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Who should win MVP?
Tina Charles
15%
 15%  [ 8 ]
Elena Delle Donne
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Sylvia Fowles
49%
 49%  [ 26 ]
Brittney Griner
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Maya Moore
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Candace Parker
20%
 20%  [ 11 ]
Nneka Ogwumike
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Breanna Stewart
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
someone else
7%
 7%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 53

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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/04/17 7:02 am    ::: MVP Reply Reply with quote

Monday Poll time!



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/04/17 7:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Your final tally of MVP points:




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PostPosted: 09/04/17 7:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This has been Big Syl's year. Body of work, efficiency, everything, she has it. The only thing I don't get is the Candace love fest. She's averaging a career third worst in both points and rebounds and shoots 47% from the field. This is a player who is realizing father time is creeping in and now she actually wants to make an effort..we may see a night or two flash of greatness, but it's over! LA has been Nneka's team running on three years now. Even Voepel was on the love fest boat..please!


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PostPosted: 09/04/17 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
This has been Big Syl's year. Body of work, efficiency, everything, she has it. The only thing I don't get is the Candace love fest. She's averaging a career third worst in both points and rebounds and shoots 47% from the field. This is a player who is realizing father time is creeping in and now she actually wants to make an effort..we may see a night or two flash of greatness, but it's over! LA has been Nneka's team running on three years now. Even Voepel was on the love fest boat..please!


Nneka is not a player that could lead a team to a top 2 seed. She's the 2nd fiddle on the Sparks.


MNfan22



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PostPosted: 09/04/17 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
SDHoops wrote:
This has been Big Syl's year. Body of work, efficiency, everything, she has it. The only thing I don't get is the Candace love fest. She's averaging a career third worst in both points and rebounds and shoots 47% from the field. This is a player who is realizing father time is creeping in and now she actually wants to make an effort..we may see a night or two flash of greatness, but it's over! LA has been Nneka's team running on three years now. Even Voepel was on the love fest boat..please!


Nneka is not a player that could lead a team to a top 2 seed. She's the 2nd fiddle on the Sparks.

Apparently neither is Candace; which was how (fortunately for Parker) they ended up with Nneka.



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bballgrl



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PostPosted: 09/04/17 4:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MNfan22 wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
SDHoops wrote:
This has been Big Syl's year. Body of work, efficiency, everything, she has it. The only thing I don't get is the Candace love fest. She's averaging a career third worst in both points and rebounds and shoots 47% from the field. This is a player who is realizing father time is creeping in and now she actually wants to make an effort..we may see a night or two flash of greatness, but it's over! LA has been Nneka's team running on three years now. Even Voepel was on the love fest boat..please!


Nneka is not a player that could lead a team to a top 2 seed. She's the 2nd fiddle on the Sparks.

Apparently neither is Candace; which was how (fortunately for Parker) they ended up with Nneka.


X


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PostPosted: 09/04/17 7:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sylvia in a runaway.


cappa23MVP



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If MVP award, is actually an award given to Most Valuable Player...then hands down, it's Tina Charles. Take Tina off the Liberty and they are a lottery team. No other player is more VALUABLE to her team than Charles.

Another thing, if I hear Rebecca Lobo say Sylvia is MVP because of her points and rebounds, one more time..... such hypocritical bullshit. Last year Tina Charles led the league in both scoring and rebounding and it didn't mean ish..So don't pull that ish out this season when it fits your personal favorite.

I don't expect Charles to win MVP, and she won't.. it's just a darn shame she keeps losing to players who aren't even the most valuable player on their own team.. Shocked



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?
sigur3



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cappa23MVP wrote:
If MVP award, is actually an award given to Most Valuable Player...then hands down, it's Tina Charles. Take Tina off the Liberty and they are a lottery team. No other player is more VALUABLE to her team than Charles.

Another thing, if I hear Rebecca Lobo say Sylvia is MVP because of her points and rebounds, one more time..... such hypocritical bullshit. Last year Tina Charles led the league in both scoring and rebounding and it didn't mean ish..So don't pull that ish out this season when it fits your personal favorite.

I don't expect Charles to win MVP, and she won't.. it's just a darn shame she keeps losing to players who aren't even the most valuable player on their own team.. Shocked

Lobo talks about her efficiency along with those. Fowles has a top 10 ever PER this year, to put it in perspective.

And if you don't think Fowles was the MVP of the Lynx this year, then you didn't watch their games.

Take Folwes off the Lynx and they don't get the top seed (or a top two seed for that matter). That double bye is extraordinarily valuable; I would argue its even moreso than just making the playoffs and having to play two one-and-dones.

Arguing "Valuable" is subjective to the point where it is almost meaningless. There are a bunch of players that if you took them off their team that team would be a lottery team or would tumble down the standings. The Wings without Diggins-Smith? Lottery. The Mystics without EDD? Lottery. The Sun without Jones? Lottery. The Storm without Stewie? Lottery.

Honestly, the AP does it right and gets rid of the whole "valuable" nonsense and just chooses a "most outstanding player". That is how the award is treated when we think about past winners. We don't think "oh, Jordan was more valuable to his team than any other player was to theirs five times", we think "Jordan was the best player in the league" five times. The only time "valuable" comes up is during HAWT TAEKS!!1! from message board posters, sports radio jockeys, tv "debate" shows, and people who have some sort of agenda.



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sigur3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


This is a best of seven game tournament between a 10 player team from Earth agaiinst a 10 player team from Klingon. The loser team has their entire race vaporized and exterminated.

You are the coach of the Earth team. You don't know yet who else will be eligible for your team. This week, you only know that your first pick can be any player from the Lynx and that no other player from the Lynx will be on your team.

Which Lynx player do you chose? The future of the human race is literally at stake.
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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would draft Planette Pierson. I think she would even up the odds pretty quick. A few "hard screens" and quick elbows and the Klingon girls would be writhing in pain on the floor.


cappa23MVP



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 9:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
cappa23MVP wrote:
If MVP award, is actually an award given to Most Valuable Player...then hands down, it's Tina Charles. Take Tina off the Liberty and they are a lottery team. No other player is more VALUABLE to her team than Charles.

Another thing, if I hear Rebecca Lobo say Sylvia is MVP because of her points and rebounds, one more time..... such hypocritical bullshit. Last year Tina Charles led the league in both scoring and rebounding and it didn't mean ish..So don't pull that ish out this season when it fits your personal favorite.

I don't expect Charles to win MVP, and she won't.. it's just a darn shame she keeps losing to players who aren't even the most valuable player on their own team.. Shocked

Lobo talks about her efficiency along with those. Fowles has a top 10 ever PER this year, to put it in perspective.

And if you don't think Fowles was the MVP of the Lynx this year, then you didn't watch their games.

Take Folwes off the Lynx and they don't get the top seed (or a top two seed for that matter). That double bye is extraordinarily valuable; I would argue its even moreso than just making the playoffs and having to play two one-and-dones.

Arguing "Valuable" is subjective to the point where it is almost meaningless. There are a bunch of players that if you took them off their team that team would be a lottery team or would tumble down the standings. The Wings without Diggins-Smith? Lottery. The Mystics without EDD? Lottery. The Sun without Jones? Lottery. The Storm without Stewie? Lottery.

Honestly, the AP does it right and gets rid of the whole "valuable" nonsense and just chooses a "most outstanding player". That is how the award is treated when we think about past winners. We don't think "oh, Jordan was more valuable to his team than any other player was to theirs five times", we think "Jordan was the best player in the league" five times. The only time "valuable" comes up is during HAWT TAEKS!!1! from message board posters, sports radio jockeys, tv "debate" shows, and people who have some sort of agenda.


If Sylvia's game is worth a dollar, what's Maya's game worth, a nickel or a dime?

Again, Sylvia is not the most valuable player on her own team. Hell, Whalen is more valuable, because she's the player that gets Sylvia involved by getting her the ball where she needs it. If you doubt that, how's big Syl been playing since Whalen's been out? Not MVP like huh...

I love Syl's play, she's had a great season...but let's make sure the MVP of the league, is the MVP of her team.



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
sigur3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


This is a best of seven game tournament between a 10 player team from Earth agaiinst a 10 player team from Klingon. The loser team has their entire race vaporized and exterminated.

You are the coach of the Earth team. You don't know yet who else will be eligible for your team. This week, you only know that your first pick can be any player from the Lynx and that no other player from the Lynx will be on your team.

Which Lynx player do you chose? The future of the human race is literally at stake.


Taking this seriously, probably Maya Moore. If the future of the Earth is at stake, I'm pretty sure I'll be allowed Brittney Griner, and I think the gap between Griner and Fowles is smaller than the gap between Moore and the next best SF-with-occasional-power-moves.

Taking this not seriously, Plenette Pierson, duh. She'd certainly make an impression on the female Klingons. (To a point. As a Trekkie... let's just say she'd probably be very popular with them on the court and then get really confused off the court when they acted the same way.)



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
sigur3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


This is a best of seven game tournament between a 10 player team from Earth agaiinst a 10 player team from Klingon. The loser team has their entire race vaporized and exterminated.

You are the coach of the Earth team. You don't know yet who else will be eligible for your team. This week, you only know that your first pick can be any player from the Lynx and that no other player from the Lynx will be on your team.

Which Lynx player do you chose? The future of the human race is literally at stake.


Brunson. She's always been the key to the Lynx championships.



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PostPosted: 09/05/17 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
sigur3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


This is a best of seven game tournament between a 10 player team from Earth agaiinst a 10 player team from Klingon. The loser team has their entire race vaporized and exterminated.

You are the coach of the Earth team. You don't know yet who else will be eligible for your team. This week, you only know that your first pick can be any player from the Lynx and that no other player from the Lynx will be on your team.

Which Lynx player do you chose? The future of the human race is literally at stake.


Taking this seriously, probably Maya Moore.


The hypothetical is intended to make people think seriously about who is the most valuable player on the Lynx. (It's not serious to suggest Pierson or Brunson.)

If Maya Moore is the most valuable player on the Lynx, how can Fowles be the most valuable player in the entire league?

Maybe logic shouldn't apply to the MVP choice. Only stats? No, stats are contrary to MVP history, too.
Luuuc



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 12:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Queenie wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
sigur3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
If you were starting a team from scratch for the Klingon death tournament and your first pick was a player from the Lynx, and that would be your only player from the Lynx, whom would you choose?


I'd need more information about this tournament before making a decision.


This is a best of seven game tournament between a 10 player team from Earth agaiinst a 10 player team from Klingon. The loser team has their entire race vaporized and exterminated.

You are the coach of the Earth team. You don't know yet who else will be eligible for your team. This week, you only know that your first pick can be any player from the Lynx and that no other player from the Lynx will be on your team.

Which Lynx player do you chose? The future of the human race is literally at stake.


Taking this seriously, probably Maya Moore.


The hypothetical is intended to make people think seriously about who is the most valuable player on the Lynx. (It's not serious to suggest Pierson or Brunson.)

If Maya Moore is the most valuable player on the Lynx, how can Fowles be the most valuable player in the entire league?

Maybe logic shouldn't apply to the MVP choice. Only stats? No, stats are contrary to MVP history, too.


Are you getting confused by your own hypothetical?

FWIW I had exactly the same thought process as Queenie re. picking Maya on the basis that both her & Sylvia are the best at their respective positions - and on an all-earth first 5 that's who you want to pick - but that BG is a very capable backup for Syl at the 5 spot and could have been right in the MVP conversation had injury not caused her to miss a bunch of games. Meanwhile, the next best 3 after Maya is ...???? ... and the gap is sizeable, so due to your own rule of one player per team - a rule which is the whole basis of my reasoning, Maya faces the Klingons.
... which does not negate the fact that Fowles had an awesome 2017 regular season, was the best player on her team, and in the league.

I'm not sure what it is that's supposedly lacking in value about scoring points very efficiently, pulling down a heap of rebounds, playing great defence, and leading a team to first place on the standings. IMO this is one of the easiest years to pick the MVP.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 12:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:

If Maya Moore is the most valuable player on the Lynx, how can Fowles be the most valuable player in the entire league?

There is a huge difference between choosing a player for your hypothetical and choosing who the best (or most valuable) player is was over a season.

Maya is a former MVP and will undoubtedly be considered one of the best players of all time when her career wraps up. She is also a wing who can create her own shot. These factors weigh into the choice to be made for your team building exercise. For instance, I would almost always choose a wing or a guard to build my team around before a frontcourt player, unless that frontcourt player was so far above all others at their position (think Wilt Chamberlain over his contemporaries).

So really this team building excercise turns out to be about relative value of each position, the alternatives available at each position, and expected future performance of each player.

Thus, I would pick Maya for the hypothetical. But then again, if I were to place odds on who would win MVP next season, I would take Maya over Sylvia. So it makes sense to go with her, she is an elite player who is capable of utter dominance.

But that is next year. MVP debates have nothing to do with future results, only the results over the past season. And of you were going to have me choose a player, but have that player's performance in the tournament be limited to an amalgam of how they played duing the 2017 WNBA season and nothing more, I would choose Sylvia Fowles in a heartbeat.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 12:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cappa23MVP wrote:
Again, Sylvia is not the most valuable player on her own team. Hell, Whalen is more valuable, because she's the player that gets Sylvia involved by getting her the ball where she needs it. If you doubt that, how's big Syl been playing since Whalen's been out? Not MVP like huh...

Fowles has put up MVP caliber perfomances since Whalen has been out.

But you are reeeaaaaly reaching here with the "gets her the ball" argument. Hell, the same thing could be said about Charles. She is just as dependent upon someone passing her the ball. Under this line of reasoning no post ever could be MVP.

Fowles has been the most valuable player on the Lynx this year. She has been insanely efficient (something that Moore has not been), and has been the defensive backbone of the league's #1 defense. Not to mention she leads her team (and the whole league, for that matter) in Win Shares. Seriously, who do you think the Lynx themselves are going to vote as their MVP this season with their team awards?

The idea that for this season, and this season alone Sylvia Fowles wasn't the best player on the floor for the Lynx is silly.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 1:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay, so we pick Maya for the future Klingon game but give Sylvia the MVP for past performance -- and Plenette the BMLAK Trophy (Behaves Most Like a Klingon). (Poor Glory!)

I just don't think Fowles should be the slam dunk many here do. I'll concede she's the best shot, even though she doesn't have one outside of four feet.

Next year I'll have to change my Klingon hypo to choosing one player from the entire league, with the other nine players being chosen by ping pong balls. No more secretly relying on getting Big Bacon in round 2.
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PostPosted: 09/06/17 2:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

Fowles has put up MVP caliber perfomances since Whalen has been out.


Not really. That 8/06 loss against IND was a big dud. The 8/20 loss to NYL was a real stinker 7 pts, 5 TO. Nothing really MVP worthy after that date, and the last game of the season Fowles wasn't really needed for scoring because Maya dominated.




justintyme wrote:
She has been insanely efficient (something that Moore has not been)


She has, but why bring Maya into this, other than to point out Maya's effect in loosening up the paint for Fowles? The bulk of Fowles' shots are close in. Should we compare three point efficiencies? Maya's at 41.1%.

justintyme wrote:
defensive backbone of the league's #1 defense.


This must mean you have Fowles as the league DPOY.... or do Brunson & Moore get enough credit to make the Lynx the #1 defense?




justintyme wrote:
Seriously, who do you think the Lynx themselves are going to vote as their MVP this season with their team awards?


Hey, if the Lynx really do something like this, I guess Reeve wins COY! Team awards sound stupid. Please tell me they don't really exist.

justintyme wrote:
The idea that for this season, and this season alone Sylvia Fowles wasn't the best player on the floor for the Lynx is silly.


She put up the best efficiency stats benefiting from the players around her, but best player? Even Fowles says when Maya's on, she makes the whole team better.

I guess I don't like that you're making it a competition between players on the same team. It's a team sport. They depend on each other for success. The competition is the other teams, not each other.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 3:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 4:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
cappa23MVP wrote:
Again, Sylvia is not the most valuable player on her own team. Hell, Whalen is more valuable, because she's the player that gets Sylvia involved by getting her the ball where she needs it. If you doubt that, how's big Syl been playing since Whalen's been out? Not MVP like huh...

Fowles has put up MVP caliber perfomances since Whalen has been out.

But you are reeeaaaaly reaching here with the "gets her the ball" argument. Hell, the same thing could be said about Charles. She is just as dependent upon someone passing her the ball. Under this line of reasoning no post ever could be MVP.

Fowles has been the most valuable player on the Lynx this year. She has been insanely efficient (something that Moore has not been), and has been the defensive backbone of the league's #1 defense. Not to mention she leads her team (and the whole league, for that matter) in Win Shares. Seriously, who do you think the Lynx themselves are going to vote as their MVP this season with their team awards?

The idea that for this season, and this season alone Sylvia Fowles wasn't the best player on the floor for the Lynx is silly.


C'mon, are you really going to compare Tina Charles offensive prowess with Sylvia Fowles or any other WNBA post player? Offensively, there's Tina Charles, then there's everybody else. Sylvia has absolutely no ability to create any offense for herself...other than offensive rebound put backs. If you watch Tina play, you know she can create her own offense. It's called a necessity, because she doesn't have any teammates who can consistently get her the darn ball. Hell, it's so bad oftentimes, she leads the fastbreak, going coast-to-coast for a layup.

There is no way in the world, anyone can truthfully say Fowles has played on the same MVP level since Whalen's injury. That's just not the facts. She clearly hasn't.

Since you want to ask the Lynx players a question...how about asking them this, what player can they least afford to lose during the playoffs...lol Umm, there's your value.

Take any of these MVP candidates and put them on the Liberty, are the Libs still 22-12? Then put Tina Charles on any of these players teams...smdh



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

I guess I don't like that you're making it a competition between players on the same team. It's a team sport. They depend on each other for success. The competition is the other teams, not each other.

Of course it is, of course they do.

They only thing I was responding to was the idea that Fowles wasn't the MVP of her own team. And yes, sports teams DO vote for their team MVP and other team awards at the end of the season. Not league awards. Team ones. As in who they think their MVP was...

But I tire of the whole "remove x player from team and..." arguments. It is silly nonsense devoid of all meaning and is only good for trying to make weak arguments for why someone's favorite player should be MVP (or why someone's less liked player shouldn't be) when who the best player in the league was over the season is clear.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.

And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard.

See how silly these "valuable" arguments are? There is a reason MVP has just come to mean Most Outstanding in the eyes of most fans/players/voters. "Value" debates are for talk radio, message board homers, and idiotic TV shows that "embrace the debate" by yelling hot takes at one another...



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.

And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard.


No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs...


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.

And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard.


No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs...

So? They also have Grey, Sims, Williams (who is streaky but can take over offensively), Lavender, and Nneka. That is more offensive firepower than most teams have.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.

And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard.


No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs...

So? They also have Grey, Sims, Williams (who is streaky but can take over offensively), Lavender, and Nneka. That is more offensive firepower than most teams have.


And they would all be lost without Parker. Riquina Williams and Odyssey Sims chucking shots is not a recipe for good offense.


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 8:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.


This, yes, all of this.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 9:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.

The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.

Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 9:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.

The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.

Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made.


Brittney Griner


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.

The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.

Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made.


Brittney Griner

No, she wasn't. She missed a huge portion of the season and the number #1 thing is being able to take the floor.

Griner's stats: 8th in points scored, 17th (!!) in total rebounds, 3rd in total blocks, and a fg% 8% lower than Fowles (57% v. 65%).

Griner was also 8th in Win Shares, versus Fowles at #1

Not to mention being thoroughly dominated by Fowles in every single head-to-head matchup between the two, despite Fowles being doubled-teamed and the Lynx allowing Fowles to guard Griner alone.

There is no reasonable argument to be made that Griner had a better season than Fowles. Had she played the entire season it could have been a great battle, but because of her injury it wasn't even close.

ETA: Notice how we are able to use actual empirical evidence in this debate, vesus running unprovable hypotheticals in our own minds to conclude who has the most "value" to their team? This demonstrates perfectly the whole problem with that standard and why it is so meaningless.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.


With this you need that crystal ball action. Only 7 actual good players? That's all Agler typically uses in a tight game. Don't forget that the only injuries the Sparks have had are to players you probably don't consider good. He kind of did a Curt Miller stumble into a better player when Essence Carson went down.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"

By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.

Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.


With this you need that crystal ball action. Only 7 actual good players? That's all Agler typically uses in a tight game. Don't forget that the only injuries the Sparks have had are to players you probably don't consider good. He kind of did a Curt Miller stumble into a better player when Essence Carson went down.


I don't need a crystal ball to see how much Sparks struggle when Parker is either playing badly, or resting on the bench.


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does she play badly a lot? Does she need a lot of rest?


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cappa23MVP wrote:
Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"

By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.

Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers.


The sugar drips
From her sweet lips;
The sugar is mine!
You bet your life
A sweet girl like this
Can be hard to find!

She picks you up!
She makes you feel nice!
She makes you think twice
About paradise
And everything nice
Like sugar and spice;
She's sugar to me!!!



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Beard, Gray and Ogwumike all with a better net plus/minus than Parker this season, by the way.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cappa23MVP wrote:
Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"

By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.

Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers.

Rolling Eyes

The stats tell the whole story. And yes, the stats from the full season. Show me with empirical evidence the case for any other player having had a better full year than Fowles.

As for an authority on the meaning of arguments, don't look to me as I am not the one who determined these things. Subjective arguments are inferior to objective ones. That is a simple reality that has been around since at least Aristotle (and really, long before).

As for who your favorite player is, that is irrelevant. The whole point is that a case can be made for whomever you like when we start discussing a player's hypothetical "value" to their team in relation to one another. "Value" is a moving standard that can be defined in so many different ways that the argument has no real parameters. And without parameters, it can have no set meaning. That is why I called it meaningless. And it is.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 11:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.

So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She not going to win it and doesn't deserve to win it, but Diggins-Smith is as deserving as half the people included in this poll. Take her off the Wings and they finish behind San Antonio.

Charles, Fowles or Griner strike me as the only serious candidates.


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players.


With this you need that crystal ball action. Only 7 actual good players? That's all Agler typically uses in a tight game. Don't forget that the only injuries the Sparks have had are to players you probably don't consider good. He kind of did a Curt Miller stumble into a better player when Essence Carson went down.


I don't need a crystal ball to see how much Sparks struggle when Parker is either playing badly, or resting on the bench.


https://lynxdata.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/2017netplusminusbyteam.pdf


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.

So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season.


This is the bs that gets tossed around when it conveniently fits someone's argument. I don't want to hear about, Whalen, Brunson and Augustus being shadows of themselves.

Not when Tina Charles is playing with players that in their prime, don't compare with the level Whalen, Augustus and Brunson are right now. Really, would you take Vaughan over Brunson? Hartley over Whalen? Zellous over Augustus? Prince over Moore? Rodgers over Montgomery? Stokes over Howard? Allen over Perkins. Zaui B over a empty chair?

Charles over Fowles? Every day of the week and 3x's on Sunday.

Sylvia Fowles the Most Valuable player... Shocked this isn't as black and white...not with Tina Charles adding all these shades of gray to the picture.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Whatever you think of Parker's value to the Sparks, +/- is a bad stat



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cappa23MVP wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games.


I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.

Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.

So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season.


This is the bs that gets tossed around when it conveniently fits someone's argument. I don't want to hear about, Whalen, Brunson and Augustus being shadows of themselves.

Not when Tina Charles is playing with players that in their prime, don't compare with the level Whalen, Augustus and Brunson are right now. Really, would you take Vaughan over Brunson? Hartley over Whalen? Zellous over Augustus? Prince over Moore? Rodgers over Montgomery? Stokes over Howard? Allen over Perkins. Zaui B over a empty chair?

Charles over Fowles? Every day of the week and 3x's on Sunday.

Sylvia Fowles the Most Valuable player... Shocked this isn't as black and white...not with Tina Charles adding all these shades of gray to the picture.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. None of this has anything at all to do with the statement I was replying to, note that neither Tina Charles nor the Liberty were even in the discussion.

In the conversation that actually was happening, the relative abilities of Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson as compared to previous years matters greatly. Since, you know, that was the claim being made.

As for the Charles thing, show me the damn stats that show her having performed better (or, hell, even close to) Fowles this season and then you can "gray it up" all you want. I have yet to see an actual metric to support your case.



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

As for the Charles thing, show me the damn stats that show her having performed better (or, hell, even close to) Fowles this season and then you can "gray it up" all you want. I have yet to see an actual metric to support your case.


If there is any award that strikes me as not susceptible to simple mathematical modeling, it's MVP. Unless you want to reduce it to simply some pre-determined combination of PPG, RPG, APG and team standing. Seems to me that simply measures the statistical leader, any similarity to "Most Valuable Player" being entirely coincidental.

MVP strikes me as a totally subjective judgment.

(As an example, what are you going to do with someone who leads their team in scoring with 15 ppg on a team that averages 60ppg, vs another player who averages 17 ppg and is second in scoring on a team that averages 85 ppg? Does your "metric" dictate that player 2 deserves MVP over player 1?)


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 3:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sylvia Fowles 11.4 FGA
Maya Moore 13.8 FGA

Do Reeve and Whalen think that Fowles is the most valuable player on the Lynx?


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PostPosted: 09/06/17 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Sylvia Fowles 11.4 FGA
Maya Moore 13.8 FGA

Do Reeve and Whalen think that Fowles is the most valuable player on the Lynx?


Those numbers barely changed after Whalen went out (Maya went up slightly and Fowles went down slightly) so it's not her.

FGA/game is a terrible way to determine value, unless you really believe Jonquel Jones is the 4th most valuable player on the Sun.



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