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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/25/libertys-end-how-a-great-new-york-team-was-banished-to-the-suburbs?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true



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tfan



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York Liberty moving to County Center, hoping to build Westchester fan base


Quote:
“I hear Westchester really supports basketball,” said Zellous, who got a taste of the arena during an intrasquad game. “We’ll prepare and whatever happens happens. But we have some diehard Liberty fans and some of those fans will be there, for sure.”


toad455



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

these articles need to edit their capacity quotes. It's only 2,300 but can be doubled by some force of nature. We shall see what's reported tonight, but I know for a fact that the Westchester Knicks have draw over 3,000 for several games.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

nm



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://highposthoops.com/2018/05/25/wnba-lynx-liberty-tina-charles/



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/25/18 6:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
New York Liberty moving to County Center, hoping to build Westchester fan base


Quote:
“I hear Westchester really supports basketball,” said Zellous, who got a taste of the arena during an intrasquad game. “We’ll prepare and whatever happens happens. But we have some diehard Liberty fans and some of those fans will be there, for sure.”


Key word = 'some'


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PostPosted: 05/26/18 9:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/25/libertys-end-how-a-great-new-york-team-was-banished-to-the-suburbs?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true


not a great article...anyone who's been to 1 mystics game the last 10 years would have a good ROFL at the Mystics numbers

but the Libs are not the same case I've brought up the Math Problem before It is impossible for me to say 2315 fans a game can be more profitable than 9000 fans even if 6-7 are paid and the rest are giveaways (Who SHOW by the way...big time)

They aren't even pitching individual tix...just filling some of the funkier seats with youth teams in the endcourts (And there is some FUNK there)

I'm glad someone else brought up that it seems NBA owners are intentionally trying to devalue the league. I think this will come up in the pending CBA discussions.

I will post my main thoughts on the game thread regarding WCC but there is a lot of good out of a horrible situation.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder since it’s a prime location if MSG gets a piece of the gate in the big time concerts. That could rake in a pretty penny.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 6:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Vaughn activated, Russell released, according to .com's Transactions page.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thx for update.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 7:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the style of offense being used by Katie should help Vaughn. I don’t expect her to play back to the basket nearly as much.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 8:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To The Liberty:

Why did it take us fans so long to find out why Prince was not in training camp because of a concussion ? Why did we have to find out from another poster?
THIS IS NOT RIGHT FOR YOUR FANS !

THESE ARE THE FANS YOU WANT TO SPEND METRO NORTH TICKETS
AND TICKETS IN WCC

DO WE DESERVE MORE ?

i THINK SO

What about you Liberty Fans ?



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mathmaggie



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 8:22 pm    ::: HItting Dolan in his pocket, where it hurts and could matter Reply Reply with quote

Hi everybody!
I wanted to make everyone aware of an article that appeared in the Daily News about MSG and the Liberty. Please see below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/msg-lose-tax-cut-giving-n-y-liberty-boot-pol-warns-article-1.3874880

As a result of that article, I wrote to Gale Brewer, the Manhattan Borough President in support of her and her plan to change the tax abatement for MSG as a result of their decision to kick the Liberty out of the garden. I hope that many people will write to her.
Her address is:

Manhattan Borough President Gale A. Brewer
1 Centre Street, 19th Floor
New York, NY 10007


root_thing



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Vaughn activated, Russell released, according to .com's Transactions page.


Does "released" rather than "waived" indicate that Russell was a replacement player?

The subject continues to be of interest because a team is entitled to an emergency hardship when they have only 9 healthy bodies. I originally thought it was 8. So, if Boyd, Prince, and Rodgers are still out then the Liberty would remain eligible. Perhaps this indicates that one of those three will be ready to play on Tuesday. Or it's also possible that NY intends to bring in a replacement player, but they prefer to add a guard instead.

Of course, they may just feel it's not worth the effort. Nine is enough. Smile



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

if Prince, Boyd & Rodgers are all out, I'd rather them bring back Faris to add another guard. With Vaughn back we have 4 posts.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 10:21 pm    ::: Re: HItting Dolan in his pocket, where it hurts and could ma Reply Reply with quote

mathmaggie wrote:
Hi everybody!
I wanted to make everyone aware of an article that appeared in the Daily News about MSG and the Liberty. Please see below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/msg-lose-tax-cut-giving-n-y-liberty-boot-pol-warns-article-1.3874880

As a result of that article, I wrote to Gale Brewer, the Manhattan Borough President in support of her and her plan to change the tax abatement for MSG as a result of their decision to kick the Liberty out of the garden. I hope that many people will write to her.
Her address is:

Manhattan Borough President Gale A. Brewer
1 Centre Street, 19th Floor
New York, NY 10007


Thanks so much for posting this. I'm writing to Gale Brewer.



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PostPosted: 05/26/18 11:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's something I've just noticed that is fascinating. After two games, the Liberty player with the most total minutes on the court is...

Kia Nurse. She played almost 29 minutes in Game One and just over 34 minutes in Game Two.

I hope that Prince, Rodgers, and Boyd will all be back on Tuesday or soon. But I want to see Kia Nurse on the court for the Liberty for 28-30 minutes a game, no matter which guards and small forwards have to sit. Undoubtedly she'll have her ups and downs as a rookie. But she's been incredibly impressive.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 12:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think we should place all these expectations on a rookie so early in the process. I've been watching Kia pretty much since her first game with UConn. She's capable of big games, but she's also prone to getting amped up and trying too hard when she succumbs to visions of glory. We saw this after her 33 point performance as a 19-year-old at the 2015 PanAm games, leading Canada to a gold medal over the US. Afterward, Kia went back to UConn and tried to be a star. That led to her worst start in any season of her college career. Nurse then went to the 2016 Olympics, had one really good game against Serbia, but otherwise shot an abysmal 25% for the tournament. I remember watching Canada's quarter-final loss against France. Kia kept driving to the basket or posting up. She was able to get to the rim time and again, which should have been the hard part. But instead, Kia kept missing the lay-ups. She ended up shooting 3-17 in that game.

Katie Smith is already running plays for Nurse like she's some kind of go-to player. I think it's a mistake. Just let Kia succeed while playing naturally and let her build up more confidence first. Smith should watch what the Yankees are doing with Gleyber Torres. In a star-studded lineup, Torres has been the team's best player over the last three weeks. Nonetheless, Aaron Boone keeps hitting him in the 9th spot. Things are going good, so why not leave well enough alone? It's so hard to develop young players, and their confidence is easily shaken. Why put more pressure on them? Certainly Liberty fans have reason for optimism based on what they've seen of Nurse so far. However, I think people need to curb their enthusiasm -- and that goes for the coach too.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 1:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I don't think we should place all these expectations on a rookie so early in the process. I've been watching Kia pretty much since her first game with UConn. She's capable of big games, but she's also prone to getting amped up and trying too hard when she succumbs to visions of glory. We saw this after her 33 point performance as a 19-year-old at the 2015 PanAm games, leading Canada to a gold medal over the US. Afterward, Kia went back to UConn and tried to be a star. That led to her worst start in any season of her college career. Nurse then went to the 2016 Olympics, had one really good game against Serbia, but otherwise shot an abysmal 25% for the tournament. I remember watching Canada's quarter-final loss against France. Kia kept driving to the basket or posting up. She was able to get to the rim time and again, which should have been the hard part. But instead, Kia kept missing the lay-ups. She ended up shooting 3-17 in that game.

Katie Smith is already running plays for Nurse like she's some kind of go-to player. I think it's a mistake. Just let Kia succeed while playing naturally and let her build up more confidence first. Smith should watch what the Yankees are doing with Gleyber Torres. In a star-studded lineup, Torres has been the team's best player over the last three weeks. Nonetheless, Aaron Boone keeps hitting him in the 9th spot. Things are going good, so why not leave well enough alone? It's so hard to develop young players, and their confidence is easily shaken. Why put more pressure on them? Certainly Liberty fans have reason for optimism based on what they've seen of Nurse so far. However, I think people need to curb their enthusiasm -- and that goes for the coach too.


I said that as a rookie she'll of course have her ups and downs. I believe Nurse should be on the court a lot--especially since there's no way this team will win this year's WNBA championship whether Nurse plays wonderfully or horribly. She looks to me like an important part of the Liberty's future.

Perhaps Katie Smith should indeed "curb her enthusiasm" about Kia Nurse. But why should I? There's no way that my enthusiasm will hurt Nurse or anyone else--except perhaps myself if she plays badly in her next 32 games and my enthusiasm then looks seriously misguided.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 7:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Love to have Nurse on the Dream, but it important to remember a lot of rookies shine in their first few games before they get on the scouting reports. I would be thrilled if I was a Liberty fan though.


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PostPosted: 05/27/18 9:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

Perhaps Katie Smith should indeed "curb her enthusiasm" about Kia Nurse. But why should I? There's no way that my enthusiasm will hurt Nurse or anyone else--except perhaps myself if she plays badly in her next 32 games and my enthusiasm then looks seriously misguided.


I wasn't only referring to you. Just because a post follows yours doesn't mean it's aimed primarily at you. My words were meant as a warning to all fans based on Nurse's history. Obviously, what fans feel doesn't impact play on the court. For all I care, you can have fantasies of marrying Kia Nurse -- knock yourself out!



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 9:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don’t think it’s necessarily that Katie Smith is running a lot of stuff for Nurse as it’s been situational. Z was in foul trouble due to that bogus third foul. She sat the whole first half. With all the missing players and Nurse coming off the bench, she was in lineups where she was often the best or second best player on the floor. When certain players return, we will see how that impacts Nurse. Hopefully it will mean less PG time and more time at her natural positions.

She does have to get better as a mid-range shooter and finisher. And yes scouting reports will probably force her to adapt. But she’s already the best defensive player and second-best passer (possibly best) on the team. That won’t change.

For me, I’m just projecting forward. Nurse was a 45% 3 point shooter in college so we know she can shoot. Her FTs are automatic and she has a knack for drawing contact. The pro game is different from college with the spacing and the wider lane. I feel like that should help her style of play moving forward as well.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 10:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wanted to see the Lynx actually pressure Nurse when the Liberty were using her as a point guard in the most recent game, but they never really did. I don't think we've actually seen whether her handle is good enough to be a primary ballhandler in this league yet because it hasn't been tested. Maybe she is, or maybe she isn't and she'll do just fine as a 2/3 anyway, but I'd like to see someone make her vaguely prove it.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 10:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah I think she’s more of a filler one spot player than one you want in your rotation. Could be defensive styles of the teams we’ve played and/or Nurse’s wingspan (hard to steal) that dictate that. But it goes without saying she’s very right-hand dominant with a high dribble. Too much for a true PG. Acceptable for the wing positions but let’s just say I’m hoping Piph and/or Boyd return soon.

Plus side is it says something about her intangibles that she swings between all 3 spots from an IQ standpoint. New teammates, new system, adjustment from college to pro, etc.



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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 05/27/18 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 11:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lib Fan wrote:
To The Liberty:

Why did it take us fans so long to find out why Prince was not in training camp because of a concussion ? Why did we have to find out from another poster?
THIS IS NOT RIGHT FOR YOUR FANS !

THESE ARE THE FANS YOU WANT TO SPEND METRO NORTH TICKETS
AND TICKETS IN WCC

DO WE DESERVE MORE ?

i THINK SO

What about you Liberty Fans ?


I agree. And that post about Piph came from the gambling site Donbest.com in the injuries section. That’s what we are reduced to. Finding out about injuries from a gambling site because we can’t get the info elsewhere.

Season ticket holders here. Living with the trip, expense and trying to find the positives about the building. I can do all that. But we deserve info integral to the team’s performance. Shouldn’t be too much to ask for.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lib Fan wrote:
To The Liberty:

Why did it take us fans so long to find out why Prince was not in training camp because of a concussion ? Why did we have to find out from another poster?
THIS IS NOT RIGHT FOR YOUR FANS !

THESE ARE THE FANS YOU WANT TO SPEND METRO NORTH TICKETS
AND TICKETS IN WCC

DO WE DESERVE MORE ?

i THINK SO

What about you Liberty Fans ?


Of course you're right. Of course it makes no sense to anger and alienate any team's most committed fans.

Alas, speaking about what anyone deserves in DolanWorld leads to a predictable result.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Don Best has updated its injury info for Tuesday:

Boyd out indefinitely.
Piph doubtful.
Kia probable.
Sugar questionable.

Discouraging about Boyd but looks like Piph and Sugar will at least be back before long.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Don Best has updated its injury info for Tuesday:

Boyd out indefinitely.
Piph doubtful.
Kia probable.
Sugar questionable.

Discouraging about Boyd but looks like Piph and Sugar will at least be back before long.


If Boyd is going to be out for most of the season, I think it's time to suspend her for the season. Makes us cutting Lindsay Allen look foolish. Maybe we get Sugar back to be at 10 players at least. PGs currently available: Sydney Colson, Alexis Peterson, Morgan William.

PG: Hartley/[Nurse]
SG: Zellous/Nurse/Rodgers
SF: Coleman/Allen
PF: Charles/Zahui B
C: Stokes/Vaughn



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 12:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Don Best has updated its injury info for Tuesday:

Boyd out indefinitely.
Piph doubtful.
Kia probable.
Sugar questionable.

Discouraging about Boyd but looks like Piph and Sugar will at least be back before long.


Certainly interesting to consider how it is that the Liberty seemingly issues no press release about the health/injury status of players--nor holds a press conference to share this information--yet a gambling site has all these details on Boyd, Prince, Vaughn, and Rodgers.

It's valuable to have these details. Thanks for posting this. But if the only place for fans to get such information is a gambling site, that's ugly.



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PostPosted: 05/27/18 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wow - probable, doubtful, questionable, indefinite. A condition for every situation.


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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.foxsports.com/wnba/story/for-sale-new-york-liberty-courting-potential-new-owners-052918

Quote:
Borders spent a few minutes chatting with Steiner, a sports marketer and leading sports memorabilia collector. Steiner did not immediately return an email from the AP seeking comment on buying the team.

Neither Liberty nor Madison Square Garden officials would comment on specific possible ownership groups, but an MSG spokesman did say that the company ”is continuing to have productive discussions with several prospective ownership groups and remains committed to finding the right steward for the team’s long-term success in New York.”

”To have people interested in buying the Liberty, that’s a really good sign for the W,” the league president said.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com/wnba/story/for-sale-new-york-liberty-courting-potential-new-owners-052918

Quote:
MSG said in a statement to the AP that it has ”lost money every year since its inception and cumulative losses exceed $100 million.”


greater than $100 million losses / 21 years = greater than $4.76 million loss per year. They must count the money the Liberty pays to another part of MSG - the stadium folks. which ends up not being a loss for MSG. But any prospective owner won't have that benefit, and also won't be getting content for their MSG network. How do you talk about losses that big and have 2 prospective buyers?

Quote:
Borders spent a few minutes chatting with Steiner, a sports marketer and leading sports memorabilia collector.


That should be "sports memorabilia seller". But he is just the CEO now of a company he sold. Somewhere I saw it referred to as a $50 million dollar company with 100 employees. They bought the old Yankee stadium for millions and then sold pieces of it.




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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Still wonder if either of these new groups would move the team to Brooklyn or Nassau or even Newark, NJ? Hopefully a deal is worked out.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
stever wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com/wnba/story/for-sale-new-york-liberty-courting-potential-new-owners-052918

Quote:
MSG said in a statement to the AP that it has ”lost money every year since its inception and cumulative losses exceed $100 million.”


greater than $100 million losses / 21 years = greater than $4.76 million loss per year. They must count the money the Liberty pays to another part of MSG - the stadium folks. which ends up not being a loss for MSG. But any prospective owner won't have that benefit, and also won't be getting content for their MSG network. How do you talk about losses that big and have 2 prospective buyers?


This was also the part that stuck out to me Shocked



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com/wnba/story/for-sale-new-york-liberty-courting-potential-new-owners-052918

Quote:
Borders spent a few minutes chatting with Steiner, a sports marketer and leading sports memorabilia collector. Steiner did not immediately return an email from the AP seeking comment on buying the team.

Neither Liberty nor Madison Square Garden officials would comment on specific possible ownership groups, but an MSG spokesman did say that the company ”is continuing to have productive discussions with several prospective ownership groups and remains committed to finding the right steward for the team’s long-term success in New York.”

”To have people interested in buying the Liberty, that’s a really good sign for the W,” the league president said.



And here it is ..........

Quote:
The Liberty say they had fewer than 5,000 fans in paid attendance at most games.


Told ya Dolan knew some things we did not . 10,000 a game with 5000 give aways and 5,000 regular paying customers only looks so good after so long.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 4:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was given comps frequently when the team played in Newark. Comps would typically be available in the MSG lobby for games if you spoke to the right person. Typically general admission seats. Seems like groups and sponsors would be given these for every game.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
stever wrote:
https://www.foxsports.com/wnba/story/for-sale-new-york-liberty-courting-potential-new-owners-052918

Quote:
MSG said in a statement to the AP that it has ”lost money every year since its inception and cumulative losses exceed $100 million.”


greater than $100 million losses / 21 years = greater than $4.76 million loss per year. They must count the money the Liberty pays to another part of MSG - the stadium folks. which ends up not being a loss for MSG. But any prospective owner won't have that benefit, and also won't be getting content for their MSG network. How do you talk about losses that big and have 2 prospective buyers?


I think what you’re saying is that those aren’t the actual losses, but losses in terms of opportunity costs.

That’s why a new buyer won’t be returning them to MSG.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again, any prospective owner needs to think outside the box. We know the old solutions won't work. Essentially what's happening to the Liberty is what has happened to ordinary New Yorkers for decades -- they've gotten priced out of their own neighborhoods. You have to move farther out, you have to pioneer less desirable neighborhoods, you have to find new uses for unwanted spaces and renovate. If they only need to fill 5,000 seats, that actually makes the job easier. It's going to take money, but arts organizations find a way to do it with a combination of fundraising and government help. In this case, your new owner(s) should be willing to spend money. Then, it's a matter of getting some sponsors and a bit of government help.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So maybe $2 million a year is conservative ...

All in all, though, why say you lost that much money if you expect to "sell" the team? And why say you papered half the house every night if you expect someone to "buy" it?

And of course this quote

an MSG spokesman did say that the company ”is continuing to have productive discussions with several prospective ownership groups and remains committed to finding the right steward for the team’s long-term success in New York.”

is empty of any real content.

"Productive discussions" -- we got to write lunch off on our expense accouts

"Prospective ownership groups" -- groups that said they would invest in the WNBA if they could see any way make money

I do think it's important for our fandom not to hide the reality of the league, as any suggestions/thoughts/ideas we might have to make things better have to work inside a financial box that is severely constrained.

There is zero evidence -- aside from self-serving stories -- that teams turn a consistent profit or that a WNBA franchise has any financial value. There is significant evidence to the contrary, most damning that info from MSG. (But we all know the attendance padding is blatant almost everywhere ...)

On the flip side, among other things, it's the best women's basketball league in the world, it serves a social function as a showcase for elite female athletes who are often black and lesbian, and it is a decent TV experience.

Pretending, though, that better marketing or better officiating or whatever will turn the league into a moneymaker is pretty much a fantasy. It is what it is, after 20 years, and everyone involved should be proud.

Could it better? Sure -- but we won't make it better by deluding ourselves that making a solid profit is reasonable goal for most owners.



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PostPosted: 05/29/18 8:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
I wanted to see the Lynx actually pressure Nurse when the Liberty were using her as a point guard in the most recent game, but they never really did. I don't think we've actually seen whether her handle is good enough to be a primary ballhandler in this league yet because it hasn't been tested. Maybe she is, or maybe she isn't and she'll do just fine as a 2/3 anyway, but I'd like to see someone make her vaguely prove it.


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PostPosted: 05/30/18 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Where is Queenie? I don't think I seen a post from her since the season started. I miss her eloquence concerning everything related to New York basketball. I know she has not finished expressing her feelings concerning James Dolan. Wink



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 5:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ok have a Lot of Thoughts here. Some of that fox sports article I buy...some I sell.

Clay Brought up self serving prospective in articles that purported profit. This is true. But I would bring up self serving prospective in this article as well. It's clear Dolan wants nothing more to do with this team at MSG...period. I'm sure there were people who would have bought in the off season (Going off the Bidder claims IF a lease could be had) It's clear that's not possible in that article. One thing not noted is the political bent of the players and the league. If you google "Trump Inaugration" and "Rockettes" you will see where Dolan may not want to be associated with a team that demands, promotes and expects such a left leaning fanbase, player protests and league promotion strategy. Especially since at MSG I agree the overhead is such making a profit is difficult

There's a reason aside from St. Johns, which is funded by Booster Donations and MSG sells more to Visiting fans, there are no other long term lease based teams at MSG, the other teams are MSGco Owned, I believe the last non MSG owned leased sports team were the CityHawks AFL club 20 years ago...it was a disaster. and entities who used to book their long gigs at MSG Like WWE who used to be officed in the old MSG and treat MSG as their home arena (Both Vince Sr and Jr, Bruno Sammartino and Hulk Hogan used to have plaques on the walk of fame at MSG) feel priced out to Barclays only running less costly smaller shows at MSG and saving the big self production overhead for a cheaper venue like Barclays or Nassau to serve the metro.

Even at 5k Paid I dont see how a team can be more economically healthy with a max of less than half that...and thats assuming they all paid full price and all came to the arena bought food and maybe merch...not happening didnt happen Tuesday...still can't buy the math problem except for yes the total outlay is less.

That said...I will give creedence to MOST not all the financial pain disclosed in the article...tho perhaps not in the order they gave it OR that some fans are discussing the impact on the league or other clubs. Some people are making leaps that I think while mathmatically true, may not be economically true

Total accrued debt: $100 Million...BUY...but with a large asterisk.

This claim is one I do believe is true if you add it up over 22 years.

But there's a Big BUT and I cannot lie.

I believe at least half if not a majority of that $100 Million comes from the 3 year disaster at Pru Center. I have been told that the team was still paying off debt to Pru Center as late as mid season last year by an MSG official I trust and thats why It was not an option for potential conflicts in the playoffs.

I can tell you this. During the Pru era things were way more Washington Mystics like: a crowd of 7 would have 2 in the seats. If you told me only the 200 or so STH present bought a ticket...I wouldnt bat an eyelash at that one. Even at half the overhead at minimum of MSG (Something I was also told as the team was returning to the Pru) you'd be racking up some big debt pretty quickly at those numbers, and unlike being in a building you own, those are not just abacus beads, there were real people with real hands streched out to collect.

I agree I too saw Lib officials handing out tickets to whoever would come within a few feet of the building. Most reentered with most of their stack intact after tip.

Which is to say to simply divide by 20 and say a new owner is looking to lose 4.5M a year off the bat...may be a bit simplistic and a reach. And would deny the fact that indeed there has been growth over the last 4 seasons at MSG...to the point that I would say it would insult the hard work folks like Keia Clarke and Kristen Bernert did to win back fans after pru center.


Which brings us to:

Actual Paid Attendance is HALF of what is announced, most seats are given away: Mostly Sell.

This seems to be an attempt to explain the obvious math problem between MSG and WCC. How can 9k be less economically attractive than 2.3k?

The issue here to me is distribution vs actual attendance.

Could you say most GAs are given away...I'd say that's a possibility. That takes off 2k so we're at 8 of a total possible of 10 and change.

But to get that to 5. Maybe on a midweek...I can see it.

But when they announced 9...It felt like 9...10 felt like 10...there was 1 problem area in section 121 that seemed to be a block gobbled up by scalpers and no one ever used suites...but that's internal.

Perhaps I was too rosy on Friday attendance, that featured younger more HS like crowds, but Sundays seemed to sell...Indeed Last year's schedule was basically Friday Sunday every week. This seemed t be a good model...I could see this working. I cant see this being paid attendances below half.

Not in 16 and 17

14 when the team was bad...yes

15 when STH almost revolted because GAs were running thru the aisles stealing seats...likely

But it seems that MSGco is trying to deny growth to make things look more dire...something I would do as well if I was trying to underline the need to sell and fold if not sold...If I was Keia Clarke I'd be a bit insulted at that.

But this is done all the time to hide revenue.

Which brings us to something I saw that no one brought up

Deliberate Overspend: I dont think any other club spent more on sideshows than MSGco. Rob Base where most would pay for a traveling circus act...2 bands at pride when 1 would do.

Some were needed...Will never deny entering a float at NY Pride Parade...that was needed...for the players more than the fans

Community events put butts in seats

But there were things I saw that I thought were...gee now your crying poverty...maybe we dont need Rob Base and Crystal Waters at halftime stupid!

Were there problems...yes...and as I said that 100m total tab I think is accurate...HOW it got there Is what I question with very frank and fair evidence...not wishful thinking.

I didnt have a problem with Dolan selling 50% to isiah except that it was to Isiah and that was an issue that dogs the team to this day as the league stood its ground and denied it and came up with the withdrawl that we saw.

I am also pro smaller arena...any fantasy I have of a profitable team comes in a 7-10k arena...but not a 2.3k arena. Be it a gut renovated Carnesecca or a new construction or even a purchased and revamped theatre or gym.

MLS had this eary on and one of the keys to its success is the SSS iniative (Soccer specific stadiums) a movement like this WOULD help the W...and WOULD help a team like the libs which does face high overhead

As for the 2nd half of the article.

I think Mr Steiner IFF: If and ONLY IF, he has an arena plan...would be a good owner...I think he could have a decent idea how to make more revenue even if it would make me cringe (Let's see a fanbase with a lot of die hards who pine for merch is bought by a high end high priced merch dealer...do you see who wears the pants in that relationship LOL) I think that is at least a good show but it is plain as day now

Have a lease elsewhere before you call dolan...even if that's struck thru the league.



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 7:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you're losing $4M per year with your payroll capped under $1M then you have a management problem.



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
If you're losing $4M per year with your payroll capped under $1M then you have a management problem.

I do wonder if part of the problem getting a sale completed was prospective owners saying "You know these 28 people you've got listed as working in the Liberty Front Office? Yeah, we're not taking them with us. You keep 'em, you pay 'em." And then suddenly MSG became less keen on the deal.

As for the lost $100m figure, who the hell knows. Like any of these numbers that get thrown out, they're always massaged in one direction or another.



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 9:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
If you're losing $4M per year with your payroll capped under $1M then you have a management problem.

I do wonder if part of the problem getting a sale completed was prospective owners saying "You know these 28 people you've got listed as working in the Liberty Front Office? Yeah, we're not taking them with us. You keep 'em, you pay 'em." And then suddenly MSG became less keen on the deal.

As for the lost $100m figure, who the hell knows. Like any of these numbers that get thrown out, they're always massaged in one direction or another.


Excellent point. The whole financial aspect is a black box, manipulated by accountants who can make the numbers sing any song they want.

All we can see is the result, which is that "prospective WNBA owners" and "yeti sightings" remain equally elusive -- which leads me to believe that the real numbers are more negative than positive.



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 9:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:

Actual Paid Attendance is HALF of what is announced, most seats are given away: Mostly Sell.

I agree. When I've attended, there were actual people at Liberty games -- we're not talking about grossly fictitious numbers. Maybe they're embellished, but they're not way off like some arenas. I don't know how many seats are in the lower bowl, and to be honest a lot of fans showed up late. However, at peak attendance (usually some time in the 2nd Qtr) the lower bowl was usually 75%-80% filled. Let's take a low number and say that it's only 7500 people. That means you have to comp over 2500 to get to the supposed paid number of under 5,000 admissions. How do you physically give away that many tickets for 17 games per year? Who's giving them away? What are the channels? I'm always on the lookout for freebies and discounts for events around town. I didn't see offers all over the place for free Liberty tickets. So, somehow this is happening in secret? I encountered one promotion in 2015 where a radio station gave away Liberty tickets. They made everyone who attended through the promotion take a picture together. There were maybe 30 of us -- 40 at most. That's a long way from 2,500.

Now, I'm sure people will suggest blocks of tickets were given to schools and youth groups. OK, if we're talking about a third or more of the audience being comped, wouldn't we see all these kids very conspicuously? Even if they're not little kids but instead teenagers, I haven't seen any games where a third of the audience was teenagers. And this is using my more conservative numbers. If you're using the MSG numbers of 9889 attendance versus less than 5000 paid, then you'd have to give away roughly 5000 tickets. That's more than 50% of the attendance. Again, how are you doing this for 17 games per year -- and secretly?


Happycappie25 wrote:

MLS had this eary on and one of the keys to its success is the SSS iniative (Soccer specific stadiums) a movement like this WOULD help the W...and WOULD help a team like the libs which does face high overhead

I've read the same thing. People say that the key to turning around the MLS was building their own stadiums. No one has actually explained why that helped, but that's always given as a main reason. Maybe it's because you become a landlord instead of a tenant? More appropriate scaling in terms of revenue vs cost? Better sightlines and overall experience for the fans? Probably all of the above.


pilight wrote:
If you're losing $4M per year with your payroll capped under $1M then you have a management problem.

As someone who has spent much of his working life doing budgeting and planning, I totally agree.



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:


But there's a Big BUT and I cannot lie.



+1 for Sir Mix a Lot Wink



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 12:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
If you're losing $4M per year with your payroll capped under $1M then you have a management problem.

I do wonder if part of the problem getting a sale completed was prospective owners saying "You know these 28 people you've got listed as working in the Liberty Front Office? Yeah, we're not taking them with us. You keep 'em, you pay 'em." And then suddenly MSG became less keen on the deal.

As for the lost $100m figure, who the hell knows. Like any of these numbers that get thrown out, they're always massaged in one direction or another.


Excellent point. The whole financial aspect is a black box, manipulated by accountants who can make the numbers sing any song they want.

All we can see is the result, which is that "prospective WNBA owners" and "yeti sightings" remain equally elusive -- which leads me to believe that the real numbers are more negative than positive.


My favorite, most eye-opening book in statistics class (back in the dark ages) was a little orange book called "how to lie with statistics" - it totally amazed me then (and still now) at how you could pick and choose and manipulate "data" to pretty much say whatever you wanted it to say. Which makes me leery of all sorts of studies, claims, whatever...



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PostPosted: 05/31/18 1:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My favorite statistics book as well. Here is link for a free download. I think it is in the public domain now - lots of free downloads out there.

http://faculty.neu.edu.cn/cc/zhangyf/papers/How-to-Lie-with-Statistics.pdf


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PostPosted: 05/31/18 6:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:

Actual Paid Attendance is HALF of what is announced, most seats are given away: Mostly Sell.

I agree. When I've attended, there were actual people at Liberty games -- we're not talking about grossly fictitious numbers..

Now, I'm sure people will suggest blocks of tickets were given to schools and youth groups. OK, if we're talking about a third or more of the audience being comped, wouldn't we see all these kids very conspicuously? Even if they're not little kids but instead teenagers, I haven't seen any games where a third of the audience was teenagers. And this is using my more conservative numbers. If you're using the MSG numbers of 9889 attendance versus less than 5000 paid, then you'd have to give away roughly 5000 tickets. That's more than 50% of the attendance. Again, how are you doing this for 17 games per year -- and secretly?


Only devils advocate is that FRIDAY games seemed to be many hs basketball teams both male and female...and of course garden of dreams night lol...so some of what you describe could have happened...but at the clip of 2500 or 5k a NIGHT? Like the article claimed...

I dump on fridays because i always went to lib staff and pushed them to build on the Friday audience...i always got odd response to that 2+2 =4 i think sadly


ppl were sitting down...ppl were in seats....that they found 2500 of these 17 times a year
...jim...cmon.



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