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ArtBest23
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tfan
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Randy
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 Posted: 08/16/17 7:44 am ::: |
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| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides.....
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justintyme
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ArtBest23
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tfan
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| Posted: 08/16/17 12:30 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists.
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ArtBest23
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tfan
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tfan
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| Posted: 08/16/17 1:37 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists. |
So he was wrong. No surprise there. He says a lot of dumb shit.
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The rally took place in the daytime. Why are you posting a picture of a group much smaller than the rally attendees, and at night?
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ArtBest23
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/16/17 4:31 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists. |
So he was wrong. No surprise there. He says a lot of dumb shit.
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The rally took place in the daytime. Why are you posting a picture of a group much smaller than the rally attendees, and at night? |
Dude. The rally was organized by David Duke, the KKK, and the alt-right. They were the damn leaders of the rally.
If someone was not previously associated with these groups, was not a neo-nazi, white supremacist, or a white nationalist, then they became one when they joined the rally. Does it really matter what I am if I am marching under a nazi flag? Just my being there is enough to condemn me.
This wasn't some protest that white supremacists showed up to as well. This was a white supremacist rally.
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right.
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tfan
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:19 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists. |
So he was wrong. No surprise there. He says a lot of dumb shit.
|
The rally took place in the daytime. Why are you posting a picture of a group much smaller than the rally attendees, and at night? |
Dude. The rally was organized by David Duke, the KKK, and the alt-right. They were the damn leaders of the rally.
If someone was not previously associated with these groups, was not a neo-nazi, white supremacist, or a white nationalist, then they became one when they joined the rally. Does it really matter what I am if I am marching under a nazi flag? Just my being there is enough to condemn me.
This wasn't some protest that white supremacists showed up to as well. This was a white supremacist rally.
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right. |
You are saying "alt-right" and "white nationalist". What is your definition of those terms? I heard people on my local public radio station using the term "Republican alt-right" and then talking about neo-Nazis and white supremacists. I don't see a connection between the Republican party and those groups. I wouldn't call the militant masked Antifa protesters show up in Berkeley as the "Democratic alt-left".
I saw a few people on twitter that were part of a group who had been to the Berkeley confrontations this spring, who were going to go to a "save the Robert E Lee statue" rally in the south somewhere. In their pictures of the Berkeley rally, they weren't carrying torches or doing Nazi salutes and they weren't tweeting about neo-Nazism or white supremacy. Some were dressed for battle with Antifa with helmets and sticks, but mostly it was a lot of American flag and pro-America stuff and pro-Trump stuff. My assumption was that some people of that ilk were there in Charlottesville. They certainly don't show in the night time pictures that Art posted which looks like a very organized neo-Nazi type group. I haven't been able to locate pictures of the daytime attendees in the fenced in area before the Governor canceled it to see if they differ from those scary night rally pictures. But I can see where they wouldn't have been there if it was organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis - and that was made clear. My impression of this rally from reports was that it was to protest the statue removal, not that it was a coming together of neo-Nazis and white supremacists.
Last edited by tfan on 08/16/17 5:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:33 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right. |
If you're addressing just the Lee statue, I'm not convinced the issue is quite that clear-cut.
And some of these "tear it down" crusades are pretty questionable, like the removal of chief Justice Taney's statue in Maryland. Not quite the same as tearing down Jefferson Davis's statue.
There's no defense to a Davis statue. He represents one end of the continuim.
Taney wasn't a traitor. He was an attorney general and chief Justice of the US. The legal problem he had to address was largely created by the drafters of the Constitution, not by him. He didn't pull it out of thin air. And he was joined by six other justices. In a total vacuum, the outcome of his decision was reprehensible, and it was by modern standards wrong, but it wasn't decided in a vacuum. It was far more a result of his Jacksonian views of federalism than of racism.
Lee is a difficult case for other reasons. In the simplest terms, he was guilty of treason. But his record both pre and post war muddy the waters. BTW, Lee publicly opposed honoring Confederate generals and officials with statues. He would likely have opposed having a statue of himself erected.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:46 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
I saw a few people on twitter that were part of a group who had been to the Berkeley confrontations this spring, who were going to go to a "save the Robert E Lee statue" rally in the south somewhere. In their pictures of the Berkeley rally, they weren't carrying torches or doing Nazi salutes and they weren't tweeting about neo-Nazism or white supremacy. Some were dressed for battle with Antifa with helmets and sticks, but mostly it was a lot of American flag and pro-America stuff and pro-Trump stuff. My assumption was that some people of that ilk were there in Charlottesville. They certainly don't show in the nighttime pictures that Art posted. I haven't been able to locate pictures of the daytime attendees in the fenced in area before the Governor canceled it to see if they differ from those scary night rally picgtures. But I can see where they wouldn't have been there if it was organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis. However, I wouldn't say anyone who showed up to the rally which, while I see it called a "Unite the Right" rally had the purpose to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E Lee - became a neo-Nazi if they were there to keep the statue up. You could call them "confederate racists" or something similar. |
It most certainly was "organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis."
I have no idea what your agenda is, but either you're incredibly ignorant about the events and should do a lot more research before embarrassing yourself further, or you're simply sympathetic to the assholes.
Either way, I won't be taking your bait further.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:48 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists. |
So he was wrong. No surprise there. He says a lot of dumb shit.
|
The rally took place in the daytime. Why are you posting a picture of a group much smaller than the rally attendees, and at night? |
Dude. The rally was organized by David Duke, the KKK, and the alt-right. They were the damn leaders of the rally.
If someone was not previously associated with these groups, was not a neo-nazi, white supremacist, or a white nationalist, then they became one when they joined the rally. Does it really matter what I am if I am marching under a nazi flag? Just my being there is enough to condemn me.
This wasn't some protest that white supremacists showed up to as well. This was a white supremacist rally.
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right. |
You are saying "alt-right" and "white nationalist". What is your definition of those terms?
I saw a few people on twitter who had been to the Berkeley confrontations this spring, who were going to go to a "save the Robert E Lee statue" rally in the south somewhere. In their pictures of the Berkeley rally, they weren't carrying torches or doing Nazi salutes and they weren't tweeting about neo-Nazism or white supremacy. Some were dressed for battle with Antifa with Roman helmets and sticks, but mostly it was a lot of American flag and pro-America stuff and pro-Trump stuff. My assumption was that some people of that ilk were there in Charlottesville. I haven't been able to locate pictures of the daytime attendees in the fenced in area before the Governor canceled it to check that out. But I can see where they wouldn't have been there if it was organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis. |
You can see whatever you want, but the facts are that it was organized by white supremacist groups. This is not some sort of guess or supposition. These goups decided to hold a rally and filled out the paperwork to get a permit to do so. It was originally denied but a federal court ruled therwise. In other words, it was a white supremacist rally. It really doesn't matter what someone's reason for joining the rally is when you are joining a clan rally. Your presence is tantamount to support.
And you do know that "alt-right" was a word created by self declared white supremacist Richard Spencer in 2010, right? It has an actual definition that you can look up.
As for white nationalism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
And at the end of the day it was a rally to protect symbols of the confederacy, something that should not have a presence outside of a well contextualized museum exibit. Note that none of these statues were erected right after the Civil War, but as a part of Jim Crow. I've visted Germany and Austria numerous times over the years. You know what I have never seen? Statues of Nazi generals in public parks or government centers (or anywhere else really), nor schools named after them. Not even ones considered military geniuses like Rommel. No one there is worried about "honoring" their family members who died fighting for the Reich by sporting Nazi symbolism. There is no talk of it being an important part of their heritage/identity.
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pilight
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:56 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right. |
If you're addressing just the Lee statue, I'm not convinced the issue is quite that clear-cut.
And some of these "tear it down" crusades are pretty questionable, like the removal of chief Justice Taney's statue in Maryland. Not quite the same as tearing down Jefferson Davis's statue.
There's no defense to a Davis statue. He represents one end of the continuim.
Taney wasn't a traitor. He was an attorney general and chief Justice of the US. The legal problem he had to address was largely created by the drafters of the Constitution, not by him. He didn't pull it out of thin air. And he was joined by six other justices. In a total vacuum, the outcome of his decision was reprehensible, and it was by modern standards wrong, but it wasn't decided in a vacuum. It was far more a result of his Jacksonian views of federalism than of racism.
Lee is a difficult case for other reasons. In the simplest terms, he was guilty of treason. But his record both pre and post war muddy the waters. BTW, Lee publicly opposed honoring Confederate generals and officials with statues. He would likely have opposed having a statue of himself erected. |
I agree that the crusade can go too far. But I was speaking to the specifics of this statue. Honoring Lee for the good he did in his life is best served by a contextualized museum exibit and history books.
These are more nuanced figures that are famous for reasons other than their work in or for the confederacy. We should be mindful of that. Lee as the leader of the Confederate forces is, unfortunately, inextricable from his role during the war. And he was very aware of that during his life. As you noted, he himself would not have disagreed with this fact.
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tfan
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| Posted: 08/16/17 5:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
I saw a few people on twitter that were part of a group who had been to the Berkeley confrontations this spring, who were going to go to a "save the Robert E Lee statue" rally in the south somewhere. In their pictures of the Berkeley rally, they weren't carrying torches or doing Nazi salutes and they weren't tweeting about neo-Nazism or white supremacy. Some were dressed for battle with Antifa with helmets and sticks, but mostly it was a lot of American flag and pro-America stuff and pro-Trump stuff. My assumption was that some people of that ilk were there in Charlottesville. They certainly don't show in the nighttime pictures that Art posted. I haven't been able to locate pictures of the daytime attendees in the fenced in area before the Governor canceled it to see if they differ from those scary night rally picgtures. But I can see where they wouldn't have been there if it was organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis. However, I wouldn't say anyone who showed up to the rally which, while I see it called a "Unite the Right" rally had the purpose to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E Lee - became a neo-Nazi if they were there to keep the statue up. You could call them "confederate racists" or something similar. |
It most certainly was "organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis."
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I didn't challenge the assertion, so your comment is out of place.
| Quote: |
I have no idea what your agenda is, but either you're incredibly ignorant about the events and should do a lot more research before embarrassing yourself further, or you're simply sympathetic to the assholes.
Either way, I won't be taking your bait further. |
Dialogue with you is not something that I will miss.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:02 pm ::: |
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You do realize that isn't a statue right? And it includes an inscription that acknowledges he is also basically a war criminal....
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:03 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
You do realize that isn't a statue right? And it includes an inscription that acknowledges he is also basically a war criminal.... |
Yeah, but it's more than most of the Nazi leaders have
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tfan
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Yesterday said both sides were at fault and there were some "fine people" on both sides..... |
He also said that the people who attended the rally, which was about a Robert E. Lee statue remaining, were not all neo-Nazis or white supremacists. |
So he was wrong. No surprise there. He says a lot of dumb shit.
|
The rally took place in the daytime. Why are you posting a picture of a group much smaller than the rally attendees, and at night? |
Dude. The rally was organized by David Duke, the KKK, and the alt-right. They were the damn leaders of the rally.
If someone was not previously associated with these groups, was not a neo-nazi, white supremacist, or a white nationalist, then they became one when they joined the rally. Does it really matter what I am if I am marching under a nazi flag? Just my being there is enough to condemn me.
This wasn't some protest that white supremacists showed up to as well. This was a white supremacist rally.
Not to mention, what they were protesting was pretty disgusting in its own right. |
You are saying "alt-right" and "white nationalist". What is your definition of those terms?
I saw a few people on twitter who had been to the Berkeley confrontations this spring, who were going to go to a "save the Robert E Lee statue" rally in the south somewhere. In their pictures of the Berkeley rally, they weren't carrying torches or doing Nazi salutes and they weren't tweeting about neo-Nazism or white supremacy. Some were dressed for battle with Antifa with Roman helmets and sticks, but mostly it was a lot of American flag and pro-America stuff and pro-Trump stuff. My assumption was that some people of that ilk were there in Charlottesville. I haven't been able to locate pictures of the daytime attendees in the fenced in area before the Governor canceled it to check that out. But I can see where they wouldn't have been there if it was organized only by white supremacists and neo-Nazis. |
You can see whatever you want, but the facts are that it was organized by white supremacist groups. This is not some sort of guess or supposition. |
I didn't challenge your statement that it was, so your statement is out of place.
| Quote: |
These groups decided to hold a rally and filled out the paperwork to get a permit to do so. It was originally denied but a federal court ruled otherwise. In other words, it was a white supremacist rally. It really doesn't matter what someone's reason for joining the rally is when you are joining a clan rally. Your presence is tantamount to support. |
You aren't joining a clan rally if all you hear is that there is going to be a rally to protest a statue being removed.
| Quote: |
And you do know that "alt-right" was a word created by self-declared white supremacist Richard Spencer in 2010, right? It has an actual definition that you can look up. |
As for white nationalism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
[/quote]
I wasn't suggesting that you had coined those terms, just asking for your personal definition. The alt-right Wiki definition essentially says "white nationalism" (which is defined as either white supremacy or white-separatism).
It also says "far-right", but it is just another issue (like abortion, gay marriage) which I think shouldn't even be applied to left-right politics. Left/right should be reserved only for the role of government as far as the services it provides, and how it is involved in the economy.
| Quote: |
| And at the end of the day it was a rally to protect symbols of the Confederacy, something that should not have a presence outside of a well contextualized museum exibit. Note that none of these statues were erected right after the Civil War, but as a part of Jim Crow. I've visted Germany and Austria numerous times over the years. You know what I have never seen? Statues of Nazi generals in public parks or government centers (or anywhere else really), nor schools named after them. Not even ones considered military geniuses like Rommel. No one there is worried about "honoring" their family members who died fighting for the Reich by sporting Nazi symbolism. There is no talk of it being an important part of their heritage/identity. |
I have made no defense of the statue, and am fully aware of and on board with why we shouldn't have statues to people who fought for slavery or the flags of people who did. But Trump unintentionally made a case for getting rid of the monuments to Jefferson and Washington - both slave owners. Should they get a pass?
Last edited by tfan on 08/16/17 6:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ArtBest23
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:39 pm ::: |
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Washington and Jefferson didn't fight a war for the express purpose of maintaining slavery. It is a bad comparison. Not to mention these statues are being put up in the context of that war, not for some other accomplishment.
On top of that they were from a different era. The reality is that it is the late adopters of new philosophies that bare the distaste of history (thus the phrase "wrong side of history"). We are more accepting of people who lived in eras where the philosophy was relatively unknown or unpopular. In our day we see it with homophobia. There are a lot of people in our history who we would consider homophobes that we do not judge badly. But the Roy Moore's, Ted Cruz's, and Steve Kings of the world will be judged quite harshly and remembered to history as bigots. That is simply the way the world moves.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:46 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Washington and Jefferson didn't fight a war for the express purpose of maintaining slavery. It is a bad comparison. Not to mention these statues are being put up in the context of that war, not for some other accomplishment.
On top of that they were from a different era. The reality is that it is the late adopters of new philosophies that bare the distaste of history (thus the phrase "wrong side of history"). We are more accepting of people who lived in eras where the philosophy was relatively unknown or unpopular. In our day we see it with homophobia. There are a lot of people in our history who we would consider homophobes that we do not judge badly. But the Roy Moore's, Ted Cruz's, and Steve Kings of the world will be judged quite harshly and remembered to history as bigots. That is simply the way the world moves. |
It's far simpler than that. Washington and Jefferson helped found the United States. Jefferson Davis and, yes, Lee, committed treason against the United States. Doesn't even matter their motivations. They're traitors. Nothing more really needs to be said.
It's a imbecilic comparison. Hard to believe anyone other than Richard Spencer and his followers would echo Trump's nonsense.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/16/17 6:48 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Plaque reads "At this place, on 14 October 1944, field marshal Erwin Rommel was forced to commit suicide. He took the poison cup and sacrificed himself to save his family's life from Hitler's Nazi henchmen." |
Yeah, this also demonstrates the uniqueness of Rommel. There is a narrative that exists about him and how he was opposed to the atrocities of the Reich. It is only recently that that has begun to be questioned by historians. In these sorts of "memorials" (very limited ones at that) it is that narrative that is being remembered, the idea of a German Patriot, who stood against Hitler and died because of it. Under those circumstances, is it really a Nazi symbol if it repudiates the Reich? It would be interesting to see if this gets an extra inscription as well eventually. The other inscription that I referenced was added later once that previous narrative started to unravel.
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