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cthskzfn
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 Posted: 08/22/17 8:11 am ::: SPOILER---The Game of Thrones spoiler thread---SPOILER |
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| well, it was a helluva javelin toss.
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sambista
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| Posted: 08/22/17 12:42 pm ::: |
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thanks for setting up this thread, cthskzfn. sometimes i just walk in circles in my rio apartment, shouting to myself about everything i just saw in an episode. (none of my brasilian friends are into it, even though they rerun it throughout the week. must be moving in the wrong circles.)
yeah, that javelin toss was pretty ridiculous. but more important, as i've been reading and agreeing about various reviews, the show's straying a bit. too much disbelief to suspend. it's hard to believe king author george is advising/collaborating. that outing to capture a whitewalker was just absurd. let's go on a suicide mission!!! they didn't bring a cage or irons or anything. but what's most unbelievable is that, all of a sudden, tyrion isn't the smartest person in the room. what's up with that?! he can't get anything right now.
all that said, i still adore the show and never tire of playing the episodes over and over again. brilliant dialogue, fascinating characters and groundbreaking visuals.
now, for the really big thing: how amazing is it that now we can imagine what'll happen with the dred dead dragon?
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 1:10 pm ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| but what's most unbelievable is that, all of a sudden, tyrion isn't the smartest person in the room. what's up with that?! he can't get anything right now. |
He still is, people have just stopped listening to him. This last episode was a perfect example. Tyrion warned Dany to not fly to Jon's rescue. And he was right. That entire party was expendable (only Jon's death would make things tougher, which is why he should never have been leading such an expedition), but what wasn't expendable was Dany or any of her dragons.
I've read a lot of people whinging (had to do it) about how the White Walkers and their wight army just stood there staring at our noble band of adventurers instead of shooting them with ranged weapons once they had them surrounded, like they had never heard of a bow and arrow or slings; or how they suddenly had massive chains available to pull the dragon out. They see these things as plot holes, but they are missing the big picture. These aren't plot holes; this was strategy.
What these people are missing is that the Night King was after a dragon the whole time. Much like in chess when you attempt to get your opponent to release their queen on your terms rather than on theirs, the Night King trapped Jon and the rest to try and draw out Dany. They were ready and waiting for her to appear. And she rode right into the trap.
So, guess who was right? Yup, mister Too Small. She just failed to listen to the cleverest man in the room. Again.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/22/17 1:18 pm ::: |
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The time warping or teleportation was ridiculous in 7-6. At the shore of the lake they send Gendry to run back for help, and then they go to the tiny island in the middle of the lake and are immediately surrounded by the wights.
Gendry has to run all the way back to the Wall, have a raven fly at least 2000 miles to Dragonstone, and then Daenerys has to fly her dragons at least 2000 miles to the lake. Yet, this rescue seems to happen in a matter of hours.
When I watched season 6 for the second time, I picked up this line from Jon's uncle Benjen speaking to Bran and Meera that I had completely missed the first time: “The Wall’s not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass.”
This must mean the wights can't get past the wall unless it is destroyed. Perhaps this will be the role of Viserion, the new ice dragon. Will he spew fire or ice?
The hints at a budding romantic relationship between Jon and Daenerys seem thematically futile, since we now know for certain that Jon is the legitimate son of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Daenerys is Jon's aunt, and the show can't bear another incestuous relationship, since that has been the great evil of Cersi and Jaime.
Speaking of the Lannisters, what did they ever do to make their family the bad guys? Yes, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but that was a spontaneous personal protection act not a family-against-family, planned war aggression act. Cersi, Jaime and Tyrion are the ones who've suffered at the hands of others: hand chopped off, son poisoned, daughter murdered, son committing suicide, imprisonment and public shaming.
It's Daenerys who's killed thousands with her soldiers and dragons. Yet, she's being portrayed as more of a good guy than the Lannisters. |
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sambista
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| Posted: 08/22/17 1:43 pm ::: |
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ok, first, i missed all that from benjen, so thanks for that.
second, i don't trip on the time thing. it is what it is.
as for the budding romance, i just read this (try to skip over it if you don't wanna know). nyt interview w/director alan thomas:
| Quote: |
Is the Daenerys and Jon Snow romance inevitable at this point?
Yeah, I think it’s kind of hard to see that not happening. When we were shooting Season 1 and no one had seen the show yet, we were in Malta. Back then, there was not a lot of secrecy because nobody was paying attention, and George R.R. Martin came to visit and he was being quite open about his plans. He said something: That it really is all about Dany and Jon. I was surprised because at the time, you know, I thought, well Robb Stark’s going to be king next, probably. And who knows where this story’s going? But it was absolutely clear to him that within this sprawling scale the whole story was coming down to this partnership. |
dany holds 10 times the moral ground of most on that show. end of discussion!
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sambista
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| Posted: 08/22/17 1:46 pm ::: |
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| oh, i was gonna add that tyrion's previous "strategy" didn't work out so well. though he did wisely counsel dany against ravaging the king's landing citizenry.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 1:48 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| The hints at a budding romantic relationship between Jon and Daenerys seem thematically futile, since we now now for certain that Jon is the legitimate son of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Daenerys is Jon's aunt, and the show can't bear another incestuous relationship, since that has been the great evil of Cersi and Jaime. |
That shouldn't be a problem. The Targaryens have a long, long history of incestual pairings. In fact, until she was sold off by her brother to Drogo for a Dothraki army, Dany had believed that if her brother ever actually won back the Iron Throne she would end up marrying him.
There have been comments throughout the series from Jaime and Cersei justifying their relationship because it's what the Targaryens do. And others keep pointing out that they aren't Targaryens, obviously drawing a moral distinction they way people do. So if Dany and Jon get it on, people would just shrug and think "Targaryens gonna do what Targaryens do".
| Quote: |
| Speaking of the Lannisters, what did they ever do to make their family the bad guys? Yes, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but that was a spontaneous personal protection act not a family-against-family, planned war aggression act. Cersi, Jaime and Tyrion are the ones who've suffered at the hands of others: hand chopped off, son poisoned, daughter murdered, son committing suicide, imprisonment and public shaming. |
I think it is mostly the whole Robert thing. She killed the king and then put people in the Throne that were not of his line. And then the fact that Joffery was literally a psychopath pretty much sealed their fate in people's eyes. But it is much more nuanced in the books--Jaime is fairly well loved as a character by most people by the end of book 5. The other things that get them is that they stood against and led to the death of Ned Stark. In a book of gray characters, Ned was one of the few truely honorable people. Killing him is hard to overcome.
| Quote: |
| It's Daenerys who's killed thousands with her soldiers and dragons. Yet, she's being portrayed as more of a good guy than the Lannisters. |
That is one of the failings of the show. The biggest theme of all in the books is how when the Lords all play their game of thrones, it os the small folk who pay the price. They are the ones who starve, who are pressed into service and die in the front lines, who are raped and killed when armies pass through. Dany is protrayed as an idealist in both. Her desire to do good and help people, free slaves, etc., are all good traits, and perhaps it makes her more of a "good guy" than the Lannisters who are all about power for power's sake and exploiting all who aren't them for their own gain, but the consequences of her actions are still devastating. That last part is glossed over in the show quite a bit. Thus she becomes the one everyone cheers for (along with Jon).
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cthskzfn
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/22/17 2:27 pm ::: |
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Did anyone watch After the Thrones last season?
Thoughts?
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braveniler58
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| Posted: 08/22/17 2:59 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
The time warping or teleportation was ridiculous in 7-6. At the shore of the lake they send Gendry to run back for help, and then they go to the tiny island in the middle of the lake and are immediately surrounded by the wights.
Gendry has to run all the way back to the Wall, have a raven fly at least 2000 miles to Dragonstone, and then Daenerys has to fly her dragons at least 2000 miles to the lake. Yet, this rescue seems to happen in a matter of hours.
When I watched season 6 for the second time, I picked up this line from Jon's uncle Benjen speaking to Bran and Meera that I had completely missed the first time: “The Wall’s not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass.”
This must mean the wights can't get past the wall unless it is destroyed. Perhaps this will be the role of Viserion, the new ice dragon. Will he spew fire or ice?
The hints at a budding romantic relationship between Jon and Daenerys seem thematically futile, since we now know for certain that Jon is the legitimate son of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Daenerys is Jon's aunt, and the show can't bear another incestuous relationship, since that has been the great evil of Cersi and Jaime.
Speaking of the Lannisters, what did they ever do to make their family the bad guys? Yes, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but that was a spontaneous personal protection act not a family-against-family, planned war aggression act. Cersi, Jaime and Tyrion are the ones who've suffered at the hands of others: hand chopped off, son poisoned, daughter murdered, son committing suicide, imprisonment and public shaming.
It's Daenerys who's killed thousands with her soldiers and dragons. Yet, she's being portrayed as more of a good guy than the Lannisters. |
Jon and Daenerys is going to happen. They don't even know they're related. Its silly to say that it won't happen because it's incestuous and the show already has an incestuous pairing. The fact Jaime and Cersei is a thing only makes it more likely that Jon and Daenerys will happen.
As for what the Lannisters did to be the bad guys, really? Are you seriously asking that?
-Jaime pushed Bran out of a window
-Joffrey tried to have Bran murdered
-Cersei murdered Robert Baratheon
-Joffrey ordered all of Robert's bastards murdered, including babies
-Joffrey cut off Ned's head and made enemies of the North instead of sending him off to the Night's Watch
-Cersei kept Sansa prisoner and forced her to marry Tyrion
-Joffrey tortured and murdered a couple of whores (Ros)
-Tywin murdered Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark and the entire Stark army at a wedding, after being provided of Guest Right, via the Freys and Boltons
-Cersei tried to empower the Faith Militant so they would do her dirty work and eliminate her enemies (Margaery Tyrell)
-When that backfired, she blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing the High Septon, the Tyrells apart from Olenna, and her own family members in Lancel and Kevan, leading to the suicide of her last child, then crowned herself Queen
-Cersei poisoned Tyene Sand and forced Ellaria to watch her die (although I can't complain about this one too much)
-This wasn't shown on the show but Cersei did mention it - the Lannisters wiped out House Castamere and wrote a song about it (Rains of Castamere)
Daenerys and her dragons have killed a lot of people and she hasn't always made the right decision, but she cares about others, especially the slaves she freed, unlike Cersei. Cersei cares about nobody except herself, and if I'm being honest - only herself/power, not even Jaime.
Not all of the Lannisters are bad, but the Lannisters are 100% the villainous family in GoT. I really don't know how you can conclude otherwise.
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braveniler58
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| Posted: 08/22/17 3:00 pm ::: |
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| double post
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/22/17 3:51 pm ::: |
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I don't consider individual murders to be "bad" in the GoT world. Everyone does it, most especially the royals. I don't recall that the Lannister family did anything bad historically. They were the wealthiest family, but I don't think they ever ruled anyone outside their own region.
Jaime killed the mad king Targaryen, but he was truly evil. Jaime did a good thing.
Most all the killing Cersei has done has been because of her love of her children. It's understandable. Robert was a terrible king, husband and father, and like any decent scorned woman, she wanted him dead. Robert didn't really deserve to be king anyway; he got the throne by brute force after the mad king died and was aided by Ned.
Ned started the entire series by beheading a truthful Night Watch soldier when it was not his authority to do so.
Do we really know who ordered the stabbing of Bran? That's not clear to me. Robb started the war against the Lannisters because he thought, with virtually no evidence, that it was done with a Lannister dagger, and because the new Lannister king had imprisoned his father. But Ned had been treasonous in the context of opposing Joffrey's succession. The people who support the losing side in a king contest always lose their heads. That's not just a GoT rule; it's a real world rule.
Tywin Lannister was behind the Red Wedding, but that was in the context of his being the military leader in an ongoing war with the North, which Robb Stark had declared. It was a clever and very effective, if brutal, military tactic.
There is no doubt that Jon will learn his true parentage from Bran and Sam, and hence will immediately know his blood relations to Daenerys. There is no way the show ends with them together. Jon Snow will not adopt Targaryen marriage morals, of which he knows nothing. Either Jon or Daenerys will be killed off.
There will be some tension resolutions at the end, but no grand happy ending for all the main characters. That simply is impossible in the dark world of Westeros, Essos and the North. |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 5:06 pm ::: |
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Just a couple of quibbles:
It was absolutely within Ned's authority to execute the Night's Watch member at the beginning. One of his responsibilites as the Lord of Winterfell and the Warden of the North is to capture and bestow justice upon (i.e.: execute) any Night's Watch deserters. And that is exactly what that fellow was.
It was Joffery who hired the assassin to go after Bran. That has been fully established. He did it to gain his father's love/respect after overhearing Robert say that someone should put Bran out of his misery.
As for who was the "rightful" ruler, that is all subjective. A lot of it comes down to how certain events are seen, and there are legitimate ways to look at it from each side.
I am not sure how the show will end the story, but George R.R. Martin has said that it will be "bittersweet" as far as the books go. I also imagine that one of Jon or Dany will be dead in the end.
Personally, I think that Jon will be killed but before he dies he will impregnate Dany who will give birth to a child she will name "Drogo". She only believes that she is barren because of the Witch's prophesy, given when she asks if Drogo will ever return:
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
She is supposed to give birth to the "stallion that mounts the world" still, and her and Jon's child would have the lineage to be able to do that.
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Youth Coach
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| Posted: 08/22/17 5:34 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
Did anyone watch After the Thrones last season?
Thoughts? |
Didn't watch After The Thrones. These after shows are a waste of time.
On an off-topic note, who is that woman in your avatar? |
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/22/17 5:53 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
It was Joffery who hired the assassin to go after Bran. That has been fully established. He did it to gain his father's love/respect after overhearing Robert say that someone should put Bran out of his misery.
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I missed that. Among many other things.
But what about the dagger, which is Valerian steel. How did Joffrey get it? Didn't it originally belong to Littlefinger, who claims he gave it to Tyrion. That's why Tyrion was taken prisoner. Then it ended up with Arya, who just gave it to Sansa. Maybe Sansa will "give it back" to Littlefinger.
Back to the Lannisters. Tyrion has been as near a good guy in the story since the naive Ned Stark. Jaime seems to have been redeemed in large measure. Joffrey was a sexually sociopathic teen and brat, but he never really harmed Sansa. Cersei's two other kids were innocents and good.
And, frankly, I just like Cersei more than Dany. She's more of a babe and much smarter. Dany seems like a dumb blonde with arrested development and a lousy wig -- a naive and immature kid who's been given expensive and powerful toys.
Go Cersei! Keep paying your debts. |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 6:09 pm ::: |
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The dagger was Littlefinger's, but he lost it to Robert over a bet placed during Joffery's name day Tourney. Littlefinger tells Catelyn that he lost it to Tyrion, which is why she takes him at the Inn at the Crossroads and drags him to the Vale. But this is shown to be a lie, that it was won and forgotten by Robert until Joffery discovers it and offers it to some random cutpurse in Winterfell as payment for killing Bran.
This is why I believe that when they learn of Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned (which with Bran all-seeing now, is only a matter of time), this dagger will be used by Arya to kill him. The dagger is there in the first act, it needs to go off by act 3.
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sambista
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| Posted: 08/22/17 6:32 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
Did anyone watch After the Thrones last season?
Thoughts? |
i watched it and miss it now. it was a good way to ease out of the high and think on the things i missed. it's SO easy to miss SO much!
if jon or dany has to die, it'll be jon. like rob and "dad," he's just not clever and nimble enough for this game.
i guess we'll know soon enough (looking for that leaked epi), but i wonder what we will see and not see with this last entry. will season 7 go out with a satisfying bang, or will we be tortured waiting for next year?
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/22/17 6:35 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| Littlefinger tells Catelyn that he lost it to Tyrion, which is why she takes him at the Inn at the Crossroads and drags him to the Vale. But this is shown to be a lie . . . . |
Hmmm. Why would Littlefinger lie about this? He only does things to advantage himself. How would it benefit him to get Tyrion in trouble with the Starks?
More generally, I've never been clear on Littlefinger's long game. Wasn't he complicit in the murders of John Arryn and Joffrey? Then he kills Catelyn's sister. Does he really think he can weasel his unroyal and no-lineage self into the Iron Throne? |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 6:59 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| Littlefinger tells Catelyn that he lost it to Tyrion, which is why she takes him at the Inn at the Crossroads and drags him to the Vale. But this is shown to be a lie . . . . |
Hmmm. Why would Littlefinger lie about this? He only does things to advantage himself. How would it benefit him to get Tyrion in trouble with the Starks?
More generally, I've never been clear on Littlefinger's long game. Wasn't he complicit in the murders of John Arryn and Joffrey? Then he kills Catelyn's sister. Does he really think he can weasel his unroyal and no-lineage self into the Iron Throne? |
Littlefinger, imo, wants two things: power (in a puppet-master way) and Catelyn Stark. Since her death, his obsession has moved on from Cat to Sansa. More specifically, he now wants Sansa and to have her utterly dependent on him for everything, thus recognizing him as being one of the elites.
At heart, Littlefinger is still the small, awkward boy from a backwater of no significance who was so desperately in love with Catelyn that he challenged Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother) to a duel only to be laughed off and ridiculed.
I don't think any of his actions has to do with desiring the Iron Throne for himself, most of them were about making himself indispensable to others or getting rid of roadblocks.
The Tyrion lie was designed to ramp up tensions between the Starks and the Lannisters and allow him to get Ned out of the way. He tries to isolate Catelyn and Sansa so that they have to turn to him and him alone. It is why he tricked Arya into finding Sansa's letter, and why he suggested putting Brienne in the middle. These are relationships that undermine his ability to have and control Sansa.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/22/17 7:13 pm ::: |
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| Youth Coach wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Did anyone watch After the Thrones last season?
Thoughts? |
Didn't watch After The Thrones. These after shows are a waste of time.
On an off-topic note, who is that woman in your avatar? |
I liked ATT to review, get different perspectives, and as sambista says, to ease the crash.
Re: the avatar, I wish I knew.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/22/17 7:20 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Youth Coach wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Did anyone watch After the Thrones last season?
Thoughts? |
Didn't watch After The Thrones. These after shows are a waste of time.
On an off-topic note, who is that woman in your avatar? |
I liked ATT to review, get different perspectives, and as sambista says, to ease the crash.
Re: the avatar, I wish I knew. |
According to google image search it is a model out of Spokane, WA named Helen Grace. That pic is one of the tamer ones in the series. Beautiful woman.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/22/17 7:27 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| Littlefinger tells Catelyn that he lost it to Tyrion, which is why she takes him at the Inn at the Crossroads and drags him to the Vale. But this is shown to be a lie . . . . |
Hmmm. Why would Littlefinger lie about this? He only does things to advantage himself. How would it benefit him to get Tyrion in trouble with the Starks?
More generally, I've never been clear on Littlefinger's long game. Wasn't he complicit in the murders of John Arryn and Joffrey? Then he kills Catelyn's sister. Does he really think he can weasel his unroyal and no-lineage self into the Iron Throne? |
Littlefinger, imo, wants two things: power (in a puppet-master way) and Catelyn Stark. Since her death, his obsession has moved on from Cat to Sansa. More specifically, he now wants Sansa and to have her utterly dependent on him for everything, thus recognizing him as being one of the elites.
At heart, Littlefinger is still the small, awkward boy from a backwater of no significance who was so desperately in love with Catelyn that he challenged Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother) to a duel only to be laughed off and ridiculed.
I don't think any of his actions has to do with desiring the Iron Throne for himself, most of them were about making himself indispensable to others or getting rid of roadblocks.
The Tyrion lie was designed to ramp up tensions between the Starks and the Lannisters and allow him to get Ned out of the way. He tries to isolate Catelyn and Sansa so that they have to turn to him and him alone. It is why he tricked Arya into finding Sansa's letter, and why he suggested putting Brienne in the middle. These are relationships that undermine his ability to have and control Sansa. |
Man, I have forgotten so much, or, never knew it at all.
My long range hope is Arya wins the throne, marries Tyrion, and the two populate the kingdoms w/ a bunch of mini Stark-Lannisters. Oh yeah, and what's his name becomes Head Maester.
Off topic- btw, I have never seen Arya and MSNBC's Chris Hayes in the same place at the same time. 
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