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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 4:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
There are also other factors in trades that can't be seen from the outside. Some players bring more to the table than games show, and some bring less. For example, a very good player who doesn't work hard in practice will make it hard to get everyone to work hard, so maybe a coach is more willing to trade her.

Or a player and coach just don't get along, or a player and the star work well together.

Lots of variables ...


Yes. Exactly right. And many or all the same issues apply to signing or not signing free agents and to drafting or not drafting players.

It's the same issue for me as when fans issue definitive pronouncements about what a player "is like" personally based on perceptions from afar or very limited interactions with the player.


So true ...

Sportswriters also get a very crafted version of a person, especially older, intelligent players. The interactions are brief and structured.

Even a long-form piece based on a couple interviews doesn't necessarily tell the writer or reader that much. It's not that hard to put on a show for a couple hours.

I would maintain, though, that a great way to really know what a player (or anyone) is like is to play competitive pickup basketball with them a few times. It's pretty hard to hide in that situation.

To sum up: There's a physical side to every team/group, and there's a psychological side, and both are important to maximize the chances of success.


I've done a lot of published interviews, with both people who were celebrities and people who weren't. An interview can be very revealing. And sometimes even a politician, actor, or athlete accustomed to being in the public eye will go off their polished script and show their true colors. But sometimes they'll just offer a glossy image far from the truth.

As for playing basketball or any competitive sport with someone... yes, that person can't just hide behind their image. There are surely things you'll learn about that individual. But seeing how someone interacts while playing a competitive sport may mean absolutely nothing in terms of how they handle other types of dealings with people.

Suppose, for example, that you're in a competitive pickup game with a young male basketball player who's in the closet and is terrified that people will find out. That terror can seriously impact his relationships with teammates and coaches in a negative way. Will you be able to figure that out in the pickup games? I don't think so.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding Stokes and potential trade value, just a few thoughts. First off, trading her would still have a measurably adverse impact on the Liberty defensively. If you trade her you better get an awfully good offensive player in return to make up for it, as the Liberty are obviously built from a defensive framework. That's not to say Stokes has gigantic trade value. I'm not saying that at all. But are any of you really comfortable with a C combo of Vaughn and Zahui along with a potential draft choice? I'm not. Nor would I be comfortable with Swords as a replacement who's expected to fill a bigger role than she is capable of. Yes, she's a nice role player. But did we forget how atrocious the Liberty were defensively after the 2016 Olympic break without Stokes and Wright? In the right role, Swords would be an ok role player for the Libs, but let's not make her into something she isn't.

Secondly, in regard to potential trade value, it's not hard to remember that Swords and Montgomery were each traded for mid-to-late first round picks. I was surprised both times. While this is regarded as a better draft, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if somebody saw enough upside in Stokes to make a move for her either.

This is not an endorsement for trading Stokes, nor is it an overly optimistic portrayal of her trade value. It's just to say that even after a somewhat disappointing season, she's still not someone the Liberty can simply replace. And if you replace her with a post in this year's draft as a one-on-one type of deal, that might give you a more well-rounded player, but you're otherwise left with some of the same needs you started with. Without the guarantee that on your defense-first team you'll have the same quality of defense you had before.

To me, the player you can more easily afford to trade...and who'll have value to at least a handful of teams...is Rodgers. I think we saw her struggle this year primarily because the Liberty didn't have guards who could break down defenses efficiently and help Sugar get open shots. I think that her struggles then snowballed as she was forced to create more of her own offense than as a team you'd really want. Yes, SG is a loaded position around the league. But I think given her speed, open shooting ability and lights-out defense (most of the time) you'll be able to find a trade partner somewhere. The Piph-Rodgers combo needs to be broken up. It probably needed to be broken up after 2016 (which is not something I am saying in hindsight) when Sugar had more value. But she still has attributes...and the work ethic...that teams will want. And she doesn't have a ton of mileage (limited starts and overseas play) on a 27-year-old body. She may still have some upside to improve some things that the average 27-year-old would not. I would like to keep her in an ideal world because I like her from a personal standpoint and we'd miss her speed and defense. But keeping her on a team with so many two-guards honestly makes no sense at all. Especially when as a team we have two very clear needs. Fill them both in the offseason and you have a chance to be better in 2018.

Finally, watching the game 1s (missed the game 2s) it's an easy reminder to see how important as a team it is to get easy baskets.. Minny and LA do that better than anyone. We will never know how much losing Boyd hurt the Libs' ability to do that this year. But what we do know is in Sunday's one-and-done, once Z got hurt, there was nobody to break down DC's defense one-on-one. It shows how vulnerable as a team you are when less-than-major ailments (Charles, Zellous) have such a negative impact on your team's offense in an elimination game. That's NOT an excuse. The fact is that if Charles had back spasm flare-ups, that's clearly a by-product of how much she carried our team in the post over the second half. If Z was slowed to a crawl after taking that first-half spill, it's similarly noteworthy that no other perimeter players were able to break down the DC defense at all in the second half. This is where getting bigger on the wing and longer in the post might have ancillary benefits. You wouldn't have to lean as heavily on Charles and you might have an alternative to a hobbled Zellous having to deal with a 7-inch height advantage on both ends. I stress that's not an excuse. But it points to the same thing as last year in the sense that we do not have the individual talent to overcome cracks in our depth. We know (assuming that some random star player doesn't demand a trade to NY) adding a star player isn't going to happen with our draft position and what we have available to trade. So the next best thing we can do is add versatility and matchup flexibility where we can and hope that Boyd's return gives us an infusion of speed and creativity in addition to that. Her long-term health being a prerequisite in that equation.

At the end of the day I think you gotta give Bill credit. Without Boyd and given Stokes and Zahui's lack of readiness to start the season, was this really a 22-win team in terms of talent? Vaughn and Hartley were DC backups and relatively fringe players for them. Z was a Liberty backup last year...though I'd give her credit for being a solid starter. Piph tore her ACL last year and didn't really get back to being herself until the last two weeks of the season. So you're looking a lineup of Tina, 3 backups from last year, and a player coming off of a torn ACL. Add to that a lack of stability at the most important position on the floor until 2/3 of the way through the season.

Given all that, with one more win over LA along with wins over Chicago and SAS in the games we lost to those two teams and we would have been a 2 seed. Stabilize the PG position and create better physical matchups and I'd think you're looking good next year. While we have players moving toward the end of their prime, Minnesota is even more in that area and LA is pretty close to it too. So...with the right moves....



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not against trading Stokes, but I believe NYL_WNBA_FAN is right that going with Vaughn and Zahui B--or Swords, Vaughn, and Zahui B--would be a disaster. Stokes can only be traded if some new center is added who's strong defensively. And that player won't be easy to find. Consequently, I suspect New York will have to keep Stokes and hope that she shows the improvement next season that I hoped she'd show this season.

I feel that Liberty fans are way too optimistic about Boyd. I certainly hope I'm proven wrong. I'm not focusing on her health. I hope she is absolutely fine by training camp. But I view Boyd as a player with some dramatic talents and some significant weaknesses who's been very inconsistent. Can she put it all together in 2018? Maybe. But no one should count on that.

I am a great admirer of Bill Laimbeer. And I feel New York's roster had and has many weaknesses, more than one might expect of a 22-12 team. Still, the fact is that for three consecutive seasons the Liberty have done very well in the regular season and have seriously flopped in the playoffs. That's on the players, but that's also on the coaches. One season ending like that can always be explained away in various ways. But THREE seasons ending as they have.... To me, that's quite serious.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.


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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UK1996 wrote:
One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.


just not as our starting PG. Rodgers gets traded and Hartley is then the back-up SG and third option for PG.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UK1996 wrote:
One thing to note is Bria Hartley just had a baby 8 months ago. She may have a lot better season further removed from pregnancy.


It's just that she doesn't have the vision to play PG at the level it should be played. The number of times she missed open players on the wing in transition was staggering.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 7:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.


My point just is the Liberty are a team that's much better equipped to play a best of 5 than they are to play one game. That's why being close to a 2 seed with a non-PG starting in that position is important. If they have a full complement of players, they can do what Bill wanted to do when the season started, which is wear opponents down with depth. The 10-game winning streak wasn't borne so much out of outstanding Liberty talent. It was borne from a team doing what was done to them earlier in the season, taking advantage of a favorable schedule. In the process, they wore teams down physically by punishing them in the paint. That works when attrition is a factor. In a one-game scenario that doesn't work so well. Especially when the player you're using to punish the opponents is not able to do it because she's hurting. The point about the 2 seed is not so much about how good NY is. It's more about getting to the best-of-5 scenario that NY is clearly better built for. Since it wasn't that far away, can we do things in the offseason to get there?

There's been much talk of needing a second star. While that would be great, it isn't happening unless NY gets really lucky. DC beat us with only one star. I don't think my view right now is all that rosy, being that I am acknowledging their weaknesses. They're the third best team in the league. They have two very discernible weaknesses, which I'm clearly saying need to be addressed. Is it an earth-shattering statement to say that addressing your weaknesses is the right way to improve? It strikes me to be the only way to do it. Minnesota is built around three players aged 30+. LA's most versatile player is 31 years old and the DPOY is 35. Sooner or later the window is going to be there. For NY, they need to make it sooner while their top players are still in their prime.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
For me, it's not so much that I'm optimistic about Boyd. Honestly we have no idea what she's capable of if she's given starter's minutes. I just think she would have been another viable alternative to Hartley playing so much PG in a situation where she really wasn't one. Add in that she's at minimum an excellent change of pace who has the speed to break down defenses...just five minutes of that in the third quarter Sunday might have prevented us from being blown out.

I do think that Boyd at minimum this year was prepared to give us what she did in 2015. The type of energy, speed, aggressiveness and ability to get to the foul line that helped her singularly win us a handful of games in the fourth quarter in that season. I'd have taken that this year. Along with the idea that at least she actually is a PG. Hartley couldn't create for Sugar at all. Boyd would have been able to from time-to-time.

The one-and-done is geared toward teams with players who can create outside shots. It's just like the NCAA tournament. A majority of upsets result in strong or weak perimeter play. I don't think it's so much a coaching thing as it is that if we aren't going to be a top-2 seed, we need players who are going to be a better fit for one-and-dones. It's also important to note that we didn't have Boyd in 2015 when she was actually productive down the stretch of certain games. Nor did we have her in 2017 when she appeared on the verge of a breakout. If a player has the ability to get to the foul line 8 times in a quarter, that can also be a huge momentum factor in an elimination situation.


I wasn't particularly referring to you when I discussed Boyd. Others have been even more optimistic and have penciled her in as our starting point guard.

I am, however, a bit stunned that you are talking right now about how the Liberty came close to being the #2 seed. They did, it's true. So what? This is a team that has been 2-4 in home playoff games over three seasons, including losing two do-or-die games at home, in all years against teams with lesser records.

I felt all through this latest season that your view of the team was way too rosy. Then they won 10 in a row. I concluded that you were right and I was wrong. And then came Washington. Now I again believe that your evaluation of our roster is way too rosy.


My point just is the Liberty are a team that's much better equipped to play a best of 5 than they are to play one game. That's why being close to a 2 seed with a non-PG starting in that position is important. If they have a full complement of players, they can do what Bill wanted to do when the season started, which is wear opponents down with depth. The 10-game winning streak wasn't borne so much out of outstanding Liberty talent. It was borne from a team doing what was done to them earlier in the season, taking advantage of a favorable schedule. In the process, they wore teams down physically by punishing them in the paint. That works when attrition is a factor. In a one-game scenario that doesn't work so well. Especially when the player you're using to punish the opponents is not able to do it because she's hurting. The point about the 2 seed is not so much about how good NY is. It's more about getting to the best-of-5 scenario that NY is clearly better built for. Since it wasn't that far away, can we do things in the offseason to get there?

There's been much talk of needing a second star. While that would be great, it isn't happening unless NY gets really lucky. DC beat us with only one star. I don't think my view right now is all that rosy, being that I am acknowledging their weaknesses. They're the third best team in the league. They have two very discernible weaknesses, which I'm clearly saying need to be addressed. Is it an earth-shattering statement to say that addressing your weaknesses is the right way to improve? It strikes me to be the only way to do it. Minnesota is built around three players aged 30+. LA's most versatile player is 31 years old and the DPOY is 35. Sooner or later the window is going to be there. For NY, they need to make it sooner while their top players are still in their prime.


We will just have to disagree. For me, your statement that "they're the third best team in the league" is way off. A team that over three consecutive seasons is 3-5 in the playoffs and 2-4 in playoff games at home isn't the third best team in the league. Not even close. At best, it's a team that is maybe, maybe, the third best team in the league in the regular season but has a huge problem coming through in the playoffs.

And it's not just a matter of particular problems in do-or-die games. Two seasons ago, the Liberty had the best record in the league in the regular season, played a very shaky series against a Washington team that wasn't as good, barely beat them, then played a very shaky series against an Indiana team that wasn't as good, and was eliminated.

If you're the third best team in the league, you find a way to win home playoff games against lesser teams. Including do-or-die games. You find a way to win them. Period.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 11:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
DC beat us with only one star.


The player that scored 32 pts?



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)


Because she's a three-point shooter who can create her own shot from anywhere on the floor, something the Libs don't have. It makes them vulnerable in one and dones and it would certainly help to get a player who can do it. After that the Libs' most creative player in a one-on-one situation had a torn Achilles. 14 seeds beat 3 seeds in the NCAA tournament sometimes. 12s beat 5s with regularity. Had Minnesota or LA been subject to this, on a given day they could be vulnerable too. It's a one-game sample. And going back to 2015 the player who really could have gotten provided the one-on-one spark they needed missed two of the 3 games.

Losing one game doesn't mean that they're any less "good". It just means you need players who can get you better through these games. The fact that it's happened 3 times doesn't change that for me. In 2015 they weren't too talented. Last year the whole team was hurt. This year stings because we had more talent. But all it means is we have to get more.

And I'm lost on one thing. What's your higher point? That we have no chance to improve? Should we give up? I'm not ignoring what happened but this thread is about 2018. Do you think we can't have improvement? Or that no matter what improvements, it won't matter?



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
DC beat us with only one star.


The player that scored 32 pts?


Well no, lol. I'm just making the point that Piph had a very similar season to Toliver. But Toliver def is a better player to have in a one-and-done probably.



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RP



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
#BringBackSwords


Bring back Swords and send Stokes to the Mystics. It's a plan!


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 2:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
And let me add one last thing.

Playing on the road, Washington beat the Liberty even though their only star had at best an OK game, their second best player had a horrible game, but their third best player went off for 32 points.

Why is it that something like that never seems to happen for the Liberty in an elimination game? Is Kristi Tolliver that much better than every Liberty player over three seasons other than Tina Charles? Tolliver came up huge in a crucial game. I like and admire our players, but they just haven't done that when it counts the most. (And I don't just mean 32 points. Perhaps a 15-rebound game. Perhaps a 10-assist game. Perhaps a huge defensive performance that's crucial.)


Because she's a three-point shooter who can create her own shot from anywhere on the floor, something the Libs don't have. It makes them vulnerable in one and dones and it would certainly help to get a player who can do it. After that the Libs' most creative player in a one-on-one situation had a torn Achilles. 14 seeds beat 3 seeds in the NCAA tournament sometimes. 12s beat 5s with regularity. Had Minnesota or LA been subject to this, on a given day they could be vulnerable too. It's a one-game sample. And going back to 2015 the player who really could have gotten provided the one-on-one spark they needed missed two of the 3 games.

Losing one game doesn't mean that they're any less "good". It just means you need players who can get you better through these games. The fact that it's happened 3 times doesn't change that for me. In 2015 they weren't too talented. Last year the whole team was hurt. This year stings because we had more talent. But all it means is we have to get more.

And I'm lost on one thing. What's your higher point? That we have no chance to improve? Should we give up? I'm not ignoring what happened but this thread is about 2018. Do you think we can't have improvement? Or that no matter what improvements, it won't matter?


Since you apparently need me to be as explicit as possible, here goes:

1. The team has a chance to improve in 2018.
2. No one should give up.
3. The Liberty CAN have improvement.
4. If there are improvements, it will matter.
5. Your view of our roster, in my opinion, continues to be too rosy.
6. Your rationalizations for the team's disappointing playoff performances in 2015, 2016, and 2017 seem to me completely unconvincing.


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll also be as explicit as possible.

-My view of the past 3 seasons is now entirely tied to 2018. I have no interest in 2015-17 other than using them as benchmarks for the improvement we need in the future. Anything I've posted has been entirely geared toward that. Why you keep talking about disappointing losses the last three years confuses me along those lines. I'm not trying to rationalize losses. I'm using those losses to rationalize why the future might be better...i.e...acknowledging our weaknesses. We're talking about two different things.
-The Liberty are tied with LA for the second-best overall record in the WNBA the last three seasons.
-You said yourself you thought the Liberty were better than D.C. and you've acknowledged the past two seasons the Libs outperformed their talent. Now all of a sudden it's shocking they lost playoff games in the last two seasons and saying they're the third best team in the league is earth-shattering due to one bad game?
-I'm a math person. I do sample sizes. I'll take the one we've established over 102 regular season games rather than the playoff sample size, while acknowledging we need to upgrade certain areas to be more playoff ready.
-You haven't refuted anything I've said. All you've said is my view is too rosy and my remarks are unconvincing. I watch the league play. The Liberty are good relative to all but a few teams. The next step is to try to be better.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'll also be as explicit as possible.

-My view of the past 3 seasons is now entirely tied to 2018. I have no interest in 2015-17 other than using them as benchmarks for the improvement we need in the future. Anything I've posted has been entirely geared toward that. Why you keep talking about disappointing losses the last three years confuses me along those lines. I'm not trying to rationalize losses. I'm using those losses to rationalize why the future might be better...i.e...acknowledging our weaknesses. We're talking about two different things.
-The Liberty are tied with LA for the second-best overall record in the WNBA the last three seasons.
-You said yourself you thought the Liberty were better than D.C. and you've acknowledged the past two seasons the Libs outperformed their talent. Now all of a sudden it's shocking they lost playoff games in the last two seasons and saying they're the third best team in the league is earth-shattering due to one bad game?
-I'm a math person. I do sample sizes. I'll take the one we've established over 102 regular season games rather than the playoff sample size, while acknowledging we need to upgrade certain areas to be more playoff ready.
-You haven't refuted anything I've said. All you've said is my view is too rosy and my remarks are unconvincing. I watch the league play. The Liberty are good relative to all but a few teams. The next step is to try to be better.


I can't "refute" your statement that we have the third-best team in the WNBA, just as you can't prove it. The wins and losses in the regular seasons are a fact, just like the wins and losses in the playoffs. Your opinion is that we have the third best team in the league. Fine. I wouldn't want to say that tomorrow to fans of the Mystics. They'd laugh and I would, too, if I were in their position.

I thought New York was a better team than Washington. That's absolutely true. I'm now saying that I was wrong. Not the first of my misjudgments and surely not the last.

Finally, for me it is indeed "shocking" that the Liberty have failed so miserably in the playoffs three years in a row. Is it "earth-shattering" to assert, as you have, that New York is the third-best team in the league? No, it's definitely not earth-shattering. But I, one lone person, think you're wrong.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fair enough. For me now the question is can we improve enough to be top 2 in 2018? I'd much rather try our luck, especially with an inside-oriented team, in a best-of-5. One thing we probably agree on is that if we have a window of opportunity to do that, it probably isn't going to be for that much longer given the age and wear and tear on our top players.

One thing that Bill did in Detroit was acquire Katie Smith when the Shock needed one more player to get over the hump. Right now, I don't see that type of player being available on a rebuilding team for the price that was paid to get her. One of the complications in today's WNBA to trading for these types of pieces is that none of the bottom-half teams have a difference-making vet that might be available for a less-than-exorbitant price.

And the top teams are the ones with those kinds of players (Beard, Augustus). They're not going anywhere.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Fair enough. For me now the question is can we improve enough to be top 2 in 2018? I'd much rather try our luck, especially with an inside-oriented team, in a best-of-5. One thing we probably agree on is that if we have a window of opportunity to do that, it probably isn't going to be for that much longer given the age and wear and tear on our top players.

One thing that Bill did in Detroit was acquire Katie Smith when the Shock needed one more player to get over the hump. Right now, I don't see that type of player being available on a rebuilding team for the price that was paid to get her. One of the complications in today's WNBA to trading for these types of pieces is that none of the bottom-half teams have a difference-making vet that might be available for a less-than-exorbitant price.

And the top teams are the ones with those kinds of players (Beard, Augustus). They're not going anywhere.


I certainly agree with you about the team's window of opportunity. As you've rightly said, it doesn't look easy to trade for that "one more player to get us over the hump." Without any clear answers in sight, I'm going to hope for a dream that only happens once in a while: that some significant player forces a trade. As Tina Charles did, as Elena Delle Donne did more recently.

Tina Charles seems to me, based on just glimpses of her in press conferences and video interviews, to be a persuasive person. So I'm going to hope that she can convincingly say to the right player: "Come and join me in New York!"


toad455



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 4:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 5:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 5:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm delighted that some people like my idea. Now all that needs to happen is that Tina picks the right star and that star says "yes."

Oh, yeh, there's that little matter of forcing the trade. But Tina can give really helpful advice on how to do that. And they can always consult Elena Delle Donne if more recent advice seems valuable. Smile


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PostPosted: 09/16/17 6:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


You must not have listened to Fowles' MVP speech.



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PostPosted: 09/16/17 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
I definitely think Tina needs to say to "player x", "Come to New York and we'll win a title together." Angel? Loyd? Bonner? Cambage? Vandersloot?


Sylvia Fowles. She needs to move before Whalen, Brunson and Augustus decline too much.


That's backwards. The Liberty need to win a title and THEN Fowles will request a trade there Laughing


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