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Mystics @ Liberty - 7/16/17
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Who will win this game?
Mystics
40%
 40%  [ 8 ]
Liberty
60%
 60%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 1:29 pm    ::: Mystics @ Liberty - 7/16/17 Reply Reply with quote

New York, NY - 3:00 PM ET
TV: NBATV, MSG, Monumental
Online: League Pass

Game info:
http://www.wnba.com/game/20170716/WASNYL



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd assume no Hill & Delle Donne?



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 6:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Who gets the start for Hill, Cloud or Latta?



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd think Cloud.



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 8:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

After further review, it looks like the Mystics didn't even start Hill for the game against Indiana. They went big against tiny Indiana with a starting lineup of Toliver, Ruffin-Pratt, Delle Donne, Meesseman, and Thomas. How long have they been doing that?



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 8:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Definitely a must win for New York. A lose and a Dallas win vs. Chicago means we'd drop down to 9th.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 8:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Talk about dreading a game. I'm seriously not even looking forward to it. Lose to D.C. without EDD and Hill, then who can we even beat? Win the game, well, we're supposed to win it anyway. The sick thing is if we win today and win Wednesday we are still in position to control our destiny as far as a top 4 seed. While there's no indication that will happen, sooner or later people who are capable of hitting shots will actually start hitting them. Right? 🤷🏼‍♂️



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let's review stuff we wouldn't have expected before the year started:

-Kiah is a non-entity on D
-Sugar and Piph combining for 35% shooting
-Boyd's Achilles tear
-Bec shooting less than 30%
-Zahui scoring 3 ppg WORSE than last year's 5 per game

If you look at the above list, for Zahui and Bec we'd have been happy to just get last year's numbers. Kiah not being a D presence is a major surprise. Piph was WNBA player of the week a month ago. Now she's on pace to have a career-worst shooting season. If you told me before the season started that ALL the above would happen I'd have told you that you were nuts. And I've said we'd be even worse than 8-9. Ugh.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Let's review stuff we wouldn't have expected before the year started:

-Kiah is a non-entity on D
-Sugar and Piph combining for 35% shooting
-Boyd's Achilles tear
-Bec shooting less than 30%
-Zahui scoring 3 ppg WORSE than last year's 5 per game

If you look at the above list, for Zahui and Bec we'd have been happy to just get last year's numbers. Kiah not being a D presence is a major surprise. Piph was WNBA player of the week a month ago. Now she's on pace to have a career-worst shooting season. If you told me before the season started that ALL the above would happen I'd have told you that you were nuts. And I've said we'd be even worse than 8-9. Ugh.


I'd add in the statistically night and day without Piph and Vaughn...and I don't find it as flukey as most people are posting.

But I don't see this as a 2014 Pondexter situation either...It's that Piph cant run point at the same pace as we ran it without her...we were more up tempo in those 5 wins and it showed. We need a way to quicken our pace and movement.

And whatever the hell is wrong with Stokes...FIX IT



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the pace thing is a mixed bag. I think they ran stuff that over the long term would be easy to scout and wear them down if they ran it every game. Also Hartley is somewhat faster than Piph but not a PG either. I think this would have happened either way.

Even when LA is at the point, we don't have offensive performance like we did during the win streak when she was out there.

That said, the slow pace IS a problem. Even if you could get out and run and have Sugar hit 3s in transition that would be a weapon. How it gets fixed is probably making some tough shots. Confidence gives added energy to run. The lack of confidence shows in every aspect of their offensive play right now.

And...we need Stokes to be Stokes. She's a factor in transition play at both ends when she's playing well.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's official: Tayler Hill, ACL, out for season.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 11:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I think the pace thing is a mixed bag. I think they ran stuff that over the long term would be easy to scout and wear them down if they ran it every game. Also Hartley is somewhat faster than Piph but not a PG either. I think this would have happened either way.

Even when LA is at the point, we don't have offensive performance like we did during the win streak when she was out there.

That said, the slow pace IS a problem. Even if you could get out and run and have Sugar hit 3s in transition that would be a weapon. How it gets fixed is probably making some tough shots. Confidence gives added energy to run. The lack of confidence shows in every aspect of their offensive play right now.

And...we need Stokes to be Stokes. She's a factor in transition play at both ends when she's playing well.


you want fast pace? then Liambeer should start Hartley and Stokes and give them more minutes.

yes Hartley have been a mess just like Stokes but when we were wining they was pushin the pace running down the court and getting easy buckets, so did Zellous. Go watch the Wings game at Dallas if you DVR'd it. that was a fun game to watch, alot of easy buckets and scored 102 points, yes Dallas is a horrible defensive team but the Libs don't ever rarely score over 100 points.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I remember. I agree about Stokes. On Hartley not so sure. Yeah we ran against a terrible defensive team. And yeah we ran a ton of quick post entry plays. All stuff that teams are denying us now because they're ready for it. Which makes Hartley into a half court player in a post entry offense. I think the win streak was a by-product of high-energy desperation. Not sustainable long term in of itself without the better players on the team making plays.

In 2015, prior to the last two games that the Libs didn't try to win, they were 17-5 with Piph. If Hartley was a passer, I'd agree get her in there. But she isn't, and actually has messed up several transition opportunities in recent weeks due to lack of vision. The issues NY has aren't individual issues. It's getting team flow and simply making open shots. They've had a ton of them in the last two games.

And I agree on starting Stokes. But she has to earn the minutes too.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
It's official: Tayler Hill, ACL, out for season.


Let's discuss the upcoming game y'all. No Tayler Hill. Likely no EDD.

Mystics post rotation:
K.Thomas, THawk, Emma Meeseman, with Asia Taylor available.

Backcourt rotation:
KTO, Cloud, TRP, Latta, with SWK, J.Simms available.

You're gonna see the Styx deep bench today.

C'mon Styx fans! No way we let this thread turn into a LibFan rosterbation.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MYSTICS Starters:
Latta, Toliver, TRP, Meesseman, Thomas

LIBERTY Starters:
Hartley, Prince, Zellous, Charles, Vaughn



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Now THIS is Liberty basketball!! 30 first quarter points!



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Game is blacked out on NBA TV AND MSG. Meanwhile, the SA-CT game IS on CSN.

W. T. F. Mad



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
MYSTICS Starters:
Latta, Toliver, TRP, Meesseman, Thomas

LIBERTY Starters:
Hartley, Prince, Zellous, Charles, Vaughn


And no surprise...injured Mystics making the Liberty look like All*Stars. Can't believe Mike T started both shrimps. Only thing I can think of is that Cloud will anchor the second string.

And now SWK enters the game as the Tayler Hill clone, along with Cloud.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does Ros ever have any insight to offer other than "so-and-so is playing with a ton of energy!" and "shooting=Golden State Warriorzzz!"



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

what was that clusterf*ck by the refs and the FTs?!?!?



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sigur3 wrote:
Does Ros ever have any insight to offer other than "so-and-so is playing with a ton of energy!" and "shooting=Golden State Warriorzzz!"


She talks about "pace" sometimes



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So did Hartley start in place of Rodgers? - that's what the LP box score seems to show.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Prince isn't fast, but she's quick"

"Tina Charles and Elena Delle Donne negate each other"



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Now THIS is Liberty basketball!! 30 first quarter points!


Not too hard when the Mystics are missing their 2 best players. If it were a fully healthy Washington team, there wouldn't be no 30 pt first quarter. It would be a Mystics lead too.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley helped create the pace and we steamrolled a team vulnerable to it. This is not a sustainable pace over the long term. However, needing two home wins desperately, this type of high-energy ball movement would have us in good shape vs. CT as well.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
So did Hartley start in place of Rodgers? - that's what the LP box score seems to show.


Yes. Think they're trying to get some early push of speed as well as have some bench scoring. Bill alluded to a possible lineup change after the last game.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

13 assists on 17 field goals. Excellent assist rate. With this type of execution we can win games. Yes D.C. is vulnerable. However, the Liberty are playing excellent team basketball today. Regardless of who they're playing this is the standard of team play that needs to be set. The ball movement is sensational.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So I get home and flip on the TV hoping to catch the second half of this game, and lo and behold, even though the game is in New York, Teddy boy has the game blacked out on the NBA Network in the DC area. I didn't waste my time even bothering to check the blackout-laden League pass.

Teddy doesn't give a shit about building a Mystics fanbase; all he cares about is trying to force a handful more subscribers to his stupid proprietary streaming network.

Well Ted, I wouldn't pay 10 cents per year for your network even if it was the only way I could watch NCIS, F1 racing, Wheeler Dealers, Mystery, and New Japan Wrestling.

And frankly, your attitude makes it less and less likely I'll spend any more money on tickets to watch your Mystics. Or your perrenial loser mismanaged Wizards either for that matter.

Maybe the WNBA should worry about how to stop driving fans away before they worry about how to add new fans and more franchises.

I've got the end of the Nationals game on now. Probably watch the golf tournament when the baseball game ends. Screw you Ted.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll take this easy win. We got lucky by having Delle Donne & Hill out. But the energy they're playing with today is so high. And Tina, Zellous & Prince will be rested for the wednesday camp game.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Go Meesseman!



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's interesting that Thibault took Meesseman out after the Liberty timeout.
She was on fire.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What a great win. I think even if the Mystics were at full strength we would have won this. Just a different energy from the team today. I never thought having Hartley starting at PG would help us get a win, but I'll take it.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 4:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 4:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sigur3 wrote:
Does Ros ever have any insight to offer other than "so-and-so is playing with a ton of energy!" and "shooting=Golden State Warriorzzz!"


Man who cares that she might be an airhead. She is the best looking eye candy in the WNBA. She can make a dead man's penis stand at attention ready for duty like a soldier. SIR! Yes SIR! Laughing



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 5:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Doesn't 15 pts on 10 shots with 1 assist and 2 turnovers suggest Hartley should be playing SG rather than PG? It's not like she's setting up her teammates a lot.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Doesn't 15 pts on 10 shots with 1 assist and 2 turnovers suggest Hartley should be playing SG rather than PG? It's not like she's setting up her teammates a lot.


Only if you believe that Hartley can do that consistently. (I don't.) Only if you'd rather see Hartley at shooting guard than Prince and Rodgers. (I wouldn't.)



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.


Any Lib fans excited about their team after this game are grasping for straws. You saw a completely discombobulated team in the Mystics. We'll play again with EDD back and after some time to adjust. Everyone but K.Thomas were playing different positions than usual, so rotations obviously sucked on both offense and defense.

If the Liberty had lost this game, it would be time for y'all to re-focus on the draft and next year.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Any wins where we get 21 assists are a good thing. Any wins where we have pace are a good thing. We've played without players all year and had major injuries affect our team for 4 of the last 5 seasons. The league doesn't stop because you have injuries. If DC had had their full complement of players NY would have won anyway playing the way they played today.

On using Hartley and Allen at the point I get it. It worked and it makes sense for pace purposes. That said, if there's no way to integrate Piph and Sugar the rest of the way, I'd expect major offseason changes. Your second and third best players need to be able to play together. If they can't, you need a new second or third best player.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hope this energy and pace carries over to Wednesday's game vs. Connecticut.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.


Any Lib fans excited about their team after this game are grasping for straws. You saw a completely discombobulated team in the Mystics. We'll play again with EDD back and after some time to adjust. Everyone but K.Thomas were playing different positions than usual, so rotations obviously sucked on both offense and defense.

If the Liberty had lost this game, it would be time for y'all to re-focus on the draft and next year.


Yes, what a crime that some of us are excited about seeing our team play well! I'm sure you never, never get excited when your team gets a big victory where your opponent has players hurt or away in Europe.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.


Any Lib fans excited about their team after this game are grasping for straws. You saw a completely discombobulated team in the Mystics. We'll play again with EDD back and after some time to adjust. Everyone but K.Thomas were playing different positions than usual, so rotations obviously sucked on both offense and defense.

If the Liberty had lost this game, it would be time for y'all to re-focus on the draft and next year.


We can simultaneously enjoy the team bouncing back after a couple of shitty games where they didn't look like they recognized their teammates, and recognize that Washington was reeling from the loss of two starters. We are capable of enjoying the moment *and* putting it in proper perspective.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.


Any Lib fans excited about their team after this game are grasping for straws. You saw a completely discombobulated team in the Mystics. We'll play again with EDD back and after some time to adjust. Everyone but K.Thomas were playing different positions than usual, so rotations obviously sucked on both offense and defense.

If the Liberty had lost this game, it would be time for y'all to re-focus on the draft and next year.


We can simultaneously enjoy the team bouncing back after a couple of shitty games where they didn't look like they recognized their teammates, and recognize that Washington was reeling from the loss of two starters. We are capable of enjoying the moment *and* putting it in proper perspective.


Absolutely right.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stokes and Hartley
play so smartly.
Hartley and Stokes
ain't no hoax.

Piph and Vaughn,
begone, begone.
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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder if Boyd was still healthy if it would have worked better. Say playing Piph 15 minutes at the point instead of 35 and having change of pace options. That whole depth thing that they seemed to be shooting for at the start of the season. We will never know but it's clear having Piph walk the ball up the court for 30-35 minutes wasn't the answer.

Interesting how Bria plays so much better as a starter than off the bench also.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Noteworthy that we've destroyed teams on the boards the last two games. We play three undersized teams on the road trip. The rebounding edge should be a big factor in those games.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.


Agreed! It's the same problem Pondexter and Carson both had. They get into this slow-down approach, and they become passive passers, not facilitators who can also shoot. It's like they think it's a binary: passer OR scorer.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.


Agreed! It's the same problem Pondexter and Carson both had. They get into this slow-down approach, and they become passive passers, not facilitators who can also shoot. It's like they think it's a binary: passer OR scorer.


Maybe their Rutgers education is at fault.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I think the pace thing is a mixed bag. I think they ran stuff that over the long term would be easy to scout and wear them down if they ran it every game. Also Hartley is somewhat faster than Piph but not a PG either. I think this would have happened either way.

Even when LA is at the point, we don't have offensive performance like we did during the win streak when she was out there.

That said, the slow pace IS a problem. Even if you could get out and run and have Sugar hit 3s in transition that would be a weapon. How it gets fixed is probably making some tough shots. Confidence gives added energy to run. The lack of confidence shows in every aspect of their offensive play right now.

And...we need Stokes to be Stokes. She's a factor in transition play at both ends when she's playing well.


you want fast pace? then Liambeer should start Hartley and Stokes and give them more minutes.

yes Hartley have been a mess just like Stokes but when we were wining they was pushin the pace running down the court and getting easy buckets, so did Zellous. Go watch the Wings game at Dallas if you DVR'd it. that was a fun game to watch, alot of easy buckets and scored 102 points, yes Dallas is a horrible defensive team but the Libs don't ever rarely score over 100 points.


Good call.



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