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Fever @ Liberty - 8/08/17
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Who will win this game?
Fever
18%
 18%  [ 4 ]
Liberty
81%
 81%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 22

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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 17615



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PostPosted: 08/09/17 11:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
root_thing wrote:
toad455 wrote:
glad we got the win, but Prince & Rodgers really need to get out of their shooting slump.


Prince is in a shooting slump. Rodgers has gone insane.


For real bro. When Sugar penetrates, her shot has a better chance of hitting the backboard and missing the rim than it has of going in that cylindrical thing with the net attached.


For me, it was wonderful but also distressing to watch Sugar Rodgers in the three-point contest during the All Star Game. Yes, the shots she's put up while penetrating have often been quite dubious. But she's missed SO many open shots this season, shots that she is obviously capable of making a much higher percentage of the time. And there have been too many games where she seems to go O for her first four, five, six shots.


And to add to this, it's another kind of repetitive thing on my part, but she's attempting more and more penetrating shots of late. I was talking with my buddy about this on the way home. My thought is that the coaching staff isn't discouraging the shot selection. In fact, one of the very first plays in the part where she entered the game was a beautiful curl for a penetration right down the middle of the lane. She followed up by bricking the layup. So my thought process is that she's GOT to be making some of these shots in practice. If not, by now I'd think they'd be highly discouraged by the coaching staff instead of them running one of the first plays after she entered to set up a penetration for her. Just my take and I could be wrong. But it seems like the more she struggles with penetrations, the more she tries them. Which would lead a person to believe that the coaching staff isn't discouraging the attempts. But, your guess is as good as mine if that's the case.


I mean, generally speaking a layup is a good shot. Bria Hartley missed bunnies all last game, but do we really want her to stop taking open layups? The same would be true of any player..even if they've missed the bunnies all season. I'd imagine the coaching philosophy is "The player knows they're doing something wrong. They'll adjust eventually. I'm not going to discourage going to the basket for layups."

I'm also not sure I buy that Prince and Sugar's problems are because teams are focusing their defense on them. IMO, that's not the case. Teams are focusing their defense on Tina. Period. And they don't care who the player comes off of in order to double Tina.

I would say a huge difference between the driving of Prince and Sugar, vs the driving of Zellous and Hartley, is that when Hartley and Zellous go to the basket, Tina isn't in the paint. They'll either use Tina as a screen, or backdoor cut scenario, or Tina is outside of the paint when they drive, ready for a free throw line jumper. The player that is guarding them inevitably has to choose between staying with them or staying near Tina.

Meanwhile, Sugar and Prince will go to the basket at any point. They can beat their man, but they inevitably drive right into a crowded paint..where Tina, the player guarding Tina, and the other players on the court have sunken towards Tina are waiting. IMO, Prince and Sugar are used to being able to drive at any time because they can beat their man at any time, but they run right into trouble...which causes a difficult shot, and poor shooting percentage on bunnies.



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 08/09/17 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Re Kia Vaughn: Let's not forget her aversion to contact. She's shot 14 free throws this season in 360 minutes (1.4 per 36 minutes).

Sami Whitcomb, a three-point specialist, shoots 1.8 per 36.

More to the point, Erlana Larkins, a post who is not a focal point of the Indiana offense, shoots 2.2 per 36. Elizabeth Williams shoots 3.1 per 36. And so on ...

The lack of FTA not only limits Vaughn's offense but it allows other teams' posts to stay on the floor because they are never in foul trouble.


Excellent point. It also allows opposing posts to dig in and dictate contact rather than vice versa. I really thought Bill might be good for Kia but it looks like she is what she is. A player who shoots fewer FT per minute than Whitcomb and who blocks fewer shots per minute than Diggins. This is exactly why I wanted to give Zahui a try. Whatever Zahui isn't, one positive is she initiates contact rather than being the recipient of it.


Vaughn may not draw fouls, but it certainly isn't an aversion to contact. She plays a very physical game on both ends of the court. However, Kia doesn't lean into the defender or move toward the basket while shooting. She's also not the player who gets the ball when you're trying to exploit a team being over the foul limit. Lastly, if Kia is not important to the defensive game plan, there's frankly not a lot of urgency for opponents to challenge too hard and risk a foul.

Whitcomb is not just a three-point specialist. She handles the ball a good deal and is certainly willing to drive. Sami is also a very dogged defender who is used to pressure the ball. She causes a lot of loose balls. All that activity leads to fouls.



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LibFan25



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 285
Location: Yonkers, NY


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PostPosted: 08/09/17 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All of you are making really good points, especially about Kia vaughn. I expect BIG changes this off-season.

We are definitely gonna see some trades and free agent signing. No one will be safe this off-season other then Charles lol


NYL_WNBA_FAN



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 11339



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PostPosted: 08/10/17 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
root_thing wrote:
toad455 wrote:
glad we got the win, but Prince & Rodgers really need to get out of their shooting slump.


Prince is in a shooting slump. Rodgers has gone insane.


For real bro. When Sugar penetrates, her shot has a better chance of hitting the backboard and missing the rim than it has of going in that cylindrical thing with the net attached.


For me, it was wonderful but also distressing to watch Sugar Rodgers in the three-point contest during the All Star Game. Yes, the shots she's put up while penetrating have often been quite dubious. But she's missed SO many open shots this season, shots that she is obviously capable of making a much higher percentage of the time. And there have been too many games where she seems to go O for her first four, five, six shots.


And to add to this, it's another kind of repetitive thing on my part, but she's attempting more and more penetrating shots of late. I was talking with my buddy about this on the way home. My thought is that the coaching staff isn't discouraging the shot selection. In fact, one of the very first plays in the part where she entered the game was a beautiful curl for a penetration right down the middle of the lane. She followed up by bricking the layup. So my thought process is that she's GOT to be making some of these shots in practice. If not, by now I'd think they'd be highly discouraged by the coaching staff instead of them running one of the first plays after she entered to set up a penetration for her. Just my take and I could be wrong. But it seems like the more she struggles with penetrations, the more she tries them. Which would lead a person to believe that the coaching staff isn't discouraging the attempts. But, your guess is as good as mine if that's the case.


I mean, generally speaking a layup is a good shot. Bria Hartley missed bunnies all last game, but do we really want her to stop taking open layups? The same would be true of any player..even if they've missed the bunnies all season. I'd imagine the coaching philosophy is "The player knows they're doing something wrong. They'll adjust eventually. I'm not going to discourage going to the basket for layups."

I'm also not sure I buy that Prince and Sugar's problems are because teams are focusing their defense on them. IMO, that's not the case. Teams are focusing their defense on Tina. Period. And they don't care who the player comes off of in order to double Tina.

I would say a huge difference between the driving of Prince and Sugar, vs the driving of Zellous and Hartley, is that when Hartley and Zellous go to the basket, Tina isn't in the paint. They'll either use Tina as a screen, or backdoor cut scenario, or Tina is outside of the paint when they drive, ready for a free throw line jumper. The player that is guarding them inevitably has to choose between staying with them or staying near Tina.

Meanwhile, Sugar and Prince will go to the basket at any point. They can beat their man, but they inevitably drive right into a crowded paint..where Tina, the player guarding Tina, and the other players on the court have sunken towards Tina are waiting. IMO, Prince and Sugar are used to being able to drive at any time because they can beat their man at any time, but they run right into trouble...which causes a difficult shot, and poor shooting percentage on bunnies.


With respect to you, I watch every second of every game. I watch many games twice and break down nearly every play. Sugar's not just missing bunnies. She's missing off-balance runners from a variety of awkward angles. This is compounded by her questionable ball-handling and having no left hand. It makes her play way too fast, which is why she sometimes shoots teardrops off the backboard that don't touch the rim. Hartley can, OTOH, handle with either hand and make shots going left as she moves toward the basket. She missed two layups last game, but that's not a whole season pattern for her. Unlike Sugar, Hartley also has a somewhat functional mid-range game...an area of the court that outside of Tina, Hartley and the June version of Z that has really hurt the Libs this year. Sugar is .379 inside of 5 feet. But even in those instances, there's a lot of either contested shots in there or ones she makes into lower-percentage shots due to body control issues and not being squared to the basket. From 6 to 10 feet she shooting .143. That's 3 field goals made all season from that distance. If you take that out along with the 2 for 14 from outside 27 feet, which includes a lot of halfcourt buzzer-beaters, you'd have a more efficient player. From 22-26 feet Sugar shoots .394. That's the shot she should be, and would be taking more often if the Liberty had a creative PG to set her up in that area of the floor.

Further, teams rarely double off Sugar to get to Tina, and in fact more and more teams are trapping her on pick and roll situations because they know her handle and ability to pass out of it is limited to the nearest post slipping the screen or popping out. Teams rarely double off Prince without having her as a predominant player to attack in their defensive rotations. Hartley on the other hand has shot mostly wide-open 3's for a month. Couple that with the fact that Piph is bricking mid-range shots that she was great at in 2015 and earlier this year, and there you go. I've given up on Sugar being a consistent player in 2017. I still have hope for Piph, mainly because Piph maintains body control and takes good shots. Since those have fallen for a year and a quarter of her healthy Liberty tenure, I have hope that maybe she will find herself from there again this year.

The one area I agree is yes, this is a low-post system. As such, it's harder to penetrate. I've made that point numerous times since 2014. There's a reason someone like Erica Wheeler could look somewhat functional with Atlanta, drop 33 for Indy Tuesday, but look totally non-functional in the Libs' offense when she was here. But that's all the more reason for Sugar not to try it 5 or 6 times if she's having no success with it. Let the game come to you instead of compounding what's not working.



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