjustly profiled or discriminated against. Maybe we should try harder to understand the feelings of perspectives of people who feel they've been treated unjustly instead of explaining it away like it doesn't matter. That's precisely WHY there IS a "Black Lives Matter" movement.


Very well said. Thank you.

So sorry that I just don't have time to comply with Mr. Kramer's absurd requests. I've been spending the evening reading the fine work of the Antiguan-American writer Jamaica Kinkaid about her country of origin. A SMALL PLACE is her powerful look at how Antigua was poisoned by the colonialism and racism of the British Empire. If we provide reading lists for Mr. Kramer of the work of African Americans and other authors of color, will he devote a year or two to that reading?



What is so "absurd" about asking you to pinpoint a source of this bigotry that you are protesting about? Could it be you can't name an Institution? If you give a list of books I'd be happy to look into it, so long as its not done by Toni Morrison and nothing off of Oprah's book club. I'm more of a Alexandre Dumas and James Michener guy myself, but it never hurts to broaden one's horizons. Speaking of broadening one's horizons didn't the cannibal Carib indians orginially from what is now Venezuela invade Antigua and kill all the Arawaks before the Spanish and English arrived? Not excusing the horrific sugar industry of the Carribean in any way, just saying that many different groups of people over the years have committed terrible crimes and no one's ancestors hands are clean. Thank goodness we are moving past that.


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PostPosted: 09/27/17 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Responding to Mr. Kramer's request above:

Richard Wright, Native Son
Richard Wright, Black Boy
Alice Walker, The Color Purple
Alice Walker, In Love and Trouble
Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man
Lorraine Hansberry, A Raisin in the Sun
Lorraine Hansberry, To Be Young, Gifted, and Black
James Baldwin, The Fire Next Time
James Baldwin, Giovanni's Room
James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son
Gloria Naylor, The Women of Brewster Place
Alex Haley, The Autobiography of Malcolm X
Malcolm X Speaks
Nella Larsen, Passing
Nella Larsen, Quicksand
Ta-Nehisi Coates, Between the World and Me
Anne Moody, Coming of Age in Mississippi
Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart
Chinua Achebe, No Longer at Ease
Zadie Smith, White Teeth
Charles Johnson, Middle Passage
Harriet Jacobs, Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl
James McBride, The Color of Water
Roxane Gay, Bad Feminist
Ellis Cose, Rage
Arma Bontemps (ed.), American Negro Poetry
Stokely Carmichael and Charles Hamilton, Black Power
James Weldon Johnson, The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man
Lynn Nottage, Ruined
Lynn Nottage, Intimate Apparel
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go From Here?
Dominique Morisseau, Skeleton Crew
Richard X. Clark, The Brothers of Attica
Jamaica Kinkaid, A Safe Place
E.R. Braithwaite, To Sir, With Love
Audre Lorde, Sister Outsider
Langston Hughes, Selected Poems
Chimimanda Ngozi Adichie, Half of a Yellow Sun
Chimimanda Ngozi Adichie, We Should All Be Feminists
August Wilson, Fences
August Wilson, Joe Turner's Come and Gone
August Wilson, Jitney
Kim Williams, 40 Hours and an Unwritten Rule
Barack Obama, Dreams from My Father
Crystal Feimster, Southern Horrors

These are in no particular order. I've focused here on African American writers, with a few black writers from other countries thrown in. I've tried to limit it to a maximum of three works per writer. Everyone should feel to add to and improve this list.



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PostPosted: 09/27/17 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have read "Black Boy" by Wright. Damn good read, but sad. Poor kid is just looking for kindness in life and his own family is meaner than hell to him.


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PostPosted: 09/28/17 5:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
I have read "Black Boy" by Wright. Damn good read, but sad. Poor kid is just looking for kindness in life and his own family is meaner than hell to him.


The list has 45 titles. Only 44 to go.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 6:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What's wrong with Toni Morrison? The Bluest Eye is a work of genius.



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 8:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
What's wrong with Toni Morrison? The Bluest Eye is a work of genius.


I certainly agree and I should have said that. Just decided to provide a list anyway. And--given that Mr. Kramer made negative comments about two prominent and outstanding African American women--I wanted to be sure that roughly half of the writers on the list were women. And I did.

Again I encourage others to add to my list.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 8:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
pilight wrote:
What's wrong with Toni Morrison? The Bluest Eye is a work of genius.


I certainly agree and I should have said that. Just decided to provide a list anyway. And--given that Mr. Kramer made negative comments about two prominent and outstanding African American women--I wanted to be sure that roughly half of the writers on the list were women. And I did.

Again I encourage others to add to my list.


Toni Morrison is openly racist and carries a chip on her shoulder that is apparent in just about every interview she does and every book she writes. I have read Paradise and The Bluest Eye and Beloved by her and didn't dig any of them. Something like Braithwaite is more up my alley. Although that book is so short I'm not sure if I consider it a real literary masterpiece. Quite dry too, but that is the author's style. But then again I like "Raisin in the Sun" and "The Piano Lesson" and they are just plays. Sidney Poitier playing him the film was excellent. Perhaps I'm not as unenlightened as you accuse me of being? Wonder if you have ever bothered with Tolstoy or Goethe or Dumas or Kipling or Hawthorne?


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 9:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Wonder if you have ever bothered with Tolstoy or Goethe or Dumas or Kipling or Hawthorne?


Of course. The House of the Seven Gables is one of my all time favorites.



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 9:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How sickening it is that Mr. Kramer says that Toni Morrison is "openly racist." Not that I'm surprised. I'm an elderly white boy and far too many in my demographic are sexist, racist, homophobic, and otherwise awful.

That's it for me. I support freedom of speech here and everywhere as long as it isn't hate speech. Mr. Kramer hasn't engaged in hate speech and has every right to spew his ugly views. I will never comment again on anything he writes, including any response to what I'm saying here.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 4:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black.


35% of the US jail and prison population is black males. 25% is not disproportionate to 35%, so it is probably the 35% incarceration situation that should be in debate and being protested.


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PostPosted: 09/28/17 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black.


35% of the US jail and prison population is black males. 25% is not disproportionate to 35%, so it is probably the 35% incarceration situation that should be in debate and being protested.

These are not mutually exclusive figures. Both of these are troubling statistics that point to staggering inequality. Thus both of these statistics are being protested...



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 5:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
How sickening it is that Mr. Kramer says that Toni Morrison is "openly racist." Not that I'm surprised. I'm an elderly white boy and far too many in my demographic are sexist, racist, homophobic, and otherwise awful.

That's it for me. I support freedom of speech here and everywhere as long as it isn't hate speech. Mr. Kramer hasn't engaged in hate speech and has every right to spew his ugly views. I will never comment again on anything he writes, including any response to what I'm saying here.


Captain of the College Debate Team there. What an educated individual. Can't back up his own views with supporting arguments and so declares himself the victor and the topic closed. Real intelligent. Par for the course for the far left.


tfan



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PostPosted: 09/28/17 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
If 1 in 4 people shot by police is black, that is arguably still disproportionate when 12% of the US population is black.


35% of the US jail and prison population is black males. 25% is not disproportionate to 35%, so it is probably the 35% incarceration situation that should be in debate and being protested.

These are not mutually exclusive figures. Both of these are troubling statistics that point to staggering inequality. Thus both of these statistics are being protested...


It has appeared to me like the focus is on the shootings.

I would like to see a strong focus on improving economic conditions in black or mostly black areas that have low income and high crime. It is striking to hear about the crime and violence in black neighborhoods of Chicago, while I also see the mayor fighting hard for the illegal aliens working illegally for illegal wages in the city. We also give our manufacturing jobs to Chinese and Mexican workers, rather than say, unemployed or underemployed or low-wage Chicago workers.


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