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LibFan25



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 519
Location: Yonkers, NY


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PostPosted: 06/25/18 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
Good News--- Marissa Coleman is out for tomorrow night's home game against Phoenix. per--Pat Ralph on twitter

this means more mins for Nurse, the way it should of been from the beginning when we were "actually" in close games and playing hard.

maybe Boyd will get mins as well who is "actually" playing well.


We're the only fans in the league who hope for injuries because fewer options mean our coach gets less confused. Razz


i'm just sayin' Laughing Laughing

Katie is in love with them Vets, i remember last year Liambeer use to do the same but then later on realized and saw the light.

hopefully Coach Katie Smith sees the light before the Sun sets to darkness.


dab44lb



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 356
Location: The Bronx


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PostPosted: 06/25/18 4:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
Good News--- Marissa Coleman is out for tomorrow night's home game against Phoenix. per--Pat Ralph on twitter

this means more mins for Nurse, the way it should of been from the beginning when we were "actually" in close games and playing hard.

maybe Boyd will get mins as well who is "actually" playing well.


We're the only fans in the league who hope for injuries because fewer options mean our coach gets less confused. Razz


Good News?!!!! Wow!!!



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Lib Fan



Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 4217
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 06/25/18 6:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dab44lb wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
Good News--- Marissa Coleman is out for tomorrow night's home game against Phoenix. per--Pat Ralph on twitter

this means more mins for Nurse, the way it should of been from the beginning when we were "actually" in close games and playing hard.

maybe Boyd will get mins as well who is "actually" playing well.


We're the only fans in the league who hope for injuries because fewer options mean our coach gets less confused. Razz


Good News?!!!! Wow!!!


Have Liberty Fans hit a all time low ...
being happy that one of our players is hurt and can not play?
I DONT UNDERSTAND IT !



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LibFan25



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 519
Location: Yonkers, NY


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PostPosted: 06/25/18 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lib Fan wrote:
dab44lb wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
Good News--- Marissa Coleman is out for tomorrow night's home game against Phoenix. per--Pat Ralph on twitter

this means more mins for Nurse, the way it should of been from the beginning when we were "actually" in close games and playing hard.

maybe Boyd will get mins as well who is "actually" playing well.


We're the only fans in the league who hope for injuries because fewer options mean our coach gets less confused. Razz


Good News?!!!! Wow!!!


Have Liberty Fans hit a all time low ...
being happy that one of our players is hurt and can not play?
I DONT UNDERSTAND IT !


Listen, I just want what is best for the team. Don't mind me I'm just a regular hard working Joe who loves his team and want it to succeed for the future. Wasn't hoping someone would get hurt just pointing the fact Coach Smith doesn't see what we are seeing as Liberty fans. I was hoping the players who are not producing would be stuck on the bench and let the players who playing well play. That's all no harm.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2413
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PostPosted: 06/27/18 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Deleted



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.


Last edited by Bob Lamm on 06/27/18 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 2413
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 06/27/18 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lib Fan wrote:
dab44lb wrote:
root_thing wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
Good News--- Marissa Coleman is out for tomorrow night's home game against Phoenix. per--Pat Ralph on twitter

this means more mins for Nurse, the way it should of been from the beginning when we were "actually" in close games and playing hard.

maybe Boyd will get mins as well who is "actually" playing well.


We're the only fans in the league who hope for injuries because fewer options mean our coach gets less confused. Razz


Good News?!!!! Wow!!!


Have Liberty Fans hit a all time low ...
being happy that one of our players is hurt and can not play?
I DONT UNDERSTAND IT !


Thank you, dab and Lib Fan, for what you wrote.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 17475



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PostPosted: 06/29/18 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bringing the conversation back to this thread, our best option in the draft may be Samuelson if she can drop to #4. Hopefully Ionescu declares(drafted by Indiana) and McCowan and Brown go #2 & #3(Chicago and Vegas). Otherwise we may be better off drafting Brown and going with Boyd-Nurse-Zellous-Charles-Brown as our starters. We trade Prince(to Phoenix for their first rounder[#11?] and don't bring back Vaughn, Hartley and Allen. We then will also have the #15 or #16 pick and can draft a backup for Boyd(Paris Kea?) and possibly Laksa at #11.

PG: Boyd/Kea
SG: Nurse/Rodgers
SF: Zellous/Laksa
PF: Charles/Zahui B/Raincock
C: Brown/Stokes



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 2:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding the discussion about Samuelson, I watched the whole UConn-ND game to really get a feel. Offensively, I like the handle for a 6'3" player and really like the passing. I think that height will be tough to match up against.

On defense, she struggled, as she did rebounding. However, she did play through an ankle injury that she had surgery on in April, so whether that impacted her play is up in the air. I'll say if she was reasonably mobile for a 6'3" player while playing on an ankle that required surgery after the season, that bodes well for significant improvement,

Here's the thing to me with the other parts of her game. You don't want to look at her junior year as being representative of what she will always be. Players alter their diets, their workouts and just learn things that improve their style of play. I'm looking at physical attributes that will carry over to the pro game. Her problem on defense is the size of her body. Her lateral movement is acceptable. Her length is very good. So the question becomes, is her body projectible to add muscle? I'd say the answer is yes. Her legs are rail thin. Her arms are thin and not terribly muscular. Her shoulders, however, are not thin. That demonstrates to me that her likelihood of adding muscle and overall body strength are good, because she has a projectible frame. And I admit she was just bouncing off of people, especially under the glass. But first off, was the ankle (balance and base) a factor in that? And again, the question is not what she is today. The question is, what can she become? I think her body frame leaves room for improvement.

Also, I don't want a guard 5'10" or under unless that guard proves to be a very gifted passer. I've had enough of the players who score and bring little else to the table. I like Arike and I like Durr. I don't, however, love either one for NY unless they upgrade the playmaking aspects of their play. We have enough guards who score but don't have a complete profile otherwise. A lineup with KLS and Nurse will wind up causing matchup problems for opponents once you put four players 6 feet or better on the floor together. Especially when four of those players can actually pass the ball and make their teammates better.

Again, KLS would not be my preferred choice. I'd prefer Ionescu (if she declares) or either of McCowan or Brown. I do think for the Liberty KLS is a better choice than smaller guards who may not have versatility. We have too many already.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 2:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Bringing the conversation back to this thread, our best option in the draft may be Samuelson if she can drop to #4. Hopefully Ionescu declares(drafted by Indiana) and McCowan and Brown go #2 & #3(Chicago and Vegas). Otherwise we may be better off drafting Brown and going with Boyd-Nurse-Zellous-Charles-Brown as our starters. We trade Prince(to Phoenix for their first rounder[#11?] and don't bring back Vaughn, Hartley and Allen. We then will also have the #15 or #16 pick and can draft a backup for Boyd(Paris Kea?) and possibly Laksa at #11.

PG: Boyd/Kea
SG: Nurse/Rodgers
SF: Zellous/Laksa
PF: Charles/Zahui B/Raincock
C: Brown/Stokes


I like this lineup a lot. I think this is a 20-win team. Maybe more. I like Stokes as being the backup defensive role player and I like Zahui being the backup energy player. In this scenario you don't NEED Tina to be far and away your only low-post option because Brown can do that. Now, you're also not terribly reliant on Stokes being your ONLY source of rim protection. You can then accordingly distribute minutes among the posts more effectively. And in most any scenario you'll have at least one post who is a threat to score.

Boyd is starting to bring it. She's still kind of putting the pieces together and she still needs to be better shooting mid-range shots. But you are slowly seeing her attempt them which is a first step. And sooner or later she will start getting calls going to the basket that other players who do it get. And you can put some backups out there with Boyd and either Nurse or Z and still be able to run.

One thing though. This is the final year of Z's deal according to Megdal's numbers. She's not having a great year and the frustration has seeped into her game on both ends of the court, between technicals and not really getting the ball in situations where she can do work offensively. I think it's very likely she moves on to a team where she feels she can be a piece to win a title. She's been a big-game player in the past and there's teams she can help off the bench where it's needed. So, I wouldn't count on her returning.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 2:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Vaughn and Hartley are both worth 'something' in trade value so you don't give them away for free. I like Kea quite a lot but she is definitely turnover prone even in college which makes it scary to rely on her right out of the gates, especially when your starting PG is also really erratic. And realistically your chances of getting Brown are pretty slim.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes there are a lot of volume shooting 2 guards who don't quite translate at the W level but I think both Ogunbowale and Durr will be elite scorers at the next level, nit just scorers, so I do not think they are similar to what we have now.

Unless we get lucky in the lottery and move out of the 4 spot I think both Brown and McCowan will be off the board (though things can change in a year, and Ionescu could declare but I wouldn't count on it).

So then it becomes who will be better in the W KLS, Durr or Ogunbowale. I do not have an answer for that. They all have some "It" factor.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 3:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding the discussion about Samuelson, I watched the whole UConn-ND game to really get a feel. Offensively, I like the handle for a 6'3" player and really like the passing. I think that height will be tough to match up against.

On defense, she struggled, as she did rebounding. However, she did play through an ankle injury that she had surgery on in April, so whether that impacted her play is up in the air. I'll say if she was reasonably mobile for a 6'3" player while playing on an ankle that required surgery after the season, that bodes well for significant improvement,

Here's the thing to me with the other parts of her game. You don't want to look at her junior year as being representative of what she will always be. Players alter their diets, their workouts and just learn things that improve their style of play. I'm looking at physical attributes that will carry over to the pro game. Her problem on defense is the size of her body. Her lateral movement is acceptable. Her length is very good. So the question becomes, is her body projectible to add muscle? I'd say the answer is yes. Her legs are rail thin. Her arms are thin and not terribly muscular. Her shoulders, however, are not thin. That demonstrates to me that her likelihood of adding muscle and overall body strength are good, because she has a projectible frame. And I admit she was just bouncing off of people, especially under the glass. But first off, was the ankle (balance and base) a factor in that? And again, the question is not what she is today. The question is, what can she become? I think her body frame leaves room for improvement.

Also, I don't want a guard 5'10" or under unless that guard proves to be a very gifted passer. I've had enough of the players who score and bring little else to the table. I like Arike and I like Durr. I don't, however, love either one for NY unless they upgrade the playmaking aspects of their play. We have enough guards who score but don't have a complete profile otherwise. A lineup with KLS and Nurse will wind up causing matchup problems for opponents once you put four players 6 feet or better on the floor together. Especially when four of those players can actually pass the ball and make their teammates better.

Again, KLS would not be my preferred choice. I'd prefer Ionescu (if she declares) or either of McCowan or Brown. I do think for the Liberty KLS is a better choice than smaller guards who may not have versatility. We have too many already.


There's that being naive / blind to UCONN players having deficiencies as i spoke about . She was a horrible defender before she had ankle surgery a FULL year before the ND - UCONN match up . Her minute restrictions had been over since the December match up with ND so im not buying her ankle as an excuse tbh . But If the Libs want KLS im fine with that , we will take Ogumbowale or Durr if we are anywhere near the Top 6 picks Again #WFFL



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 4:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You clearly didn’t read my post. Durr or Arike make sense for Dallas since either could win a starting spot without them passing on a more primary need. Take either one with my blessing lol.

Taking another scoring guard on NY without clearing a 5-guard logjam makes no sense for NY unless the player is going to have a Taurasi/Cappie (in her prime) type of impact on the team. Perhaps one of those two players will demonstrate more of a “make your teammates better” on the pro level type of game as a senior. But until I see it, I want a player I know is going to do that the first time she steps on a WNBA court.

And since I figure “KLS is no Taurasi/Cappie” is going to come next...yeah, I know that. I just want the best possibility of someone who makes their teammates better. Ideally that would be a post with some passing skills or Ionescu. If not, KLS is the next best thing for what the Libs need.



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NYSports56



Joined: 03 Jul 2018
Posts: 83
Location: New Jersey, USA


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PostPosted: 07/05/18 5:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is my first post here in the Liberty folder--hi, everyone!

I've been a big Liberty fan since the 2015 season. I watched a few games before that, but didn't really get drawn in with a rooting interest. Since then, I've watched the majority of their games.

I am so glad to find these message boards! There is virtually nowhere to discuss the team; neither the WNBA site nor the Liberty site have any kind of online community, as far as I can tell. And none of the people I talk sports with care about the WNBA in the slightest.

So I'm happy to find this folder, and astonished to see how knowledgeable and civil it is! I just binge read this folder. I did not intend to do that, but I started reading, and I just kept going. I'd been looking for a some intelligent on-line discussion of the Liberty for a while, and here I found more than I could have possibly hoped for. This is truly sports talk with substance.

Where are the people who insult everyone who disagrees? Where are the people suggesting trades like "Rebecca Allen, Kia Vaughn, and our 2nd round next year to Phoenix for Griner and Taurasi?" Where are the out of town trash-talking trolls? No, here, people grant each other their points, the trades are discussed in a way that tries to show how the trade genuinely helps both teams, and the out of town fans contribute valuable perspective! What's up with that? I've never seen anything like this before! Smile

It was very interesting to have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight as I read your comments from this season (and the off season before it). The pre-draft talk about Kia Nurse and the other potential draft picks was especially entertaining and impressive; collectively, everyone completely identified her strengths and weaknesses. In general, the predictions everyone made here about all the players were quite accurate.

I'll be posting sometimes soon about my thoughts about the individual players. I really won't be saying too much that hasn't been said here already, though; everyone here has a very realistic view of the strengths and weaknesses of the Liberty players.

While I agree with the player assessments, there is one team assessment common here that I don't share. There seems to be a lot of focus on our log-jam at the shooting guard spot, and because of our surplus of perimeter players, we should be trading perimeters for post. I don't agree. We don't have ANY perimeter players! I feel that the single biggest problem with the Liberty is that there is no one who can hit the 3 (or even long 2) with any kind of regularity. Tina Charles is drawing triple teams routinely now, and the opposing defense overplays every guard who penetrates, because there is no respect for the Liberty's outside shooting whatsoever. After Kia Nurse's hot start, I really had visions of greatness for this team. I thought she was the shooter we needed. She's not that yet, though; not even close. I actually feel that her reduction in minutes is somewhat justified (although I am routinely baffled by Katie Smith's substitution patterns).

I also don't agree with throwing in the towel just yet on this disappointing season. The season's barely half over, and a lot of teams make the playoffs. I've seen several teams in several sports make far larger comebacks than this, and even win championships. It's hard to envision it happening without someone really stepping up from the perimeter, but it's going to take a few more losses before the Liberty should stop putting out the players they think give them the best chance to win. Once it's really over, I have no objection to doing into development and evaluation mode, but it's just a little too soon in my book right now. And I never believe in going into full-out tank mode. I believe that the bad habits caused by a tanking environment far outweigh getting a slightly higher pick, unless you're genuinely going to replace the entire team. I'm OK with getting the younger players in when it's all over, and if we lose a little more and get a better draft pick because of it, fine. But I think this team needs to find some focus and intensity more than it needs a couple of slots in the draft.

OK, we're getting near game time; there's no reason to actually believe that it all begins tonight, but it really needs to begin tonight! Go Kia, Kia, Kiah, and Bria!!!


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
This is my first post here in the Liberty folder--hi, everyone!

I've been a big Liberty fan since the 2015 season. I watched a few games before that, but didn't really get drawn in with a rooting interest. Since then, I've watched the majority of their games.

I am so glad to find these message boards! There is virtually nowhere to discuss the team; neither the WNBA site nor the Liberty site have any kind of online community, as far as I can tell. And none of the people I talk sports with care about the WNBA in the slightest.

So I'm happy to find this folder, and astonished to see how knowledgeable and civil it is! I just binge read this folder. I did not intend to do that, but I started reading, and I just kept going. I'd been looking for a some intelligent on-line discussion of the Liberty for a while, and here I found more than I could have possibly hoped for. This is truly sports talk with substance.

Where are the people who insult everyone who disagrees? Where are the people suggesting trades like "Rebecca Allen, Kia Vaughn, and our 2nd round next year to Phoenix for Griner and Taurasi?" Where are the out of town trash-talking trolls? No, here, people grant each other their points, the trades are discussed in a way that tries to show how the trade genuinely helps both teams, and the out of town fans contribute valuable perspective! What's up with that? I've never seen anything like this before! Smile

It was very interesting to have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight as I read your comments from this season (and the off season before it). The pre-draft talk about Kia Nurse and the other potential draft picks was especially entertaining and impressive; collectively, everyone completely identified her strengths and weaknesses. In general, the predictions everyone made here about all the players were quite accurate.

I'll be posting sometimes soon about my thoughts about the individual players. I really won't be saying too much that hasn't been said here already, though; everyone here has a very realistic view of the strengths and weaknesses of the Liberty players.

While I agree with the player assessments, there is one team assessment common here that I don't share. There seems to be a lot of focus on our log-jam at the shooting guard spot, and because of our surplus of perimeter players, we should be trading perimeters for post. I don't agree. We don't have ANY perimeter players! I feel that the single biggest problem with the Liberty is that there is no one who can hit the 3 (or even long 2) with any kind of regularity. Tina Charles is drawing triple teams routinely now, and the opposing defense overplays every guard who penetrates, because there is no respect for the Liberty's outside shooting whatsoever. After Kia Nurse's hot start, I really had visions of greatness for this team. I thought she was the shooter we needed. She's not that yet, though; not even close. I actually feel that her reduction in minutes is somewhat justified (although I am routinely baffled by Katie Smith's substitution patterns).

I also don't agree with throwing in the towel just yet on this disappointing season. The season's barely half over, and a lot of teams make the playoffs. I've seen several teams in several sports make far larger comebacks than this, and even win championships. It's hard to envision it happening without someone really stepping up from the perimeter, but it's going to take a few more losses before the Liberty should stop putting out the players they think give them the best chance to win. Once it's really over, I have no objection to doing into development and evaluation mode, but it's just a little too soon in my book right now. And I never believe in going into full-out tank mode. I believe that the bad habits caused by a tanking environment far outweigh getting a slightly higher pick, unless you're genuinely going to replace the entire team. I'm OK with getting the younger players in when it's all over, and if we lose a little more and get a better draft pick because of it, fine. But I think this team needs to find some focus and intensity more than it needs a couple of slots in the draft.

OK, we're getting near game time; there's no reason to actually believe that it all begins tonight, but it really needs to begin tonight! Go Kia, Kia, Kiah, and Bria!!!


Welcome! I appreciate your optimism. From a person who’s normally the optimistic one I’m hoping you’re right. In spite of wanting a high pick I’m still rooting like crazy.

Don’t worry about the double post. Mods can remove.



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 6:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i am not a fan of KLS, she is already injury prone to me. im not gonna take a chance on my lottery pick on her if i was runinng this team. i prefer Collier over her.

like a said on the other thread, as of right now, a post i would draft unless something drastically changes on the defensive end Via-trade/free agency before the draft of next year.


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PostPosted: 07/05/18 6:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
Terribly sorry about the double post! How do I delete this and the duplicate?


The 2004 internet does not delete!



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 8:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
i am not a fan of KLS, she is already injury prone to me. im not gonna take a chance on my lottery pick on her if i was runinng this team. i prefer Collier over her.

like a said on the other thread, as of right now, a post i would draft unless something drastically changes on the defensive end Via-trade/free agency before the draft of next year.


I like Collier and think she will transition nicely to the 3 spot in the WNBA. I like that she can post up and also face the basket. She’s a little underrated. I can much better embrace an argument for taking Collier over Durr or Arike since Collier gives you a legit 3 spot player from day 1. She would add speed, athleticism and much-needed energy and hustle to a team that looks ready for AARP when playing transition defense. And she could play the 4 spot with those lineups that Katie loves so much without being a total liability on D and on the boards.

Having her would help the team transition to one that should be built around Nurse (chemistry) and Boyd on the perimeter moving forward. While I like KLS, I wouldn’t be mad at drafting Collier at all. In her own way, she’d also give the team the matchup versatility they thought they’d have this year.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 07/05/18 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
i am not a fan of KLS, she is already injury prone to me. im not gonna take a chance on my lottery pick on her if i was runinng this team. i prefer Collier over her.

like a said on the other thread, as of right now, a post i would draft unless something drastically changes on the defensive end Via-trade/free agency before the draft of next year.


I like Collier and think she will transition nicely to the 3 spot in the WNBA. I like that she can post up and also face the basket. She’s a little underrated. I can much better embrace an argument for taking Collier over Durr or Arike since Collier gives you a legit 3 spot player from day 1. She would add speed, athleticism and much-needed energy and hustle to a team that looks ready for AARP when playing transition defense. And she could play the 4 spot with those lineups that Katie loves so much without being a total liability on D and on the boards.

Having her would help the team transition to one that should be built around Nurse (chemistry) and Boyd on the perimeter moving forward. While I like KLS, I wouldn’t be mad at drafting Collier at all. In her own way, she’d also give the team the matchup versatility they thought they’d have this year.


I almost always agree with you but I am in such a different space on this argument.

Ogunbowlae and Durr are easily double digit scorer in the W, they both have athleticism and star quality, and would probably from day 1 be the 2nd option on this Liberty team.

Tonight was another night of going 6 guards deep of mediocrity. You put in Durr or Ogunbowale and move on from the Prince/Rodgers year and you've actually got a decent future rotation where everyone left has a role.

Boyd
Durr or Ogunbowle/Hartley
Nurse/Zellous

Boyd can start with Nurse and whoever between Ogunbowale and Durr because they both have an outside shot. Og and Durr are the designated first option on the perimeter, Nurse provides complimentary defense and shooting, Boyd runs the up tempo offense and provides more perimeter defense, Hartley provides scoring off the bench at the 1 and 2, Zellous provides leadership and defense off the bench at the 2 and 3. ANd the whole rotation fits nicely with Charle as the star, we would still have to resolve the rest of the post, but that is for another discussion.

I'm not against KLS but we would still need a guard who can get their own if we have her at the 3, and I like Collier but not as a lottery pick, and I would rather risk her as an undersized 4 than buy into her as full-time SF, and as long as we have Tina we don't need to use our pick on back up PFs. If it is a choice between Collier and KLS at the SF spot I would take KLS every time.


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PostPosted: 07/05/18 10:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It shows how good the draft is I guess, if we all have a wide range of what we are looking for. I don’t dispute the double digit scoring aspect for either player. I just don’t think that’s enough. OTOH, if either shows exceptional ability to make her teammates better as a senior, my opinion might change. I just think we are beyond the point of needing either a 5’8” or 5’10” guard whose primary attribute is scoring. We need players with more of a range of skill. Or multiple attributes. Is Arike better than Odyssey Sims in anything besides maybe scoring? She’s a depth player for LA. Is Durr as good as Kayla McBride? She’s a big scorer and low assist player on a team that has never been good as long as she’s been on it. Players who only score and do not much else don’t help you win.

By all means, if either player shows more of the playmaking skills that I’d want, then I’m more open. Until then, I think we need something that adjusts the matchup equation when we have none really to exploit once Tina is removed from the equation.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 12:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My counter argument

Tonight we scored 67 points

We have the 10th worst offense

ATM we have one double digit scorer with Nurse clocking in at 2nd most ppg with 9.3

So yes a player whose #1 skill is scoring would be a good addition for NY

Also both players in question shot 40% from 3 and have pretty remarkable physiques for being 5' 10" and 5' 8" respectively

A player who can score a lot will help out their teammates by simply making the other teams defense work harder. If Durr or Ogunbowale live up to their potential they will require double teams making it easier for the other perimeter players to score. Right now team can double and triple Charles and are rarely made to pay for it by the rest of the team, hopefully that would be different if we had an elite scorer on the perimeter.

My comps for them would be for better or worse Sims, Young Prince, Loyd, McBride, Sykes, Hayes, healthy R. Williams, C. Gray without elite play making skill, Deshields pretty much somewhere in that range. Not saying they have identical games to any of those players but I think they will be in the same range career wise with their ability to score (I think they're both a little bigger and stronger than say Plum or K. Mitchell and better scorers than say A. Gray or Davis).

Luckily we will have a whole college season to discuss this.


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PostPosted: 07/06/18 2:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, at the bottom of the page, I saw the words "Kia Clearance Sale." Wasn't sure if it was an ad or a post! Very Happy


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PostPosted: 07/06/18 4:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, another loss. Oh well. They played one good half today. Couldn't follow it up and again, it was garbage time late in the 4th.

I'd say the Liberty need 5 out of the next 6 to have any kind of chance at all, so basically it's two more losses before I personally wave the white flag. I sure couldn't blame anyone for waving it already. It even seemed like the players were waving it with the way they played late in the game: it seemed like they were beyond caring.

Here's my evaluation of our roster at this very bleak time:

TINA CHARLES - I see nothing wrong with our superstar. Tina's been double and triple teamed more than I've never seen before. Opposing teams are daring the Liberty to beat them from outside, and no one has been able to make them pay for it. We hit some jumpers last night, and all of a sudden, Tina puts up All-Star numbers. A complete and total player; we're lucky to have her.

KIA NURSE - Kia is probably our second most important player moving forward. I think her upside is greater than anyone else on the roster. Love her energy, love her defense. I am completely baffled over whether she will be a good shooter in this league. She was touted as the best 3-point shooter coming out of the draft, and she set the whole league ablaze with her early performance, but when watching her, I was a little surprised that she could be successful with the way she shoots: others in this folder have noted the low and slow release. As she began to cool off and miss, I began to wonder. Sometimes, an athlete has an unorthodox style that works. But I usually have a rough time believing it without seeing it work for an extended period of time. If Kia can be a reliable outside shooter, she'll be the Liberty's 2nd best player.

KIAH STOKES - Doing Kiah next because I can totally see her being on a successful Liberty team, role depending on the rest of the Liberty roster and also on how much of her offensive game she is able to recover. Her rebounding ability, particularly on the defensive boards, makes her a useful piece to just about any puzzle. Without her, the Liberty get killed on the defensive glass. With her, they are a good defensive rebounding team. Watch her take a step as soon as the opposing shot goes up. It's almost always right to the perfect place to box out. Now watch Kia Vaughn when an enemy shot goes up for contrast. Stokes makes boxing out look easy. Her offensive game needs to be better, or rather, she needs to be more assertive with it. A few games ago, she had a drive to the basket from the top of the key that was awesome. I don't think she's tried another move like that all year!

SHAVONTE ZELLOUS - It seems to me like the Liberty are at their best this year when Shavonte is playing well. Love the energy, do not like the repeated technical fouls. Z is the player who most gives opposing defenses something else to think about besides Tina Charles.

BRITTANY BOYD - Everyone in this folder seems to recognize Brittany for what she is: a fast energetic creator with very little scoring or finishing ability. She made a reverse layup last night, but that's the exception to the rule. I could see her being a useful part of a team with a lot of good scorers, but that's not us right now.

EPIPHANY PRINCE - I'm listing her here because she's had two pretty good games in a row. I have a rough time getting excited about her. She's a complete player, but there's nothing about her that's particularly good. She's probably one of our best options at this point, but she doesn't do enough to take the pressure off Tina.

BRIA HARTLEY - Another guard who is fine as a backup, less than you'd like at starter. Doesn't have great court vision, but given that, makes very sensible decisions and rarely takes ill-advised shots. I don't know if it's justified, but I feel best about seeing her take a 3-pointer these days more than just about anyone else.

SUGAR RODGERS - Might as well follow the steady Bria with the player who probably takes the most ill-advised shots, at least on a per-minute basis. Sugar has always been that way, but you used to be able to take the good with the bad due to her better FG Pct. Now it's mostly just bad. This team was built to depend on Sugar for outside scoring, and she's pretty much been a no-show on that front. Sugar's defense is as equally inconsistent: sometimes it's great, but a lot of times, it's almost non-existant.

KIA VAUGHN - Despite my unfavorable comparison to Stokes when it comes to defensive rebounding, I think I like Kia Vaughn more than most people here. Her running hook shot is a genuine offensive weapon, and she's fairly reliable with the medium jomper too. She's a body who's willing to bang.

AMANDA ZAHUI B - Every now and then she scores and excites, but she can't guard anybody. From the posters here, I gather that the coaching staff is not too happy with her grasp of the overall team defense. I'm not thrilled with Zahui B at this point.

MARISSA COLEMAN - I haven't seen enough of her to really have that much of an opinion. She seems to be OK with the 3 pointer, but just OK. I don't like the small lineup with her at the 4 any more than everyone else here.

REBECCA ALLEN - People here have pointed out how Rebecca's game is very one-dimensional, and that teams have a very easy time defensing her because of that. I agree--she needs to develop her game and bring something new to the table, or she's not a valuable asset to us or any other team.

Nobody has improved this year as far as I can see. Whether it's the coaching, the players, the move to Westchester, or a combination of them all, the season is a dumpster fire, and this demoralized team looks nothing like the team I've known for the past few years that consistently gave more effort than their opponents.


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PostPosted: 07/06/18 6:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
i am not a fan of KLS, she is already injury prone to me. im not gonna take a chance on my lottery pick on her if i was runinng this team. i prefer Collier over her.

like a said on the other thread, as of right now, a post i would draft unless something drastically changes on the defensive end Via-trade/free agency before the draft of next year.


I like Collier and think she will transition nicely to the 3 spot in the WNBA. I like that she can post up and also face the basket. She’s a little underrated. I can much better embrace an argument for taking Collier over Durr or Arike since Collier gives you a legit 3 spot player from day 1. She would add speed, athleticism and much-needed energy and hustle to a team that looks ready for AARP when playing transition defense. And she could play the 4 spot with those lineups that Katie loves so much without being a total liability on D and on the boards.

Having her would help the team transition to one that should be built around Nurse (chemistry) and Boyd on the perimeter moving forward. While I like KLS, I wouldn’t be mad at drafting Collier at all. In her own way, she’d also give the team the matchup versatility they thought they’d have this year.



Collier's game is pretty smooth, effortlessly when she runs down the court. think of Bonner...with them long arms wingspan. she can shoot anywhere on the court midrange, 3pt shooting. she can drive to the basket with ease. yeah she's one of my favorites

like Clay said on the other thread, its time to wave the white flag Katie, i never seen a Liberty team play this poorly on the defensive end in awhile. Liambeer definitely put a stamp on his defense/principles.

now it seems like all those principles are gone. yes we do need scoring. yes we do need another star. but we all know defense and rebounding wins you championships.


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PostPosted: 07/06/18 9:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
So, at the bottom of the page, I saw the words "Kia Clearance Sale." Wasn't sure if it was an ad or a post! Very Happy


rofl!



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m just waking up angry with this one thought. The sheer effort isn’t there to the extent that they need. How many times in the last three games have people not picked up the right man going back down court after MADE baskets? That should NEVER happen. Let alone the transition D after misses where nobody can be bothered to stop the ball (other than Boyd and Nurse) until the D is already broken down. And poor Tina carrying the team on her back while some of her teammates can’t be bothered to play D. She did an admirable job guarding EDD. Scoring, passing and rebounding vs. double teams and such a poor response from her teammates.

At this point I’m willing to watch Boyd, Zahui and Nurse play 30 minutes each and it’s not only for developmental reasons. We know those three will give it everything they’ve got even if there will be mental mistakes in the process. I’m tired of seeing the lack of heart. And I love Z. She’s one of my fav players but she’s culpable too. She said in an article before the season that the team needed to show more heart in one and dones. So where’s your presence and leadership now that the team is struggling?



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For this first time in a while, I'm actually rooting for a different team this season. I've given up on the Liberty this season. From Smith's unexplainable rotations, her unwilling ability to have her team play D, to not using Nurse and Zahui B more and mostly for the team being displaced in Westchester. There's just no desire to watch this team anymore this season.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 10:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel you. I’m trying to hang in there plus obviously I have the season tickets. At some point they’ll have to admit the obvious...that they’re going nowhere and they need to look harder at the younger players. When they do I feel like at least viewing their development will be a plus in this otherwise horrible season.

Vegas seems to be finding its way under Laimbeer. I’ll keep an eye on them too I guess.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Oh and assuming we miss the playoffs, our odds of moving up are 24.8%. Not great but hardly impossible.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I feel you. I’m trying to hang in there plus obviously I have the season tickets. At some point they’ll have to admit the obvious...that they’re going nowhere and they need to look harder at the younger players.


Oh where do you sit ?
and you have not gotten to that point yet ?



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’ve gotten pretty close to that point. I’m just figuring Katie will get to that point too sooner or later.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 12:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You wonder if Charles will get 'injured' once the playoff spots start to look really distant rather than just unlikely. You could imagine her not wanting to bother carrying the offense on her back at that point, plus winning becomes a negative in some ways at some point.



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 5:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LMAO. Neither Durr or AO play any D or pass the ball, you can have them both Laughing Laughing


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PostPosted: 07/06/18 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding the discussion about Samuelson, I watched the whole UConn-ND game to really get a feel. Offensively, I like the handle for a 6'3" player and really like the passing. I think that height will be tough to match up against.

On defense, she struggled, as she did rebounding. However, she did play through an ankle injury that she had surgery on in April, so whether that impacted her play is up in the air. I'll say if she was reasonably mobile for a 6'3" player while playing on an ankle that required surgery after the season, that bodes well for significant improvement,

Here's the thing to me with the other parts of her game. You don't want to look at her junior year as being representative of what she will always be. Players alter their diets, their workouts and just learn things that improve their style of play. I'm looking at physical attributes that will carry over to the pro game. Her problem on defense is the size of her body. Her lateral movement is acceptable. Her length is very good. So the question becomes, is her body projectible to add muscle? I'd say the answer is yes. Her legs are rail thin. Her arms are thin and not terribly muscular. Her shoulders, however, are not thin. That demonstrates to me that her likelihood of adding muscle and overall body strength are good, because she has a projectible frame. And I admit she was just bouncing off of people, especially under the glass. But first off, was the ankle (balance and base) a factor in that? And again, the question is not what she is today. The question is, what can she become? I think her body frame leaves room for improvement.

Also, I don't want a guard 5'10" or under unless that guard proves to be a very gifted passer. I've had enough of the players who score and bring little else to the table. I like Arike and I like Durr. I don't, however, love either one for NY unless they upgrade the playmaking aspects of their play. We have enough guards who score but don't have a complete profile otherwise. A lineup with KLS and Nurse will wind up causing matchup problems for opponents once you put four players 6 feet or better on the floor together. Especially when four of those players can actually pass the ball and make their teammates better.

Again, KLS would not be my preferred choice. I'd prefer Ionescu (if she declares) or either of McCowan or Brown. I do think for the Liberty KLS is a better choice than smaller guards who may not have versatility. We have too many already.


There's that being naive / blind to UCONN players having deficiencies as i spoke about . She was a horrible defender before she had ankle surgery a FULL year before the ND - UCONN match up . Her minute restrictions had been over since the December match up with ND so im not buying her ankle as an excuse tbh . But If the Libs want KLS im fine with that , we will take Ogumbowale or Durr if we are anywhere near the Top 6 picks Again #WFFL


Wrong. Get your facts straight. KLS suffered the injury during the Cal game when their player landed on the back of her ankle when she was going up for a rebound. That tore her ligaments and tendon. Minutes had nothing to do with her injury as she decided to put off surgery and play in pain. They had problems with the brace and it was adapted to try and stop the ankle going over. She played in pain for the rest of the season and was an AA basically on 1 leg. 4 fouls, 2 of which were bogus in the semi early in the game screwed with her and 2 of our other players.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 07/06/18 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballjunkie wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding the discussion about Samuelson, I watched the whole UConn-ND game to really get a feel. Offensively, I like the handle for a 6'3" player and really like the passing. I think that height will be tough to match up against.

On defense, she struggled, as she did rebounding. However, she did play through an ankle injury that she had surgery on in April, so whether that impacted her play is up in the air. I'll say if she was reasonably mobile for a 6'3" player while playing on an ankle that required surgery after the season, that bodes well for significant improvement,

Here's the thing to me with the other parts of her game. You don't want to look at her junior year as being representative of what she will always be. Players alter their diets, their workouts and just learn things that improve their style of play. I'm looking at physical attributes that will carry over to the pro game. Her problem on defense is the size of her body. Her lateral movement is acceptable. Her length is very good. So the question becomes, is her body projectible to add muscle? I'd say the answer is yes. Her legs are rail thin. Her arms are thin and not terribly muscular. Her shoulders, however, are not thin. That demonstrates to me that her likelihood of adding muscle and overall body strength are good, because she has a projectible frame. And I admit she was just bouncing off of people, especially under the glass. But first off, was the ankle (balance and base) a factor in that? And again, the question is not what she is today. The question is, what can she become? I think her body frame leaves room for improvement.

Also, I don't want a guard 5'10" or under unless that guard proves to be a very gifted passer. I've had enough of the players who score and bring little else to the table. I like Arike and I like Durr. I don't, however, love either one for NY unless they upgrade the playmaking aspects of their play. We have enough guards who score but don't have a complete profile otherwise. A lineup with KLS and Nurse will wind up causing matchup problems for opponents once you put four players 6 feet or better on the floor together. Especially when four of those players can actually pass the ball and make their teammates better.

Again, KLS would not be my preferred choice. I'd prefer Ionescu (if she declares) or either of McCowan or Brown. I do think for the Liberty KLS is a better choice than smaller guards who may not have versatility. We have too many already.


There's that being naive / blind to UCONN players having deficiencies as i spoke about . She was a horrible defender before she had ankle surgery a FULL year before the ND - UCONN match up . Her minute restrictions had been over since the December match up with ND so im not buying her ankle as an excuse tbh . But If the Libs want KLS im fine with that , we will take Ogumbowale or Durr if we are anywhere near the Top 6 picks Again #WFFL


Wrong. Get your facts straight. KLS suffered the injury during the Cal game when their player landed on the back of her ankle when she was going up for a rebound. That tore her ligaments and tendon. Minutes had nothing to do with her injury as she decided to put off surgery and play in pain. They had problems with the brace and it was adapted to try and stop the ankle going over. She played in pain for the rest of the season and was an AA basically on 1 leg. 4 fouls, 2 of which were bogus in the semi early in the game screwed with her and 2 of our other players.


Sureeeee....thats it Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 8:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This article confirms further injury against Cal. Since she had surgery, obviously she wasn’t 100%. People don’t have surgery for no reason. If you don’t like her game, ok. If you think her injury history is a concern moving forward, ok. But let’s not ignore the facts in the process.

http://dailycampus.com/stories/2018/4/13/womens-basketball-samuelson-has-surgery-on-ankle



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I played one season with extensive ligament damage in one ankle (essentially without the tape job the ankle just flops there at the end of the leg - it's pretty gross) and it was not fun. Lots of pain. The good part was that after surgery it only took about three months to be back almost as good as new and it has never bothered me since. So assuming it was a similar thing, I think she really should be back full strength for next season.



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 1:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
My counter argument

Tonight we scored 67 points

We have the 10th worst offense

ATM we have one double digit scorer with Nurse clocking in at 2nd most ppg with 9.3

So yes a player whose #1 skill is scoring would be a good addition for NY

Also both players in question shot 40% from 3 and have pretty remarkable physiques for being 5' 10" and 5' 8" respectively

A player who can score a lot will help out their teammates by simply making the other teams defense work harder. If Durr or Ogunbowale live up to their potential they will require double teams making it easier for the other perimeter players to score. Right now team can double and triple Charles and are rarely made to pay for it by the rest of the team, hopefully that would be different if we had an elite scorer on the perimeter.

My comps for them would be for better or worse Sims, Young Prince, Loyd, McBride, Sykes, Hayes, healthy R. Williams, C. Gray without elite play making skill, Deshields pretty much somewhere in that range. Not saying they have identical games to any of those players but I think they will be in the same range career wise with their ability to score (I think they're both a little bigger and stronger than say Plum or K. Mitchell and better scorers than say A. Gray or Davis).

Luckily we will have a whole college season to discuss this.


Arike is also an energy player, a needed quality as well.



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PostPosted: 07/07/18 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Im not saying her injury was mot real i mean the gal had surgery for Crist sake . Crazy how when she has a great game at UCONN shes back and 100% but when she performs poorly its awee shes hurt! Tired of it...



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 4:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not sure I can do this trip 5 more times. They’re 1-7 in the games I’ve attended. I’ve left early 4 times.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Not sure I can do this trip 5 more times. They’re 1-7 in the games I’ve attended. I’ve left early 4 times.


I was going to go next Sunday, but don't feel like making the trip to watch them lose badly again.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I may take the loss on the tickets so as not to pay the metro north at this point. The only plus to the blowouts is being able to catch the early train.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 6:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With them playing so poorly now, I have to wonder if by the end of the season, they'll get under 1k a game.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 7:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Watching the Mystics-Storm. In two possessions I saw Bird with a midrange pull-up and Toliver with a 3 with Clark right in her face. And I got to thinking I can’t remember the last time the Libs made a basket that had a really high degree of difficulty. I’m not kidding. I feel like the last time was when Tina hit a bunch of ridiculous fadeaways in the first quarter of the first Vegas game.

Well. I take it back. Piph hit a teardrop plus a foul today. But those are few and far between.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 8:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vySY9YunYX0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Katie definitely looks frustrated, she's trying to stay positive but the body language shows.

she needs to change it up like Liambeer did when they were struggling. i mean...what else to lose? try something new Katie maybe put Bec Allen in the lineup and see if this team can wake up


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PostPosted: 07/08/18 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm definitely surprised she hasn't made more changes. There's been the very occasional switch, and Piph got promoted into the lineup, but Hartley, Zellous and Vaughn have essentially been starters for every game when they've been available. Try Boyd, try Nurse, try Zahui B, try something. Why keep trotting out the same group for loss after loss when there are so many similarly talented players up and down the bench? No way on earth Laimbeer would've stuck with the same group this long.



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PostPosted: 07/08/18 9:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She’s pretty good at answering the barrage of questions.



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Damn....some people want to fire K.Smith halfway through her first season Laughing... Let Katie get 2 or 3 lottery picks like most of the other Head Coaches before you give her a pink slip.


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PostPosted: 07/10/18 5:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Damn....some people want to fire K.Smith halfway through her first season Laughing... Let Katie get 2 or 3 lottery picks like most of the other Head Coaches before you give her a pink slip.


She's got four lottery picks on the roster now...



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PostPosted: 07/10/18 5:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Damn....some people want to fire K.Smith halfway through her first season Laughing... Let Katie get 2 or 3 lottery picks like most of the other Head Coaches before you give her a pink slip.


She's got four lottery picks on the roster now...


Lottery picks that were drafted by other teams...

By your count,the liberty have 4 lottery picks....How many lottery picks do the other 11 WNBA teams have?


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