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Liberty @ Sun - 8/18/17
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Who will win this game?
Liberty
36%
 36%  [ 7 ]
Sun
63%
 63%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 19

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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/18/17 10:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Yeah, interesting to hear that Charles almost didn't play tonight. And I wonder if with improvement in her shooting if L. Allen can become our permanent back-up PG with a healthy Boyd?

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock-Ekunwe
C: Stokes/Vaughn
12th: free agent post


Even if she is 100% healthy by training camp next season--I certainly hope so--I'm far from convinced that Boyd will ever be an effective starting point guard. She has great speed and is terrific at driving around and through people. But can she actually run the team? I believe Allen may have far more potential in that crucial task.



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PostPosted: 08/18/17 10:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
A. Thomas needs to fix her freethrow shooting.


I've watched a lot of basketball in my life, and Thomas may have the worst free throw form I can recall. Wilt tried many forms and was terrible with all of them, but they at least resembled legitimate forms. Thomas looks like a palsied contortionist.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/18/17 10:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
A. Thomas needs to fix her freethrow shooting.


I've watched a lot of basketball in my life, and Thomas may have the worst free throw form I can recall. Wilt tried many forms and was terrible with all of them, but they at least resembled legitimate forms. Thomas looks like a palsied contortionist.


What's interesting is that her free-throw percentage has gotten consistently worse as her WNBA career has progressed:

2014: 75.7% (Quite respectable.)
2015: 69.2%
2016: 63.4%
2017: 58.6%

Seems to suggest that she's finding it increasingly intimidating to be at the foul line.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I watched her a lot in college, and Alyssa Thomas was a good free throw shooter:

Fr 73.0%
So 80.0%
Jr 76.5%
Sr 79.7%
Ttl 77.4%

Not sure what happened. Thinking too much? I don't remember her having odd form in college.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Just watched a one-minute clip of Bill Laimbeer after the game. He said Tina Charles almost didn't play due to back spasms. He spoke wonderfully of her and of the contributions tonight of Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe, Sugar Rodgers, and Lindsay Allen. (He mentioned Allen's poise down the stretch.)

I've liked Allen all along and continue to believe that she could be the point guard of the future. And, as I'll keep saying, I feel the team needs a point guard who is genuinely a point guard.


Regarding Tina, that explains her bad start. And I'll tell you, she was really banging inside and was super-aggressive. Really impressive in taking leadership in a critical situation. I've indicated skepticism about that at times this year but she deserves a lot of credit. Alyssa Thomas really battles physically so Tina deserves enormous credit in playing that way through pain. Especially in a pretty important game.

On Allen, totally agree. Allen has poise, very high IQ and excellent court vision. She's my kind of player. The Liberty haven't had a high-end "pure" PG since Spoon. They've had excellent combo guards in Becky and Cappie but that true PG has been a challenge to find. I think Lindsay Allen has a good chance to be a quality starting PG someday. I'd figure a player who seems to be a very quick learner will also probably be successful in developing her weaknesses at an above average rate. We are lucky to have her. Can't believe nobody jumped on her when they had the chance.



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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 08/19/17 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I watched her a lot in college, and Alyssa Thomas was a good free throw shooter:

Fr 73.0%
So 80.0%
Jr 76.5%
Sr 79.7%
Ttl 77.4%

Not sure what happened. Thinking too much? I don't remember her having odd form in college.


Sent a PM your way FYI.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
[ On Allen, totally agree. Allen has poise, very high IQ and excellent court vision. She's my kind of player. The Liberty haven't had a high-end "pure" PG since Spoon. They've had excellent combo guards in Becky and Cappie but that true PG has been a challenge to find. I think Lindsay Allen has a good chance to be a quality starting PG someday. I'd figure a player who seems to be a very quick learner will also probably be successful in developing her weaknesses at an above average rate. We are lucky to have her. Can't believe nobody jumped on her when they had the chance.


Let's not forget that New York cut Lindsay Allen to keep Cierra Burdick. Nothing intended against Burdick. And, yes, it looked like Boyd, Prince, and Hartley were all ahead of Allen at "lead guard." Still.... Smile



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 6:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Just watched a one-minute clip of Bill Laimbeer after the game. He said Tina Charles almost didn't play due to back spasms. He spoke wonderfully of her and of the contributions tonight of Nayo Raincock-Ekunwe, Sugar Rodgers, and Lindsay Allen. (He mentioned Allen's poise down the stretch.)

I've liked Allen all along and continue to believe that she could be the point guard of the future. And, as I'll keep saying, I feel the team needs a point guard who is genuinely a point guard.


Regarding Tina, that explains her bad start. And I'll tell you, she was really banging inside and was super-aggressive. Really impressive in taking leadership in a critical situation. I've indicated skepticism about that at times this year but she deserves a lot of credit. Alyssa Thomas really battles physically so Tina deserves enormous credit in playing that way through pain. Especially in a pretty important game.

On Allen, totally agree. Allen has poise, very high IQ and excellent court vision. She's my kind of player. The Liberty haven't had a high-end "pure" PG since Spoon. They've had excellent combo guards in Becky and Cappie but that true PG has been a challenge to find. I think Lindsay Allen has a good chance to be a quality starting PG someday. I'd figure a player who seems to be a very quick learner will also probably be successful in developing her weaknesses at an above average rate. We are lucky to have her. Can't believe nobody jumped on her when they had the chance.


im still not sold on Allen just yet, she still makes rookie mistakes and still passes up open shots. but she played well down the stretch, she's not gonna hurt you, she's gonna make the safest plays and protect the ball.

that's why Laimbeer kept her in the game down the stretch cuz Hartley had a couple of bad turnovers that led to quick fastbreaks and CT started creeping back in the game.

i just love Nayo but please make your free throws sweetheart lol she was great

Sugar was HOT HOT HOT, that's a very good sign we need her.

God i hope Tina's back spasms don't become a problem for her, that is a clear sign of being overworked.

another big game Sunday against Minny


Queenie



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 7:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I watched her a lot in college, and Alyssa Thomas was a good free throw shooter:

Fr 73.0%
So 80.0%
Jr 76.5%
Sr 79.7%
Ttl 77.4%

Not sure what happened. Thinking too much? I don't remember her having odd form in college.


When did she do whatever she did to her shoulder that has her still taping it up? Maybe she changed her motion to compensate and never fixed it.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 7:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

L. Allen was that last cut in camp. Her lack of offense got her cut & Laimbeer was intending to use Prince as the back-up. I don't think he was expecting Nayo to make the final roster and was the surprise player in camp. Burdick played well in preseason games while L. Allen did not. I think L. Allen is simply doing well under the circumstances and has basically gotten thrown into the fire by default.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I watched her a lot in college, and Alyssa Thomas was a good free throw shooter:

Fr 73.0%
So 80.0%
Jr 76.5%
Sr 79.7%
Ttl 77.4%

Not sure what happened. Thinking too much? I don't remember her having odd form in college.


When did she do whatever she did to her shoulder that has her still taping it up? Maybe she changed her motion to compensate and never fixed it.


This tells me it's all mental -- referencing Wilt, apparently he was an excellent free-throw shooter in practice, but in games, his head got in the way of his body.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 10:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
This tells me it's all mental -- referencing Wilt, apparently he was an excellent free-throw shooter in practice, but in games, his head got in the way of his body.


Exactly. The data added by root_thing, along with the data I posted about Thomas's four years in the WNBA, are really striking. She did well from the foul line throughout her four years in college and in her first WNBA season (2014). Then a steady decline over the last three seasons.



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Queenie wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I watched her a lot in college, and Alyssa Thomas was a good free throw shooter:

Fr 73.0%
So 80.0%
Jr 76.5%
Sr 79.7%
Ttl 77.4%

Not sure what happened. Thinking too much? I don't remember her having odd form in college.


When did she do whatever she did to her shoulder that has her still taping it up? Maybe she changed her motion to compensate and never fixed it.


This tells me it's all mental -- referencing Wilt, apparently he was an excellent free-throw shooter in practice, but in games, his head got in the way of his body.


You're saying there's nothing wrong with her shoulder? She tapes it up like maybe it dislocates easy.



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There may be a mental component to Thomas's foul shooting, but her physical form is what I was commenting on. It's bizarre. She hold the ball in a strange position, shoots it with a sort of jangly twist, and then falls over the free throw line as soon as she releases it. The mechanical physics of her shooting form seriously compromises the accuracy of her shooting trajectory.

Compensating for injury pain makes more sense to me as an explanation for such an inefficient shooting and release form. I don't specifically recall this FT shooting form at Maryland but I don't really trust my memory, and I've never watched her much in the WNBA.

I've also never seen a good shooting touch from Thomas beyond short range or mid range at best. She seems to score a lot on layups and other short shots, often after el toro drives for which she sometimes has unexpectedly balletic finishes.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How long has she had this shoulder problem? Her free-throw percentage has deteriorated continually and significantly since 2014, as is clear in the stats I posted above.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 12:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Her shoulder has been taped or bandaged or whatever that thing is for as long as I can remember. Pretty sure it's been her entire career in the W. Whether it's injury or not I can't say. But given her form and release, in which her elbow flies out instead of staying locked in, it's conceivable she is compensating for a shoulder issue. Normally having your elbow fly out is the number one thing as a shooter that you want to avoid. When I shoot (I'm a good shooter), locking in the elbow is priority one. For me it only becomes a problem as I extend my range near the NBA 3 point line because upper body strength (lack thereof) becomes a factor. That's where my elbow sometimes flies out. That point is where I lose some accuracy. But from the foul line its easy for me to stay locked in.

If Thomas could shoot she'd be one of the five best players in the league. She does everything else at such a high level.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Her shoulder has been taped or bandaged or whatever that thing is for as long as I can remember. Pretty sure it's been her entire career in the W. Whether it's injury or not I can't say. But given her form and release, in which her elbow flies out instead of staying locked in, it's conceivable she is compensating for a shoulder issue. Normally having your elbow fly out is the number one thing as a shooter that you want to avoid. When I shoot (I'm a good shooter), locking in the elbow is priority one. For me it only becomes a problem as I extend my range near the NBA 3 point line because upper body strength (lack thereof) becomes a factor. That's where my elbow sometimes flies out. That point is where I lose some accuracy. But from the foul line its easy for me to stay locked in.

If Thomas could shoot she'd be one of the five best players in the league. She does everything else at such a high level.


Then perhaps her shoulder problem has continued to worsen AND the impact on her shooting has gotten into her head a bit. It's really striking to me that someone who averaged 77.4% free-throw shooting over four years of college and then made 75.7% in the WNBA in 2014 has gone down each season since, now to only 58.6% for 2017.



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I def agree. I think it's likely a mental/physical combo. I yelled "box out Liberty" after she shot a first of two. I think it was one of her makes. She air balled the second. Not saying I had anything to do with it but in general it's got to be in her head. Even shooting in-game too. It's never been her strength but she used to try to shoot from outside. Now she almost never does.



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 1:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see the Liberty wanted Charles to stay home for this game, but she didn't want to.

Quote:
Tina Charles was questionable for tonight’s game with lower back tightness. “I didn’t know if I was gonna play tonight,” said the All-Star forward, “they said I could stay home but I didn’t want to.”



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
I see the Liberty wanted Charles to stay home for this game, but she didn't want to.

Quote:
Tina Charles was questionable for tonight’s game with lower back tightness. “I didn’t know if I was gonna play tonight,” said the All-Star forward, “they said I could stay home but I didn’t want to.”


tells me they'll throw the chutes the moment they clinch and where they land they land



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/19/17 10:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is where I wish we had mainstream media coverage. Tina very rarely misses a game so I'd guess she'd have to be pretty debilitated to sit. But it would be nice to be able to get an update of where she's at. Obviously we need her tomorrow. But perhaps we won't need her for extended minutes Wednesday. Friday is obviously the big one.



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