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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
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 Posted: 08/07/18 5:51 am ::: |
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The Liberty(some fans) are down on Stokes.But yet,they are very hesitant to include her in any trade.
Trade proposal:
1.Stokes for Gulich.
2.Stokes for Copper.
3.Stokes for Langhorne.
4.Stokes for Shatori Walker-Kimbrough.
5.Stokes for A.Jones.
6.Stokes for Sims.
7.Stokes for Jefferson.
8.Stokes for Lavender.
9 Stokes for T.Mitchell.
10.Stokes for a late first rd pick.
Last edited by zune69 on 08/07/18 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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snlMINAJ
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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| Posted: 08/07/18 5:58 am ::: |
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| i think its hideous that we can't get a concrete answer on whether stokes is injured or not.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/07/18 7:14 am ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
The Liberty(some fans) are down on Stokes.But yet,they are very hesitant to include her in any trade.
Trade proposal:
1.Stokes for Gulich.
2.Stokes for Copper.
5.Stokes for A.Jones.
10.Stokes for a 2nd rd pick. |
I think the problem is that Stokes trade value has probably dropped this year. I don't see most of those trades as being realistic. I deleted the ones that seem unlikely unless the Liberty add something else and changed the draft pick.
Last edited by Randy on 08/07/18 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ClayK
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| Posted: 08/07/18 10:02 am ::: |
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Kia Nurse has the potential to be a very good player in the WNBA; she could also turn out to be ordinary.
Zahui B has shown she might be a solid starter in the league; she could also have hit her ceiling.
We know who Marissa Coleman is. We know who Sugar Rodgers is. We know who Epiphanny Prince is. We know who Brittany Boyd is. We know who Kia Vaughn is.
You don't have to understand Aristotle's syllogisms to come to a conclusion here ...
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 08/07/18 10:19 am ::: |
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| snlMINAJ wrote: |
| i think its hideous that we can't get a concrete answer on whether stokes is injured or not. |
And if Kiah is injured, why is she playing? In the last five games, she logged anywhere from 4 to 8 minutes. How is that helping the team? Stokes has been mostly ineffective all season long. If this is due to injury, wouldn't it make more sense for her to sit out until she is healthy? On the other hand, if Kiah is healthy but in the doghouse, then that raises my question from training camp: why did management give a premature contract extension to someone they spent all last season criticizing as being overweight? Stokes had just arrived in training camp and had not played in preseason games yet. So, they gave her a contract extension just based on looks?
| zune69 wrote: |
| The Liberty(some fans) are down on Stokes.But yet,they are very hesitant to include her in any trade. |
Which Liberty fan(s) is hesitant to trade Stokes? I haven't seen a post like that lately. I would do Stokes for Copper in a heartbeat. If they don't get a center in the draft, I would consider Stokes for Gulich.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/07/18 10:32 am ::: |
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| snlMINAJ wrote: |
| i think its hideous that we can't get a concrete answer on whether stokes is injured or not. |
Yes.
The situation with Stokes is completely bizarre and the questions raised above by root_thing are right on the mark.
I would be hesitant to trade Stokes at the moment only because her trade value (my guess) is next to nothing. She was virtually worthless this season for whatever reasons. But, let's not forget, she had a very disappointing season in 2017. Right at the point (3rd and 4th seasons in the WNBA) where you'd hope a player is reaching her best level, Stokes has gone way backward. Indeed, in my view, her 2nd season was a step downhill from her rookie year.
So I'd surely trade Stokes for someone good or promising. But it's hard for me to believe that another team's GM is going to give up much for Stokes.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 08/07/18 11:18 am ::: |
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| I do believe Stokes had a good off season, so it’d be wise to get to the heart of the matter instead of hastily disposing of her. Remember, there were those who wanted to dispose of Zahui, and now she’s the bees knees. Now you probably wouldn’t even consider trading Zahui for a second round pick, even though that’s exactly what Reeve got for Howard.
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/07/18 11:55 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Which Liberty fan(s) is hesitant to trade Stokes? I haven't seen a post like that lately. I would do Stokes for Copper in a heartbeat. If they don't get a center in the draft, I would consider Stokes for Gulich. |
Well,not lately,but Lib fans have been hesitant in the past about trading Stokes.I believe Stokes(barring serious injury) still provides great value on the defensive side of the ball.Enough value to bring back a young player with very good upside(Copper,Gulich etc..)...Chicago is in desperate need of a defensive PF,and are overloaded at the wing position.Copper would provide the Liberty with much needed size,athletic ability and scoring punch at the SF position.Phoenix could also use a defensive PF.Gulich would give the Liberty a legit 6'5 skilled raw(physically) post that they could develop over the next 2-3 years..........Any trade would more than likely happen during/after the 2019 draft.
| root_thing wrote: |
And if Kiah is injured, why is she playing? In the last five games, she logged anywhere from 4 to 8 minutes. How is that helping the team? Stokes has been mostly ineffective all season long. If this is due to injury, wouldn't it make more sense for her to sit out until she is healthy? On the other hand, if Kiah is healthy but in the doghouse, then that raises my question from training camp: why did management give a premature contract extension to someone they spent all last season criticizing as being overweight? Stokes had just arrived in training camp and had not played in preseason games yet. So, they gave her a contract extension just based on looks?
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+1......If Stokes isn't fully healthy.Playing her limited minutes makes absolutely no sense.
| Shades wrote: |
| so it’d be wise to get to the heart of the matter instead of hastily disposing of her. . |
Agreed
Last edited by zune69 on 08/07/18 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/07/18 12:21 pm ::: |
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I wasn’t speaking specifically to you, root, but to the general anti-Stokes climate.
By “getting to the heart of the matter” I mean figuring out the most likely impossible task of what’s up with her, whether it’s health, emotional, political, or otherwise, instead of just assuming she's hopelessly bad and not worth keeping.
I distinctly remember a play this season where she drove to the basket like she was A’ja Wilson. Now why can’t she do that for 25 min? It’s somebody else’s job to figure that out.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 08/07/18 1:13 pm ::: |
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Stokes was crucial to the Liberty defense over the previous three years. One can argue that a big reason for NY's defensive collapse this season is because Stokes hasn't been able to contribute -- whether that's because of injury or simple ineffectiveness. The question now is will the old Kiah ever return? No one knows. However, looking at the big picture, long-term trends are moving against her:
1) Stokes had a very good rookie season. In her second year, Kiah was still effective defensively but not as effective. However, she did improve her rebounding (7.4 vs 6.4 rpg) so let's say she remained about the same. Then last year, Stokes was accused of being out of shape and had her minutes cut. She was still a decent player, but an inconsistent one. That brings us to the present where Kiah has been a total non-factor. Yes, we should find out for sure what's happening with her health. However, if you look at Stokes' career overall -- especially on defense which is her calling card -- the performance trajectory is downward.
2) Centers entering the league these days are getting taller and taller. That means at 6-3 Stokes is becoming undersized.
3) Despite 8 years of prompting from her coaches (starting with Geno) Kiah has not significantly improved her offensive game. Even though she is only 25, it's hard to believe Stokes will ever be even an average offensive player because she appears unmotivated.
Yes, it's possible Stokes will bounce back and be a useful defensive player again. And maybe a move to PF will help as the league gets bigger. However, she'll still be more of a specialist who fits better on a contending team with strong offensive players surrounding her. For a rebuilding team like NY, which needs roster flexibility, Stokes may have more value as a trading chip. Her value is down, but you can probably find a comparable young player on another team whose value is also down. Then make the proverbial change of scenery trade.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 08/07/18 10:47 pm ::: |
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I like Stokes but ATM I think she has little to no trade value
This season has been horrible for her, I am assuming something is wrong, and next season she starts on a multi year max or close to max extension.
I just don't see another team taking that on unless it is for a late 2nd or 3rd round pick, or a player who was going to get cut.
The good news is, she will probably be better next year and NY is so thin in the post we need her. If we can get someone better than her and/or Zahui B to start alongside Charles Stokes and Zahui B would be an OK 3rd and 4th post option one giving offense the other giving defense.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 08/07/18 11:14 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Which Liberty fan(s) is hesitant to trade Stokes? |
Umm, me. I don't have a better reason than "I became a Liberty fan during her rookie season and she's my favorite player" though. Objectively, I echo the sentiments of almost everyone here.
I thought Kiah played solid defense and rebounded well for the first half of her season playing-time wise, but that has dropped off lately. The offensive game has been almost invisible the whole way. I don't know this for sure, but careless turnovers seem to be up too.
Maybe the foot injury is nagging her, but there's one thing it can't explain: what is up with Kiah's hands? As root_thing said in the game thread, "Kiah hasn't seen a pass coming all season long," and I've been scratching my head about that very same thing all year. Before this year, I would have listed surehandedness as one of Kiah's positive attributes. The passes regularly catch her unaware, and she's making tips on rebounds rather than grabbing them.
Since she's under contract, she'll probably be back with the Liberty next year, because I don't think she'll bring back anything decent at all in a trade right now. I can only hope that she manages to prove herself somehow and that the Liberty keep her.
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:05 am ::: |
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| Okay, lets do this deal after the season, Meesseeman, Walker-Kimbrough and the Mystics 2019 1st rd pick for Tina Charles, a better deal than what the Mystics gave the Sky for Delle Donne.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:24 am ::: |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| Okay, lets do this deal after the season, Meesseeman, Walker-Kimbrough and the Mystics 2019 1st rd pick for Tina Charles, a better deal than what the Mystics gave the Sky for Delle Donne. |
really? What the Sky got was much better than any of the previous on-demand trades! The Sky pretty much got nothing in the Dupree to Phoenix move or in the Fowles to Minny. The Sun got very little in the Tina to NY trade (ok they got A. Thomas who turned out to be better than everyone thought at the time). At least the Sky got a starter in the EDD trade, along with Copper who is working her way into being a decent player, and the #2 pick that they wasted on Coates.
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SportsGuru
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:32 am ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| SportsGuru wrote: |
| Okay, lets do this deal after the season, Meesseeman, Walker-Kimbrough and the Mystics 2019 1st rd pick for Tina Charles, a better deal than what the Mystics gave the Sky for Delle Donne. |
really? What the Sky got was much better than any of the previous on-demand trades! The Sky pretty much got nothing in the Dupree to Phoenix move or in the Fowles to Minny. The Sun got very little in the Tina to NY trade (ok they got A. Thomas who turned out to be better than everyone thought at the time). At least the Sky got a starter in the EDD trade, along with Copper who is working her way into being a decent player, and the #2 pick that they wasted on Coates. |
Meesseman is a better player than Dolan and Walker-Kimbrough will be just as good as Copper plus the Libs will have two 1st rd picks in the 2019 WNBA Draft
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:53 am ::: |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| SportsGuru wrote: |
| Okay, lets do this deal after the season, Meesseeman, Walker-Kimbrough and the Mystics 2019 1st rd pick for Tina Charles, a better deal than what the Mystics gave the Sky for Delle Donne. |
really? What the Sky got was much better than any of the previous on-demand trades! The Sky pretty much got nothing in the Dupree to Phoenix move or in the Fowles to Minny. The Sun got very little in the Tina to NY trade (ok they got A. Thomas who turned out to be better than everyone thought at the time). At least the Sky got a starter in the EDD trade, along with Copper who is working her way into being a decent player, and the #2 pick that they wasted on Coates. |
Meesseman is a better player than Dolan and Walker-Kimbrough will be just as good as Copper plus the Libs will have two 1st rd picks in the 2019 WNBA Draft |
They cant technically give their 1st RD pick away . If they finish behind dallas which is unlikely they would have to swap picks.
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zune69
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:00 am ::: |
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If Chicago lands the #2 pick.......Copper,N,dour & #2 pk for T.Charles & Rodgers.
Of course,any trade would need Tina's approval.
Chicago:
G-Sloot
G-Quigley
C-Dolson
F-Charles
F-DeShields
6-Gabby
7-Parker
8-Rodgers
9-Coates
New York:
G-Boyd
G-Nurse
C-McCowen/Brown
F-Zahui B
F-Copper
6-Stokes
7-N,Dour
8-Liberty Lottery pick(Durr,KLS,Collier)
9-Vaughn
The Liberty's lottery pick would start....Collier playing PF alongside McCowen would be a good PF/C combo ...Put Stokes or Vaughn on the trading block....Sign L.Allen,or re-sign Hartley.
Last edited by zune69 on 08/08/18 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:21 am ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| The Sun got very little in the Tina to NY trade (ok they got A. Thomas who turned out to be better than everyone thought at the time) |
Very little? I consider it a franchise-changing trade.
Not only did Connecticut get Alyssa Thomas (who I rated as the #2 pick in 2014 and took some heat for it from the Sims groupies), they also got Kelsey Bone (#5 pick in 2013), who went all MIP under Donovan. They were able to parlay Bone’s unhappiness with Miller (I can relate) into acquiring Courtney Williams, an occasional contributor. You left out that they also got Liberty’s first round pick in 2015, which turned out to be EWill. For some reason Connecticut liked the idea of being in the UConn draft of 2016 instead of keeping EWill. That was arguably a mistake. They ended up with Banham (or Tuck, either could have been slotted as the #4 pick) for EWill. They could have alleviated that mistake of trading EWill by drafting Jonquel Jones at #4 and thereby keeping Chelsea Gray, but apparently they valued Banham (or Tuck) more than either Gray or JJones. Oh, they also gave up the first round pick that turned into Allisha Gray in the deal to acquire JJones. Connecticut could have been a real behemoth if they would have drafted JJones at #4 (keeping Gray and LAS first round pick in 2016).
Whew.
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/08/18 11:48 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Meesseman is a better player than Dolan and Walker-Kimbrough will be just as good as Copper plus the Libs will have two 1st rd picks in the 2019 WNBA Draft |
They cant technically give their 1st RD pick away. |
I don’t see why not. They have a first round pick and the position of that pick will be decided by the end of this season.... most likely around a #9-#11 pick.
Like I said before, I don’t think Meesseman would be amenable to a trade to the Liberty. She’s already found an excuse not to play this season for a WNBA club that she actually likes. The excuses would come lot easier with the Liberty.
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root_thing
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/08/18 10:06 pm ::: |
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| One home game left, then a very tough four games in six days road trip. It's awful to ponder how the Liberty have a very real chance of finishing the season 7-27, concluding with a 13-game losing streak.
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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 08/08/18 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luuuc
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