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USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi
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MrCam



Joined: 19 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: 09/28/18 5:12 pm    ::: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi Reply Reply with quote

However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-

istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new

qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &

establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup.


toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 09/28/18 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players.



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MrCam



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PostPosted: 09/28/18 9:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players.


It is not hate at all. It is REALITY!!! Someone asked Geno about Bird and

Taurasi either before the 2014 FIBA World Cup for Women or the 2016

Rio Olympics. The question concerned the ages of these two players and

why USAB continued to call them up. Geno's response was: who do we

have that CAN replace them. As much as as I do not TRUST Geno, he

sounded sincere and gave the impression that he WOULD have replaced

them if he had two younger but equally skilled players to call.

I am a TALENT snob and I only care about what a player can do for Team

USA. The only other requirement I have is that a player is NOT a locker

room cancer.


J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 09/28/18 10:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If I was a betting person I would say that (barring injury) Bird and Taurasi will be on the Olympic team in 2020 and they will retire after that.

I do not see the committee forcing them to retire.

I do not think they would have played on this Worlds team if they did not intend to stick around until 2020. Again I could see injury derailing this plan and either one of them could choose to retire (I only see this happening if they have an injury that would allow them to play but at such a lower level that they wouldn't want to.

As it is it is looking like there will be at least two new guards on the tem in 2020 replacing Whalen and Augustus and I doubt McCoughtry will be an option in 2020 either so that is 3 open perimeter spots come 2020 even if Bird and Taurasi hang on until then.

So

Bird/?
Taurasi/?
Moore/?
Stewart/EDD/Wilson/Charles or N. Ogwumike
Griner/Fowles

So even if one or two of the 7 posts end up out the post looks more than full but 3 new perimeter players will be on the team

options
this years other 3 guards at the Worlds
Plum, Loyd and Clarendon
(team USA does have a loyalty factor but doesn't always see Worlds as a sure bet for an Olympic team Sims was on the Worlds in 14 but couldn't break onto the Olympic team in 16 or win back her Worlds spot this go round).
other perimeter players in the most recent camp
Sims, Ogunbowale, Ionescu, Deshields, K. Mitchell, T, Mitchell, A. Gray
top perimeter players not in this camp but in recent camps
Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Hayes, KLS, Durr
players who missed camp due to injury who could re-emerge in the next 2 years
McCoughtry, Jefferson, Augustus
super young guns and W young ones who might emerge in the next 2 years
Carter, Fudd, Bueckers, Atkins, Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud

but with all that said my "realistic" candidates list for future National teams on the perimeter are

Plum, Loyd, Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Deshields and further down the road Ionescu, Durr, Ogunbowale, KLS, Carter and Fudd


MrCam



Joined: 19 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
If I was a betting person I would say that (barring injury) Bird and Taurasi will be on the Olympic team in 2020 and they will retire after that.

I do not see the committee forcing them to retire.

I do not think they would have played on this Worlds team if they did not intend to stick around until 2020. Again I could see injury derailing this plan and either one of them could choose to retire (I only see this happening if they have an injury that would allow them to play but at such a lower level that they wouldn't want to.

As it is it is looking like there will be at least two new guards on the tem in 2020 replacing Whalen and Augustus and I doubt McCoughtry will be an option in 2020 either so that is 3 open perimeter spots come 2020 even if Bird and Taurasi hang on until then.

So

Bird/?
Taurasi/?
Moore/?
Stewart/EDD/Wilson/Charles or N. Ogwumike
Griner/Fowles

So even if one or two of the 7 posts end up out the post looks more than full but 3 new perimeter players will be on the team

options
this years other 3 guards at the Worlds
Plum, Loyd and Clarendon
(team USA does have a loyalty factor but doesn't always see Worlds as a sure bet for an Olympic team Sims was on the Worlds in 14 but couldn't break onto the Olympic team in 16 or win back her Worlds spot this go round).
other perimeter players in the most recent camp
Sims, Ogunbowale, Ionescu, Deshields, K. Mitchell, T, Mitchell, A. Gray
top perimeter players not in this camp but in recent camps
Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Hayes, KLS, Durr
players who missed camp due to injury who could re-emerge in the next 2 years
McCoughtry, Jefferson, Augustus
super young guns and W young ones who might emerge in the next 2 years
Carter, Fudd, Bueckers, Atkins, Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud

but with all that said my "realistic" candidates list for future National teams on the perimeter are

Plum, Loyd, Diggins-Smith, C. Gray, McBride, Deshields and further down the road Ionescu, Durr, Ogunbowale, KLS, Carter and Fudd



These three are TOO old and need to retire: McCoughtry, Jefferson,

Augustus.

Remember, one of the reasons that this Team USA looks so dis-

combobulated is that half of the players have never played WITH

each other at this level. USAB needs to have a sell by date of age

33. You can be no older than 33 by the end of the Olympic or FIBA

World Cup tournament.

USAB instituted a Women's U23 National Team in 2017. I was under

the distinct impression that the purpose of this team was to groom fu-

ture senior national teamers. They will probably use the U23 team for

the FIBA qualifiers. http://www.fiba.basketball/en/womens-calendar


This group is TOO young to make any predictions yet.

Carter SG and a scoring machine, Fudd a very young female Steph

Curry, Bueckers the ultimate teammate and a deadly passer, Atkins,

Sykes, Cor. Williams, Chr. Williams, K. Charles, Slocum not good

enough, Mabrey, Canada, Cloud.

You left out Haley JONES & Jordan "The Predator" HORSTON. Horston

is a ball hawking guard that plays like a small forward. She plays de-

fense and TERRORIZED her opponents in the QF, SF, & the Final @ the

FIBA U17 Tournament.

Of the young guns I like Ogunbowale, Ionescu, & Asia Durr. I think

that Ogunbowale & Durr have the most upside and they should be ready

by the 2022 FIBA World Cup. Ionescu might make a good back-up SG.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I say let them play into their sixties. It’s the only way the WBB competitions would have any excitement and competition.


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As a non-American I'm totally on board with pushing Bird out of Team USA!



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Tally24



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 1:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Welcome to the board. I only have one rule: NEVER mention DT and the “r” word in the same sentence. Wink
Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 5:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
As a non-American I'm totally on board with pushing Bird out of Team USA!


Yeah Birdies response to this whole thread is talk to the 3rd ring bitches



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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
Force10rulz



Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 1966
Location: Puget Sound


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PostPosted: 09/29/18 8:29 am    ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi Reply Reply with quote

MrCam wrote:
However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-

istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new

qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &

establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup.


Please, people said Sue should retire and she had one of her best yrs leading us to our third ‘ship. And Dee is still ballin’ like crazy. Maybe after the next Olympic’s.



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ucbart



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2811
Location: New York


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PostPosted: 09/29/18 9:52 am    ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi Reply Reply with quote

MrCam wrote:
However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-

istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new

qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &

establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup.


Might I remind you that Sue and DT have been VERY loyal to USA basketball. Did you see the qualifying roster? Who exactly would be better than them? A lot of the younger players, quite frankly are brats, and the last thing they want is to play USA basketball.

Just another anti UCONN fan here. Rolling Eyes


Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3302



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 10:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MrCam wrote:
toad455 wrote:
MrCam, I know you're new to these boards, but ease up off the hate of certain players.


It is not hate at all. It is REALITY!!! Someone asked Geno about Bird and

Taurasi either before the 2014 FIBA World Cup for Women or the 2016

Rio Olympics. The question concerned the ages of these two players and

why USAB continued to call them up. Geno's response was: who do we

have that CAN replace them. As much as as I do not TRUST Geno, he

sounded sincere and gave the impression that he WOULD have replaced

them if he had two younger but equally skilled players to call.

I am a TALENT snob and I only care about what a player can do for Team

USA. The only other requirement I have is that a player is NOT a locker

room cancer.


Did anyone else read this, and imagine @MrCam's speaking voice as being like Mister DiMartino from Daria? Also, are you using a version of this website that has WordWrap disabled? #AskingForAFriend

MrCam wrote:
These three are TOO old and need to retire: McCoughtry, Jefferson,

Augustus.

Jefferson is too old? Too old to do what?



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 10:16 am    ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi Reply Reply with quote

ucbart wrote:
Might I remind you that Sue and DT have been VERY loyal to USA basketball.

In what way have Taurasi and the Compiler been loyal to USAB, that Candace Parker was not? Please educate me; my Google-fu appears to be weak, in this regard.

Quote:
Did you see the qualifying roster? Who exactly would be better than them?

Well, in the first place, you're creating a false ultimatum: USAB doesn't require players who are "better" than them in order to win gold. There are plenty of players who are good enough: I'm pretty sure that some of them started on teams that competed in the 2018 WNBA playoffs. And, in the second place, if the qualifying roster for USAB did not include players that were good enough to help USA win gold, then the problem was in the selection process, because there is no shortage of talent.

Quote:
A lot of the younger players, quite frankly are brats, and the last thing they want is to play USA basketball.

I'm intrigued: please, tell me more about this "brat" problem.



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MrCam



Joined: 19 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 10:18 am    ::: Re: USA Basketball needs to RETIRE Bird & Taurasi Reply Reply with quote

ucbart wrote:
MrCam wrote:
However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College can real-

istically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond? FIBA's new

qualification system will give Team USA plenty of opportunities to test &

establish new PG's & SG's for the 2022 FIBA Women's World Cup.


Might I remind you that Sue and DT have been VERY loyal to USA basketball. Did you see the qualifying roster? Who exactly would be
better than them? A lot of the younger players, quite frankly are brats, and the last thing they want is to play USA basketball.

Just another anti UCONN fan here. Rolling Eyes


ALL Professional Athletes have a sell by date!!!

You stated: Who exactly would be better than them?

I stated: However, which USA guards in the WNBA [Under 25] & College

can realistically replace them for the 2020 Olympic Games & beyond?


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better.

The issue, as mentioned, is who those better players might be, and especially for Bird, it's tough to see who that is.

I think it's also important to factor in the kind of competition faced at major international events. In general, there are fewer blindingly quick perimeter players that could take advantage of older players in those events than in the WNBA, so potential defensive liabilities might not be as great.

Ideally, USA Basketball would have cycled in the clear replacements for Bird, Taurasi and the other aging vets by now, but from what I can see there are no clear replacements. Both of those players are still in the top 12 -- and maybe higher.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better.

I don't understand why people perpetuate this nonsense? A cohesive roster doesn't require the "best 12." USAB has a tremendous pool of talent to choose from; their margin of error is way bigger than the rest of the world. There's an enormous talent gap between the fourth-best point guard in the United States, and the fourth-best point guard in, say, Spain.

The "cohesive roster" part is way more important than the "best 12" part. The Connecticut Sun's roster, sans Jonquel Jones, is entirely composed of players from the United States. If the United States sent the Connecticut Sun (less Jones) to Tokyo, in place of Team USA, the Connecticut Sun would win the gold medal, and do you know how many players on the Sun are among the "best 12"? Zero, that's how many.

Wide as the US margin for error is, point guard is still the most important position on the court, and the point guard needs to develop a relationship with the other players, moreso than anyone else. Let's say that the Compiler "deserves" to play for USAB until she's ready to retire. I don't think that "deserve" has shit to do with shit, but that's neither here nor there: let's just stipulate the point, for the sake of argument. At some point, she's going to have to retire: Father Time is undefeated. So, the Compiler has indicated that she wants to play in Tokyo? Fine, let's give her that: let's just stipulate, for argument's sake, that she's "earned" it. USAB needs to already be looking ahead to [????] in 2022, and Paris in 2024. The starting point guard in Paris should already be on the team right now, learning as much from the incumbent as she can: raise your hand if you think that's going to be either Layshia Clarendon or Kelsey Plum?



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 11:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

per36 stats in 23yo seasons
Bird 13.9 PTS, 5.8 AST, 2.8 TO
Plum 13.4 PTS, 5.7 AST, 1.7 TO

*raises hand*


Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ogunnerbowale and dUrr just lost in 3x3 this year as the USA hand picked team without even making the final of their own US competition and the only team with a coach so I think they are not ready and did not fair well.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Please count me as one more vote for Bird and Taurasi being on the team. Not as a career honor, but because both are still playing well enough to deserve their roster spots and I'm not overwhelmed by the alternatives. And because experience in major competitions is a plus (though not enough in itself to give someone a roster spot.)



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In order to answer this question, you need to define the goal. Is it...
...to put our current best team on the floor now?
...or to put an adequate team on the floor to bring home the gold but including some younger players to bring them along for future competitions?

I would submit the second plan is better, but the men's teams seem to do fine largely using the first strategy.


Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Please count me as one more vote for Bird and Taurasi being on the team. Not as a career honor, but because both are still playing well enough to deserve their roster spots and I'm not overwhelmed by the alternatives. And because experience in major competitions is a plus (though not enough in itself to give someone a roster spot.)

Doesn't that become circular, at some point? Experience in major competitions is a plus, but you can't get experience in major competitions unless you're on the team, and you can't make the team if those spots are always alloted to the players with the most experience.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
In order to answer this question, you need to define the goal. Is it...
...to put our current best team on the floor now?
...or to put an adequate team on the floor to bring home the gold but including some younger players to bring them along for future competitions?

I would submit the second plan is better, but the men's teams seem to do fine largely using the first strategy.

Are you sure? Because, last I checked, there's only one player in the history of the men's program with three Olympic gold medals, and only three players in history with more than two medals, total.



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MrCam



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
ClayK wrote:
It would seem to me that the best players should play, regardless of age. If Bird and Taurasi are two of the best 12 that make up a cohesive roster, then they deserve to play. If not, then they should be replaced by those who are better.

I don't understand why people perpetuate this nonsense? A cohesive roster doesn't require the "best 12." USAB has a tremendous pool of talent to choose from; their margin of error is way bigger than the rest of the world. There's an enormous talent gap between the fourth-best point guard in the United States, and the fourth-best point guard in, say, Spain.

The "cohesive roster" part is way more important than the "best 12" part. The Connecticut Sun's roster, sans Jonquel Jones, is entirely composed of players from the United States. If the United States sent the Connecticut Sun (less Jones) to Tokyo, in place of Team USA, the Connecticut Sun would win the gold medal, and do you know how many players on the Sun are among the "best 12"? Zero, that's how many.

Wide as the US margin for error is, point guard is still the most important position on the court, and the point guard needs to develop a relationship with the other players, moreso than anyone else. Let's say that the Compiler "deserves" to play for USAB until she's ready to retire. I don't think that "deserve" has shit to do with shit, but that's neither here nor there: let's just stipulate the point, for the sake of argument. At some point, she's going to have to retire: Father Time is undefeated. So, the Compiler has indicated that she wants to play in Tokyo? Fine, let's give her that: let's just stipulate, for argument's sake, that she's "earned" it. USAB needs to already be looking ahead to [????] in 2022, and Paris in 2024. The starting point guard in Paris should already be on the team right now, learning as much from the incumbent as she can: raise your hand if you think that's going to be either Layshia Clarendon or Kelsey Plum?


Bench Min Pts FG 2Pts 3Pts FT OREB DREB

Sue BIRD 22:01 0 0/3 0/0 0/3 0/0 0 0
0% 0% 0% 0%


REB AST PF TO STL BLK +/- EFF

0 7 1 1 0 0 12 3

These stats only CONFIRM "Silky Johnson"'s point.


sigur3



Joined: 18 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: 09/29/18 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This again? lol


Coyotes



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PostPosted: 09/29/18 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You guys really want to retire Diana Taurasi after she almost single handedly won that game against Belgium in the second half for you?


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