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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 5:53 pm    ::: New York Liberty 2018 Reply Reply with quote

Sad to start this thread , But its only fair. Where do the changes begin? 2 straight exits in single eliminations in consecutive season says some things are not enough! Where do Lib Fans Start?



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Complete overhaul of our bench except for Nayo. Trade Vaughn and bring in a legit SF.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not really a NY fan, but to me it's pretty obvious
a) need a center. Vaughn and Stokes have combined for close to nothing in important games.
b) still need a SF. Zellous did a yeoman job of it this year but she's not really big enough, and is on the end side of her career.

On the plus side:
Tina is obviously Tina but she needs help. Hartley has actually started to play well enough to make me think she belongs. If Boyd can come back from injury in any kind of form, they should be ok at PG between the two of them. I like Piph and I like Sugar. Unfortunately both of them are pretty erratic. Still that SG position is fairly well covered. And Zellous can play there too if they actually had an SF.

SO actually I would re-sign Swords who I think will be a UFA. She worked really well in NY's scheme in limited minutes. Maybe try to find a trade for Stokes. Stokes for Holmes? And then hope something nice falls far enough to help in next year's draft.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

100% in favor of bringing back Swords. Draft a SF. Trade Vaughn & R. Allen for something.

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Swords/Stokes
12th: via Vaughn trade.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe GM's will think like some on this board and Gabby Williams or DD will fall that far. Doubtful of course. NY can always hope for some early declarers which will make somebody drop. More likely that Nared might be there and I've been impressed with her so that might turn out to be a good one. Is #10 too high for Ariel Atkins? She has the pretty good defensively thing going for her. A second rounder to consider might be Mikayla Cowling (Cal). I really don't see LFO going for a small guard considering the guards he already has. I guess if someone they are really hot on drops to #10, they could take her and try to move one of the existing guards, all of whom have some trade value.



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caune



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:05 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:12 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.


I'd be ok with that.

Going back to Swords & trading Vaughn. Will Swords be a UFA? If we can get her for nothing, then she needs to come back to New York. Vaughn & R. Allen to Minnesota for their #12 pick?



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adamj95



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:25 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
caune wrote:
A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.


I'd be ok with that.

Going back to Swords & trading Vaughn. Will Swords be a UFA? If we can get her for nothing, then she needs to come back to New York. Vaughn & R. Allen to Minnesota for their #12 pick?


No thank you. I don't think the Lynx would be able to make that trade anyways, salary cap wise.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea





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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea




I thought about this. But it would likely involve their pick(#10) plus a bunch of scraps(Vaughn, R. Allen? Hartley?). I don't think the Liberty have enough to trade for her.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd start with this: something is fundamentally wrong.

Over three consecutive seasons, we've seen the Liberty do extremely well in the regular season despite significant injuries. We've seen our team record some impressive victories in each regular season, including a bunch in the recent 10-game winning streak.

But this team has dramatically underperformed in the playoffs in three consecutive seasons, with home-court advantage in all four rounds against teams with weaker records. 2015: barely beat Washington, two games to one, in the opening round. Then lost two out of three to Indiana. 2016 and 2017: lost the do-or-die games to Phoenix and now Washington.

Regular season record for 2015-2017: 66 wins and 36 losses. Playoff record for those three seasons: three wins and five losses. Playoff record at home in those seasons: two wins and four losses.

I find that very distressing and disappointing. And I'm not putting it on Tina Charles. She needs more help. Today, with Delle Donne struggling and Meeseman playing terribly, Kristi Tolliver had a superb performance. That's what you need to win crucial playoff games: someone, sometimes someone unexpected, to soar. And over these three seasons the support crew for Charles just hasn't done it nearly enough.

I hate the do-or-die setup for teams that finish 3rd and 4th. But, bottom line, a good team finds ways to win playoff games, especially at home. Our team just hasn't.

I wish I had answers. I don't.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How about Stokes to Indiana for MoMo. I'm thinking if Indiana acquires Bonner, they will have an overload at G and Johnson's coming back from an injury so maybe they would be willing to part with her.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Piph and Sugar can't co-exist. Trade either or both.

Shape up or ship out, Kia. Ditto, Amanda. Ditto, Rebecca.

We need to figure out what Bria's position is.

Get your goddamn act together, Kiah. Consistency or GTFO.

We need a small forward and at minimum a backup point guard.

In the heat of the moment, the only players I wouldn't entertain offers or airplane tickets for are Tina, Shavonte, Bria, Brittany, and Nayo.

Go away, Bill. Take Katie and Herb with you. I'm indifferent to Spoon. Rosie can stay, though.

Burn this playoff system to the ground. Burn the ashes. Bury the ashes at a crossroads with a stake through them.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am going to try to keep this rant simple.

Today we witness AGAIN playoff format is BULLSHIT. I can’t take the pain anymore of this BULLSHIT single elimination and my team that work so hard during the end regular season on a 10 game wining streak to be over one BAD game.

BUT…you know what…the Liberty got nobody to blame but themselves.

I’ve said this before, root_thing/J-Spoon is with me on this, i selfishly wanted them finish at the 5th or 6th spot because I KNEW watching this team all year i just don't have the faith/belief that they can make a run in the playoffs, and they prove me RIGHT. Now we have the 10th pick in the 2018 WNBA DRAFT.

I want KIA VAUGHN out of New York so bad, I will pack her shit for her and buy the ticket first class outta here. She is HORRIBLE

SUGAR RODGERS. Fellow Libs fans, I don’t know about you guys but I’ve had enuff of her inconsistent chucking the basketball from 300 ft bricks. I’d look to trade her, one day she’s all-star and another day she’s a BUM. Overall she’s good energy spark off the bench player, she’s not a STAR. You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

Lachina made a great point that I’ve been saying since Tina Charles put on the Liberty uniform, you need guards to break down the defense and make shots, EPIPHANNY PRINCE did all she can do, she’s just not athletic enuff and slow but she redeem herself because after she came back from overseas she was a mess, but she played great down the stretch. I just wish she never had this overseas commitment because maybe would of got that chemisty earlier in the year.

KIAH STOKES. Honestly its up to Liberty management to do with her, she is what she is. If she has any value, make her avaliable via trade and see what they can get

THE BENCH. The Rebecca Allen experiment is offically over in my eyes. she had opportunity all year to get more minutes but she missed a lot of open shot she usually makes. Zahui B. GOODBYE. The only bright spot on the bench is Ms Raincock I love her athleticism and potential but she need to work on getting a 15 foot shot and freethrows, I think she can play the SF if she can get a jumper

WHAT I WANT and think we should get. I agree with Toad, we need a SF via free agency, trade, or Draft
I think we should take a shot at trying to get Kayla McBride, she is a restricted so a sign and trade would get it done, I would trade 2018 1st round pick + Sugar Rodgers or Prince

THE DRAFT. The Liberty GM Laimbeer or Thomas or whoever…who knows. Now with the 10th my dreams are crushed because I know there is no chance of getting Gabby Williams or a Kelsey Mitchell. Especially Gabby, she would fit so perfect with this team but it what it is. But back to reality,

Jordin Canada. I don’t care what people say this girl can BALL.

Jaime Nared. Long 6-2 wing player can run, can shot, play D, this is my main get to draft.

Monique Billings, a beast. As athletic as Gabby Williams and taller.

Lexie Brown. combo guard, great shooter, and play good D.

Kia Nurse. another combo guard at 6'0 i think she can play the 3 aswell, great hard nose player i like her

my sleeper will be Victoria Vivians. i know Toad is not a fan of but this girl can score, she has the perfect body size at 6-1 for the SF spot. she had bad up and down Junior Season but i am going to be watching her to see if she bounces back


ok i am done, back to the sorry ass Giants game.


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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Admiral_Needa wrote:
Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea




I thought about this. But it would likely involve their pick(#10) plus a bunch of scraps(Vaughn, R. Allen? Hartley?). I don't think the Liberty have enough to trade for her.


I got this, Randy.

You've gotta be kidding me if you think #10 & scraps is good enough to secure McCoughtry. Stokes + #10 in 2018 + first in 2019, and quite honestly I still wouldn't do it unless ATL is giving up on the McCoughtry window of opportunity.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:

I want KIA VAUGHN out of New York so bad, I will pack her shit for her and buy the ticket first class outta here. She is HORRIBLE


YES!!! #BringBackSwords

Quote:
SUGAR RODGERS. Fellow Libs fans, I don’t know about you guys but I’ve had enuff of her inconsistent chucking the basketball from 300 ft bricks. I’d look to trade her, one day she’s all-star and another day she’s a BUM. Overall she’s good energy spark off the bench player, she’s not a STAR. You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.


I didn't want to get flamed by some fans on here so I didn't mention it, but I'm clearly not the only one. I'm all for trading Sugar. Maybe Sugar, Vaughn & their #10 pick to Indiana for their lottery pick(unless it's the #1) & S. Johnson. Johnson works at covering both the 1 & 2 spots. I'm still baffled that she had her worst season(in NY) and won 6th woman.

Quote:
Lachina made a great point that I’ve been saying since Tina Charles put on the Liberty uniform, you need guards to break down the defense and make shots, EPIPHANNY PRINCE did all she can do, she’s just not athletic enuff and slow but she redeem herself because after she came back from overseas she was a mess, but she played great down the stretch. I just wish she never had this overseas commitment because maybe would of got that chemisty earlier in the year.


This is the log jam at SG. Prince, Rodgers & technically Zellous & Hartley. TRADE SUGAR. Zellous still starts at SF, but our pick gets most of the minutes there.

Quote:
KIAH STOKES. Honestly its up to Liberty management to do with her, she is what she is. If she has any value, make her avaliable via trade and see what they can get


She's worthy of being a back-up. She clearly can't be consistent enough to provide solid offense every game. Stokes stays, for now.

Quote:
THE BENCH. The Rebecca Allen experiment is offically over in my eyes. she had opportunity all year to get more minutes but she missed a lot of open shot she usually makes. Zahui B. GOODBYE. The only bright spot on the bench is Ms Raincock I love her athleticism and potential but she need to work on getting a 15 foot shot and freethrows, I think she can play the SF if she can get a jumper


Dump them all but Nayo. Zahui B was glued to the bench all season. Enough excuses already. R. Allen showed glimmers, but is she worth keeping if we can find someone slightly better?



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've said here for years that it's very, very rare to win in pro basketball with only one star. But it's even less likely when your one star is a post player. Tina Charles is great, but she can't take over a game the same way a quick, agile shooting guard or small forward can. This is why over time the NBA moved from a league dominated by centers to a league dominated by guards or tall players who can play like guards when need be.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shot-creating guards also tend to help you win down the stretch of playoff games. The Detroit Shock were an inside-out team generally. But in the fourth quarter of many of those games it was Nolan time.

We need another creative wing player with an outside shot. With SF size. Unfortunately those players are hard to get.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.


All true. And all the young players they have had since 2015 took a step back or got hurt. Had they shown more growth there would at least be more wiggle room to trade with.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to return to something that I addressed during the offseason, as did others. And that has been discussed throughout the season.

I said that for the Liberty to be a genuine championship contender we needed substantial improvement from at least two of our four returning younger players: Boyd, Stokes, Rebecca Allen, and Zahui B.

We all know the results: we got substantial improvement from NONE of the four. Boyd was lost due to injury. Stokes, apart from one great stretch, was in my view worse than last season. Allen contributed little and Zahui B. contributed next to nothing. This didn't just hurt New York in 2017; it's damaging on many levels (including potential trade value) going forward. Add in the even more discouraging fact that Rodgers was significantly worse in 2017 than in 2016.

For me, only three players on the roster gave the team more than I'd have expected. Shavonte Zellous was inspiring and pushed herself and the team to be better. I give her a huge gold star for her contributions. I had limited expectations for Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe and Lindsay Allen and they both gave the team more than I'd figured. Tina Charles had her usual terrific season. I said in the offseason that I felt she'd be an important vocal leader this year, some Liberty fans said they thought she couldn't do that, and I believe I was right.

That's about where my positive comments end: Charles, Zellous, Raincock-Ekunwe, and Lindsay Allen.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Losing Boyd hurt New York. I think she was poised to have a breakout season.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If NY doesn't want Bill anymore Dream need a coach and GM. Holmes for NY FRP. I might do Stokes for Holmes is expansion does not happen.

I think NY problem is that they play really hard all season and when other teams turn it up a notch NY doesn't have another notch to turn up. They play at playoff level all year.


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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still like our team and the players on our team.

But I agree with the overall sentiment that we need more stars.

We need a second best player. We've got a best player and some very talented role players but no legit 2nd option. We thought Prince or Rodgers might be that player, but they haven't been.

I would trade one of Prince or Rodgers, personally I prefer Suguar I think she's a better fit as a 3rd option starting at the 2 for the Liberty, but can see why people are frustrated with her. I also think Rodgers is a better starter than bench player think about last season and when Prince was ot. Things worked better IMO. But neither Rodgers or Prince are at 2nd star level IMO.

So how do we get that 2nd star. Most likely through trades. But without great talent we're going to have to combine assets and look to fill needs for other teams as well as take advantage of other teams log jams.

My 1st suggestion would be Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 and hope that Deshields, Mitchell or G. Williams falls there. I like G. Williams but for what I think the Liberty need as a second option prefer the more defined scoring role at the next level that Mitchell or Deshields would have. Deshields would be my first choice head case or not. Deshields could be a bust, but I still think her combination of size, athleticism, skill and ego will lead to her being a star. Maybe not a perennial all-star but better than anyone the Liberty has ATM not named Charles.

With McCoughtry coming back does Atl love Sykes enough to give us Hayes for Stokes and the #10 pick. Hayes would fit well with Charles, is big enough to play SF sometime, fits Liberty grit, and is better IMO than Prince or Rodgers. I would also offer Prince and #10 for Hayes and #16, and would still do it if Atl wouldn't include #16 but might as well give it a shot.

The above trades are the only one I think are based in some reality.

I would offer the Sun all of our Huskies (Hartley and Stokes) and the #10 pick for a possibly healthy C. Ogwumike but I don't see the sun making that move. High risk but again at this point I think we need a potential star more than a bunch of decent players. Even if both stars technically play the same position we can make it work. LA and Washington have made it work.

If the return of Ogwumike to the Sun frees up A. Thomas then Stokes and #10 for A. Thomas put her at the 3 and focus on bringing in a perimeter shooter to compliment her lack of shot. I don't see the Sun (or Alyssa) being to pumped for this move though.

I would consider Stokes for the #6 pick and hope someone was still (Mitchell, Deshields) but would have to wait until draft day to see, and then wouldn' Dallas just draft Deshields. I might even consider #10 for A. Davis or maybe even Stokes For A. Davis as she could still blossom but that is a risk.

If LA decides it needs another post Stokes for Sims. Sims still has star potential and maybe having learned to be a better defender and support player in LA will lead to her being ready to be a better Star in NY than she was in Dallas/Tulsa.

PS Stokes and our pick IMO are our most tradable assets nothing against Stoke personally. Size and defense still have value I think teams like Dallas, Atl, Seattle or LA could all find a good role for Stokes and those teams have enough scoring options that Stokes' limited offense wouldn't be an issue. Someone might like Prince or Rodgers but inconsistency, missing time to play in Russia, and playing the most well stocked position in the league does drop there value a little. The #10 pick in a deep but not top heavy draft will garner some interest and if a few declare early #10 will be a very good player in 2018. But probably not the star NY needs. If we don't trade it I will gladly settle for Nared, Billings, Canada or Nurse if they are still on the board.

I like McBride and McCoughtry but I just don't see those teams taking anything we could offer.

In other moves news I don't think we can get much for Vaughn, If SA wants to give us pick 13 or Indy want to give us pick 14 I would do it.

I'd offer Prince to Atl for Boyette (Epiphany has good rapport with Angel) but Imani would be more a size move than a 3rd legit star move.

Are only other option is Free Agency. Yeah if it is for free or a 2nd round pick and/or Zahui B I would bring back Swords. If R. Montgomery want to re-think her coming to NY decision I would be OK with that.

Develop Hartley, develop Raincock-Ekunwe keep working on the conversion to being a 3, develop L. Allen but bring in competitors for that back up spot, keep Zellous as the vet leader utility player. Hope Boyd is healthy and ready come 2018 but prepare for that not being the case.

Zahui B and R. Allen will need to fight for their spots. Keep Vaughn only if we can't trade her, have traded Stokes and/or no one better comes along. Check in with Shoni Schimmel because we still need 3 point shooting and some flash. In other retread news if they end up on the waiver wire give Burdick or Bulgak another shot, but I'm looking at the 4th or 5th post spots with them.

That is enough for now.




Last edited by J-Spoon on 09/10/17 11:21 pm; edited 4 times in total
Randy



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No thanks on Prince.


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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
No thanks on Prince.


What about Stokes and #10 for Hayes?


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PostPosted: 09/10/17 11:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What about Vaughn to Indiana or SA for their 2nd rounder?



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 4:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.


I agree, they need 2nd star player. Prince and Rodgers are not good 2nd scoring options for a good team. Stokes lack of scoring will be less of a worry when there are other good scoring options on the team.
For example put Stokes in the starting line-up from the Storm and she really could be that missing piece because she can focus on providing solid defense and all the little things while others provide the scoring. With the Liberty that scoring balance is not there IMO.

Stokes for the Storms first round pick? Or for Langhorne?



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Randy wrote:
No thanks on Prince.


What about Stokes and #10 for Hayes?


Maybe - depends on whether it is believed that Hayes might leave after her contact is up. Can't correct both Tip and Her Majesty.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There aren't enough stars -- especially perimeter-shooting stars -- to go around.

As has been pointed out, post players must have help to take over games, while guards start with the ball in their hands. Tina Charles is good, but it's too easy to make life hard for her without consistent perimeter shooting (something Brittany Boyd, for all her strengths, will not provide).

That hard truth is that's one reason the game is shifting away from post players, and New York's reliance on an inside presence (I think the idea was that Stokes and Vaughn would help the Liberty advance in postseason) catches up to them.

Now, that said, Toliver just went off, and there's not much you can do about that -- except have someone on your team who can go off in a similar manner, which the Liberty don't have (Rodgers is too easy to guard, and Prince isn't a great shooter).

Another point: Very few players develop a perimeter game at the pro level, and all the talk about Weatherspoon's coaching creating shooters is simply misguided. Remember, she couldn't shoot at all, but even if she had been a gunner, trying to rebuild a shot for a year-round player who must score to earn her money overseas is a tough project.

The best #10 pick I can find in recent years is Imani Boyette in 2016, or maybe Kaela Davis last year, so from the outside, it seems to me that the Liberty are stuck in the mediocre zone and relying on a player just on the downside of the aging curve to carry them to glory. They aren't bad enough, or even close, to get a No. 1 pick, and aren't good enough to win it all.

Of course, that describes about six or seven WNBA teams (and about 24 NBA teams). It sucks, but as a long-time Warrior fan who suffered decades of struggle because of that very situation, I know just how hard it is to break out.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This Very Happy

Thats why I cannot fathom when some think these interior players in college will be the best for the W to pick, especially those who have not shown a real perimeter game.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't really have a lot more to say than what I've written in the past. There's not much you can do about the vagaries of a one and done format. It does make one feel snookered -- like you bought that electronic gadget that doesn't work or made an online clothing purchase that doesn't look anything like the picture. You feel like you've wasted your time and money, so you're not going to buy that product or shop at that store anymore. Just something for the league to consider. Mad Anyway, a grinding defensive team with little margin for error is going to be more vulnerable to a one and done playoff. Bill actually came up with a good analogy when he compared this game to the Sami Whitcomb/Seattle game where NY also had no answer for a long-range shooter going off. Bill likes to say that the Liberty win when they remember who they are and play that way. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to leave room for a Plan B when things begin to go badly.

As for roster changes, I've been saying since the end of last season that this team needs to be rebalanced. "Making do" with people playing out of position means you're not getting the most out of those players, and it also requires adjustments to cover-up their weaknesses. NY has too many SGs and no legit starting SF or PG. They became very reliant on Zellous being sort of a PG surrogate, and whenever she's off the court their offense can become very discombobulated. You saw it yesterday. As soon as Rebecca Allen came in, things started falling apart. Not that it was Bec's fault -- although I'm sure some people will blame her. What happened is that without Z on the court, Hartley and Tina started forcing things and that led to a bucket of turnovers. Not only did this allow DC to score quick, easy baskets, but that also got Toliver started on her hot streak.

Rebalancing the roster is also necessary for the defense. Playing a defensive style that depends on active rotation and rebounding works better with a big team. This season, they played Big Ball with little people and somehow got away with it most of the time. Sooner or later it was going to catch-up with them, and against a big Mystics team it finally did. Along with a real PG and SF, a two-way center would be helpful. Vaughn and Stokes don't really have much in the way of low post moves, and anytime they face a bigger opponent they're easily stymied. On the defensive end, Vaughn doesn't block shots.

I'm not going to recommend specific moves at this point. There are too many variables and unknowns still to be determined. However, I suggest that people look at the whole roster -- how players are likely to be used or how they're likely to interact with each other. Simply saying this player sucks or I love that player isn't enough. Remember, a lot of the players who are now hated were very much liked at the end of last season. I assure you, it wasn't just the players who changed. It was also the systems, the roles they were asked to fill, and the other players in their rotation. For both the team and individuals to play well, the parts have to fit.



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UK1996



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty should try for another draft pick and try to get Nurse & Nared. Nurse would give them some shooting, Nared will take a little more time to develop. If they were a Lottery team KLS would be a good fit in 2018.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


Seems that she is less appreciated by NY fans that others. In the expansion draft thread it was suggested she not be protected. I like her as well.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


The Liberty's fortunes improved significantly in midseason when Hartley was installed as the starting "lead guard." But, in my view, Hartley really isn't a point guard. Her strengths aren't the strengths I'd want at that position. I don't see her as the starting point guard on a team that is a serious championship contender.

For 2018, I'd be happy to see Hartley as our #2 SG. I would not be happy to see her as our #1 PG.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Edit: Hmm, Swords is a free agent per the Seattle Times exit article.




Last edited by Nerd2 on 09/11/17 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
mercfan3



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley isn't a traditional Point Guard. But I do think starting Z and Hartley as 2 combo guards would be good for the team. They played well together, and they won a lot of games in a row.

Yes..the early exit hurt. But I think the dependence on Prince/Sugar hurts far more than not having a traditional point guard.

New York needs to use those two to get a reliable scoring SF, and a defensive minded center and/or stretch center.



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


Quote:
Seems that she is less appreciated by NY fans that others. In the expansion draft thread it was suggested she not be protected. I like her as well.


not me...you see my Avatar? lol that's how much i apprecate her all season when Boyd went down. Bob is right, she is not a PG, she made her mistakes at the position but overall she did one hell of a job and she should be rewarded of resigning with the New York Liberty.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I like Hartley and want to keep Hartley but also agree that she isn't a true PG. When we moved Hartley to the starting PG spot things were better, but I think she was sharing the PG duties with Zellous. Zellous seemed more often to run the offense in the half-court sets.

If we got a big PG with range or a two way SF I could see starting Hartley, Zellous and That 3rd player and having it be very effective. But if we got a player that fit that description I could also see starting Boyd or one of Price Rodgers and having Hartley as the first guard off the bench.

Hartley has a place on the Liberty next season IMO, and by the end of the season I saw her as a bright spot on the team, not a question mark, or liability.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. 3-way trade:

Seattle gets:Stokes,Zellous, & #10 pk(NY)
Phoenix gets:Langhorne,KML,R.Allen
NY gets:Bonner,Robinson,& #5 pk(Sea.)

2.Offer K.Bone a contract.Phoenix agrees not to match as part of the 3-way trade.

After making the two moves above.NY would have lots of options:

Charles
Bone
Bonner
Robinson
Prince
Rodgers
Hartley
Allen
Vaughn
Rain cock
Zahui b
#5 pick

Liberty make 1 or 2 more moves based on team need/who's available at #5

Possible acquisitions:
Hayes
Alexander
Boyatte
Hooper
Young
Holmes
McBride
S.Johnson


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley struggled early in the season. Understandable given that she was returning from her pregnancy, had come to a new team, and was often playing a position that isn't ideal for her. She was a real plus in the second half of the season.

In yesterday's game, Hartley had 15 points, second only to Charles. She shot 6-10 from the floor, including some key baskets when things weren't going well for New York but the game wasn't yet lost. Hartley had a team high five assists but also a team high five turnovers.

Over these three seasons, we've seen a lot of disappointing performances from Liberty players in playoff games. This was Hartley's first playoff game for New York. Despite the turnovers, I'd say it was a good game for her.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was rough on Bria in the first part of the season, and I'm still not thrilled with her, but she seems to have found a niche. But her being far better as a starter than as a reserve just fucks up the rotation further. I don't think we can bench both Piph and Sugar, I don't think Bria and Brittany Boyd are a balanced combo in the backcourt, and I don't think we can go three-guard set with the guards we have (and if we did, where does that leave Z?).



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If we trade Sugar, Hartley would then become the default back-up SG.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Edit: Hmm, Swords is a free agent per the Seattle Times exit article.


Come back to New York, Carolyn!!!!



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At the very least they'll sign-and-trade Hartley for something in return, even if they don't decide to keepp her. Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
I was rough on Bria in the first part of the season, and I'm still not thrilled with her, but she seems to have found a niche. But her being far better as a starter than as a reserve just fucks up the rotation further. I don't think we can bench both Piph and Sugar, I don't think Bria and Brittany Boyd are a balanced combo in the backcourt, and I don't think we can go three-guard set with the guards we have (and if we did, where does that leave Z?).


The fact that this season she was far better as a starter than as a reserve doesn't mean that would be true next season. She struggled in the first half of the season for all sorts of obvious reasons that I believe would have been true even if she'd been starting. By the second half of the season, she was far more comfortable. I think she'd have done just fine off the bench in the second half of the year.

I don't believe the issue with Hartley is whether she starts or comes off the bench. I believe it's whether she plays PG or SG. If possible, I'd trade Prince or Rodgers and make Hartley the #2 SG. Indeed, I'd prefer to trade both Prince and Rodgers and get a better starting SG, but I highly doubt that that's possible.

I like Hartley and would be happy to see her back next season. But I don't see her as good enough to start at either position.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
At the very least they'll sign-and-trade Hartley for something in return, even if they don't decide to keepp her. Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.


He traded Dominique Canty for Allison Curtin.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.


Yeah, like that trade for Tweety Nolan, for instance. He was able to unload that useless McCarville, who went on to help the Lynx as a starter to their arguably strongest Championship run.



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think most NY fans are very appreciative of what Hartley did for us this season. She got off to such a rough start that she couldn't even bring the ball up court without getting her pocket picked. However, Bria pulled things together and became an important contributor. The team was clearly better with her as the starting PG than with Prince. That said, Bria got a lot of help from Zellous and Prince when it came to creating plays off the dribble. As a test, the question you have to ask yourself is where would Hartley rank among starting PGs in the WNBA? Probably near or at the bottom. It's sort of like when Cruz was here. She was far better than anyone else the Liberty had, and Anna prevented the position from feeling like a gaping hole. Cruz did a lot of good things, but if you compared her to the other starting PGs in the league you'd see that she was below average.

The Liberty only have one star, so they need their starters to be really solid or someone young with star potential. Not many people view Hartley that way. She's certainly young enough so that she may still develop, and it wouldn't surprise me if Bria is given a chance to win the starting PG job next season because upgrading SF and C are more pressing needs. Nonetheless, I do believe management is open to improving the PG situation if a reasonable opportunity comes along.



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