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Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 4:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
There are also other factors in trades that can't be seen from the outside. Some players bring more to the table than games show, and some bring less. For example, a very good player who doesn't work hard in practice will make it hard to get everyone to work hard, so maybe a coach is more willing to trade her.

Or a player and coach just don't get along, or a player and the star work well together.

Lots of variables ...


Yes. Exactly right. And many or all the same issues apply to signing or not signing free agents and to drafting or not drafting players.

It's the same issue for me as when fans issue definitive pronouncements about what a player "is like" personally based on perceptions from afar or very limited interactions with the player.


So true ...

Sportswriters also get a very crafted version of a person, especially older, intelligent players. The interactions are brief and structured.

Even a long-form piece based on a couple interviews doesn't necessarily tell the writer or reader that much. It's not that hard to put on a show for a couple hours.

I would maintain, though, that a great way to really know what a player (or anyone) is like is to play competitive pickup basketball with them a few times. It's pretty hard to hide in that situation.

To sum up: There's a physical side to every team/group, and there's a psychological side, and both are important to maximize the chances of success.


I've done a lot of published interviews, with both people who were celebrities and people who weren't. An interview can be very revealing. And sometimes even a politician, actor, or athlete accustomed to being in the public eye will go off their polished script and show their true colors. But sometimes they'll just offer a glossy image far from the truth.

As for playing basketball or any competitive sport with someone... yes, that person can't just hide behind their image. There are surely things you'll learn about that individual. But seeing how someone interacts while playing a competitive sport may mean absolutely nothing in terms of how they handle other types of dealings with people.

Suppose, for example, that you're in a competitive pickup game with a young male basketball player who's in the closet and is terrified that people will find out. That terror can seriously impact his relationships with teammates and coaches in a negative way. Will you be able to figure that out in the pickup games? I don't think so.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding Stokes and potential trade value, just a few thoughts. First off, trading her would still have a measurably adverse impact on the Liberty defensively. If you trade her you better get an awfully good offensive player in return to make up for it, as the Liberty are obviously built from a defensive framework. That's not to say Stokes has gigantic trade value. I'm not saying that at all. But are any of you really comfortable with a C combo of Vaughn and Zahui along with a potential draft choice? I'm not. Nor would I be comfortable with Swords as a replacement who's expected to fill a bigger role than she is capable of. Yes, she's a nice role player. But did we forget how atrocious the Liberty were defensively after the 2016 Olympic break without Stokes and Wright? In the right role, Swords would be an ok role player for the Libs, but let's not make her into something she isn't.

Secondly, in regard to potential trade value, it's not hard to remember that Swords and Montgomery were each traded for mid-to-late first round picks. I was surprised both times. While this is regarded as a better draft, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if somebody saw enough upside in Stokes to make a move for her either.

This is not an endorsement for trading Stokes, nor is it an overly optimistic portrayal of her trade value. It's just to say that even after a somewhat disappointing season, she's still not someone the Liberty can simply replace. And if you replace her with a post in this year's draft as a one-on-one type of deal, that might give you a more well-rounded player, but you're otherwise left with some of the same needs you started with. Without the guarantee that on your defense-first team you'll have the same quality of defense you had before.

To me, the player you can more easily afford to trade...and who'll have value to at least a handful of teams...is Rodgers. I think we saw her struggle this year primarily because the Liberty didn't have guards who could break down defenses efficiently and help Sugar get open shots. I think that her struggles then snowballed as she was forced to create more of her own offense than as a team you'd really want. Yes, SG is a loaded position around the league. But I think given her speed, open shooting ability and lights-out defense (most of the time) you'll be able to find a trade partner somewhere. The Piph-Rodgers combo needs to be broken up. It probably needed to be broken up after 2016 (which is not something I am saying in hindsight) when Sugar had more value. But she still has attributes...and the work ethic...that teams will want. And she doesn't have a ton of mileage (limited starts and overseas play) on a 27-year-old body. She may still have some upside to improve some things that the average 27-year-old would not. I would like to keep her in an ideal world because I like her from a personal standpoint and we'd miss her speed and defense. But keeping her on a team with so many two-guards honestly makes no sense at all. Especially when as a team we have two very clear needs. Fill them both in the offseason and you have a chance to be better in 2018.

Finally, watching the game 1s (missed the game 2s) it's an easy reminder to see how important as a team it is to get easy baskets.. Minny and LA do that better than anyone. We will never know how much losing Boyd hurt the Libs' ability to do that this year. But what we do know is in Sunday's one-and-done, once Z got hurt, there was nobody to break down DC's defense one-on-one. It shows how vulnerable as a team you are when less-than-major ailments (Charles, Zellous) have such a negative impact on your team's offense in an elimination game. That's NOT an excuse. The fact is that if Charles had back spasm flare-ups, that's clearly a by-product of how much she carried our team in the post over the second half. If Z was slowed to a crawl after taking that first-half spill, it's similarly noteworthy that no other perimeter players were able to break down the DC defense at all in the second half. This is where getting bigger on the wing and longer in the post might have ancillary benefits. You wouldn't have to lean as heavily on Charles and you might have an alternative to a hobbled Zellous having to deal with a 7-inch height advantage on both ends. I stress that's not an excuse. But it points to the same thing as last year in the sense that we do not have the individual talent to overcome cracks in our depth. We know (assuming that some random star player doesn't demand a trade to NY) adding a star player isn't going to happen with our draft position and what we have available to trade. So the next best thing we can do is add versatility and matchup flexibility where we can and hope that Boyd's return gives us an infusion of speed and creativity in addition to that. Her long-term health being a prerequisite in that equation.

At the end of the day I think you gotta give Bill credit. Without Boyd and given Stokes and Zahui's lack of readiness to start the season, was this really a 22-win team in terms of talent? Vaughn and Hartley were DC backups and relatively fringe players for them. Z was a Liberty backup last year...though I'd give her credit for being a solid starter. Piph tore her ACL last year and didn't really get back to being herself until the last two weeks of the season. So you're looking a lineup of Tina, 3 backups from last year, and a player coming off of a torn ACL. Add to that a lack of stability at the most important position on the floor until 2/3 of the way through the season.

Given all that, with one more win over LA along with wins over Chicago and SAS in the games we lost to those two teams and we would have been a 2 seed. Stabilize the PG position and create better physical matchups and I'd think you're looking good next year. While we have players moving toward the end of their prime, Minnesota is even more in that area and LA is pretty close to it too. So...with the right moves....



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not against trading Stokes, but I believe NYL_WNBA_FAN is right that going with Vaughn and Zahui B--or Swords, Vaughn, and Zahui B--would be a disaster. Stokes can only be traded if some new center is added who's strong defensively. And that player won't be easy to find. Consequently, I suspect New York will have to keep Stokes and hope that she shows the improvement next season that I hoped she'd show this season.

I feel that Liberty fans are way too optimistic about Boyd. I certainly hope I'm proven wrong. I'm not focusing on her health. I hope she is absolutely fine by training camp. But I view Boyd as a player with some dramatic talents and some significant weaknesses who's been very inconsistent. Can she put it all together in 2018? Maybe. But no one should count on that.

I am a great admirer of Bill Laimbeer. And I feel New York's roster had and has many weaknesses, more than one might expect of a 22-12 team. Still, the fact is that for three consecutive seasons the Liberty have done very well in the regular season and have seriously flopped in the playoffs. That's on the players, but that's also on the coaches. One season ending like that can always be explained away in various ways. But THREE seasons ending as they have.... To me, that's quite serious.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.



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UK1996



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UK1996 wrote:
One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.


just not as our starting PG. Rodgers gets traded and Hartley is then the back-up SG and third option for PG.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UK1996 wrote:
One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.


It's just that she doesn't have the vision to play PG at the level it should be played. The number of times she missed open players on the wing in transition was staggering.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.


My point just is the Liberty are a team that's much better equipped to play a best of 5 than they are to play one game. That's why being close to a 2 seed with a non-PG starting in that position is important. If they have a full complement of players, they can do what Bill wanted to do when the season started, which is wear opponents down with depth. The 10-game winning streak wasn't borne so much out of outstanding Liberty talent. It was borne from a team doing what was done to them earlier in the season, taking advantage of a favorable schedule. In the process, they wore teams down physically by punishing them in the paint. That works when attrition is a factor. In a one-game scenario that doesn't work so well. Especially when the player you're using to punish the opponents is not able to do it because she's hurting. The point about the 2 seed is not so much about how good NY is. It's more about getting to the best-of-5 scenario that NY is clearly better built for. Since it wasn't that far away, can we do things in the offseason to get there?

There's been much talk of needing a second star. While that would be great, it isn't happening unless NY gets really lucky. DC beat us with only one star. I don't think my view right now is all that rosy, being that I am acknowledging their weaknesses. They're the third best team in the league. They have two very discernible weaknesses, which I'm clearly saying need to be addressed. Is it an earth-shattering statement to say that addressing your weaknesses is the right way to improve? It strikes me to be the only way to do it. Minnesota is built around three players aged 30+. LA's most versatile player is 31 years old and the DPOY is 35. Sooner or later the window is going to be there. For NY, they need to make it sooner while their top players are still in their prime.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.


My point just is the Liberty are a team that's much better equipped to play a best of 5 than they are to play one game. That's why being close to a 2 seed with a non-PG starting in that position is important. If they have a full complement of players, they can do what Bill wanted to do when the season started, which is wear opponents down with depth. The 10-game winning streak wasn't borne so much out of outstanding Liberty talent. It was borne from a team doing what was done to them earlier in the season, taking advantage of a favorable schedule. In the process, they wore teams down physically by punishing them in the paint. That works when attrition is a factor. In a one-game scenario that doesn't work so well. Especially when the player you're using to punish the opponents is not able to do it because she's hurting. The point about the 2 seed is not so much about how good NY is. It's more about getting to the best-of-5 scenario that NY is clearly better built for. Since it wasn't that far away, can we do things in the offseason to get there?

There's been much talk of needing a second star. While that would be great, it isn't happening unless NY gets really lucky. DC beat us with only one star. I don't think my view right now is all that rosy, being that I am acknowledging their weaknesses. They're the third best team in the league. They have two very discernible weaknesses, which I'm clearly saying need to be addressed. Is it an earth-shattering statement to say that addressing your weaknesses is the right way to improve? It strikes me to be the only way to do it. Minnesota is built around three players aged 30+. LA's most versatile player is 31 years old and the DPOY is 35. Sooner or later the window is going to be there. For NY, they need to make it sooner while their top players are still in their prime.


We will just have to disagree. For me, your statement that "they're the third best team in the league" is way off. A team that over three consecutive seasons is 3-5 in the playoffs and 2-4 in playoff games at home isn't the third best team in the league. Not even close. At best, it's a team that is maybe, maybe, the third best team in the league in the regular season but has a huge problem coming through in the playoffs.

And it's not just a matter of particular problems in do-or-die games. Two seasons ago, the Liberty had the best record in the league in the regular season, played a very shaky series against a Washington team that wasn't as good, barely beat them, then played a very shaky series against an Indiana team that wasn't as good, and was eliminated.

If you're the third best team in the league, you find a way to win home playoff games against lesser teams. Including do-or-die games. You find a way to win them. Period.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 11:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
DC beat us with only one star.


The player that scored 32 pts?



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)


Because she's a three-point shooter who can create her own shot from anywhere on the floor, something the Libs don't have. It makes them vulnerable in one and dones and it would certainly help to get a player who can do it. After that the Libs' most creative player in a one-on-one situation had a torn Achilles. 14 seeds beat 3 seeds in the NCAA tournament sometimes. 12s beat 5s with regularity. Had Minnesota or LA been subject to this, on a given day they could be vulnerable too. It's a one-game sample. And going back to 2015 the player who really could have gotten provided the one-on-one spark they needed missed two of the 3 games.

Losing one game doesn't mean that they're any less "good". It just means you need players who can get you better through these games. The fact that it's happened 3 times doesn't change that for me. In 2015 they weren't too talented. Last year the whole team was hurt. This year stings because we had more talent. But all it means is we have to get more.

And I'm lost on one thing. What's your higher point? That we have no chance to improve? Should we give up? I'm not ignoring what happened but this thread is about 2018. Do you think we can't have improvement? Or that no matter what improvements, it won't matter?



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
DC beat us with only one star.


The player that scored 32 pts?


Well no, lol. I'm just making the point that Piph had a very similar season to Toliver. But Toliver def is a better player to have in a one-and-done probably.



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RP



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
#BringBackSwords


Bring back Swords and send Stokes to the Mystics. It's a plan!


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 2:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)


Because she's a three-point shooter who can create her own shot from anywhere on the floor, something the Libs don't have. It makes them vulnerable in one and dones and it would certainly help to get a player who can do it. After that the Libs' most creative player in a one-on-one situation had a torn Achilles. 14 seeds beat 3 seeds in the NCAA tournament sometimes. 12s beat 5s with regularity. Had Minnesota or LA been subject to this, on a given day they could be vulnerable too. It's a one-game sample. And going back to 2015 the player who really could have gotten provided the one-on-one spark they needed missed two of the 3 games.

Losing one game doesn't mean that they're any less "good". It just means you need players who can get you better through these games. The fact that it's happened 3 times doesn't change that for me. In 2015 they weren't too talented. Last year the whole team was hurt. This year stings because we had more talent. But all it means is we have to get more.

And I'm lost on one thing. What's your higher point? That we have no chance to improve? Should we give up? I'm not ignoring what happened but this thread is about 2018. Do you think we can't have improvement? Or that no matter what improvements, it won't matter?


Since you apparently need me to be as explicit as possible, here goes:

1. The team has a chance to improve in 2018.
2. No one should give up.
3. The Liberty CAN have improvement.
4. If there are improvements, it will matter.
5. Your view of our roster, in my opinion, continues to be too rosy.
6. Your rationalizations for the team's disappointing playoff performances in 2015, 2016, and 2017 seem to me completely unconvincing.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll also be as explicit as possible.

-My view of the past 3 seasons is now entirely tied to 2018. I have no interest in 2015-17 other than using them as benchmarks for the improvement we need in the future. Anything I've posted has been entirely geared toward that. Why you keep talking about disappointing losses the last three years confuses me along those lines. I'm not trying to rationalize losses. I'm using those losses to rationalize why the future might be better...i.e...acknowledging our weaknesses. We're talking about two different things.
-The Liberty are tied with LA for the second-best overall record in the WNBA the last three seasons.
-You said yourself you thought the Liberty were better than D.C. and you've acknowledged the past two seasons the Libs outperformed their talent. Now all of a sudden it's shocking they lost playoff games in the last two seasons and saying they're the third best team in the league is earth-shattering due to one bad game?
-I'm a math person. I do sample sizes. I'll take the one we've established over 102 regular season games rather than the playoff sample size, while acknowledging we need to upgrade certain areas to be more playoff ready.
-You haven't refuted anything I've said. All you've said is my view is too rosy and my remarks are unconvincing. I watch the league play. The Liberty are good relative to all but a few teams. The next step is to try to be better.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'll also be as explicit as possible.

-My view of the past 3 seasons is now entirely tied to 2018. I have no interest in 2015-17 other than using them as benchmarks for the improvement we need in the future. Anything I've posted has been entirely geared toward that. Why you keep talking about disappointing losses the last three years confuses me along those lines. I'm not trying to rationalize losses. I'm using those losses to rationalize why the future might be better...i.e...acknowledging our weaknesses. We're talking about two different things.
-The Liberty are tied with LA for the second-best overall record in the WNBA the last three seasons.
-You said yourself you thought the Liberty were better than D.C. and you've acknowledged the past two seasons the Libs outperformed their talent. Now all of a sudden it's shocking they lost playoff games in the last two seasons and saying they're the third best team in the league is earth-shattering due to one bad game?
-I'm a math person. I do sample sizes. I'll take the one we've established over 102 regular season games rather than the playoff sample size, while acknowledging we need to upgrade certain areas to be more playoff ready.
-You haven't refuted anything I've said. All you've said is my view is too rosy and my remarks are unconvincing. I watch the league play. The Liberty are good relative to all but a few teams. The next step is to try to be better.


I can't "refute" your statement that we have the third-best team in the WNBA, just as you can't prove it. The wins and losses in the regular seasons are a fact, just like the wins and losses in the playoffs. Your opinion is that we have the third best team in the league. Fine. I wouldn't want to say that tomorrow to fans of the Mystics. They'd laugh and I would, too, if I were in their position.

I thought New York was a better team than Washington. That's absolutely true. I'm now saying that I was wrong. Not the first of my misjudgments and surely not the last.

Finally, for me it is indeed "shocking" that the Liberty have failed so miserably in the playoffs three years in a row. Is it "earth-shattering" to assert, as you have, that New York is the third-best team in the league? No, it's definitely not earth-shattering. But I, one lone person, think you're wrong.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fair enough. For me now the question is can we improve enough to be top 2 in 2018? I'd much rather try our luck, especially with an inside-oriented team, in a best-of-5. One thing we probably agree on is that if we have a window of opportunity to do that, it probably isn't going to be for that much longer given the age and wear and tear on our top players.

One thing that Bill did in Detroit was acquire Katie Smith when the Shock needed one more player to get over the hump. Right now, I don't see that type of player being available on a rebuilding team for the price that was paid to get her. One of the complications in today's WNBA to trading for these types of pieces is that none of the bottom-half teams have a difference-making vet that might be available for a less-than-exorbitant price.

And the top teams are the ones with those kinds of players (Beard, Augustus). They're not going anywhere.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Fair enough. For me now the question is can we improve enough to be top 2 in 2018? I'd much rather try our luck, especially with an inside-oriented team, in a best-of-5. One thing we probably agree on is that if we have a window of opportunity to do that, it probably isn't going to be for that much longer given the age and wear and tear on our top players.

One thing that Bill did in Detroit was acquire Katie Smith when the Shock needed one more player to get over the hump. Right now, I don't see that type of player being available on a rebuilding team for the price that was paid to get her. One of the complications in today's WNBA to trading for these types of pieces is that none of the bottom-half teams have a difference-making vet that might be available for a less-than-exorbitant price.

And the top teams are the ones with those kinds of players (Beard, Augustus). They're not going anywhere.


I certainly agree with you about the team's window of opportunity. As you've rightly said, it doesn't look easy to trade for that "one more player to get us over the hump." Without any clear answers in sight, I'm going to hope for a dream that only happens once in a while: that some significant player forces a trade. As Tina Charles did, as Elena Delle Donne did more recently.

Tina Charles seems to me, based on just glimpses of her in press conferences and video interviews, to be a persuasive person. So I'm going to hope that she can convincingly say to the right player: "Come and join me in New York!"



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 4:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 5:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 5:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm delighted that some people like my idea. Now all that needs to happen is that Tina picks the right star and that star says "yes."

Oh, yeh, there's that little matter of forcing the trade. But Tina can give really helpful advice on how to do that. And they can always consult Elena Delle Donne if more recent advice seems valuable. Smile



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 6:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


You must not have listened to Fowles' MVP speech.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


That's backwards. The Liberty need to win a title and THEN Fowles will request a trade there Laughing


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


I don't see Angel wanting to play for Laimbeer or vice versa. Plus the teams are a poor fit trading-wise. Bonner is exactly what the Libs need and she might just be attainable. She has length, she defends, she's a SF and she has a good floor game.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


That's backwards. The Liberty need to win a title and THEN Fowles will request a trade there Laughing


I stand corrected. Laughing


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


I don't see Angel wanting to play for Laimbeer or vice versa. Plus the teams are a poor fit trading-wise. Bonner is exactly what the Libs need and she might just be attainable. She has length, she defends, she's a SF and she has a good floor game.

I remember suggesting Bonner could fill that hole at the 3 years ago, and it hasn't really changed. Except she's since gotten older and had twins.

Didn't one of Bill's teams back in the day have two or three couples on it? Maybe you could get Bonner for, say, Rodgers, and Dupree for Stokes, and everyone lives happily ever after Smile.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 8:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bonner shouldn't be a topic for the Liberty because it's not going to happen.
But has anybody been keeping track of Bonner's progress after giving birth? A 130 lb woman going full term with twins takes a lot bigger toll than say a 170 lb woman going half term with twins. Is she rebounding quickly or is that not a factor in any of this brainstorming? Seems like there are cheaper options that are less risky out there. Christmas, Currie... Nared as a draft pick.... maybe bring Alex Montgomery back, bring Carson back.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My problem with trading Rodgers (besides her being one of my favorite players on the Liberty) is market value.

I did consider Rodgers for Bonner with a second move for Dupree mostly for camp value, but in the short term it could work considering the window of opportunity for NY as is, is short term.

None of this is meant to insult Rodgers (she has the greatest value among our guards IMO) but realistic trade would be like

Rodgers for Boyette (actually I doubt Atl does that with Hayes and Sykes all ready there). Now if Atl regrets losing there draft pick, is in love with Sykes and see potential in Boyette maybe Rodgers and #10 for Hayes could happen. Syjes becomes the Starter, Rodgers does her 6 woman thing in Atl and the Dream can get a first rounder to develop, wishful thinking I know, but I would do that trade.

Rodgers and #10 for Sims (Maybe if LA wants to go twelve deep and needs two rookie contracts to pull that off, but Sims is coming into her own in LA so who knows).

Rodgers for Alexander and #13, (maybe but SA still has Plum and McBride eating up a lot of those SG minutes if Jefferson returns).

If everyone comes back healthy Dallas, Indy, Chicago, Was, Conn are all very heavy in the 2 spot.

Rodgers for Currie? Rodgers for the rights to Bone (do we really need another Braxton)?


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.

Nah man, they probably don't want Cappie back.

Wink



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.


You must be talking about fashionista Powers. I'm not sure why Dallas would give her up. She's instant energy. Just consider Christmas a present.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.


You must be talking about fashionista Powers. I'm not sure why Dallas would give her up. She's instant energy. Just consider Christmas a present.


Right team but someone more fashionable with management ties in NYC.

If Christmas comes as an UFA I'd be cool with that. If R, Montgomery decides to move to NY as an UFA I'd be cool with that as well. If were going for right now adding Montgomery, Christmas and Swords to replace Zahui B, B and L Allen could work, but I doubt we could afford it.

You're the Zahui B fan, how about Zahui B and #22 for #12?


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.

Nah man, they probably don't want Cappie back.

Wink


That was immediately where my brain went, and I was like "NOOOOOOOO"



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:

Right team but someone more fashionable with management ties in NYC.


More fashionable than Powers? Are you trying to get Powers to throw down with you, because she'll do it.

J-Spoon wrote:
If Christmas comes as an UFA I'd be cool with that.


For Dallas, I'd recommend a core and trade of Christmas... unless they have somebody else they need to core.

J-Spoon wrote:
If RMontgomery decides to move to NY as an UFA I'd be cool with that as well.


She already turned you down prior to the 2016 season. I don't Laimbeer is a glutton for rejection.

J-Spoon wrote:
If were going for right now adding Montgomery, Christmas and Swords to replace Zahui B, B & L Allen could work, but I doubt we could afford it.


Does a team that ended the season on a ten game win streak really need wholesale changes? I can almost guarantee all those players will be better next year.

J-Spoon wrote:
You're the Zahui B fan, how about Zahui B and #22 for #12?


It's not all that unfair a deal, but ask me before the draft. Kinda like to see what might be available at #12. Right now I'm kinda feeling Nurse or Vadeeva.

I think Zahui would be a great fit for SEA. She's friends with Loyd, and I think she'd get enough minutes to get into a rhythm since SEA doesn't really have a player like her. How about #17 for Zahui, and you keep #22?



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 11:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Shades wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
There is one player out there I think could be a viable force her way to NY kind of player (no matter how much she claims to love her team). Her management just needs to convince her she needs to be in the biggest market/fashion Capitol of America. TBH she isn't one of my favorites but she would be a good fit and a game changer for NY.


You must be talking about fashionista Powers. I'm not sure why Dallas would give her up. She's instant energy. Just consider Christmas a present.


Right team but someone more fashionable with management ties in NYC.

If Christmas comes as an UFA I'd be cool with that. If R, Montgomery decides to move to NY as an UFA I'd be cool with that as well. If were going for right now adding Montgomery, Christmas and Swords to replace Zahui B, B and L Allen could work, but I doubt we could afford it.

You're the Zahui B fan, how about Zahui B and #22 for #12?



Nope. Miss Diggins-Smith coming here that aint happenin lol you gonna have to trade STAR for STAR. and the only star we got is Miss Tina Charles.

now if she forces a trade that's different story, but i believe she really does love her team and Dallas


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Delete.


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PostPosted: 09/17/17 9:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Like so many teams in so many sports on the cusp of contending for a championship, the Liberty need some luck.

The Warriors were never as good as the Libs are, but were never bad enough to get a high pick. Then they tanked, picked Curry (who took two years to find himself) and got very, very lucky with Draymond Green.

Of course, the same could be said for Washington and Connecticut -- have that second rounder develop into an all-star to join the existing starters and all of a sudden you're a true contender.

Or Susie McConnell-Serio says "It's me or Katie Smith" and you get an Olympian for Chandi Jones.

Or a star gets hurt and you're back in the lottery.

The role of luck in sports, especially injury luck, cannot be underrated.



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 10:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Klay Thompson 11th overall didn't hurt either. It's not commonplace to not have a top 5 draftee spearhead championship teams in the NBA. Durant was but the GSW won a title without him too.

The Libs haven't had the greatest injury luck with season-ending or just about season-ending major injuries to ball-handling guards each of the last two years. Toss in Carson in 2013 and that's 3 major injuries in 5 seasons. I can't think of a team that's had a parallel in the W. Injuries happen but it's hard to fault the team-building process for them, when you're talking freak, non-impact injuries. One of which happened in Russia.

Entering the season the plan was to use speed and depth while attaining improvement from within. With the injury to Boyd, all of those areas were adversely affected.

I'd think next season there isn't going to be the expectation of internal improvement. They'll hope for it, sure. But unlike this year I'd bet they aren't going to bank on it. As such, it would not surprise me to see significant changes with vets being added next year. Even if it means trading draft picks or young players. The availability of vets being the caveat. Can you get any? I don't see much availability but Laimbeer has pulled off the unexpected before.



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

the biggest thing was thinking Prince could be everyday PG and while Boyd getting hurt magnified that it was an idea since day 1 IMHO the way the team was built with Rodgers.

Instead we got when ones good the other's bad syndrome and when Prince did start at PG...we were flat out BAD 3-8 if I remember right.

The incredible run without Prince and Vaughn was an omen that Prince and Rodgers together just didn't work.

So well you could say it was as much failing to sign and trade Rodgers to me...I think she has value...my goal would be a 3 but moving up from 10 would suffice as well and give Z one more year to hold down the 3 and moving Hartley back to 2 playing some 1

My rough rough draft for the roster would be (secondary position) [Or TC/Pick depending on preseason performance] Will not make trade FA proposals as I don't know the market yet and this is a one or the other situation so Rodgers OR prince can go but I'd rather keep prince:

1: FA
Boyd
L. Allen
(Hartley)

2: Prince
Hartley
(Zellous)

3: Trade (Rodgers and likely pick note I'd take a rookie below Z if we use Rodgers to move up in the draft)
Zellous
[R. Allen]

4: Charles
[Raincock]

5: Stokes
Vaughn (Note order)

Ill have a wishlist when FAs come out but this is where I think the problems lie



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The Warriors were never as good as the Libs are, but were never bad enough to get a high pick. Then they tanked, picked Curry (who took two years to find himself) and got very, very lucky with Draymond Green.


How much tanking does it take to get the #7 pick? And it wasn't a fluke, there were six teams with worse records. They could just as easily wound up with Jonny Flynn.



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Klay Thompson 11th overall didn't hurt either. It's not commonplace to not have a top 5 draftee spearhead championship teams in the NBA. Durant was but the GSW won a title without him too.

The Libs haven't had the greatest injury luck with season-ending or just about season-ending major injuries to ball-handling guards each of the last two years. Toss in Carson in 2013 and that's 3 major injuries in 5 seasons. I can't think of a team that's had a parallel in the W. Injuries happen but it's hard to fault the team-building process for them, when you're talking freak, non-impact injuries. One of which happened in Russia.

Entering the season the plan was to use speed and depth while attaining improvement from within. With the injury to Boyd, all of those areas were adversely affected.

I'd think next season there isn't going to be the expectation of internal improvement. They'll hope for it, sure. But unlike this year I'd bet they aren't going to bank on it. As such, it would not surprise me to see significant changes with vets being added next year. Even if it means trading draft picks or young players. The availability of vets being the caveat. Can you get any? I don't see much availability but Laimbeer has pulled off the unexpected before.


For me, internal improvement was a crucial hope for 2017. Boyd was injured right away and we'll never know what she'd have given the team in 2017. But I'd hoped for significant internal improvement from at least two of our third year players. And we didn't get that from Stokes, Rebecca Allen, or Zahui B. That really hurt. And I'd say it contributed to Charles having to play so many minutes and wearing down.

For 2018, the most significant internal improvement could come from Lindsay Allen and Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe. Two big ifs. My hope for Allen is much higher than most fans who are posting here, but without question everyone could be right and I could be wrong. And having Boyd might prove to be a big plus... or might not. As for the rest of the current roster, I'd say they are what they are.



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 11:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The Warriors were never as good as the Libs are, but were never bad enough to get a high pick. Then they tanked, picked Curry (who took two years to find himself) and got very, very lucky with Draymond Green.


How much tanking does it take to get the #7 pick? And it wasn't a fluke, there were six teams with worse records. They could just as easily wound up with Jonny Flynn.


They had to lose a bunch of games to get in the lottery ... it was pretty blatant (and of course I'm a fan).



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The heavy tanking year from the Warriors was when they dropped to keep their pick in the year they took Harrison Barnes. The Steph year they basically just sucked.



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PostPosted: 09/20/17 10:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So Liberty fans there seem to be some unrestricted free agents out there next year that could fit in NY, who should we offer some money to?

likely based on things read in other threads
R. Montgomery, Swords, Christmas, Currie, C. Little, T. Young, Langhorne

IDK but could be list
January, Perkins, Bentley, Lavender, Clark, Latta, Pondexter, Paris, K. Thomas, Lyttle, A. Montgomery, Carson

and what about on our team
Vaughn? Zellous? Prince? I know Hartley is a RFA.


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PostPosted: 09/20/17 11:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Don't forget Wright, who when last seen was a cored UFA. There had to be some thinking behind that decision. It wasn't the obvious thing to do. You also have Schimmel who will be a Reserve Player. No big deal, but you do have to make a qualifying offer if you want to retain her rights.



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 2:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clark had 1 more year according to the salary thingie



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 2:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I never looked at that thread and now my ancient operating system is having difficulty opening it but that means we actually already have a list of free agents next year that is pretty cool.


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PostPosted: 09/21/17 11:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
So Liberty fans there seem to be some unrestricted free agents out there next year that could fit in NY, who should we offer some money to?

likely based on things read in other threads
R. Montgomery, Swords, Christmas, Currie, C. Little, T. Young, Langhorne

IDK but could be list
January, Perkins, Bentley, Lavender, Clark, Latta, Pondexter, Paris, K. Thomas, Lyttle, A. Montgomery, Carson

and what about on our team
Vaughn? Zellous? Prince? I know Hartley is a RFA.



Also Free Agents, Nneka, Kizer, Glory, Stricklen, and Shenice Johnson


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