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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 08/05/18 11:13 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| How are you guys feeling about hartley? I wouldn't mind her down here in good.ole texas next season. |
If Hartley leaves NY. (On her own) I have a feeling it would be for Minnesota. Big sis Maya is there, and Minny has a desperate need for a guard. |
Some Lynx fans disagree that they need a guard |
You know what, I hope the Lynx Gm feels the same way.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/05/18 11:34 am ::: |
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Even if you think they're keeping DRob and she and Alexis Jones can just slide up one spot in the rotation, they're going to need somebody next season if Whalen retires as expected (and I'd expect Tanisha Wright will probably walk off into the sunset as well).
I'm just not convinced that Hartley's really the answer. Maybe she could kinda fill the Wright role, but I'd imagine they'll be aiming higher one way or another for a starting point guard. |
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/05/18 12:29 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Even if you think they're keeping DRob and she and Alexis Jones can just slide up one spot in the rotation, they're going to need somebody next season if Whalen retires as expected (and I'd expect Tanisha Wright will probably walk off into the sunset as well).
I'm just not convinced that Hartley's really the answer. Maybe she could kinda fill the Wright role, but I'd imagine they'll be aiming higher one way or another for a starting point guard. |
I like Hartley, but in my view she's not a point guard, definitely not a starting point guard, and indeed shouldn't be a WNBA starter. She's an acceptable #2 guard off the bench. That's it.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/05/18 1:29 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Even if you think they're keeping DRob and she and Alexis Jones can just slide up one spot in the rotation, they're going to need somebody next season if Whalen retires as expected (and I'd expect Tanisha Wright will probably walk off into the sunset as well).
I'm just not convinced that Hartley's really the answer. Maybe she could kinda fill the Wright role, but I'd imagine they'll be aiming higher one way or another for a starting point guard. |
I like Hartley, but in my view she's not a point guard, definitely not a starting point guard, and indeed shouldn't be a WNBA starter. She's an acceptable #2 guard off the bench. That's it. |
I think we have an idealized version of what a PG is, and what starting quality is.
She’s not sloot, Gray, Diggins, Bird..etc. but who is in that second tier group. Truth is, good pgs are rare, pure pgs are rarer.
she was the starting PG for a 3 seed. So it’s tough to say she’s not a pg or a starter. Is there really any difference between her and Montgomery, January, Plum, pondexter, Boyd, and Whalen/Robinson, or Thomas.
I think you can debate who is better or worse, (I think she’s a bit better than quite a few on that list.) but it isn’t by much either way. I think it’s a bit more about fit and what a team is looking for, not so much an upgrade...because there aren’t too many upgrades to go around.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 08/05/18 2:31 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| How are you guys feeling about hartley? I wouldn't mind her down here in good.ole texas next season. |
If Hartley leaves NY. (On her own) I have a feeling it would be for Minnesota. Big sis Maya is there, and Minny has a desperate need for a guard. |
Some Lynx fans disagree that they need a guard |
You know what, I hope the Lynx Gm feels the same way. |
Hartley can come down south !
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Fishhappy
Joined: 15 Mar 2014
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Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: 08/05/18 2:32 pm ::: |
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| IMO you need a center.Hartley/ Boyd are adequate and not even close to your most pressing problem. If you get I or 2 in the lottery your ok. If not I don't think that a guard Is going to transform a lottery team to a contender. Stokes has not improved to the extent she should have at this point and looks like what she is now is the top. Vaughn is at best lower tier Wnba center whose skills are declining with time. The liberty bench is really poor. Neither Allen or Coleman are Wnba caliber players any longer .
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/05/18 2:34 pm ::: |
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| We've seen in Dallas how they shouldn't have let Chong go. Maybe Liberty should give her a look next season to back-up Boyd. I think Zellous goes elsewhere. Coleman, Allen & Vaughn are not worth bringing back.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: 08/05/18 2:47 pm ::: |
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| I hope that Raincock-Akunwe returns next season.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/05/18 2:54 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Even if you think they're keeping DRob and she and Alexis Jones can just slide up one spot in the rotation, they're going to need somebody next season if Whalen retires as expected (and I'd expect Tanisha Wright will probably walk off into the sunset as well).
I'm just not convinced that Hartley's really the answer. Maybe she could kinda fill the Wright role, but I'd imagine they'll be aiming higher one way or another for a starting point guard. |
I like Hartley, but in my view she's not a point guard, definitely not a starting point guard, and indeed shouldn't be a WNBA starter. She's an acceptable #2 guard off the bench. That's it. |
I think we have an idealized version of what a PG is, and what starting quality is.
She’s not sloot, Gray, Diggins, Bird..etc. but who is in that second tier group. Truth is, good pgs are rare, pure pgs are rarer.
she was the starting PG for a 3 seed. So it’s tough to say she’s not a pg or a starter. Is there really any difference between her and Montgomery, January, Plum, pondexter, Boyd, and Whalen/Robinson, or Thomas.
I think you can debate who is better or worse, (I think she’s a bit better than quite a few on that list.) but it isn’t by much either way. I think it’s a bit more about fit and what a team is looking for, not so much an upgrade...because there aren’t too many upgrades to go around. |
She was a starting PG on a winning team in Laimbeer’s system. That makes a very big difference. In any offense dictated by a PG, her deficiencies show up. What annoys me is there’s teams out there she could have helped at the trade deadline, where she could have played roles more in keeping with her ability.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: 08/05/18 4:27 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| She was a starting PG on a winning team in Laimbeer’s system. That makes a very big difference. In any offense dictated by a PG, her deficiencies show up. What annoys me is there’s teams out there she could have helped at the trade deadline, where she could have played roles more in keeping with her ability. |
We don't know what has been happening behind closed doors. Some people on this board have a much more positive view of Hartley than I do. If they/you are right, then she could indeed have helped various teams if moved before the trade deadline.
Certainly possible that one or more of those teams expressed interest in getting Hartley but the price was unreasonably high. Also possible that those teams simply didn't want Hartley. Or didn't think it was worth giving up much to get her.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/05/18 4:57 pm ::: |
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Who knows? I just know Kaela Davis is playing PG for Dallas right now and TRP has played some backup PG for DC...and both are less of PGs than Hartley is. One could argue that they each make Hartley look like John Stockton.
I'm watching the DC-Dallas game right now and the last two possessions for Dallas have been such that if they blow the lead and lose based on several mistakes by Davis on both ends...you could argue lack of a PG cost them the game.
And now that they lost, I am indeed going to make that argument. They should have won this game. And viable PG play would have won them each of their last two games. Had they done that they'd have been a half a game out of a third seed instead of a game and a half above eighth.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:03 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
She was a starting PG on a winning team in Laimbeer’s system. That makes a very big difference. In any offense dictated by a PG, her deficiencies show up. What annoys me is there’s teams out there she could have helped at the trade deadline, where she could have played roles more in keeping with her ability. |
Of course.
But again, who on that list of starting PGs (outside of Sloot, Gray, Diggins, and Bird) would really do well in a system overly dependent on a PG?
So I think for most of them, it’s a matter of finding the right fit. Hartley happened to have the right fit in Laimbeer’s system. She might not be in Katie’s. Maybe she is elsewhere?
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Location: NJ
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:04 pm ::: |
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| And yet there's plenty of PGs not in the league now. Teams tend to lean towards keeping a back-up PG/SG now instead of a true PG. Saniya Chong, Morgan William, Sydney Colson, Alexis Peterson...
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:04 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Who knows? I just know Kaela Davis is playing PG for Dallas right now and TRP has played some backup PG for DC...and both are less of PGs than Hartley is. One could argue that they each make Hartley look like John Stockton.
I'm watching the DC-Dallas game right now and the last two possessions for Dallas have been such that if they blow the lead and lose based on several mistakes by Davis on both ends...you could argue lack of a PG cost them the game.
And now that they lost, I am indeed going to make that argument. They should have won this game. And viable PG play would have won them each of their last two games. Had they done that they'd have been a half a game out of a third seed instead of a game and a half above eighth. |
I think with Chong they win both games.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:06 pm ::: |
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| That could well be true.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:07 pm ::: |
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| agree. they really miss Chong. Why is Romero even on the team if they can't play her when Skylar is out? And K. Davis as a PG is just a disaster. For that matter, Hill would be better but maybe she hasn't been there long enough to get all the plays.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:08 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Who knows? I just know Kaela Davis is playing PG for Dallas right now and TRP has played some backup PG for DC...and both are less of PGs than Hartley is. One could argue that they each make Hartley look like John Stockton.
I'm watching the DC-Dallas game right now and the last two possessions for Dallas have been such that if they blow the lead and lose based on several mistakes by Davis on both ends...you could argue lack of a PG cost them the game.
And now that they lost, I am indeed going to make that argument. They should have won this game. And viable PG play would have won them each of their last two games. Had they done that they'd have been a half a game out of a third seed instead of a game and a half above eighth. |
I think with Chong they win both games. |
It’s interesting to me that people here view Chong as a pure PG.
I’ve always liked her, but not what I would have said at UConn.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:14 pm ::: |
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| Does anyone even know whose phone to call if they want to make a deal with the Liberty at the moment? |
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:14 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Who knows? I just know Kaela Davis is playing PG for Dallas right now and TRP has played some backup PG for DC...and both are less of PGs than Hartley is. One could argue that they each make Hartley look like John Stockton.
I'm watching the DC-Dallas game right now and the last two possessions for Dallas have been such that if they blow the lead and lose based on several mistakes by Davis on both ends...you could argue lack of a PG cost them the game.
And now that they lost, I am indeed going to make that argument. They should have won this game. And viable PG play would have won them each of their last two games. Had they done that they'd have been a half a game out of a third seed instead of a game and a half above eighth. |
I think with Chong they win both games. |
It’s interesting to me that people here view Chong as a pure PG.
I’ve always liked her, but not what I would have said at UConn. |
I just think she would have done a better job than Davis.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 08/05/18 5:41 pm ::: |
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| I didn't think Chong was great. But better than Romero or Davis as a PG.
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if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 08/05/18 10:26 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Does anyone even know whose phone to call if they want to make a deal with the Liberty at the moment? |
This.
I think Zunes list of why the Liberty declined is accurate under normal circumstance but my list would be.
Uncertainty in the off season. Dolan was trying to sell the team, maybe there were buyers, maybe they're were not. One side affect not knowing who if anyone was in charge or cared or even had the capacity to make GM like moves.
Not being sold. In the end the Liberty were not sold, good news they didn't fold, bad news they still existed with ownership that didn't want them or give a crap what happened to them, still no actual GM.
While this was happening the good, stable, long term coach who was probably acting as a GM left, was replaced by assistant with no real coaching experience, who may have not even have known this was going to happen until a few months before the season, who didn't look like they had a plan and who may or may not have been involved with the very few personnel decisions that were made at the last minute.
Shipped out to Westchester. The team was sent from the most glamorous arena in the league to the most embarrassing arena in the league, went from 5000 fans plus to maybe 1500 on a good night, lost any home court advantage as they were just as new to the arena as any team they were going to play.
Finally the team was impacted by injuries and worse low morale. All of the above uncertainty had to be bad for working conditions, had to have negative impact on the players and when the losing started probably multiplied. I had hoped the adversity would have brought the team together and maybe it did on a personal of friendship level, but we've all seen that what was a decent if lacking high end talent team that still won a lot of close games quickly turned into a lack luster team that on the court showed very little heart. And I'm not surprised based on the above circumstances.
I hope we get new ownership who keeps the team in NY, and more importantly gives a crap. The lack of positive/active ownership and the uncertainty of the Liberty's future is truly the root of what ails the Liberty, and I don't see the team improving no matter what moves are made until this situation is solved.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/05/18 10:37 pm ::: |
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| Sounds spot on to me J-Spoon. None of those things are the coaches fault.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/05/18 10:51 pm ::: |
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I agree with all you've said, J-Spoon. You've offered an excellent analysis of many crucial factors that contributed to this miserable season.
Nevertheless, I'd add this: in my view, under terrible conditions, Katie Smith has not done a good job. There are many choices she's made that I don't agree with, but they're all arguable. Here's the one thing I can't accept. As NYL_WNBA_FAN has rightly pointed out with great disappointment and frustration, there have been quite a few times in recent weeks where the team simply hasn't played hard. In my view, that's on the players but it's also significantly on the coach. A crucial part of a coach's job is to GET the team to play hard when things are difficult. Katie Smith hasn't.
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Shades
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/06/18 6:28 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I agree with all you've said, J-Spoon. You've offered an excellent analysis of many crucial factors that contributed to this miserable season.
Nevertheless, I'd add this: in my view, under terrible conditions, Katie Smith has not done a good job. There are many choices she's made that I don't agree with, but they're all arguable. Here's the one thing I can't accept. As NYL_WNBA_FAN has rightly pointed out with great disappointment and frustration, there have been quite a few times in recent weeks where the team simply hasn't played hard. In my view, that's on the players but it's also significantly on the coach. A crucial part of a coach's job is to GET the team to play hard when things are difficult. Katie Smith hasn't. |
Katie Smith also told Megdal (High Post Hoops on Twitter) that the Libs are an undisciplined ball club that needs to play consistently all 40 minutes. Uhhh, what??!! We can argue the merits of the talent on the team but they won 22 games with talent more modest than a few teams behind them last year. Now you’re saying the same team is undisciplined after 27 games? Get outta here. That’s on YOU. Own it.
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