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justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/03/18 12:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink



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PostPosted: 03/03/18 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/03/18 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes

Okay? That doesn't factor in too?

Is anyone seriously arguing that Cambage is the best player in the world? That is nonsense. She's not even the best center...



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PostPosted: 03/03/18 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes


Absolutely untrue. If you'd followed the WNBL you'd have seen that Batkovic richly deserved her MVP. You might want to get a thicker skin about people criticizing your team's players because blind defense of them without credible data just makes you look knee-jerk instead of knowledgeable.


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PostPosted: 03/03/18 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Marginal WNBA players are frequently candidates for WNBL MVP.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 1:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Marginal WNBA players are frequently candidates for WNBL MVP.


They frequently win WNBL MVP. MVP's Rachel Sporn, Michelle Griffiths, Trish Fallon, Katrina Hibbert (twice), Kristi Harrower, Suzy Batcovic (6 times) and Abby Bishop all played in the WNBA at less than all-star level.

Regarding Cambage, put her on a stacked WNBA team that wins a championship and fans will move her way up in ability ranking and start doing backflips for her too.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 2:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Marginal WNBA players are frequently candidates for WNBL MVP.


They frequently win WNBL MVP. MVP's Rachel Sporn, Michelle Griffiths, Trish Fallon, Katrina Hibbert (twice), Kristi Harrower, Suzy Batcovic (6 times) and Abby Bishop all played in the WNBA at less than all-star level.

Regarding Cambage, put her on a stacked WNBA team that wins a championship and fans will move her way up in ability ranking and start doing backflips for her too.

So it should be clear that someone who doesn't win the WNBL MVP is pretty much out of the running for "best player in the world" if the MVPs are only marginal WNBA players.

I mean this has seriously gotten out of hand. The entire point was that the Wing's CEO is hitting the kool-aid a little to hard and is saying laughably ridiculous things in the media.

As to Cambage's ability rankings if she started winning WNBA championships, it would depend on how significant of a role she played. If she were just carried along by all-WNBA teammates her "ranking" would not change. If she played high end basketball and was a major reason her team won, she would move up. It's not really that complicated.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Marginal WNBA players are frequently candidates for WNBL MVP.


They frequently win WNBL MVP. MVP's Rachel Sporn, Michelle Griffiths, Trish Fallon, Katrina Hibbert (twice), Kristi Harrower, Suzy Batcovic (6 times) and Abby Bishop all played in the WNBA at less than all-star level.


So it should be clear that someone who doesn't win the WNBL MVP is pretty much out of the running for "best player in the world" if the MVPs are only marginal WNBA players.


Cambage has only played in the WNBL one year as a non-teenager. That was this year. She averaged 23.13 points, 10.54 rebounds, 1.79 assists, 0.75 steals, 1.46 blocks and 2.92 turnovers a game this year. For the league MVP the numbers were [20.38, 10.54, 2.65, 1.46, 1.12, 3.08]. Cambage won in points and blocks, while Batcovic won in assist/turnover ratio (most assists and most turnovers) and steals. And they tied in rebounds. So you could make a case that they didn't give it to Cambage because of her flagrant fouling, not because she wasn't league MVP.

Quote:

I mean this has seriously gotten out of hand. The entire point was that the Wing's CEO is hitting the kool-aid a little to hard and is saying laughably ridiculous things in the media.


Why are you so passionate about the issue? Are you taking it as a slight for Maya Moore?

Quote:
Quote:

Regarding Cambage, put her on a stacked WNBA team that wins a championship and fans will move her way up in ability ranking and start doing backflips for her too.


As to Cambage's ability rankings if she started winning WNBA championships, it would depend on how significant of a role she played. If she were just carried along by all-WNBA teammates her "ranking" would not change. If she played high end basketball and was a major reason her team won, she would move up. It's not really that complicated.


She got 16.3 points a game and 8.3 rebounds a game on a team that was 11-23. Barring injury, I think it is likely she would do something like that on a championship team at the age of 26 instead of the 21 she was in 2013. And doing that as a starter on a championship team and in the finals should give her the fan-mindset-boost that players on those teams get.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Marginal WNBA players are frequently candidates for WNBL MVP.


They frequently win WNBL MVP. MVP's Rachel Sporn, Michelle Griffiths, Trish Fallon, Katrina Hibbert (twice), Kristi Harrower, Suzy Batcovic (6 times) and Abby Bishop all played in the WNBA at less than all-star level.


So it should be clear that someone who doesn't win the WNBL MVP is pretty much out of the running for "best player in the world" if the MVPs are only marginal WNBA players.


Cambage has only played in the WNBL one year as a non-teenager. That was this year. She averaged 23.13 points, 10.54 rebounds, 1.79 assists, 0.75 steals, 1.46 blocks and 2.92 turnovers a game this year. For the league MVP the numbers were [20.38, 10.54, 2.65, 1.46, 1.12, 3.08]. Cambage won in points and blocks, while Batcovic won in assist/turnover ratio (most assists and most turnovers) and steals. And they tied in rebounds. So you could make a case that they didn't give it to Cambage because of her flagrant fouling, not because she wasn't league MVP.

Quote:

I mean this has seriously gotten out of hand. The entire point was that the Wing's CEO is hitting the kool-aid a little to hard and is saying laughably ridiculous things in the media.


Why are you so passionate about the issue? Are you taking it as a slight for Maya Moore?

Quote:
Quote:

Regarding Cambage, put her on a stacked WNBA team that wins a championship and fans will move her way up in ability ranking and start doing backflips for her too.


As to Cambage's ability rankings if she started winning WNBA championships, it would depend on how significant of a role she played. If she were just carried along by all-WNBA teammates her "ranking" would not change. If she played high end basketball and was a major reason her team won, she would move up. It's not really that complicated.


She got 16.3 points a game and 8.3 rebounds a game on a team that was 11-23. Barring injury, I think it is likely she would do something like that on a championship team at the age of 26 instead of the 21 she was in 2013. And doing that as a starter on a championship team and in the finals should give her the fan-mindset-boost that players on those teams get.

Seriously. WTF.

I swear some of you people are unhinged. This entire thing has devolved into stupidity. For instance, what does Maya have to do with any of this? Hell, I'm not entirely sure what the WNBL has to do with it.

All I did was share an article in which the Wings' CEO made an outlandish claim that no reasonable person with half a brain would find accurate. It was meant to be funny because team executives like to do things like this.

But somehow this turned into some weird argument about WNBL stats and strange hypotheticals, none of which means anything at all...

So let me just start and stop with the simple statement that any claim of Cambage being "the best player in the world" is out of touch with reality, and the person making that claim deserves to be laughed at for it.



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 4:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

#1 scorer at the most recent Olympics though Razz



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 8:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
#1 scorer at the most recent Olympics though Razz


yup. mostly due to a 37 pt. performance against Japan. She wore Tokashiki down and scored 18 points in the final quarter.


miller40



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 11:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes

Okay? That doesn't factor in too?

Is anyone seriously arguing that Cambage is the best player in the world? That is nonsense. She's not even the best center...

Were you seriously arguing Batkovic is the better player? That is nonsense too.

Cambage really brings out the nonsense, herself and everyone else included.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes

Okay? That doesn't factor in too?

Is anyone seriously arguing that Cambage is the best player in the world? That is nonsense. She's not even the best center...

Were you seriously arguing Batkovic is the better player? That is nonsense too.

Cambage really brings out the nonsense, herself and everyone else included.


______X



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 12:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes

Okay? That doesn't factor in too?

Is anyone seriously arguing that Cambage is the best player in the world? That is nonsense. She's not even the best center...

Were you seriously arguing Batkovic is the better player? That is nonsense too.

Cambage really brings out the nonsense, herself and everyone else included.

I was noting that Batkovic had a better season in the WNBL. Which isn't nonsense, since she won the MVP.

Again, my only position I have taken here regarding Cambage is that her new CEO said a ridiculous and funny thing. I had that article with that headline show up in my news feed, laughed about it, and figured others would get a good chuckle about it too. Somehow that has turned into a shitshow of borderline insanity and way too many posts on the subject.



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
miller40 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?

Well, that tells me that her game is likely to translate to the WNBA better than any other player. But it's hard to argue she has played the best in the WNBL when someone else keeps pulling down the MVPs. Not to mention I might be more interested in Torrens on a pure skill level.

As for pilight's "arguably" point, that would be like me saying "arguably, 2+2=5" and when someone points out that I'm pretty much an idiot I say "well, you've proved my point because we are arguing about it..." Wink


Pretty sure she did not win MVP because of her behavior and the suspensions. Rolling Eyes

Okay? That doesn't factor in too?

Is anyone seriously arguing that Cambage is the best player in the world? That is nonsense. She's not even the best center...

Were you seriously arguing Batkovic is the better player? That is nonsense too.

Cambage really brings out the nonsense, herself and everyone else included.

I was noting that Batkovic had a better season in the WNBL. Which isn't nonsense, since she won the MVP.

Again, my only position I have taken here regarding Cambage is that her new CEO said a ridiculous and funny thing. I had that article with that headline show up in my news feed, laughed about it, and figured others would get a good chuckle about it too. Somehow that has turned into a shitshow of borderline insanity and way too many posts on the subject.


Chuckle Now Cry Later Laughing



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?


Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...

I agree with justintyme that Bibb's statement was, well, arguable. Cambage has great potential to really help the Wings but none of her seasons here or overseas have been dominant. Yes, she led the WNBL in points and rebounds. But, that was going up against Batkovic, Jennifer Hamson, Abby Bishop, Kelsey Griffin, Cayla George, Kayla Pedersen, etc. It's a new season so it's another chance for her to prove she is a force.


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PostPosted: 03/04/18 5:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?


Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...



Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor).


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PostPosted: 03/04/18 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ten years ago I'd say Jackson, Stepanova, Penicheiro, Penny Taylor & Mwadi Mabika.



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PostPosted: 03/04/18 8:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?


Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...



Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor).


Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be.



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PostPosted: 03/05/18 12:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?


Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...



Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor).


Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be.


He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels.


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PostPosted: 03/05/18 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Randy wrote:
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.

Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world?


Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...



Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor).


Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be.


He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels.


And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may.



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 2:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

Seriously. WTF.

I swear some of you people are unhinged. This entire thing has devolved into stupidity. For instance, what does Maya have to do with any of this? Hell, I'm not entirely sure what the WNBL has to do with it.


I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that there must be a Lynx connection to get you that worked up.

Quote:

All I did was share an article in which the Wings' CEO made an outlandish claim that no reasonable person with half a brain would find accurate. It was meant to be funny because team executives like to do things like this.


Yeah, it was made as a marketing statement and a I think he exaggerated, but I don't see it as a huge stretch and he has the unknown on his side since she hasn't played in the WNBA since 2013 when she was 21/22 (what would be a college player's rookie WNBA year) and was 16.3ppg/8.3 rpg in 25 minutes on a bad team. And she's never played in the European leagues where the WNBA elite congregates for big bucks. So there are questions. How will she handle - now as an older and sturdier player with a better team - a more brutish defense as they strut, shove and stomp, bark and howl? And of course, the other ten teams besides the defending champs also present much greater challenges than she faced in China and the WNBL.


Quote:
But somehow this turned into some weird argument about WNBL stats and strange hypotheticals, none of which means anything at all...


What does mean something - what league and what year should be be looking at to judge her current ability? She did well in this July 2016 game against team USA:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Sy2SRn9mY3A" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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PostPosted: 03/06/18 3:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've just kind of sat back and enjoyed both sides of that argument/whatever it actually was.
The beauty of Liz is that she's quite likely to keep her fans happy this season, while also keeping her haters happy too. She's got a knack for that. An infuriating combination of physical ability and mentality. A mixture of supreme potential and regular WTF.

But if we're being real, then every play of every year of her career provides enough evidence that she's not the best player in the world. And actually I think it's kind of dumb of Bibb to put that out there. I don't think that type of bs ego-stroking is what makes Liz tick. In fact it's more likely to bring out her negatives IMO. The way I have seen her career, she has never truly wanted to be or aspired to be the best. She doesn't want that type of pressure or expectation, she just wants to be a part of a successful team.
Maybe I'm just not tuned into the American way of doing things, but surely a CEO over-promising to their fans/members is silly too. You do that and it just damages your credibility, and for what gain? I don't think stunts are the way to build the fanbase. Liz is good value off the court, so get her face out there. More importantly, get some wins and people will come.



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 3:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:

Yeah, it was made as a marketing statement and a I think he exaggerated, but I don't see it as a huge stretch

Not a huge stretch? "Exaggerated" is an immense understatement.

He said she was the best player in the world. That is insane (note that he was not saying she was the best international player, but that she was better than everyone currently playing in the WNBA as well). Cambage is nowhere close to that. Which is why his statement was so funny. It was one of those crazy team executive statements that they so love to make and which are so fun to laugh at.

Maybe Cambage comes back and sets the league on fire and actually earns a right to such a claim, but making that claim based on what we have seen so far is out of touch with reality. What we do know is that she should be a huge addition to the Wings and will make them a much better team.



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PostPosted: 03/06/18 3:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If I was him I would have gone with "one of the top 10 players in the world". I think that wouldn't be an unfair claim - even if it's still highly debatable - and it still sounds impressive.

(My personal take: "Arguably the best player in the world" could be said by someone about Fowles, Parker, EDD, Charles, Maya & BG without my eyebrows needing to elevate. And that still leaves out some mighty good players who I'd list in front of Liz, Like Angel, Nneka, Stewie, ...)



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