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Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump
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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 9:55 am    ::: Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump Reply Reply with quote

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/finally-a-poll-trump-will-like-clinton-even-more-unpopular

And if the Dems repeat their blunder by nominating someone like Warren or Harris in 2020, they'll produce the same result.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 10:51 am    ::: Re: Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/finally-a-poll-trump-will-like-clinton-even-more-unpopular

And if the Dems repeat their blunder by nominating someone like Warren or Harris in 2020, they'll produce the same result.


Hmm..what do Clinton, Warren, and Harris all have in common...



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 11:26 am    ::: Re: Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/finally-a-poll-trump-will-like-clinton-even-more-unpopular

And if the Dems repeat their blunder by nominating someone like Warren or Harris in 2020, they'll produce the same result.


Sen. Kamala Harris Is Running For President, Democrat Donors Say

Dem donors buzzing about Kamala Harris

If Kamala Harris wins the nomination the country is going to hear over and over again about the time she refused to seek the death penalty for the killer of an SF policeman, even after Diane Feinstein, among others, called for it at his funeral.

Harris is even more pro illegal immigrant than Clinton became. Being pro illegal immigrant to some degree is considered a winning national formula by both Democrats and Republicans, but Trump should have put some doubt about how to handle that issue (it gets clouded by other issues including job export). Chris Matthews was lamenting on election night that Clinton didn't take some position on illegal immigration that while going for another amnesty, also included strong enforcement of laws stopping the hiring of illegal workers. He felt that the current policy of essentially no enforcement, was what the RNC and DNC both wanted, but that the country felt differently. That probably isn't true though, as only one of 22 candidates made illegal immigration (semi-) enforcement an issue, so the others must not have been hearing much about it. The majority of people must favor, or at least accept, the status quo - no enforcement of illegal hiring.




Last edited by tfan on 07/19/17 7:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 11:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Warren is too old to run for president.

I would not equate Hillary Clinton with Warren on Harris.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 4:53 pm    ::: Re: Even now, Hillary is still less popular than Trump Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/finally-a-poll-trump-will-like-clinton-even-more-unpopular

And if the Dems repeat their blunder by nominating someone like Warren or Harris in 2020, they'll produce the same result.


Hmm..what do Clinton, Warren, and Harris all have in common...


Is this the Jeopardy thread?


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 5:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What is "highly partisan and divisive".


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What is

They're not obedient lapdogs of the Koch Bros/Fossil Fuel Oligarchy like the GOP?



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 7:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
What is

They're not obedient lapdogs of the Koch Bros/Fossil Fuel Oligarchy like the GOP?


The rich pumped a massive amount of into the Clinton campaign and they go to "$50,000 a plate" dinners to see Obama, Clinton, Harris, etc. so the Democrats are somebody's lap dog too.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/19/17 8:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
What is

They're not obedient lapdogs of the Koch Bros/Fossil Fuel Oligarchy like the GOP?


The rich pumped a massive amount of into the Clinton campaign and they go to "$50,000 a plate" dinners to see Obama, Clinton, Harris, etc. so the Democrats are somebody's lap dog too.


You mean like the $675,000 Hillary received for three private secret closed-door speeches to Goldman Sachs?

Where she could tell them different things than she was telling the rest of us?


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 2:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
What is

They're not obedient lapdogs of the Koch Bros/Fossil Fuel Oligarchy like the GOP?


lol. I promise you they are the obedient lapdogs of someone you'd hate.


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah folks, I know the deal, but the Koch Oligarchy is worse than the Wall St backers of Clinton, et al., by a country mile. It's not even close.

To claim Clinton is worse is bullshit. Unless, of course, you're a million/billionaire. Do we have any here, at Rebkell?



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 1:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes. Cool



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Yeah folks, I know the deal, but the Koch Oligarchy is worse than the Wall St backers of Clinton, et al., by a country mile. It's not even close.

To claim Clinton is worse is bullshit. Unless, of course, you're a million/billionaire. Do we have any here, at Rebkell?


The Kochs are part of the fat-cat Republican Party's business-centric network of shadow players. The type has been there forever. We once HAD a political party that opposed them on our behalf. We don't anymore. So it's not really about looking at the "Koch Oligarchy" (I'm laughing at that one. Come to the coast of California for a less quaint perspective on the entrenched societal oligarchy that wields FAR greater control over your life than the freaking Koch Bros ever will) and saying, yes, the Koch types STILL suck. Republicans are horrible, no shit.

This country is run by two factions that are EXTREMELY sympathetic to each other and COMPLETELY unsympathetic to the needs of the American people. Voting for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is and was nothing more than PRETENDING, in some old timey mindset, that you're doing the right thing, the only thing a forward thinking person could do, in supporting the Democrat. But inequality exploded under Obama.

That's because Clinton and Obama and all the rest answer to people I know very well. Because I live in the thick of the Democratic Party's ATM machine. California. BELIEVE ME, these people out here CARE about inequality. lol They LOVE IT. You don't see them or know them. I do. They fucking LOVE inequality. It is the banquet of their LIVES. And they are 'liberals.' And they control the Democratic Party.

You guys posted on some silly Klan shit last week. Some crap about how you hope these are the last of ... oh let me just find it...

cthskzfn wrote:
here's hoping this is the last gasp of racist, white male hierarchy in this society.


There was a paragraph here. I deleted it. In its place, let me find the perfect animated gif to sum up my thoughts.



So let's take your not as bad as the Koch's California Democratic Party funding rich liberals. Of which there are more than you probably can imagine. You DO know they LONG AGO formed homeowners associations everywhere in California and control WHO precisely they allow to buy into their neighborhoods, right? You DO know they DON'T let black people buy homes in their neighborhoods? You knew that, right? And you know they're WHITE, right?

And please know they are good liberal Democrats.



So if the Democratic Party is funded and controlled by people who have the power to FOREVER get away with purely naked racial discrimination, which serves the maintaining of the literal embodiment of their own (white) supremacy... then what exactly were you saying about the Koch Bros again? lol.


Howee



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dearest Jammerbirdi:

You speak with such conviction, on things we mere mortals in The East (South/Midwest/Pacific Northwest/etc.) can only marvel at. It almost reverberates with the overtones of a Limbaughwellian soliloquy. I can only say: Prove It. I mean, I don't totally DOUBT you, but....the Utterly Comprehensive Nature of the problem which you define is a tad infathomable.

Re: No diff on Presidential occupant? I've long maintained that theory: they are mere figureheads, puppets in the hands of corporate lords. Elections are Red Herring charades, meant to instill a sense of 'control' amongst the populace: "I get to pick!" Unfortunately, this past Red Herring was swallowed up by Jaws.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 4:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes. lol. Could it actually be the unfathomable case that you precious politically engaged Rebkellians don't know politics in America as well as you think you do? You mock folks with the classic progressive charge of voting against their own best interests. How do you know that you aren't just like them? Just the dupes of the other party.

Republican politics is irrelevant at this point. You don't understand anything (figuratively speaking) about the politics of this country or your own party if you don't try to begin to understand California. Which I've only been saying here for the last ten years or more. Illegal immigration? You don't anything about illegal immigration. It's an abstract concept. Illegal immigration is inside of me and it has been for 30 years. Have I had a callous on my finger in 30 years? In my gut, do I know that I never have to lift a finger in an act of manual labor again as long as I live? This stuff is inside of me. I breath differently than you do because of illegal immigration. Eat different. Live in a different economic system and realty from you all because of illegal immigration.

Do I know what REAL white supremacy is in a way that you likely can't imagine? I would suggest that I do. I live in the protective bubble of true actual white supremacy. Others have taken care of making this world the way that it is for me. All I had to do was show up white in California and act like I belonged. White supremacy took care of the rest.

You know. When I talk to the folks back home (as we'll call them) about Trump and politics and lib'rals, there's a certain level of arrogance that they have, you all know what I'm talking about, in people who didn't even go to college but who have bought hook line and sinker the propaganda of the right and now Trump.

There's so much arrogance here, too. (Meaning you guys) Seriously. You're smarter. But you don't know this stuff. And you can't hardly believe it's even true so it has a tendency to shoot right over your heads. You ask me to prove it? I'll shoot some more stuff at you, some links and sources, but I'm never going to be able to prove anything to any of you. It would be as impossible as getting through to the people who have been brainwashed by right wing media for the last two decades. You HAVE to believe that you have a true and actual understanding of what's happening in this country. You'd bash me over the head with a potted plant before you'd give up the things you believe about politics in America.

Give me a minute on sourcing my claims but in the meantime I will repeat what must be the most foreign concept to so many of you and I would suggest the most important takeaway from my perspective. The liberals who fund and control the Democratic Party in America LOVE economic and every other kind of inequality. Exclusivity is really the most important thing in the world to them. They HAVE that now, though. lol. They know how to maintain it and it's really not something that's being threatened in this country. The reason their wealth power and influence is not under any even remote threat is because they have taken away the Democratic Party from those who might use it to fight something like economic inequality. Meaning what was once the traditional constituency of the Democratic Party, labor, the working and middle classes.

So I would ask you to tell me who is worse, Dems or Repubs, but if you don't believe any of what I'm asserting here then I guess your answer would be a forgone conclusion.


pilight



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So I would ask you to ell me who is worse, Dems or Repubs, but if you don't believe any of what I'm asserting here then I guess your answer would be a forgone conclusion.


You know my answer: They are identical. Elect an entire congress of Democrats and a Democrat president and things would be exactly as they are now.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 4:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
So I would ask you to ell me who is worse, Dems or Repubs, but if you don't believe any of what I'm asserting here then I guess your answer would be a forgone conclusion.


You know my answer: They are identical. Elect an entire congress of Democrats and a Democrat president and things would be exactly as they are now.


You've been saying it for years and I have to admit that I now fully agree with you. Oh the legislation passed would look different. But as long as the Democratic Party answers to those who now bankroll it, nothing in terms of effectively overhauling the fundementals of this economic system which so rewards those with money while continually ravaging the less affluent would ever come to pass.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Expanding income and wealth inequality is the single biggest social issue in this country.

I don't see that the trajectory on that skyrocketing gap was significantly different whether Reagan or a Bush or Clinton or Obama were in the White House.

The money has been flowing to the same tiny slice of people regardless of which party has been in power.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/20/17 8:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Expanding income and wealth inequality is the single biggest social issue in this country.

I don't see that the trajectory on that skyrocketing gap was significantly different whether Reagan or a Bush or Clinton or Obama were in the White House.

The money has been flowing to the same tiny slice of people regardless of which party has been in power.

Yes. It is all part of the neo-lib movement. The Democrats abandoned the New Deal policies and traded social progressiveness for economic progressiveness. Basically, income inequality has been skyrocketing since the Dems allowed the Republicans to gut unions, lower taxes on the highest earners, and not scale things like minimum wage and overtime exemptions to inflation. In other words as much as we lambast Reagan for the disaster that was trickle-down economics, the policies instituted by the Democrats bought into the same hokum too. But we feel good about the Dems because at least they push for equal rights.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 07/21/17 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Yes. lol. Could it actually be the unfathomable case that you precious politically engaged Rebkellians don't know politics in America as well as you think you do? You mock folks with the classic progressive charge of voting against their own best interests. How do you know that you aren't just like them? Just the dupes of the other party.

Yes. Anything is POSSIBLE. But....I don't see anyone here ('cept one maybe??) who speaks in irrefutable, unequivocal terms about What Is Truth In Politics. I see our dialogue here as more about sharing perspectives and ruminating over the various elements of a VERY complicated equation (and I don't mean the $100 theft thread, either....LOL! Razz)

jammerbirdi wrote:
Republican politics is irrelevant at this point. You don't understand anything (figuratively speaking) about the politics of this country or your own party if you don't try to begin to understand California.....I breath differently than you do because of illegal immigration. Eat different. Live in a different economic system and realty from you all because of illegal immigration.

Do I know what REAL white supremacy is in a way that you likely can't imagine? I would suggest that I do. I live in the protective bubble of true actual white supremacy. Others have taken care of making this world the way that it is for me. All I had to do was show up white in California and act like I belonged. White supremacy took care of the rest.

There's so much arrogance here, too. (Meaning you guys) Seriously. You're smarter. But you don't know this stuff. And you can't hardly believe it's even true so it has a tendency to shoot right over your heads.....You'd bash me over the head with a potted plant before you'd give up the things you believe about politics in America.

Living in "bubbles" is never conducive to ultimate objectivity. And we all have our own bubbles, no? Nonetheless, I certainly can't judge your perspective as anything but YOURS. But. I can offer the counterpoint that I know MANY people who live in California, and they do not *live* your perspective/concerns, as you project them. I don't think they have your level of affluence, tho....and that's obviously a factor. Overall tho, I will gladly concede that your general perspectives are more valid than many, simply because a boy from Alliquippa, whose mama was a sharecropper, and is now living in LA, has a unique experiential base.

jammerbirdi wrote:
The liberals who fund and control the Democratic Party in America LOVE economic and every other kind of inequality. Exclusivity is really the most important thing in the world to them. They HAVE that now, though.....So I would ask you to tell me who is worse, Dems or Repubs, but if you don't believe any of what I'm asserting here then I guess your answer would be a forgone conclusion.


THIS I concur with wholeheartedly. I would also posit that THIS is the status quo under which each of us was born: it is not a New and Strange Thing. And....for each of us who is here--with the time/resources/health/education/etc., to afford electricity and a computer to enjoy--THIS system has "worked" fairly well. No?



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 07/21/17 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My answer is in this thread:

http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=92186


I've been saying, likely since before pilight was born, that the Dems and Reps are flip sides of the same coin.

And, just as the same coin has different sides, so are there differences in the parties.

The New Deal was enacted by a party of white guys led by a millionaire white guy.

The Dems, since Clinton, have become more like Reps than FDR Dems.

This is why I backed Bernie- he is a New Deal/FDR Democratic politician, regardless of his chosen party label.

That there are rich white liberals who bankroll the Dem. party and would prefer to keep the riff-raff (anyone not in their class) out of their neighborhoods, schools, restaurants, etc etc etc is nothing new. This is America, after all.

I really don't know who here you think you're educating. Wink



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/21/17 12:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
And, just as the same coin has different sides, so are there differences in the parties.


And like a coin, the differences from one side to the other are just window dressing. You seem to believe the coin is worth more if it's face down than if it's face up.



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cthskzfn



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Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 07/21/17 12:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
And, just as the same coin has different sides, so are there differences in the parties.


And like a coin, the differences from one side to the other are just window dressing. You seem to believe the coin is worth more if it's face down than if it's face up.


Thank you!

Show me why you believe that if the 3 branches of the Federal gov't were currently under Dem control, that:

-Gorsuch would be a SCJ

-Tax cuts for the 1%, disguised as a healthcare bill that would gut Medicaid, increase premiums for seniors, etc., would be a possibility.

-Obama environmental protection laws would be undone.

-The Russia problem would be the same.

To name a few.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 07/21/17 12:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
My answer is in this thread:

http://boards.rebkell.net/viewtopic.php?t=92186


I've been saying, likely since before pilight was born, that the Dems and Reps are flip sides of the same coin.

And, just as the same coin has different sides, so are there differences in the parties.

The New Deal was enacted by a party of white guys led by a millionaire white guy.

The Dems, since Clinton, have become more like Reps than FDR Dems.

This is why I backed Bernie- he is a New Deal/FDR Democratic politician, regardless of his chosen party label.

That there are rich white liberals who bankroll the Dem. party and would prefer to keep the riff-raff (anyone not in their class) out of their neighborhoods, schools, restaurants, etc etc etc is nothing new. This is America, after all.

I really don't know who here you think you're educating. Wink


Dude I'm laying it DOWN. Telling it like it is. And get it while it's hot because this shit takes up WAY too much of my time. Very Happy

And it is becoming ever more rare for anyone to put the truth into the faces of fellow progressive lefties like most everyone else here. Please. These are the unspoken truths. And NOT just that the Ds and Rs are tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb. (Yes, I came up with Ralph Nadar and Noam Chomsky, too.)

This is different, these are different times. Economic inequality has gone through the roof in America. It has been called the New Gilded Age. Riding the crest of that new Gilded Age are the people who fund and control the Democratic Party. I'm sorry, but all of this IS new. And COMPLETELY under discussed.

Because the devil is in the details, those details are becoming ever more off-limits as the party and the country itself moves towards a focus on social issue and identity politics and away from economic issues of the poor and working classes, and the issues of those in the rust belt, the Trump voters etc. whose concerns are so pushed to the side that EVEN HERE people have taken to expressing the wish that they all eventually should just die off and be gone with their racism and white privilege.

Seriously. YOU, cthskzfn, mock and deride people who voted for Trump as silly stupid white people. It doesn't matter that Trump is a total disaster. Those people ACTUALLY have the Democratic Party's number and are acting accordingly. They were absolutely right to vote for Trump and they will remain right, right up until the day he does something so bad that it destroys the country, which, as bad as he is, isn't likely to happen.

For these people NOT to have voted for Trump, would have been to cast a vote for the very architects of their economic decline and the system that has destroyed their identities and everything this country used to mean to them. And you call them stupid and silly while people here are crying that Hillary lost. lol. They didn't vote for a traditional Republican in the primaries and they rejected the establishment Democrat. Bravo! And they are going to do it AGAIN and again. And that's not a bad thing, it's a GOOD thing.

And for all of that you call them silly and stupid? Even a dog, if you beat it and starve it, will eventually wise up.


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PostPosted: 07/21/17 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And for all of that you call them silly and stupid? Even a dog, if you beat it and starve it, will eventually wise up.

I think the "stupid" comments are based on the idea that Trump conned them. He ran as anti-establishment and populist, he promised he wasn't going to touch medicare/medicaid/social security, that his health care plan would insure more people with better insurance at lower costs. He promised to "drain the swamp".

But then he gets into office and fills his cabinet with establishment players. He supports tax cuts on the rich. He looks to cut medicaid. His budget cuts programs and services that are designed to actually help working class Americans. He ran as an "outsider" but he is still a billionaire who seems to be helping out other billionaires first and foremost.

So congrats to them on voting anti-establishment. What they got was establishment policies enacted by a ineffectual, potentially criminal, narcissist who is a national embarrassment and who has diminished our clout and leadership on the international stage. Perhaps an arguement could have been made for accepting the dumpster fire if he hadn't proved himself to be just one more of those gilded monstrosities looking out only for himself and his own wealth.

And that all of this was clear before he was elected. It was clear he was a con at that time, a vacuous demagogue in love with his own mental image of himself.



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