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WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: 09/10/17 5:53 pm    ::: New York Liberty 2018 Reply Reply with quote

Sad to start this thread , But its only fair. Where do the changes begin? 2 straight exits in single eliminations in consecutive season says some things are not enough! Where do Lib Fans Start?



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Complete overhaul of our bench except for Nayo. Trade Vaughn and bring in a legit SF.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not really a NY fan, but to me it's pretty obvious
a) need a center. Vaughn and Stokes have combined for close to nothing in important games.
b) still need a SF. Zellous did a yeoman job of it this year but she's not really big enough, and is on the end side of her career.

On the plus side:
Tina is obviously Tina but she needs help. Hartley has actually started to play well enough to make me think she belongs. If Boyd can come back from injury in any kind of form, they should be ok at PG between the two of them. I like Piph and I like Sugar. Unfortunately both of them are pretty erratic. Still that SG position is fairly well covered. And Zellous can play there too if they actually had an SF.

SO actually I would re-sign Swords who I think will be a UFA. She worked really well in NY's scheme in limited minutes. Maybe try to find a trade for Stokes. Stokes for Holmes? And then hope something nice falls far enough to help in next year's draft.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

100% in favor of bringing back Swords. Draft a SF. Trade Vaughn & R. Allen for something.

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Swords/Stokes
12th: via Vaughn trade.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe GM's will think like some on this board and Gabby Williams or DD will fall that far. Doubtful of course. NY can always hope for some early declarers which will make somebody drop. More likely that Nared might be there and I've been impressed with her so that might turn out to be a good one. Is #10 too high for Ariel Atkins? She has the pretty good defensively thing going for her. A second rounder to consider might be Mikayla Cowling (Cal). I really don't see LFO going for a small guard considering the guards he already has. I guess if someone they are really hot on drops to #10, they could take her and try to move one of the existing guards, all of whom have some trade value.



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caune



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:05 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:12 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.


I'd be ok with that.

Going back to Swords & trading Vaughn. Will Swords be a UFA? If we can get her for nothing, then she needs to come back to New York. Vaughn & R. Allen to Minnesota for their #12 pick?



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adamj95



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:25 pm    ::: Re: New York 2018 Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
caune wrote:
A new Coach. Bill, and I know he has p personal stuff going on, but he seemed to hardly care this year. Retire and give the job to Katie.


I'd be ok with that.

Going back to Swords & trading Vaughn. Will Swords be a UFA? If we can get her for nothing, then she needs to come back to New York. Vaughn & R. Allen to Minnesota for their #12 pick?


No thank you. I don't think the Lynx would be able to make that trade anyways, salary cap wise.



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Admiral_Needa



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea





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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea




I thought about this. But it would likely involve their pick(#10) plus a bunch of scraps(Vaughn, R. Allen? Hartley?). I don't think the Liberty have enough to trade for her.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd start with this: something is fundamentally wrong.

Over three consecutive seasons, we've seen the Liberty do extremely well in the regular season despite significant injuries. We've seen our team record some impressive victories in each regular season, including a bunch in the recent 10-game winning streak.

But this team has dramatically underperformed in the playoffs in three consecutive seasons, with home-court advantage in all four rounds against teams with weaker records. 2015: barely beat Washington, two games to one, in the opening round. Then lost two out of three to Indiana. 2016 and 2017: lost the do-or-die games to Phoenix and now Washington.

Regular season record for 2015-2017: 66 wins and 36 losses. Playoff record for those three seasons: three wins and five losses. Playoff record at home in those seasons: two wins and four losses.

I find that very distressing and disappointing. And I'm not putting it on Tina Charles. She needs more help. Today, with Delle Donne struggling and Meeseman playing terribly, Kristi Tolliver had a superb performance. That's what you need to win crucial playoff games: someone, sometimes someone unexpected, to soar. And over these three seasons the support crew for Charles just hasn't done it nearly enough.

I hate the do-or-die setup for teams that finish 3rd and 4th. But, bottom line, a good team finds ways to win playoff games, especially at home. Our team just hasn't.

I wish I had answers. I don't.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How about Stokes to Indiana for MoMo. I'm thinking if Indiana acquires Bonner, they will have an overload at G and Johnson's coming back from an injury so maybe they would be willing to part with her.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Piph and Sugar can't co-exist. Trade either or both.

Shape up or ship out, Kia. Ditto, Amanda. Ditto, Rebecca.

We need to figure out what Bria's position is.

Get your goddamn act together, Kiah. Consistency or GTFO.

We need a small forward and at minimum a backup point guard.

In the heat of the moment, the only players I wouldn't entertain offers or airplane tickets for are Tina, Shavonte, Bria, Brittany, and Nayo.

Go away, Bill. Take Katie and Herb with you. I'm indifferent to Spoon. Rosie can stay, though.

Burn this playoff system to the ground. Burn the ashes. Bury the ashes at a crossroads with a stake through them.



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am going to try to keep this rant simple.

Today we witness AGAIN playoff format is BULLSHIT. I can’t take the pain anymore of this BULLSHIT single elimination and my team that work so hard during the end regular season on a 10 game wining streak to be over one BAD game.

BUT…you know what…the Liberty got nobody to blame but themselves.

I’ve said this before, root_thing/J-Spoon is with me on this, i selfishly wanted them finish at the 5th or 6th spot because I KNEW watching this team all year i just don't have the faith/belief that they can make a run in the playoffs, and they prove me RIGHT. Now we have the 10th pick in the 2018 WNBA DRAFT.

I want KIA VAUGHN out of New York so bad, I will pack her shit for her and buy the ticket first class outta here. She is HORRIBLE

SUGAR RODGERS. Fellow Libs fans, I don’t know about you guys but I’ve had enuff of her inconsistent chucking the basketball from 300 ft bricks. I’d look to trade her, one day she’s all-star and another day she’s a BUM. Overall she’s good energy spark off the bench player, she’s not a STAR. You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

Lachina made a great point that I’ve been saying since Tina Charles put on the Liberty uniform, you need guards to break down the defense and make shots, EPIPHANNY PRINCE did all she can do, she’s just not athletic enuff and slow but she redeem herself because after she came back from overseas she was a mess, but she played great down the stretch. I just wish she never had this overseas commitment because maybe would of got that chemisty earlier in the year.

KIAH STOKES. Honestly its up to Liberty management to do with her, she is what she is. If she has any value, make her avaliable via trade and see what they can get

THE BENCH. The Rebecca Allen experiment is offically over in my eyes. she had opportunity all year to get more minutes but she missed a lot of open shot she usually makes. Zahui B. GOODBYE. The only bright spot on the bench is Ms Raincock I love her athleticism and potential but she need to work on getting a 15 foot shot and freethrows, I think she can play the SF if she can get a jumper

WHAT I WANT and think we should get. I agree with Toad, we need a SF via free agency, trade, or Draft
I think we should take a shot at trying to get Kayla McBride, she is a restricted so a sign and trade would get it done, I would trade 2018 1st round pick + Sugar Rodgers or Prince

THE DRAFT. The Liberty GM Laimbeer or Thomas or whoever…who knows. Now with the 10th my dreams are crushed because I know there is no chance of getting Gabby Williams or a Kelsey Mitchell. Especially Gabby, she would fit so perfect with this team but it what it is. But back to reality,

Jordin Canada. I don’t care what people say this girl can BALL.

Jaime Nared. Long 6-2 wing player can run, can shot, play D, this is my main get to draft.

Monique Billings, a beast. As athletic as Gabby Williams and taller.

Lexie Brown. combo guard, great shooter, and play good D.

Kia Nurse. another combo guard at 6'0 i think she can play the 3 aswell, great hard nose player i like her

my sleeper will be Victoria Vivians. i know Toad is not a fan of but this girl can score, she has the perfect body size at 6-1 for the SF spot. she had bad up and down Junior Season but i am going to be watching her to see if she bounces back


ok i am done, back to the sorry ass Giants game.


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Admiral_Needa wrote:
Make a play for Angel McCoughtry Shocked Idea




I thought about this. But it would likely involve their pick(#10) plus a bunch of scraps(Vaughn, R. Allen? Hartley?). I don't think the Liberty have enough to trade for her.


I got this, Randy.

You've gotta be kidding me if you think #10 & scraps is good enough to secure McCoughtry. Stokes + #10 in 2018 + first in 2019, and quite honestly I still wouldn't do it unless ATL is giving up on the McCoughtry window of opportunity.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:

I want KIA VAUGHN out of New York so bad, I will pack her shit for her and buy the ticket first class outta here. She is HORRIBLE


YES!!! #BringBackSwords

Quote:
SUGAR RODGERS. Fellow Libs fans, I don’t know about you guys but I’ve had enuff of her inconsistent chucking the basketball from 300 ft bricks. I’d look to trade her, one day she’s all-star and another day she’s a BUM. Overall she’s good energy spark off the bench player, she’s not a STAR. You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.


I didn't want to get flamed by some fans on here so I didn't mention it, but I'm clearly not the only one. I'm all for trading Sugar. Maybe Sugar, Vaughn & their #10 pick to Indiana for their lottery pick(unless it's the #1) & S. Johnson. Johnson works at covering both the 1 & 2 spots. I'm still baffled that she had her worst season(in NY) and won 6th woman.

Quote:
Lachina made a great point that I’ve been saying since Tina Charles put on the Liberty uniform, you need guards to break down the defense and make shots, EPIPHANNY PRINCE did all she can do, she’s just not athletic enuff and slow but she redeem herself because after she came back from overseas she was a mess, but she played great down the stretch. I just wish she never had this overseas commitment because maybe would of got that chemisty earlier in the year.


This is the log jam at SG. Prince, Rodgers & technically Zellous & Hartley. TRADE SUGAR. Zellous still starts at SF, but our pick gets most of the minutes there.

Quote:
KIAH STOKES. Honestly its up to Liberty management to do with her, she is what she is. If she has any value, make her avaliable via trade and see what they can get


She's worthy of being a back-up. She clearly can't be consistent enough to provide solid offense every game. Stokes stays, for now.

Quote:
THE BENCH. The Rebecca Allen experiment is offically over in my eyes. she had opportunity all year to get more minutes but she missed a lot of open shot she usually makes. Zahui B. GOODBYE. The only bright spot on the bench is Ms Raincock I love her athleticism and potential but she need to work on getting a 15 foot shot and freethrows, I think she can play the SF if she can get a jumper


Dump them all but Nayo. Zahui B was glued to the bench all season. Enough excuses already. R. Allen showed glimmers, but is she worth keeping if we can find someone slightly better?



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've said here for years that it's very, very rare to win in pro basketball with only one star. But it's even less likely when your one star is a post player. Tina Charles is great, but she can't take over a game the same way a quick, agile shooting guard or small forward can. This is why over time the NBA moved from a league dominated by centers to a league dominated by guards or tall players who can play like guards when need be.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shot-creating guards also tend to help you win down the stretch of playoff games. The Detroit Shock were an inside-out team generally. But in the fourth quarter of many of those games it was Nolan time.

We need another creative wing player with an outside shot. With SF size. Unfortunately those players are hard to get.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.


All true. And all the young players they have had since 2015 took a step back or got hurt. Had they shown more growth there would at least be more wiggle room to trade with.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to return to something that I addressed during the offseason, as did others. And that has been discussed throughout the season.

I said that for the Liberty to be a genuine championship contender we needed substantial improvement from at least two of our four returning younger players: Boyd, Stokes, Rebecca Allen, and Zahui B.

We all know the results: we got substantial improvement from NONE of the four. Boyd was lost due to injury. Stokes, apart from one great stretch, was in my view worse than last season. Allen contributed little and Zahui B. contributed next to nothing. This didn't just hurt New York in 2017; it's damaging on many levels (including potential trade value) going forward. Add in the even more discouraging fact that Rodgers was significantly worse in 2017 than in 2016.

For me, only three players on the roster gave the team more than I'd have expected. Shavonte Zellous was inspiring and pushed herself and the team to be better. I give her a huge gold star for her contributions. I had limited expectations for Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe and Lindsay Allen and they both gave the team more than I'd figured. Tina Charles had her usual terrific season. I said in the offseason that I felt she'd be an important vocal leader this year, some Liberty fans said they thought she couldn't do that, and I believe I was right.

That's about where my positive comments end: Charles, Zellous, Raincock-Ekunwe, and Lindsay Allen.



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Losing Boyd hurt New York. I think she was poised to have a breakout season.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If NY doesn't want Bill anymore Dream need a coach and GM. Holmes for NY FRP. I might do Stokes for Holmes is expansion does not happen.

I think NY problem is that they play really hard all season and when other teams turn it up a notch NY doesn't have another notch to turn up. They play at playoff level all year.


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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still like our team and the players on our team.

But I agree with the overall sentiment that we need more stars.

We need a second best player. We've got a best player and some very talented role players but no legit 2nd option. We thought Prince or Rodgers might be that player, but they haven't been.

I would trade one of Prince or Rodgers, personally I prefer Suguar I think she's a better fit as a 3rd option starting at the 2 for the Liberty, but can see why people are frustrated with her. I also think Rodgers is a better starter than bench player think about last season and when Prince was ot. Things worked better IMO. But neither Rodgers or Prince are at 2nd star level IMO.

So how do we get that 2nd star. Most likely through trades. But without great talent we're going to have to combine assets and look to fill needs for other teams as well as take advantage of other teams log jams.

My 1st suggestion would be Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 and hope that Deshields, Mitchell or G. Williams falls there. I like G. Williams but for what I think the Liberty need as a second option prefer the more defined scoring role at the next level that Mitchell or Deshields would have. Deshields would be my first choice head case or not. Deshields could be a bust, but I still think her combination of size, athleticism, skill and ego will lead to her being a star. Maybe not a perennial all-star but better than anyone the Liberty has ATM not named Charles.

With McCoughtry coming back does Atl love Sykes enough to give us Hayes for Stokes and the #10 pick. Hayes would fit well with Charles, is big enough to play SF sometime, fits Liberty grit, and is better IMO than Prince or Rodgers. I would also offer Prince and #10 for Hayes and #16, and would still do it if Atl wouldn't include #16 but might as well give it a shot.

The above trades are the only one I think are based in some reality.

I would offer the Sun all of our Huskies (Hartley and Stokes) and the #10 pick for a possibly healthy C. Ogwumike but I don't see the sun making that move. High risk but again at this point I think we need a potential star more than a bunch of decent players. Even if both stars technically play the same position we can make it work. LA and Washington have made it work.

If the return of Ogwumike to the Sun frees up A. Thomas then Stokes and #10 for A. Thomas put her at the 3 and focus on bringing in a perimeter shooter to compliment her lack of shot. I don't see the Sun (or Alyssa) being to pumped for this move though.

I would consider Stokes for the #6 pick and hope someone was still (Mitchell, Deshields) but would have to wait until draft day to see, and then wouldn' Dallas just draft Deshields. I might even consider #10 for A. Davis or maybe even Stokes For A. Davis as she could still blossom but that is a risk.

If LA decides it needs another post Stokes for Sims. Sims still has star potential and maybe having learned to be a better defender and support player in LA will lead to her being ready to be a better Star in NY than she was in Dallas/Tulsa.

PS Stokes and our pick IMO are our most tradable assets nothing against Stoke personally. Size and defense still have value I think teams like Dallas, Atl, Seattle or LA could all find a good role for Stokes and those teams have enough scoring options that Stokes' limited offense wouldn't be an issue. Someone might like Prince or Rodgers but inconsistency, missing time to play in Russia, and playing the most well stocked position in the league does drop there value a little. The #10 pick in a deep but not top heavy draft will garner some interest and if a few declare early #10 will be a very good player in 2018. But probably not the star NY needs. If we don't trade it I will gladly settle for Nared, Billings, Canada or Nurse if they are still on the board.

I like McBride and McCoughtry but I just don't see those teams taking anything we could offer.

In other moves news I don't think we can get much for Vaughn, If SA wants to give us pick 13 or Indy want to give us pick 14 I would do it.

I'd offer Prince to Atl for Boyette (Epiphany has good rapport with Angel) but Imani would be more a size move than a 3rd legit star move.

Are only other option is Free Agency. Yeah if it is for free or a 2nd round pick and/or Zahui B I would bring back Swords. If R. Montgomery want to re-think her coming to NY decision I would be OK with that.

Develop Hartley, develop Raincock-Ekunwe keep working on the conversion to being a 3, develop L. Allen but bring in competitors for that back up spot, keep Zellous as the vet leader utility player. Hope Boyd is healthy and ready come 2018 but prepare for that not being the case.

Zahui B and R. Allen will need to fight for their spots. Keep Vaughn only if we can't trade her, have traded Stokes and/or no one better comes along. Check in with Shoni Schimmel because we still need 3 point shooting and some flash. In other retread news if they end up on the waiver wire give Burdick or Bulgak another shot, but I'm looking at the 4th or 5th post spots with them.

That is enough for now.




Last edited by J-Spoon on 09/10/17 11:21 pm; edited 4 times in total
Randy



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No thanks on Prince.


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