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What is your marital status?
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What is your marital status?
Never married
51%
 51%  [ 35 ]
Married - traditional
25%
 25%  [ 17 ]
Married - same sex
17%
 17%  [ 12 ]
Divorced
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Widowed
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 68

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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8151
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PostPosted: 08/31/17 2:56 pm    ::: What is your marital status? Reply Reply with quote

Only official marriages count, not live-together relationships even if long.

This is the second in my site demographic polls. The age poll drew 91 responses and was informative.

I'll put pointer threads in the WNBA and College forums.
Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/31/17 3:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 08/31/17 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".


Okay, "traditional" marriage was intended to mean that your legal spouse is of the opposite biological sex. I thought that was obvious terminology, in contrast to a "same sex" marriage, but I hope this clarifies it. (I can't edit the poll choices now.)
myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32326



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PostPosted: 08/31/17 3:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Only official marriages count, not live-together relationships even if long.

Why?
I would think the poll needs 'not married but living together' as an option. I've been doing that for 25 years. So I don't really relate to any of these options.



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sigur3



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: 08/31/17 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

single as fuck


CourtsideTix



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 4565
Location: Washington, DC


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 5:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Queenie wrote:
I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".


Okay, "traditional" marriage was intended to mean that your legal spouse is of the opposite biological sex. I thought that was obvious terminology, in contrast to a "same sex" marriage, but I hope this clarifies it. (I can't edit the poll choices now.)


"Traditional marriage" is an offensive term frequently used by those opposed to marriage equality to demean same-sex couples. Dog whistle.


StevenHW



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 10979
Location: Sacramento, California


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CourtsideTix wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Queenie wrote:
I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".


Okay, "traditional" marriage was intended to mean that your legal spouse is of the opposite biological sex. I thought that was obvious terminology, in contrast to a "same sex" marriage, but I hope this clarifies it. (I can't edit the poll choices now.)


"Traditional marriage" is an offensive term frequently used by those opposed to marriage equality to demean same-sex couples. Dog whistle.


Not to mention those who are in polygamous marriages (such as traditional Mormons). They might consider themselves as being in a "traditional" marriage.

Then there's also polyamorous couples, who are faithfully married to each other, but consenting to have sex partners with others, with each other's knowledge and consent. That is, "swingers".



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Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/31/17 5:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Never married. Hating bachelorhood.



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Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18013
Location: Queens


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 6:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

StevenHW wrote:
CourtsideTix wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Queenie wrote:
I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".


Okay, "traditional" marriage was intended to mean that your legal spouse is of the opposite biological sex. I thought that was obvious terminology, in contrast to a "same sex" marriage, but I hope this clarifies it. (I can't edit the poll choices now.)


"Traditional marriage" is an offensive term frequently used by those opposed to marriage equality to demean same-sex couples. Dog whistle.


Not to mention those who are in polygamous marriages (such as traditional Mormons). They might consider themselves as being in a "traditional" marriage.

Then there's also polyamorous couples, who are faithfully married to each other, but consenting to have sex partners with others, with each other's knowledge and consent. That is, "swingers".


Yeah, calling it "traditional" just shifts the question to "whose traditions?"



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auntie



Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 1774
Location: Brooklyn, NY


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 6:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just celebrated 35 years of marriage to the same man, but in many respects I would not call ours a traditional marriage. One reason is that we are child free by choice.



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fancy_daniel



Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 4489
Location: Los Angeles


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm sure Glenn didn't mean to offend anyone. I wouldn't let one little word get everyone's panties in a lather.

Same-sex marriage here, just got married last year after being in a relationship for 12 years.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66772
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 08/31/17 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
StevenHW wrote:
CourtsideTix wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Queenie wrote:
I would think "married - opposite sex" would better clarify the meaning of that one option. I mean, I'm in a heterosexual marriage, but there are a lot of elements to it that would not be considered "traditional".


Okay, "traditional" marriage was intended to mean that your legal spouse is of the opposite biological sex. I thought that was obvious terminology, in contrast to a "same sex" marriage, but I hope this clarifies it. (I can't edit the poll choices now.)


"Traditional marriage" is an offensive term frequently used by those opposed to marriage equality to demean same-sex couples. Dog whistle.


Not to mention those who are in polygamous marriages (such as traditional Mormons). They might consider themselves as being in a "traditional" marriage.

Then there's also polyamorous couples, who are faithfully married to each other, but consenting to have sex partners with others, with each other's knowledge and consent. That is, "swingers".


Yeah, calling it "traditional" just shifts the question to "whose traditions?"


Obviously the OP's traditions. That's the default, anything else is a deviation from the default.



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 09/01/17 1:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is intended to be a simple demographic poll of this site, not a sociological argument. I think most understand that.

The poll is intentionally about legal marriage status not live-together relationships, which are far more transient and changing. The end of a legal marriage can be defined by official divorce or widow status, which the law recognizes for many different purposes. There is no legal category that defines a person whose non-marital live-in relationship has ended. That person has been "never married" for purposes of this particular poll. Participation in the poll is obviously voluntary.

Based on Queenie's comment, I have clarified what the poll means by "traditional marriage". Prior to this century, no country in the world or state in the USA sanctioned full marital status to same sex couples, but only to opposite sex couples. The media commonly calls those pre-2000, opposite sex marriages "traditional". I simply adopted that common terminology.

I have follow-up polls planned that will be more exciting than this one.

Perhaps a poll would be interesting about long-term non-marital relationships among the unmarried. Seems reasonable, especially given the surprising (to me) high level of "never marrieds" in the context of the high median age on this site.

Meanwhile, thanks for the poll responses so far. I hope we can get a lot more.
allenleavell



Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 677



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PostPosted: 09/01/17 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

this is interesting!!!I will participate in the next one. But u have to give us juicy information data!!


CourtsideTix



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 4565
Location: Washington, DC


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PostPosted: 09/01/17 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


Based on Queenie's comment, I have clarified what the poll means by "traditional marriage". Prior to this century, no country in the world or state in the USA sanctioned full marital status to same sex couples, but only to opposite sex couples. The media commonly calls those pre-2000, opposite sex marriages "traditional". I simply adopted that common terminology.



Oh please. You'd have to be living under a rock not to know this is ideologically charged language and the "common terminology" of opponents of marriage equality.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911



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PostPosted: 09/01/17 2:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BTW - Glenn, you aren't collecting this info for the IRS are you?


Ay Mate



Joined: 12 Nov 2016
Posts: 1280



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PostPosted: 09/01/17 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This thread is offensive. Not wasting my time voting, but I have no problem saying this thread is offensive.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 09/02/17 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not seeing it. While offense, by nature, is a subjective quality, I don't think we are being fair to Glenn here. He used a term that is used frequently in the context he did, without it being considered offensive. "Traditional" is also used to delineate family types without any animus or assigned value. Typically it is used simply to signify that our definitions have recently changed. Which is absolutely accurate within this context.

But the term "traditional" makes no qualitative or quanitative claim of superiority over any other. Something traditional can be inferior, superior, or equal to non-traditional. There is no fundemental value to it. When discussing marriage, the word itself does not impart a sense of increased value and was not created to do so. Yes, the homophobes have venerated "traditional marriage", but that term was not their creation and that veneration would exist no matter the nomenclature used.

My only issue with this, and it is not a matter of offense but rather of utility, is why bother differentiating between same sex and opposite sex marriage at all? Since the sexual orientation of anyone who is divorced, widowed, or single is unknown, there is no way to make a demograpic statement in regards to that. So only one category delineates for orientation, making it a strange outlier in the poll. Either being LGBTQ should be significant to the results thus all options should have an option for LGBTQ responses, or else it is insignificant and thus such a delineation in only one category seems odd (and perhaps is why people are reading it as offensive?).



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CourtsideTix



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/02/17 8:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
I'm not seeing it. While offense, by nature, is a subjective quality, I don't think we are being fair to Glenn here. He used a term that is used frequently in the context he did, without it being considered offensive. "Traditional" is also used to delineate family types without any animus or assigned value. Typically it is used simply to signify that our definitions have recently changed. Which is absolutely accurate within this context.

But the term "traditional" makes no qualitative or quanitative claim of superiority over any other. Something traditional can be inferior, superior, or equal to non-traditional. There is no fundemental value to it. When discussing marriage, the word itself does not impart a sense of increased value and was not created to do so. Yes, the homophobes have venerated "traditional marriage", but that term was not their creation and that veneration would exist no matter the nomenclature used.



Whether "traditional marriage" was ever a value-free term, it certainly has not been one for years, and most sentient beings know that. It's the anti-gay buzz phrase of opponents of marriage equality, who argue that same-sex marriage will destroy marriage. It is now and has been for years a loaded, judgmental term.

In a vacuum, "All Lives Matter" is not ideologically charged language. To the contrary, the words in isolation from any context express a noble sentiment. But those who are using the term now are doing so intentionally in a specific climate and context that makes them racially offensive.

It would have been very simple for Glenn to have written "opposite-sex marriage." He made the loaded choice not to.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 09/02/17 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"All Lives Matter" was created specifically as a counter-protest to BLM. That is the problem with it and why it has racist undertones.

"Traditional Marriage" was not created by the opposition, but rather by society in general simply as a way to differentiate as the social definition changed. The word "traditional" is used in this sort of context in areas other than marriage when contemporary mores have drastically changed. In other words, the term is used without malice or animus by a large portion of the country so assigning blame to someone for using it when we might turn on the news tonight and hear it defined that way seems unfair.



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CourtsideTix



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/02/17 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Glenn is not the victim here. He had a perfectly good alternative but instead he chose language that is widely and commonly used to specifically demean and oppose same-sex marriage as some sort of destructive, fraudulent other. As a gay person, I find that offensive. If others don't, I really don't care.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/02/17 11:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Except he used the generally accepted nomenclature that is popularly used in all sorts of contexts and is commonly used by the news media and even in academic/sociologic writings. Yes, there are other terms available, but most people would have no reason to think that others would be offended by usage of the common term.

To this day we discuss "traditional family structures" and "nontraditional" ones. This type of phrasing is pretty standard and is not generally accepted as offensive, or even insensitive. If there is a push against using these terms, it is far from universal and in many places is completely unknown.



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CourtsideTix



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PostPosted: 09/02/17 1:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Except he used the generally accepted nomenclature that is popularly used in all sorts of contexts and is commonly used by the news media and even in academic/sociologic writings. Yes, there are other terms available, but most people would have no reason to think that others would be offended by usage of the common term.



Except that he didn't and it's not.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/02/17 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CourtsideTix wrote:
justintyme wrote:
I'm not seeing it. While offense, by nature, is a subjective quality, I don't think we are being fair to Glenn here. He used a term that is used frequently in the context he did, without it being considered offensive. "Traditional" is also used to delineate family types without any animus or assigned value. Typically it is used simply to signify that our definitions have recently changed. Which is absolutely accurate within this context.

But the term "traditional" makes no qualitative or quanitative claim of superiority over any other. Something traditional can be inferior, superior, or equal to non-traditional. There is no fundemental value to it. When discussing marriage, the word itself does not impart a sense of increased value and was not created to do so. Yes, the homophobes have venerated "traditional marriage", but that term was not their creation and that veneration would exist no matter the nomenclature used.



Whether "traditional marriage" was ever a value-free term, it certainly has not been one for years, and most sentient beings know that. It's the anti-gay buzz phrase of opponents of marriage equality, who argue that same-sex marriage will destroy marriage. It is now and has been for years a loaded, judgmental term.


You think everyone is in your world, in your head, living and internalizing your life experiences and your politics. And if not then they aren't deemed by you to be sentient human beings? That's a mindset that really sets people's teeth on edge. Someone else called this a dog whistle?

But I totally support gay marriage and on this subject hope only that everyone can marry whomever they want always and forever.

And yet the news that the term 'traditional marriage' is an offensive loaded judgmental dog whistle is completely new to me. (I don't, however, for one second, doubt that what you say about the phrase is true in terms of its traditional implications in the battles surrounding gay marriage.)

You say you don't care what people think, but you have to deal with the fact that the dark side of this phrase is not even on the radar screen of people who aren't living your life and who have absolutely no reason whatsoever to give the slightest shit about you or your problems. Just like no one gives a shit about theirs. Or mine.

But maybe you think you don't need people on your side politically or maybe even that taking a phrase that is totally innocuous to most Americans and adding it to the ever growing list of things they can't say is helping your cause or maybe, it's as you said, you just don't give a shit. That's all perfectly understandable but, as you turn once-allies off and infuriate people who previously had nothing against you, be ready to deal with the world you're creating for yourself.

Like justin, I questioned not the phrase, because I wasn't aware that it was a trigger for people, but the fact that he needed to differentiate at all between people who are married. You're either married or you're not. Nobody, at this point, least of all here, should give a shit whether respondents are in a same sex marriage or what many people unaware of the offensiveness of the term would innocently refer to as a 'traditional marriage.'

I also was more distracted by Glenn leaving out people who live together, as I lived with my now wife for like 34 years before marrying her and I don't think my lifelong relationship, had I not gotten married, or anyone else's, should find itself excluded from the poll. His statement that relationships like mine 'don't count' comes off honestly as laughable.

Buy HEY, Shocked I ain't my poll. Or yours or anyone else's but Glenn's.


mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/02/17 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, I understand that "traditional marriage" is generally an offensive term. The idea being that "traditional" essentially means "normal" and so you have "normal marriage" and "gay marriage." As if one is still superior to the other.

And my first inclination was to be annoyed at Glenn's usage.

However, I've thought about it. And truly, in this case, Glenn likely had no idea. Just look at the thread about Diana and Penny getting marriage, Glenn doesn't have a clue about any of the political or social aspects of the gay community.

I hope he takes this as an opportunity to understand why people might have a problem with his terms, but I'd also say that the rest of us should give him a break because he likely honestly didn't know.



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